Stus-List Re: Winches in use for dip pole jibes.

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Or just go the Asymmetric route. I went from two sheets and two guys, to
one neutral with Twingers, to Asymmetric. Too many strings confuse me.

Bill Coleman

On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 5:22 PM cenelson--- via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Great info and from someone who knows about dip pole or other kite
> maneuvers!
>
> If the after guard, including the trimmers, are paying attention the
> appropriate sheets and guys are in their proper places, just displaced from
> each other fore and aft as my tactician prefers.
>
> I am now convinced that the sheets and guys will be in their proper places
> after the kite is hoisted and doused as described for port rounding—thus
> there is not likely that keeping the guys forward and sheets aft will be
> significantly slower than having them paired athwartship.
>
> Thanks for your reply—it has converted me!!
>
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
>
>
>
>
> Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS
> 
>
> On Thursday, December 1, 2022, 3:34 PM, ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> I have been doing dip pole gybes for forty + years. My primary winches are
> forward on the coaming and secondaries are aft (like yours). The primaries
> are always used for the guys and the genoa sheets and the secondaries are
> always used for the spinnaker sheets. Since you are rounding the windward
> mark on starboard tack, the genoa sheet is on the port primary, and the
> starboard primary is free to use for the spinnaker guy. When you round the
> leeward mark on starboard tack, the port primary is free to use for the
> genoa sheet. As soon as you round at either the windward or leeward mark,
> the port primary is free if you want to tack or gybe. If you use a
> spinnaker staysail, the primary is used for the staysail sheet, after the
> genoa is dropped or furled. Try this the next time you're out and you'll
> see how simple it is.
>
> Alan Bergen
> 35 Mk III Thirsty
> Rose City YC
> Portland, OR
>
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:42 AM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> My tactician and I have a friendly disagreement on which winches to use
> when doing dip pole jibes with lazy sheets and 'guys' on my masthead rig
> C 36 XL/kcb:
>
> On Water Phantom, I have moved the initial primary winches (Lewmar ST 50s)
> forward on the cockpit coaming and added another secondary winch pair
> (Lewmar ST 44s) at the aft end of the cockpit coaming. Thus my secondaries
> are hardly secondary in strength and power ratios, etc.
>
> All our races have port roundings and most are W-L. Thus we are on
> starboard tack at either the windward or leeward mark. I am no expert on
> dip-pole jibes but as I thought thru the sequence of events at the turning
> mark on starboard tack, it seemed intuitive to me to rig the kite with a
> starboard pole always (we never do jib sets!), using the aft secondary
> winches for both the sheet and the guy on the kite. This leaves the forward
> primary winches committed to the headsail as we make the turn at the mark.
>
> After the turn, the primary winches can be cleared of the headsail sheets
> and the other set of kite lines (sheet and guy) can be rigged on these
> primary winches. When it comes time to jibe, the aft secondary kite lines
> become lazy and the trimmers use the primary winches--note the primary and
> secondary winches are only about 2 feet apart. For the next jibe, the
> trimmers move to the aft secondary winches and so on...
>
> At the leeward mark, always on starboard for port roundings, the kite is
> back to being controlled by the aft secondaries (as at the windward
> mark) and the forward primaries can be loaded with the headsail sheets in
> anticipation of the beat to windward just as they were positioned at the
> windward mark. I like this symmetry (but then I am mostly a left-hander!)
> and think it involves less line switching, less time and might be faster
> than using a forward set of winches for both guys, etc.
>
> OTOH, my tactician races mainly in a one design Beneteau 41S fleet in
> Chicago where the primary forward winches have both guys on them, the aft
> secondary winches are used for both sheets always. (I think this is because
> the secondaries might be pretty small on the 41S and they and/or the crew
> may not be able to handle the guys on the secondary aft winches).
>
> Since I have no problem with using Lewmar 44s as primary winches, I have
> the option to do the winches ala the Chicago way or the Water Phantom way.
> Before I commit to having the crew learn how to do these winch swaps as we
> go from jibe to jibe, I want to choose the best way to handle the winches
> and stick with it through the season.
>
> What do the list racers think of these alternatives?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
> New Bern, NC
>
>
>
>
> Don't forget to show your appreciation and help 

Stus-List Re: Winches in use for dip pole jibes.

