Stus-List Re: Vang repair
Glad you are back in service.Sent from my Galaxy Original message From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List Date: 2022-11-05 12:00 p.m. (GMT-04:00) To: 'Stus-List' Cc: wolf...@erie.net Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair Update on vang repair:The aluminum rivnuts arrived yesterday. I decided to purchase a tool to do it "right," but discovered that the tool won't work because the track space is too small for access. Instead, I used a method from Youtube which worked fine. Installation of the rivnuts was relatively easy and straightforward. I messed one of them up (overtightened and stripped the rivnut), but I removed it easily and replaced it. The holes I drilled for the rivnuts were not perfectly aligned (due to either the original installation or the damage caused by the jibing incident), but there was enough play to install all the new bolts.Project done; everything looks good. Thanks for excellent suggestion!Matt-Original Message-From: Jeff Nelson via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:11 AMTo: cnc-list@cnc-list.comCc: Jeff Nelson Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repairHow to install rivnut without a tool:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6H6wr7fJYo--Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C 30 - 549 Armdale Y.C.
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
Update on vang repair: The aluminum rivnuts arrived yesterday. I decided to purchase a tool to do it "right," but discovered that the tool won't work because the track space is too small for access. Instead, I used a method from Youtube which worked fine. Installation of the rivnuts was relatively easy and straightforward. I messed one of them up (overtightened and stripped the rivnut), but I removed it easily and replaced it. The holes I drilled for the rivnuts were not perfectly aligned (due to either the original installation or the damage caused by the jibing incident), but there was enough play to install all the new bolts. Project done; everything looks good. Thanks for excellent suggestion! Matt -Original Message- From: Jeff Nelson via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 11:11 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Jeff Nelson Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair How to install rivnut without a tool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6H6wr7fJYo -- Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C 30 - 549 Armdale Y.C.
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
If the grip range is too low (or the thickness of the wall too big), the threaded hole will be deformed. This will make it impossible to screw the bolt. If you have problems driving the bolt in, drill the RivNut out and use one with a bigger grip range. I found that the RivNuts that come by default with the tool, are not long enough. You said that you ordered extra ones, which is a good sign. Btw. I used them to attach a clutch to the mast for my jib halyard. It is working well for two seasons. Marek Sent from my Android-based can on a string Original message From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List Date: 2022-10-31 22:34 (GMT-05:00) To: 'Stus-List' Cc: wolf...@erie.net Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair Marek: Once again, I appreciate your insight. Today I ordered some RivNuts and a tool. I was concerned about the tight tolerance of the grip range, so I did additional research. I found aluminum RivNuts with a broader grip range, so I decided to order them. In addition, it occurred to me that having aluminum on aluminum was probably better. The replacement screws will be stainless, but I can coat them with Tef Gel or something. Better to not have dissimilar metals working against each other at the RivNut interface. I think this will be a good solution. Thanks to you and the other listers who provided advice. I’ll keep you posted. Matt From: Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 9:34 PM To: Stus-List Cc: Marek Dziedzic Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair Be very careful about the grip range. The RivNuts come in different sizes (guess how I know). Measure the thickness of the boom wall and get the right RivNuts. When I needed them, I had to switch between imperial and metric to find the right size. Good luck Marek Sent from my Android-based can on a string Original message From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> Date: 2022-10-31 12:53 (GMT-05:00) To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> Cc: wolf...@erie.net<mailto:wolf...@erie.net> Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair Getting ready to pull the trigger on the RivNut idea. The stainless RivNuts I found have a grip range of 0.027"-0.125". I was able to measure the thickness of the aluminum I'm going through: 1/8" (maybe a micron or two heavy), which is the top of the range. For those familiar with these things, should I look for RivNuts with a slightly longer grip range, or is a .125 top end of the range meant for 1/8" applications? Please advise (if you know). Thanks. -Original Message- From: Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 12:08 PM To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> Cc: Marek Dziedzic mailto:dziedzi...@hotmail.com>> Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair >From what I know, the RivNuts are better for shear load (rather than for pull). Also, be careful how long the bolts you use. You don't want the bolts sticking inside the boom (if you have any lines going there). Just a few cents Marek 1994 #122 "Legato" Ottawa, ON
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
