Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

I don't normally have any headsails aboard but my furling genoa. Like most 
cruising boats, it gets used rolled all the way out, hardly any of it out, and 
everything in between.
The boat is obviously faster with the racing sails that don't have a big round 
obstacle as a luff assuming I have the crew to use them, but if I were to race 
with the furling genoa it never occurred to me that I wouldn't roll it in or 
out as needed.


Joe Della Barba
Coquina

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

David,
Just by chance I was looking today at the website of a local professional 
photographer and discovered this photo of my boat from 2020 -- my covid 
isolating solo sailing year.  This photo shows my 135 genoa reefed much farther 
than usual, but it was a very blowy day and I was solo.  Can't see sail details 
well, but it looks like a decent shape, even furled that much.

https://toddandbradreed.com/sail-boats/brads-day-239-of-366-august-26-2020

Jeff Laman
81 C
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 4:48 PM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

Thanks for all the input.  I have 110 and 145 laminate genoas.  In the past, 
with >2 crew, I used the 145 until Fall when the winds were strong, but as I 
have done more and more single-handed racing (non-spinnaker) in the last few 
years, I found the 110 was much easier to handle upwind, so I am currently 
rated for that sail (133 vs. 121 for the larger).  I agree that speed is not 
significantly compromised upwind (much to my surprise) when it blows 8-10 or 
more.  I have done quite well racing with the 110.  It is downwind where I was 
wondering if the larger sail would have advantages.  If increased speed 
downwind was significant, it might overcome the disadvantage of the sail shape 
and wind disruption of partial furling upwind.  Certainly wing on wing, I would 
think the larger sail would be significantly faster, but haven’t tested that 
yet.  When I get a chance, I will try with the full sail and then partially 
furl and see if I can detect a speed difference.  As a scientist, I know that 
data rules, so I need to get some, unless someone has done this already.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:4073BE72-4704-4EA7-8EBA-B73B833F502B]

On Sep 12, 2022, at 4:18 PM, ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

When I was still racing, I used non-furling sails. I started with a 152; then 
switched to a 135, and finally to a 110. Each switch gave me a higher PHRF 
rating. Switching to a 135 gave me six seconds more, and the 110 gave me an 
additional three seconds. Going from a 135 to a 110 cost me very little speed, 
but I pointed higher, more than making up for the slightly lower speed. More 
often than not I was first to the windward mark. Off the wind I used a 
spinnaker, so I didn't need a larger jib.

In answer to your question, I have a furling genoa with foam sandwiched between 
sailcloth layers (near the luff). I can sail with the furled genoa and still 
have good sail shape. It doesn't damage the sail, but furling on the wind in 
heavy air is difficult. I can use a winch, but I have to be careful not to get 
overrides. If you don't use a spinnaker, try using the furled genoa and 
non-furled genoa, depending on wind conditions. If you have a 110, try racing 
with that and get your PHRF rating increased. Another advantage of the smaller 
sail is it's easier for the crew to get it all the 
way.in<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fway.in%2F=05%7C01%7C%7C94a36a875dab48d80b5708da9500284e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637986125153185040%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C=MYuQYdBxnmwNgILobvDLaJtqR02GYJWDdYyX4g%2FKMe8%3D=0>
 much faster. Let us know how these suggestions work.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR



On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:12 AM David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class and 
he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  He 
said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does not 
have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the value/feasibility of 
this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It certainly would be easier 
than putting on my smaller sail when winds are questionable.  I worry about not 
only sail shape, but when partially furled, the furler and genoa sheet are 
fighting each other, which might not be a good thing for the furler.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Thanks for all the input.  I have 110 and 145 laminate genoas.  In the past, 
with >2 crew, I used the 145 until Fall when the winds were strong, but as I 
have done more and more single-handed racing (non-spinnaker) in the last few 
years, I found the 110 was much easier to handle upwind, so I am currently 
rated for that sail (133 vs. 121 for the larger).  I agree that speed is not 
significantly compromised upwind (much to my surprise) when it blows 8-10 or 
more.  I have done quite well racing with the 110.  It is downwind where I was 
wondering if the larger sail would have advantages.  If increased speed 
downwind was significant, it might overcome the disadvantage of the sail shape 
and wind disruption of partial furling upwind.  Certainly wing on wing, I would 
think the larger sail would be significantly faster, but haven’t tested that 
yet.  When I get a chance, I will try with the full sail and then partially 
furl and see if I can detect a speed difference.  As a scientist, I know that 
data rules, so I need to get some, unless someone has done this already.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Sep 12, 2022, at 4:18 PM, ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> When I was still racing, I used non-furling sails. I started with a 152; then 
> switched to a 135, and finally to a 110. Each switch gave me a higher PHRF 
> rating. Switching to a 135 gave me six seconds more, and the 110 gave me an 
> additional three seconds. Going from a 135 to a 110 cost me very little 
> speed, but I pointed higher, more than making up for the slightly lower 
> speed. More often than not I was first to the windward mark. Off the wind I 
> used a spinnaker, so I didn't need a larger jib.
> 
> In answer to your question, I have a furling genoa with foam sandwiched 
> between sailcloth layers (near the luff). I can sail with the furled genoa 
> and still have good sail shape. It doesn't damage the sail, but furling on 
> the wind in heavy air is difficult. I can use a winch, but I have to be 
> careful not to get overrides. If you don't use a spinnaker, try using the 
> furled genoa and non-furled genoa, depending on wind conditions. If you have 
> a 110, try racing with that and get your PHRF rating increased. Another 
> advantage of the smaller sail is it's easier for the crew to get it all the 
> way.in  much faster. Let us know how these suggestions work.
> 
> Alan Bergen
> 35 Mk III Thirsty
> Rose City YC
> Portland, OR
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:12 AM David Knecht via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class 
> and he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  
> He said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
> upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
> overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does 
> not have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the 
> value/feasibility of this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It 
> certainly would be easier than putting on my smaller sail when winds are 
> questionable.  I worry about not only sail shape, but when partially furled, 
> the furler and genoa sheet are fighting each other, which might not be a good 
> thing for the furler.  Dave
>   
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List]

When I was still racing, I used non-furling sails. I started with a 152;
then switched to a 135, and finally to a 110. Each switch gave me a higher
PHRF rating. Switching to a 135 gave me six seconds more, and the 110 gave
me an additional three seconds. Going from a 135 to a 110 cost me very
little speed, but I pointed higher, more than making up for the slightly
lower speed. More often than not I was first to the windward mark. Off the
wind I used a spinnaker, so I didn't need a larger jib.

In answer to your question, I have a furling genoa with foam sandwiched
between sailcloth layers (near the luff). I can sail with the furled genoa
and still have good sail shape. It doesn't damage the sail, but furling on
the wind in heavy air is difficult. I can use a winch, but I have to be
careful not to get overrides. If you don't use a spinnaker, try using the
furled genoa and non-furled genoa, depending on wind conditions. If you
have a 110, try racing with that and get your PHRF rating increased.
Another advantage of the smaller sail is it's easier for the crew to get it
all the way.in much faster. Let us know how these suggestions work.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR



On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:12 AM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF
> class and he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in
> heavier air.  He said he had recently started partially roller furling his
> large genoa for upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was
> strong enough to overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my
> larger genoa does not have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on
> the value/feasibility of this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?
> It certainly would be easier than putting on my smaller sail when winds are
> questionable.  I worry about not only sail shape, but when partially
> furled, the furler and genoa sheet are fighting each other, which might not
> be a good thing for the furler.  Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
>

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Furl the genny from 150% to say 130% on the very last bit of the downwind
leg just before the rounding. Put dark tape about 6 inches long vertically
upward from the foot that corresponds to 130% or 110% headsail when furled.
I found there was no real benefit to moving the roller cars to adjust the
sheet lead points.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 11:12 AM David Knecht via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF
> class and he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in
> heavier air.  He said he had recently started partially roller furling his
> large genoa for upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was
> strong enough to overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my
> larger genoa does not have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on
> the value/feasibility of this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?
> It certainly would be easier than putting on my smaller sail when winds are
> questionable.  I worry about not only sail shape, but when partially
> furled, the furler and genoa sheet are fighting each other, which might not
> be a good thing for the furler.  Dave
>
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
>
>
> --
Sent from Gmail Mobile

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[John McCrea via CnC-List]

David,

 

On my Doyle Genoa I have three blue dots at the foot to allow me to reef it 
down to smaller sizes. It was designed that way by the sailmaker and works 
quite well. I am adding adjustable genoa cars from Garhauer so can move the 
genoa leads. 