[cenelson--- via CnC-List]

Great info and from someone who knows about dip pole or other kite maneuvers!
If the after guard, including the trimmers, are paying attention the 
appropriate sheets and guys are in their proper places, just displaced from 
each other fore and aft as my tactician prefers.
I am now convinced that the sheets and guys will be in their proper places 
after the kite is hoisted and doused as described for port rounding—thus there 
is not likely that keeping the guys forward and sheets aft will be 
significantly slower than having them paired athwartship.
Thanks for your reply—it has converted me!!
Charlie NelsonWater Phantom



Sent from the all new AOL app for iOS


On Thursday, December 1, 2022, 3:34 PM, ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List 
 wrote:

I have been doing dip pole gybes for forty + years. My primary winches are 
forward on the coaming and secondaries are aft (like yours). The primaries are 
always used for the guys and the genoa sheets and the secondaries are always 
used for the spinnaker sheets. Since you are rounding the windward mark on 
starboard tack, the genoa sheet is on the port primary, and the starboard 
primary is free to use for the spinnaker guy. When you round the leeward mark 
on starboard tack, the port primary is free to use for the genoa sheet. As soon 
as you round at either the windward or leeward mark, the port primary is free 
if you want to tack or gybe. If you use a spinnaker staysail, the primary is 
used for the staysail sheet, after the genoa is dropped or furled. Try this the 
next time you're out and you'll see how simple it is.
Alan Bergen35 Mk III ThirstyRose City YCPortland, OR



On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:42 AM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 wrote:

My tactician and I have a friendly disagreement on which winches to use when 
doing dip pole jibes with lazy sheets and 'guys' on my masthead rig C 36 
XL/kcb:
On Water Phantom, I have moved the initial primary winches (Lewmar ST 50s) 
forward on the cockpit coaming and added another secondary winch pair (Lewmar 
ST 44s) at the aft end of the cockpit coaming. Thus my secondaries are hardly 
secondary in strength and power ratios, etc.
All our races have port roundings and most are W-L. Thus we are on starboard 
tack at either the windward or leeward mark. I am no expert on dip-pole jibes 
but as I thought thru the sequence of events at the turning mark on starboard 
tack, it seemed intuitive to me to rig the kite with a starboard pole always 
(we never do jib sets!), using the aft secondary winches for both the sheet and 
the guy on the kite. This leaves the forward primary winches committed to the 
headsail as we make the turn at the mark.
After the turn, the primary winches can be cleared of the headsail sheets and 
the other set of kite lines (sheet and guy) can be rigged on these primary 
winches. When it comes time to jibe, the aft secondary kite lines become lazy 
and the trimmers use the primary winches--note the primary and secondary 
winches are only about 2 feet apart. For the next jibe, the trimmers move to 
the aft secondary winches and so on...
At the leeward mark, always on starboard for port roundings, the kite is back 
to being controlled by the aft secondaries (as at the windward mark) and the 
forward primaries can be loaded with the headsail sheets in anticipation of the 
beat to windward just as they were positioned at the windward mark. I like this 
symmetry (but then I am mostly a left-hander!) and think it involves less line 
switching, less time and might be faster than using a forward set of winches 
for both guys, etc.
OTOH, my tactician races mainly in a one design Beneteau 41S fleet in Chicago 
where the primary forward winches have both guys on them, the aft secondary 
winches are used for both sheets always. (I think this is because the 
secondaries might be pretty small on the 41S and they and/or the crew may not 
be able to handle the guys on the secondary aft winches). 
Since I have no problem with using Lewmar 44s as primary winches, I have the 
option to do the winches ala the Chicago way or the Water Phantom way. Before I 
commit to having the crew learn how to do these winch swaps as we go from jibe 
to jibe, I want to choose the best way to handle the winches and stick with it 
through the season.
What do the list racers think of these alternatives?
Thanks in advance,