Marek: Once again, I appreciate your insight. Today I ordered some RivNuts and a tool. I was concerned about the tight tolerance of the grip range, so I did additional research. I found aluminum RivNuts with a broader grip range, so I decided to order them. In addition, it occurred to me that having aluminum on aluminum was probably better. The replacement screws will be stainless, but I can coat them with Tef Gel or something. Better to not have dissimilar metals working against each other at the RivNut interface. I think this will be a good solution. Thanks to you and the other listers who provided advice. I'll keep you posted. Matt From: Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 9:34 PM To: Stus-List Cc: Marek Dziedzic Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair Be very careful about the grip range. The RivNuts come in different sizes (guess how I know). Measure the thickness of the boom wall and get the right RivNuts. When I needed them, I had to switch between imperial and metric to find the right size. Good luck Marek Sent from my Android-based can on a string Original message From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > Date: 2022-10-31 12:53 (GMT-05:00) To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > Cc: wolf...@erie.net <mailto:wolf...@erie.net> Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair Getting ready to pull the trigger on the RivNut idea. The stainless RivNuts I found have a grip range of 0.027"-0.125". I was able to measure the thickness of the aluminum I'm going through: 1/8" (maybe a micron or two heavy), which is the top of the range. For those familiar with these things, should I look for RivNuts with a slightly longer grip range, or is a .125 top end of the range meant for 1/8" applications? Please advise (if you know). Thanks. -Original Message- From: Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 12:08 PM To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > Cc: Marek Dziedzic mailto:dziedzi...@hotmail.com> > Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair >From what I know, the RivNuts are better for shear load (rather than for pull). Also, be careful how long the bolts you use. You don't want the bolts sticking inside the boom (if you have any lines going there). Just a few cents Marek 1994 #122 "Legato" Ottawa, ON
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
Be very careful about the grip range. The RivNuts come in different sizes (guess how I know). Measure the thickness of the boom wall and get the right RivNuts. When I needed them, I had to switch between imperial and metric to find the right size. Good luck Marek Sent from my Android-based can on a string Original message From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List Date: 2022-10-31 12:53 (GMT-05:00) To: 'Stus-List' Cc: wolf...@erie.net Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair Getting ready to pull the trigger on the RivNut idea. The stainless RivNuts I found have a grip range of 0.027"-0.125". I was able to measure the thickness of the aluminum I'm going through: 1/8" (maybe a micron or two heavy), which is the top of the range. For those familiar with these things, should I look for RivNuts with a slightly longer grip range, or is a .125 top end of the range meant for 1/8" applications? Please advise (if you know). Thanks. -Original Message- From: Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 12:08 PM To: Stus-List Cc: Marek Dziedzic Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair >From what I know, the RivNuts are better for shear load (rather than for pull). Also, be careful how long the bolts you use. You don't want the bolts sticking inside the boom (if you have any lines going there). Just a few cents Marek 1994 #122 "Legato" Ottawa, ON
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
A hand rivet tool is cheap and if you ask around I’ll bet someone will have one. That said, did you try an “ez-out”. Also not expensive and works great if the bolts aren’t “frozen” Neil Andersen, W3NEA Rock Hall, MD 21661 484-354-8800 From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 12:56:01 PM To: 'Stus-List' Cc: wolf...@erie.net Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair Also, in response to Marek: the pulling load appears to be handled by the track. The bolts prevent the boom vang fitting from moving back and forth. Also, I plan to use the same length bolts, if possible. If I need to go slightly longer for the RivNut, so be it. Thanks. -Original Message- From: Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 12:08 PM To: Stus-List Cc: Marek Dziedzic Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair >From what I know, the RivNuts are better for shear load (rather than for pull). Also, be careful how long the bolts you use. You don't want the bolts sticking inside the boom (if you have any lines going there). Just a few cents Marek 1994 #122 "Legato" Ottawa, ON
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
Also, in response to Marek: the pulling load appears to be handled by the track. The bolts prevent the boom vang fitting from moving back and forth. Also, I plan to use the same length bolts, if possible. If I need to go slightly longer for the RivNut, so be it. Thanks. -Original Message- From: Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 12:08 PM To: Stus-List Cc: Marek Dziedzic Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair >From what I know, the RivNuts are better for shear load (rather than for pull). Also, be careful how long the bolts you use. You don't want the bolts sticking inside the boom (if you have any lines going there). Just a few cents Marek 1994 #122 "Legato" Ottawa, ON