 

John McCrea

Talisman

1979 36-1

Mystic, CT

 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:12 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing

 

I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class and 
he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  He 
said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does not 
have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the value/feasibility of 
this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It certainly would be easier 
than putting on my smaller sail when winds are questionable.  I worry about not 
only sail shape, but when partially furled, the furler and genoa sheet are 
fighting each other, which might not be a good thing for the furler.  Dave

  

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT




 

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[John Irvin via CnC-List]

I would move the leads forward to help sail shape.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 12, 2022, at 11:11 AM, Matthew via CnC-List  
wrote:


Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:40 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike ; Jeffrey A. Laman 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

David,
Reefing the genoa on a furler is routine where I sail and race.  I reef my main 
first, then reef my 135 second.  Typically when wind is about 15mph+ I keep 
about 5 winds on the furler, making the headsail about 110.  My luff is foam 
and will keep the sail shape decent up to about the 5 winds.  Another boat has 
a UK sail with very large foam tubes that maintains shape pretty well when 
furled.  After 5 winds, the shape gets bad fast on my foam luffed genoa.  The 
genoa needs to be capable of being reefed, but I don't know of anyone I sail 
with who has a head sail that isn't made to handle reefing.  Have a sail maker 
look at it if you aren't sure.  As for the furler line "fighting" the sheets, 
not really.  Lock the furler in and done.  Sheet the headsail as you normally 
would.  Challenge might be moving your cars forward, then back again as you 
furl and unfurl.  Also, unfurling is easy.  Furling back on is not.  But, 
typically our races are to windward start, then a reach, so start with furled, 
then let it go around the mark and finish the race.  Not ideal, but it works 
better than being overpowered.  A purist in the fleet scoffs at furlers and 
says, "You never have the right sail with a furler." Yea, ok, but I sail solo a 
lot too, so that's where I am.

Jeff Laman
81 C
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:25 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Hoyt, Mike mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing


Hi David



First I find it unusual to hear of a J27 with a furling genoa.  We had a J27 
that came that way and it was the only one I knew of.  Our furling genoa was 
awful to use when racing anyway so we would  ignore the furler and tack our 
racing sails to the deck below the drum.  Eventually sold the luff foil, 
furling system and the furling genoa and replaced with a tuff luff



J27 upwind if too windy for 150 should use a blade as it is much faster.  
Downwind most 27s fly a spinnaker anyway.



On our 33 we will sometimes be overpowered upwind flying our non furling 140 or 
155 genoas for the added boost downwind if racing non spin.  If it is too windy 
for our 140 we drop to our 103%% head sail.



Your genoa would have to be designed and built to sail partially furled for it 
to have any sort of performance up wind.  I know some have foam in the luff 
area for this.  Regardless I would think the loss of upwind performance would 
be a pretty nasty price to pay for more horsepower down wind …



Those are my thoughts



Regards



Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS



From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: September 12, 2022 11:12 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing



I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class and 
he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  He 
said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does not 
have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the value/feasibility of 
this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It certainly would be easier 
than putting on my smaller sail when winds are questionable.  I worry about not 
only sail shape, but when partially furled, the furler and genoa sheet are 
fighting each other, which might not be a good thing for the furler.  Dave



S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT

[image001.png]

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

 

From: Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:40 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike ; Jeffrey A. Laman

Subject: Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

 

David, 

Reefing the genoa on a furler is routine where I sail and race.  I reef my
main first, then reef my 135 second.  Typically when wind is about 15mph+ I
keep about 5 winds on the furler, making the headsail about 110.  My luff is
foam and will keep the sail shape decent up to about the 5 winds.  Another
boat has a UK sail with very large foam tubes that maintains shape pretty
well when furled.  After 5 winds, the shape gets bad fast on my foam luffed
genoa.  The genoa needs to be capable of being reefed, but I don't know of
anyone I sail with who has a head sail that isn't made to handle reefing.
Have a sail maker look at it if you aren't sure.  As for the furler line
"fighting" the sheets, not really.  Lock the furler in and done.  Sheet the
headsail as you normally would.  Challenge might be moving your cars
forward, then back again as you furl and unfurl.  Also, unfurling is easy.
Furling back on is not.  But, typically our races are to windward start,
then a reach, so start with furled, then let it go around the mark and
finish the race.  Not ideal, but it works better than being overpowered.  A
purist in the fleet scoffs at furlers and says, "You never have the right
sail with a furler." Yea, ok, but I sail solo a lot too, so that's where I
am.