Charlie NelsonWater Phantom1995 C 36 XL/kcbNew Bern, NC
 

Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a 
contribution at:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.paypal.me/stumurray__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!vUPc2BB4BPbQ2KTBeNNg8NMnuKVmashBtlisYX9auO-GBORHm6GeHlV0qLlNN59vn4fVJla0BlJTwUGH0bqT1Hc$
 
Thanks for your help.
Alan Bergen
Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a 
contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Charlie Nelson


Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a 
contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List Re: Winches in use for dip pole jibes.

[ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List]

I have been doing dip pole gybes for forty + years. My primary winches are
forward on the coaming and secondaries are aft (like yours). The primaries
are always used for the guys and the genoa sheets and the secondaries are
always used for the spinnaker sheets. Since you are rounding the windward
mark on starboard tack, the genoa sheet is on the port primary, and the
starboard primary is free to use for the spinnaker guy. When you round the
leeward mark on starboard tack, the port primary is free to use for the
genoa sheet. As soon as you round at either the windward or leeward mark,
the port primary is free if you want to tack or gybe. If you use a
spinnaker staysail, the primary is used for the staysail sheet, after the
genoa is dropped or furled. Try this the next time you're out and you'll
see how simple it is.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR



On Thu, Dec 1, 2022 at 11:42 AM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> My tactician and I have a friendly disagreement on which winches to use
> when doing dip pole jibes with lazy sheets and 'guys' on my masthead rig
> C 36 XL/kcb:
>
> On Water Phantom, I have moved the initial primary winches (Lewmar ST 50s)
> forward on the cockpit coaming and added another secondary winch pair
> (Lewmar ST 44s) at the aft end of the cockpit coaming. Thus my secondaries
> are hardly secondary in strength and power ratios, etc.
>
> All our races have port roundings and most are W-L. Thus we are on
> starboard tack at either the windward or leeward mark. I am no expert on
> dip-pole jibes but as I thought thru the sequence of events at the turning
> mark on starboard tack, it seemed intuitive to me to rig the kite with a
> starboard pole always (we never do jib sets!), using the aft secondary
> winches for both the sheet and the guy on the kite. This leaves the forward
> primary winches committed to the headsail as we make the turn at the mark.
>
> After the turn, the primary winches can be cleared of the headsail sheets
> and the other set of kite lines (sheet and guy) can be rigged on these
> primary winches. When it comes time to jibe, the aft secondary kite lines
> become lazy and the trimmers use the primary winches--note the primary and
> secondary winches are only about 2 feet apart. For the next jibe, the
> trimmers move to the aft secondary winches and so on...
>
> At the leeward mark, always on starboard for port roundings, the kite is
> back to being controlled by the aft secondaries (as at the windward
> mark) and the forward primaries can be loaded with the headsail sheets in
> anticipation of the beat to windward just as they were positioned at the
> windward mark. I like this symmetry (but then I am mostly a left-hander!)
> and think it involves less line switching, less time and might be faster
> than using a forward set of winches for both guys, etc.
>
> OTOH, my tactician races mainly in a one design Beneteau 41S fleet in
> Chicago where the primary forward winches have both guys on them, the aft
> secondary winches are used for both sheets always. (I think this is because
> the secondaries might be pretty small on the 41S and they and/or the crew
> may not be able to handle the guys on the secondary aft winches).
>
> Since I have no problem with using Lewmar 44s as primary winches, I have
> the option to do the winches ala the Chicago way or the Water Phantom way.
> Before I commit to having the crew learn how to do these winch swaps as we
> go from jibe to jibe, I want to choose the best way to handle the winches
> and stick with it through the season.
>
> What do the list racers think of these alternatives?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
> New Bern, NC
>
>
>
>
> Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a
> contribution at:
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.paypal.me/stumurray__;!!LIr3w8kk_Xxm!vUPc2BB4BPbQ2KTBeNNg8NMnuKVmashBtlisYX9auO-GBORHm6GeHlV0qLlNN59vn4fVJla0BlJTwUGH0bqT1Hc$
> Thanks for your help.
> Alan Bergen
Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a 
contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.