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
Getting ready to pull the trigger on the RivNut idea. The stainless RivNuts I found have a grip range of 0.027"-0.125". I was able to measure the thickness of the aluminum I'm going through: 1/8" (maybe a micron or two heavy), which is the top of the range. For those familiar with these things, should I look for RivNuts with a slightly longer grip range, or is a .125 top end of the range meant for 1/8" applications? Please advise (if you know). Thanks. -Original Message- From: Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 12:08 PM To: Stus-List Cc: Marek Dziedzic Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair >From what I know, the RivNuts are better for shear load (rather than for pull). Also, be careful how long the bolts you use. You don't want the bolts sticking inside the boom (if you have any lines going there). Just a few cents Marek 1994 #122 "Legato" Ottawa, ON
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
>From what I know, the RivNuts are better for shear load (rather than for pull). Also, be careful how long the bolts you use. You don't want the bolts sticking inside the boom (if you have any lines going there). Just a few cents Marek 1994 #122 "Legato" Ottawa, ON -Original Message- From: Jeff Nelson via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 10:43 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Jeff Nelson Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair For Option 3: Could use a RivNut, which may increase the load bearing on the thin walled boom. https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boellhoff.com%2Fca-en%2Fproducts-and-services%2Fspecial-fasteners%2Fblind-rivet-nuts-rivnut.phpdata=05%7C01%7C%7C88ca27064e7f4b40805108dabb4e4202%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C638028242028510337%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7Csdata=oZb5RJBhWFQnbLkE%2BaeaAmf4MMFL%2FjPxZErtZ3ChsL0%3Dreserved=0 These are commonly available at hardware stores. You don't need the special tool, you can install them with 2 wrenches. I'm not sure what the load capabilities are on these. I used them to install my Vang, but my bolts go in horizontally through the boom, so most of the load is on the boom material not pulling out the threadingand of course, I'm a lot smaller boat. Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C 30 - 549 Armdale Y.C. On 2022-10-31 10:48, Barry McKee via CnC-List wrote: > Option 1 seems to be the best solution. Boom material may not be thick > enough to support the helicoil solution. > > Good luck!! > > Barry McKee > C 29 Mk I > > > > My options are: 1) move the vang fitting and drill/tap new holes; 2) > drill/tap the existing holes with larger bolts (which may be too large to fit > in the vang fitting); or 3) install helicoil inserts in the existing holes > (which I've never used before). Thoughts? > > Matt > C 42 Custom
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
Hi Matt, Did you consider riveting it in? They will often fit in screw holes that were pulled out, are easy to install, and are quite strong. If you get to a larger rivet size a cheap hydraulic puller from Harbor Freight will get the job done nicely. Rivnuts are nice but they are not likely to take the load that is going to be put on the fitting. They also have a tendency to loosen up over time causing them to spin in the hole. They have their place, just more suited for things such as panels and nonstructural items. Good luck, CarlC, CT On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 09:22:57 AM EDT, Matt Wolford via CnC-List wrote: Listers: I'm about to undertake a repair and could use some advice. On an overnight delivery in August we were on a broad reach in large waves and the main unexpectedly jibed. We promptly put on a preventer. In the morning I found 8 sheared off cap socket screws from the boom vang lying on the deck. The vang is secured with a fitting that can be moved fore and aft in a channel on the underside of the boom. The channel runs the length of the boom. Whoever installed the fitting originally found a suitable location for the vang and drilled/tapped holes to securely mount the fitting into a piece of aluminum that is integral to the channel inside the boom. Inspection of the holes indicates that several were damaged when the cap socket screws were sheared. I'm glad no one was near that boom when the main jibed. My options are: 1) move the vang fitting and drill/tap new holes; 2) drill/tap the existing holes with larger bolts (which may be too large to fit in the vang fitting); or 3) install helicoil inserts in the existing holes (which I've never used before). Thoughts? Matt C 42 Custom
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
How to install rivnut without a tool: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6H6wr7fJYo -- Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C 30 - 549 Armdale Y.C. On 2022-10-31 12:04, Paul Fountain via CnC-List wrote: I've used RivNuts on our vang after having issued with helicoils not having enough material to get a good hold in. I did buy the tool which made it a simple installation. -Original Message- From: Jeff Nelson via CnC-List Sent: October 31, 2022 10:43 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Jeff Nelson Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair For Option 3: Could use a RivNut, which may increase the load bearing on the thin walled boom. https://www.boellhoff.com/ca-en/products-and-services/special-fasteners/blind-rivet-nuts-rivnut.php These are commonly available at hardware stores. -- Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C 30 - 549 Armdale Y.C.