 

Jeff Laman

81 C

Harmony

Ludington, MI

  _  

From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:25 AM
To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Hoyt, Mike mailto:mike.h...@impgroup.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing 

 

Hi David

 

First I find it unusual to hear of a J27 with a furling genoa.  We had a J27
that came that way and it was the only one I knew of.  Our furling genoa was
awful to use when racing anyway so we would  ignore the furler and tack our
racing sails to the deck below the drum.  Eventually sold the luff foil,
furling system and the furling genoa and replaced with a tuff luff

 

J27 upwind if too windy for 150 should use a blade as it is much faster.
Downwind most 27s fly a spinnaker anyway.

 

On our 33 we will sometimes be overpowered upwind flying our non furling 140
or 155 genoas for the added boost downwind if racing non spin.  If it is too
windy for our 140 we drop to our 103%% head sail. 

 

Your genoa would have to be designed and built to sail partially furled for
it to have any sort of performance up wind.  I know some have foam in the
luff area for this.  Regardless I would think the loss of upwind performance
would be a pretty nasty price to pay for more horsepower down wind .

 

Those are my thoughts

 

Regards

 

Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: September 12, 2022 11:12 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: David Knecht mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing

 

I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class
and he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.
He said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does
not have "reef points" .  What are the groups thoughts on the
value/feasibility of this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It
certainly would be easier than putting on my smaller sail when winds are
questionable.  I worry about not only sail shape, but when partially furled,
the furler and genoa sheet are fighting each other, which might not be a
good thing for the furler.  Dave

  

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT




 

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

The sail and the furler should be fine (as someone already said, a furling 
genoa normally is designed to be partially furled).

The shape of the sail might be an issue. Try it furled a bit and check for the 
shape. If it is baggy in the middle, you know that it is not going to work 
well. Well designed sail should maintain, “generally”, its shape, even when 
partially furled.

I don’t race, but I use the partially furled genoa all the time.

One of the performance issues is that a furled sail on the leading edge fouls 
the air steaming along the sail. For normal sailing, it is not a big deal; for 
racing, it might be (e.g., you won’t be able to point as high).

Marek
1994 C270 Legato
Ottawa, ON

From: David Knecht via CnC-List
Sent: September 12, 2022 11:12
To: CnC CnC discussion list
Cc: David Knecht
Subject: Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing

I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class and 
he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  He 
said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does not 
have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the value/feasibility of 
this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It certainly would be easier 
than putting on my smaller sail when winds are questionable.  I worry about not 
only sail shape, but when partially furled, the furler and genoa sheet are 
fighting each other, which might not be a good thing for the furler.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:image001.png@01D8C69E.EACAC7C0]

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Matthew via CnC-List]

In my case, the genoa doesn’t look right or perform well partially unfurled.  
In addition, the forestay bends in a way I don’t like -- the force does not 
appear to be evenly distributed.

 

Matt Wolford

C 42 Custom 

 

From: David Knecht via CnC-List  
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:12 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing

 

I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class and 
he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  He 
said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does not 
have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the value/feasibility of 
this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It certainly would be easier 
than putting on my smaller sail when winds are questionable.  I worry about not 
only sail shape, but when partially furled, the furler and genoa sheet are 
fighting each other, which might not be a good thing for the furler.  Dave

  

S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT




 

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

We raced upwind with a foot or so of genoa furled several times.  The furler 
line once secured, will be fine.  FWIW, I had mine secured to a camcleat 
without trouble but Harken prefers it to be cleated and provide a 4" cleat with 
their furler kits.

Had to look up the J27 on Sailboatdata.  Comparing your 12000# C 34+ to a 
3800# J27 may not produce the same results.  Your boats needs much more sail 
power to get it moving as it weighes three times the J-boat.  But I would 
suggest you try the technique and don't overthink it so much.  See how the sail 
shape changes by different amounts of furling.  Our racing sail is a 140% #2 
and still looked good, partially rolled.  This made tacking quicker and easier 
as the sheets and LP are shorter.  One drawback was losing the telltales but in 
higher winds, you don't really need them anyway.  My two cents.

Chuck S









> On 09/12/2022 10:12 AM David Knecht via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF 
> class and he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier 
> air.  He said he had recently started partially roller furling his large 
> genoa for upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong 
> enough to overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger 
> genoa does not have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the 
> value/feasibility of this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It 
> certainly would be easier than putting on my smaller sail when winds are 
> questionable.  I worry about not only sail shape, but when partially furled, 
> the furler and genoa sheet are fighting each other, which might not be a good 
> thing for the furler.  Dave
>   
> S/V Aries
> 1990 C 34+
> New London, CT
> 
> 
> 

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Wyatt via CnC-List]

Not good for the sail...reinforcement is around the edges (leech/luff/foot)
not in the middle.