Stus-List Re: Winches in use for dip pole jibes.

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Makes sense and if the trimmers are paying attention, the sheets and guys are 
in the right place at both the windward and leeward marks, they are just at 
different places fore and aft on either side. If I understand your post, you 
did it that way for reasons other than that the secondaries could not handle 
the potential force that having the pole guy on them could produce.
I don't want to reinvent any wheels here--just looking for what is easiest for 
the crew to learn and remember as we go up the learning curve--I certainly 
don't want to start with one way and then switch!! 

Thanks,
Charlie 


-Original Message-
From: Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Hoyt, Mike 
Sent: Thu, Dec 1, 2022 2:49 pm
Subject: Stus-List Re: Winches in use for dip pole jibes.

Hi Charlie    When 
we raced on a C 115 we always put the guys on primary and sheets on 
secondary.    Usually if you are rounding WW mark on stbd the guy is on stbd 
primary and sheet on port secondary leaving port primary for jib sheet    If 
W/L as you describe at the LW mark guy is on WW side primary and new jib sheet 
on LW side primary.    This only becomes a problem if you have to tack last 
minute at the mark and with the pole up that is usually a S Show anyway so who 
really cares where the lazy guy is at that point    That boat is long gone from 
here now and we don’t do dip pole on Persistence    Mike Former crew on 
Koobalibra C 115 Halifax    From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 

Sent: December 1, 2022 3:42 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List Winches in use for dip pole jibes.    My tactician and I 
have a friendly disagreement on which winches to use when doing dip pole jibes 
with lazy sheets and 'guys' on my masthead rig C 36 XL/kcb:    On Water 
Phantom, I have moved the initial primary winches (Lewmar ST 50s) forward on 
the cockpit coaming and added another secondary winch pair (Lewmar ST 44s) at 
the aft end of the cockpit coaming. Thus my secondaries are hardly secondary in 
strength and power ratios, etc.    All our races have port roundings and most 
are W-L. Thus we are on starboard tack at either the windward or leeward mark. 
I am no expert on dip-pole jibes but as I thought thru the sequence of events 
at the turning mark on starboard tack, it seemed intuitive to me to rig the 
kite with a starboard pole always (we never do jib sets!), using the aft 
secondary winches for both the sheet and the guy on the kite. This leaves the 
forward primary winches committed to the headsail as we make the turn at the 
mark.    After the turn, the primary winches can be cleared of the headsail 
sheets and the other set of kite lines (sheet and guy) can be rigged on these 
primary winches. When it comes time to jibe, the aft secondary kite lines 
become lazy and the trimmers use the primary winches--note the primary and 
secondary winches are only about 2 feet apart. For the next jibe, the trimmers 
move to the aft secondary winches and so on...    At the leeward mark, always 
on starboard for port roundings, the kite is back to being controlled by the 
aft secondaries (as at the windward mark) and the forward primaries can be 
loaded with the headsail sheets in anticipation of the beat to windward just as 
they were positioned at the windward mark. I like this symmetry (but then I am 
mostly a left-hander!) and think it involves less line switching, less time and 
might be faster than using a forward set of winches for both guys, etc.    
OTOH, my tactician races mainly in a one design Beneteau 41S fleet in Chicago 
where the primary forward winches have both guys on them, the aft secondary 
winches are used for both sheets always. (I think this is because the 
secondaries might be pretty small on the 41S and they and/or the crew may not 
be able to handle the guys on the secondary aft winches).     Since I have no 
problem with using Lewmar 44s as primary winches, I have the option to do the 
winches ala the Chicago way or the Water Phantom way. Before I commit to having 
the crew learn how to do these winch swaps as we go from jibe to jibe, I want 
to choose the best way to handle the winches and stick with it through the 
season.    What do the list racers think of these alternatives?    Thanks in 
advance,       Charlie Nelson Water Phantom 1995 C 36 XL/kcb New Bern, NC     
       Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a 
contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.
Charlie NelsonDon't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a 
contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.

