Stus-List Rudder Replacement

[Spencer Johnson via CnC-List]

Hi Patrick.I had some leakage from the rudder thru a crack in the forward 
edge.  I had the yard clean it up and epoxy some cloth over it and GFlex around 
the tube entry.
Still getting some leakage into the rudder.  SO, my solution is to remove the 
rudder every year and keep it in my garage so it won't freeze...ever.  I lean 
it up on an angle and it drips a bit...maybe a half cut or sobut I feel 
better.
Getting pretty good at removing and reinstalling it...a PITA but do-able with 
my wife and I...except for putting it back in.  I do tie a rope sling around 
the rudder with a loop around the bottom to be able to firmly hold onto the 
rudder...it is not too easy to hold onto by itself.  Luckily sailors are a 
helpful bunch and a couple of them are usually around to assist for 10 minutes 
or so to align the quadrant and get the top nut started.  Look out for the 
'key' in the rudder shaft!  Mine drops out.  ALSO, I found a round red 
scotchbright type drill attachment that I use with 2 18" extensions to clean 
out the shaft tube wetted down with kerosene to loosen any contaminents.  For 
grease I just use a waterproof bearing greasequite a bit of it...as it gets 
changed annually I am not too picky. No more worries about a $5k bill!
The top nutI use a pipe wrench..it will not spin off no matter how much 
lube I use.  So, I wrap it in Gorilla Tape for protection from the pipe 
wrench...that seems to work pretty well.  I tried using some hose around the 
top nut by it just slipped.  I didn't want to chance creating a problem with 
the set screws by using them as grips for the pipe wrench.
$0.02
Spencer Johnson
'84 LF38 #165 "Alegria"
Waukegan, IL/Racine, WI
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement/repair

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Check with PYI if you are rudder shopping.  They have Jefa rudders
available.

http://www.pyiinc.com/

Joel

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Patrick Davin via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Gene's question is timely since the reason I'm trying to drop my rudder
> now is to fix the leaking. I observed weeping at last year's haul-out,
> drilled drainage holes, and got about 1/2 cup of reddish rusty smelly
> water.
>
> My Vancouver surveyor told me water in rudders of old boats is very
> common, and he didn't seem too concerned with it. Said to drop the rudder
> at next haul-out to dremel around where the stock enters the top of the
> rudder and then epoxy that up with Gflex or something similar. The water
> usually gets in from the stock entry since the stresses end up cracking the
> fiberglass there.
>
> At the yard this week we drilled two 2" hole saw holes. One low, where
> tapping revealed a void - that one showed some water is traveling through
> the void, and wetting the outer edge of foam, but not traveling through the
> closed cell foam - the foam looked pretty good. The other hole was higher,
> near the stock. No water found at this one, and no void, but we were able
> to see the stock and plate. The welds look good and the stock has only
> minor rust marks. The plate is brownish/black, but the yard manager said
> that's probably a lower grade of stainless used.
>
> I don't think the LF38 has 3 "fingers" coming out from the stock like the
> 37+ does, I think it's one contiguous plate. Since the yard manager thought
> the rudder looks pretty good, our plan is to drop it to dry it out a bit
> more and then seal it up to try to stop the water ingress - and having the
> rudder dropped will make the fiberglass repairs of the hole saw holes +
> void easier.
>
> Foss Foam will make new rudders for about $5k (for this size), in about 4
> weeks time, shipped from FL. A rebuild costs about almost that much. If you
> wanted to do a rudder replacement it'd also be worth checking with
> Southshore Yachts because they list some C&C rudders (with 4 week wait time
> - I wonder if they're just contracting with Foss to make a template/design
> they have).
>
> A guy next to me in the boatyard with an older full keel, skeg protected
> rudder is replacing his rudder with a Foss because his rudder was a mess -
> the fiberglass skin cracked in multiple places and a prior owner tried to
> fix it by fiberglassing over, but didn't grind back all the gelcoat and
> fiberglassed over gelcoat in places.
>
> -Patrick
> 1984 C&C Landfall 38
> Seattle, WA
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:23 AM,  wrote:
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: David Knecht 
>> To: CnC CnC discussion list 
>> Cc:
>> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:22:58 -0400
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement/repair
>> Water in the rudder seems to be really common. My rudder was rebuilt
>> before I bought the boat.  I think surveyors tend to overdo this as my
>> metal also looked fine once the rudder was opened up.  I am curious about
>> the foam in Josh’s pictures.  I would have thought it would keep water from
>> accumulating inside if it was closed cell foam.  Was it actually wet?
>> Also, I discovered last weekend that when my was rebuilt, they did not fill
>> the interior with foam because we saw water weeping out of the trailing
>> edge and when we drilled into the middle, a large stream of water drained
>> out for about 15 minutes.  I am going to have the yard open a hole and fill
>> the interior with foam.  The alternative to foam would be to drill a small
>> hole every fall and drain it, then plug.Thoughts?  Dave
>>
>> Aries
>> 1990 C&C 34+
>> New London, CT
>>
>
>
>
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>
>


-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement/repair

[Patrick Davin via CnC-List]

Gene's question is timely since the reason I'm trying to drop my rudder now
is to fix the leaking. I observed weeping at last year's haul-out, drilled
drainage holes, and got about 1/2 cup of reddish rusty smelly water.