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 10:30 AM Joel Aronson via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> FWIW My first move is to reef the main upwind, even with a foam luff
> gennie.
>
> Joel
>
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 10:25 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi David
>>
>>
>>
>> First I find it unusual to hear of a J27 with a furling genoa.  We had a
>> J27 that came that way and it was the only one I knew of.  Our furling
>> genoa was awful to use when racing anyway so we would  ignore the furler
>> and tack our racing sails to the deck below the drum.  Eventually sold the
>> luff foil, furling system and the furling genoa and replaced with a tuff
>> luff
>>
>>
>>
>> J27 upwind if too windy for 150 should use a blade as it is much faster.
>> Downwind most 27s fly a spinnaker anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>> On our 33 we will sometimes be overpowered upwind flying our non furling
>> 140 or 155 genoas for the added boost downwind if racing non spin.  If it
>> is too windy for our 140 we drop to our 103%% head sail.
>>
>>
>>
>> Your genoa would have to be designed and built to sail partially furled
>> for it to have any sort of performance up wind.  I know some have foam in
>> the luff area for this.  Regardless I would think the loss of upwind
>> performance would be a pretty nasty price to pay for more horsepower down
>> wind …
>>
>>
>>
>> Those are my thoughts
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards
>>
>>
>>
>> Mike Hoyt
>>
>> Persistence
>>
>> Halifax, NS
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* David Knecht via CnC-List 
>> *Sent:* September 12, 2022 11:12 AM
>> *To:* CnC CnC discussion list 
>> *Cc:* David Knecht 
>> *Subject:* Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing
>>
>>
>>
>> I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF
>> class and he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in
>> heavier air.  He said he had recently started partially roller furling his
>> large genoa for upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was
>> strong enough to overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my
>> larger genoa does not have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on
>> the value/feasibility of this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?
>> It certainly would be easier than putting on my smaller sail when winds are
>> questionable.  I worry about not only sail shape, but when partially
>> furled, the furler and genoa sheet are fighting each other, which might not
>> be a good thing for the furler.  Dave
>>
>>
>>
>> S/V Aries
>>
>> 1990 C 34+
>>
>> New London, CT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Joel
>
>

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Jeffrey A. Laman via CnC-List]

David,
Reefing the genoa on a furler is routine where I sail and race.  I reef my main 
first, then reef my 135 second.  Typically when wind is about 15mph+ I keep 
about 5 winds on the furler, making the headsail about 110.  My luff is foam 
and will keep the sail shape decent up to about the 5 winds.  Another boat has 
a UK sail with very large foam tubes that maintains shape pretty well when 
furled.  After 5 winds, the shape gets bad fast on my foam luffed genoa.  The 
genoa needs to be capable of being reefed, but I don't know of anyone I sail 
with who has a head sail that isn't made to handle reefing.  Have a sail maker 
look at it if you aren't sure.  As for the furler line "fighting" the sheets, 
not really.  Lock the furler in and done.  Sheet the headsail as you normally 
would.  Challenge might be moving your cars forward, then back again as you 
furl and unfurl.  Also, unfurling is easy.  Furling back on is not.  But, 
typically our races are to windward start, then a reach, so start with furled, 
then let it go around the mark and finish the race.  Not ideal, but it works 
better than being overpowered.  A purist in the fleet scoffs at furlers and 
says, "You never have the right sail with a furler." Yea, ok, but I sail solo a 
lot too, so that's where I am.

Jeff Laman
81 C
Harmony
Ludington, MI

From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 10:25 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing


Hi David



First I find it unusual to hear of a J27 with a furling genoa.  We had a J27 
that came that way and it was the only one I knew of.  Our furling genoa was 
awful to use when racing anyway so we would  ignore the furler and tack our 
racing sails to the deck below the drum.  Eventually sold the luff foil, 
furling system and the furling genoa and replaced with a tuff luff



J27 upwind if too windy for 150 should use a blade as it is much faster.  
Downwind most 27s fly a spinnaker anyway.



On our 33 we will sometimes be overpowered upwind flying our non furling 140 or 
155 genoas for the added boost downwind if racing non spin.  If it is too windy 
for our 140 we drop to our 103%% head sail.