Stus-List Re: Winches in use for dip pole jibes.

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Hi Charlie

When we raced on a C 115 we always put the guys on primary and sheets on 
secondary.

Usually if you are rounding WW mark on stbd the guy is on stbd primary and 
sheet on port secondary leaving port primary for jib sheet

If W/L as you describe at the LW mark guy is on WW side primary and new jib 
sheet on LW side primary.

This only becomes a problem if you have to tack last minute at the mark and 
with the pole up that is usually a S Show anyway so who really cares where the 
lazy guy is at that point

That boat is long gone from here now and we don’t do dip pole on Persistence

Mike
Former crew on Koobalibra
C 115
Halifax

From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
Sent: December 1, 2022 3:42 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: cenel...@aol.com
Subject: Stus-List Winches in use for dip pole jibes.

My tactician and I have a friendly disagreement on which winches to use when 
doing dip pole jibes with lazy sheets and 'guys' on my masthead rig C 36 
XL/kcb:

On Water Phantom, I have moved the initial primary winches (Lewmar ST 50s) 
forward on the cockpit coaming and added another secondary winch pair (Lewmar 
ST 44s) at the aft end of the cockpit coaming. Thus my secondaries are hardly 
secondary in strength and power ratios, etc.

All our races have port roundings and most are W-L. Thus we are on starboard 
tack at either the windward or leeward mark. I am no expert on dip-pole jibes 
but as I thought thru the sequence of events at the turning mark on starboard 
tack, it seemed intuitive to me to rig the kite with a starboard pole always 
(we never do jib sets!), using the aft secondary winches for both the sheet and 
the guy on the kite. This leaves the forward primary winches committed to the 
headsail as we make the turn at the mark.

After the turn, the primary winches can be cleared of the headsail sheets and 
the other set of kite lines (sheet and guy) can be rigged on these primary 
winches. When it comes time to jibe, the aft secondary kite lines become lazy 
and the trimmers use the primary winches--note the primary and secondary 
winches are only about 2 feet apart. For the next jibe, the trimmers move to 
the aft secondary winches and so on...

At the leeward mark, always on starboard for port roundings, the kite is back 
to being controlled by the aft secondaries (as at the windward mark) and the 
forward primaries can be loaded with the headsail sheets in anticipation of the 
beat to windward just as they were positioned at the windward mark. I like this 
symmetry (but then I am mostly a left-hander!) and think it involves less line 
switching, less time and might be faster than using a forward set of winches 
for both guys, etc.

OTOH, my tactician races mainly in a one design Beneteau 41S fleet in Chicago 
where the primary forward winches have both guys on them, the aft secondary 
winches are used for both sheets always. (I think this is because the 
secondaries might be pretty small on the 41S and they and/or the crew may not 
be able to handle the guys on the secondary aft winches).

Since I have no problem with using Lewmar 44s as primary winches, I have the 
option to do the winches ala the Chicago way or the Water Phantom way. Before I 
commit to having the crew learn how to do these winch swaps as we go from jibe 
to jibe, I want to choose the best way to handle the winches and stick with it 
through the season.

What do the list racers think of these alternatives?

Thanks in advance,


Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C 36 XL/kcb
New Bern, NC




Don't forget to show your appreciation and help pay the bills.  Make a 
contribution at:
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
Thanks for your help.