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
I've used RivNuts on our vang after having issued with helicoils not having enough material to get a good hold in. I did buy the tool which made it a simple installation. -Original Message- From: Jeff Nelson via CnC-List Sent: October 31, 2022 10:43 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Jeff Nelson Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair For Option 3: Could use a RivNut, which may increase the load bearing on the thin walled boom. https://www.boellhoff.com/ca-en/products-and-services/special-fasteners/blind-rivet-nuts-rivnut.php These are commonly available at hardware stores. You don't need the special tool, you can install them with 2 wrenches. I'm not sure what the load capabilities are on these. I used them to install my Vang, but my bolts go in horizontally through the boom, so most of the load is on the boom material not pulling out the threadingand of course, I'm a lot smaller boat. Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C 30 - 549 Armdale Y.C. On 2022-10-31 10:48, Barry McKee via CnC-List wrote: > Option 1 seems to be the best solution. Boom material may not be thick > enough to support the helicoil solution. > > Good luck!! > > Barry McKee > C 29 Mk I > > > > My options are: 1) move the vang fitting and drill/tap new holes; 2) > drill/tap the existing holes with larger bolts (which may be too large to fit > in the vang fitting); or 3) install helicoil inserts in the existing holes > (which I've never used before). Thoughts? > > Matt > C 42 Custom
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
I like that idea. Thanks! -Original Message- From: Jeff Nelson via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 10:43 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Jeff Nelson Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair For Option 3: Could use a RivNut, which may increase the load bearing on the thin walled boom. https://www.boellhoff.com/ca-en/products-and-services/special-fasteners/blind-rivet-nuts-rivnut.php These are commonly available at hardware stores. You don't need the special tool, you can install them with 2 wrenches. I'm not sure what the load capabilities are on these. I used them to install my Vang, but my bolts go in horizontally through the boom, so most of the load is on the boom material not pulling out the threadingand of course, I'm a lot smaller boat. Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C 30 - 549 Armdale Y.C. On 2022-10-31 10:48, Barry McKee via CnC-List wrote: > Option 1 seems to be the best solution. Boom material may not be thick > enough to support the helicoil solution. > > Good luck!! > > Barry McKee > C 29 Mk I > > > > My options are: 1) move the vang fitting and drill/tap new holes; 2) > drill/tap the existing holes with larger bolts (which may be too large to fit > in the vang fitting); or 3) install helicoil inserts in the existing holes > (which I've never used before). Thoughts? > > Matt > C 42 Custom
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
Thanks, Barry. How thick does the material need to be for helicoil? -Original Message- From: Barry McKee via CnC-List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2022 9:48 AM To: 'Stus-List' Cc: virb...@cogeco.ca Subject: Stus-List Re: Vang repair Option 1 seems to be the best solution. Boom material may not be thick enough to support the helicoil solution. Good luck!! Barry McKee C 29 Mk I
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
For Option 3: Could use a RivNut, which may increase the load bearing on the thin walled boom. https://www.boellhoff.com/ca-en/products-and-services/special-fasteners/blind-rivet-nuts-rivnut.php These are commonly available at hardware stores. You don't need the special tool, you can install them with 2 wrenches. I'm not sure what the load capabilities are on these. I used them to install my Vang, but my bolts go in horizontally through the boom, so most of the load is on the boom material not pulling out the threadingand of course, I'm a lot smaller boat. Cheers, Jeff Nelson Muir Caileag C 30 - 549 Armdale Y.C. On 2022-10-31 10:48, Barry McKee via CnC-List wrote: Option 1 seems to be the best solution. Boom material may not be thick enough to support the helicoil solution. Good luck!! Barry McKee C 29 Mk I My options are: 1) move the vang fitting and drill/tap new holes; 2) drill/tap the existing holes with larger bolts (which may be too large to fit in the vang fitting); or 3) install helicoil inserts in the existing holes (which I've never used before). Thoughts? Matt C 42 Custom
Stus-List Re: Vang repair
Option 1 seems to be the best solution. Boom material may not be thick enough to support the helicoil solution. Good luck!! Barry McKee C 29 Mk I -Original Message- From: Matt Wolford via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] Sent: 31-Oct-22 9:22 AM To: 'Stus-List' Cc: wolf...@erie.net Subject: Stus-List Vang repair Listers: I'm about to undertake a repair and could use some advice. On an overnight delivery in August we were on a broad reach in large waves and the main unexpectedly jibed. We promptly put on a preventer. In the morning I found 8 sheared off cap socket screws from the boom vang lying on the deck. The vang is secured with a fitting that can be moved fore and aft in a channel on the underside of the boom. The channel runs the length of the boom. Whoever installed the fitting originally found a suitable location for the vang and drilled/tapped holes to securely mount the fitting into a piece of aluminum that is integral to the channel inside the boom. Inspection of the holes indicates that several were damaged when the cap socket screws were sheared. I'm glad no one was near that boom when the main jibed. My options are: 1) move the vang fitting and drill/tap new holes; 2) drill/tap the existing holes with larger bolts (which may be too large to fit in the vang fitting); or 3) install helicoil inserts in the existing holes (which I've never used before). Thoughts? Matt C 42 Custom