Your genoa would have to be designed and built to sail partially furled for it 
to have any sort of performance up wind.  I know some have foam in the luff 
area for this.  Regardless I would think the loss of upwind performance would 
be a pretty nasty price to pay for more horsepower down wind …



Those are my thoughts



Regards



Mike Hoyt

Persistence

Halifax, NS



From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: September 12, 2022 11:12 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing



I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class and 
he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  He 
said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does not 
have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the value/feasibility of 
this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It certainly would be easier 
than putting on my smaller sail when winds are questionable.  I worry about not 
only sail shape, but when partially furled, the furler and genoa sheet are 
fighting each other, which might not be a good thing for the furler.  Dave



S/V Aries

1990 C 34+

New London, CT

[cid:image001.png@01D8C69A.4F2D4620]

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

FWIW My first move is to reef the main upwind, even with a foam luff gennie.

Joel

On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 10:25 AM Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi David
>
>
>
> First I find it unusual to hear of a J27 with a furling genoa.  We had a
> J27 that came that way and it was the only one I knew of.  Our furling
> genoa was awful to use when racing anyway so we would  ignore the furler
> and tack our racing sails to the deck below the drum.  Eventually sold the
> luff foil, furling system and the furling genoa and replaced with a tuff
> luff
>
>
>
> J27 upwind if too windy for 150 should use a blade as it is much faster.
> Downwind most 27s fly a spinnaker anyway.
>
>
>
> On our 33 we will sometimes be overpowered upwind flying our non furling
> 140 or 155 genoas for the added boost downwind if racing non spin.  If it
> is too windy for our 140 we drop to our 103%% head sail.
>
>
>
> Your genoa would have to be designed and built to sail partially furled
> for it to have any sort of performance up wind.  I know some have foam in
> the luff area for this.  Regardless I would think the loss of upwind
> performance would be a pretty nasty price to pay for more horsepower down
> wind …
>
>
>
> Those are my thoughts
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Mike Hoyt
>
> Persistence
>
> Halifax, NS
>
>
>
> *From:* David Knecht via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* September 12, 2022 11:12 AM
> *To:* CnC CnC discussion list 
> *Cc:* David Knecht 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing
>
>
>
> I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF
> class and he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in
> heavier air.  He said he had recently started partially roller furling his
> large genoa for upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was
> strong enough to overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my
> larger genoa does not have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on
> the value/feasibility of this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?
> It certainly would be easier than putting on my smaller sail when winds are
> questionable.  I worry about not only sail shape, but when partially
> furled, the furler and genoa sheet are fighting each other, which might not
> be a good thing for the furler.  Dave
>
>
>
> S/V Aries
>
> 1990 C 34+
>
> New London, CT
>
>
>
>


-- 
Joel

Stus-List Re: Partially furling the genoa when racing

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Hi David

First I find it unusual to hear of a J27 with a furling genoa.  We had a J27 
that came that way and it was the only one I knew of.  Our furling genoa was 
awful to use when racing anyway so we would  ignore the furler and tack our 
racing sails to the deck below the drum.  Eventually sold the luff foil, 
furling system and the furling genoa and replaced with a tuff luff

J27 upwind if too windy for 150 should use a blade as it is much faster.  
Downwind most 27s fly a spinnaker anyway.

On our 33 we will sometimes be overpowered upwind flying our non furling 140 or 
155 genoas for the added boost downwind if racing non spin.  If it is too windy 
for our 140 we drop to our 103%% head sail.

Your genoa would have to be designed and built to sail partially furled for it 
to have any sort of performance up wind.  I know some have foam in the luff 
area for this.  Regardless I would think the loss of upwind performance would 
be a pretty nasty price to pay for more horsepower down wind …

Those are my thoughts

Regards

Mike Hoyt
Persistence
Halifax, NS

From: David Knecht via CnC-List 
Sent: September 12, 2022 11:12 AM
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Cc: David Knecht 
Subject: Stus-List Partially furling the genoa when racing

I was talking to the skipper of a J27 who nearly always wins our PHRF class and 
he was telling me that while he wins a lot, he struggles in heavier air.  He 
said he had recently started partially roller furling his large genoa for 
upwind legs and then unfurling downwind when the wind was strong enough to 
overpower him.  I have never considered doing that and my larger genoa does not 
have “reef points” .  What are the groups thoughts on the value/feasibility of 
this?   Any reason it would be bad for the sail?  It certainly would be easier 
than putting on my smaller sail when winds are questionable.  I worry about not 
only sail shape, but when partially furled, the furler and genoa sheet are 
fighting each other, which might not be a good thing for the furler.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT

[cid:image001.png@01D8C69A.4F2D4620]