My Vancouver surveyor told me water in rudders of old boats is very common,
and he didn't seem too concerned with it. Said to drop the rudder at next
haul-out to dremel around where the stock enters the top of the rudder and
then epoxy that up with Gflex or something similar. The water usually gets
in from the stock entry since the stresses end up cracking the fiberglass
there.

At the yard this week we drilled two 2" hole saw holes. One low, where
tapping revealed a void - that one showed some water is traveling through
the void, and wetting the outer edge of foam, but not traveling through the
closed cell foam - the foam looked pretty good. The other hole was higher,
near the stock. No water found at this one, and no void, but we were able
to see the stock and plate. The welds look good and the stock has only
minor rust marks. The plate is brownish/black, but the yard manager said
that's probably a lower grade of stainless used.

I don't think the LF38 has 3 "fingers" coming out from the stock like the
37+ does, I think it's one contiguous plate. Since the yard manager thought
the rudder looks pretty good, our plan is to drop it to dry it out a bit
more and then seal it up to try to stop the water ingress - and having the
rudder dropped will make the fiberglass repairs of the hole saw holes +
void easier.

Foss Foam will make new rudders for about $5k (for this size), in about 4
weeks time, shipped from FL. A rebuild costs about almost that much. If you
wanted to do a rudder replacement it'd also be worth checking with
Southshore Yachts because they list some C&C rudders (with 4 week wait time
- I wonder if they're just contracting with Foss to make a template/design
they have).

A guy next to me in the boatyard with an older full keel, skeg protected
rudder is replacing his rudder with a Foss because his rudder was a mess -
the fiberglass skin cracked in multiple places and a prior owner tried to
fix it by fiberglassing over, but didn't grind back all the gelcoat and
fiberglassed over gelcoat in places.

-Patrick
1984 C&C Landfall 38
Seattle, WA

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 5:23 AM,  wrote:
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: David Knecht 
> To: CnC CnC discussion list 
> Cc:
> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 08:22:58 -0400
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement/repair
> Water in the rudder seems to be really common. My rudder was rebuilt
> before I bought the boat.  I think surveyors tend to overdo this as my
> metal also looked fine once the rudder was opened up.  I am curious about
> the foam in Josh’s pictures.  I would have thought it would keep water from
> accumulating inside if it was closed cell foam.  Was it actually wet?
> Also, I discovered last weekend that when my was rebuilt, they did not fill
> the interior with foam because we saw water weeping out of the trailing
> edge and when we drilled into the middle, a large stream of water drained
> out for about 15 minutes.  I am going to have the yard open a hole and fill
> the interior with foam.  The alternative to foam would be to drill a small
> hole every fall and drain it, then plug.Thoughts?  Dave
>
> Aries
> 1990 C&C 34+
> New London, CT
>
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement/repair

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

Water in the rudder seems to be really common. My rudder was rebuilt before I 
bought the boat.  I think surveyors tend to overdo this as my metal also looked 
fine once the rudder was opened up.  I am curious about the foam in Josh’s 
pictures.  I would have thought it would keep water from accumulating inside if 
it was closed cell foam.  Was it actually wet?  Also, I discovered last weekend 
that when my was rebuilt, they did not fill the interior with foam because we 
saw water weeping out of the trailing edge and when we drilled into the middle, 
a large stream of water drained out for about 15 minutes.  I am going to have 
the yard open a hole and fill the interior with foam.  The alternative to foam 
would be to drill a small hole every fall and drain it, then plug.Thoughts? 
 Dave

Aries
1990 C&C 34+
New London, CT



> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:41 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Great shots and very educational Josh - thanks for sharing.  Metal looked to 
> be in remarkably good shape.
> 
> John
> 
>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Rick Rohwer via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks for sharing the pictures Joh!  Very interesting.
>> 
>> Rick
>> Paikea 37+
>> Poulsbo, WA
>> 
>>> On Apr 18, 2016, at 9:17 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
>>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> My rebuild was ~$5k.  Seeing what the professionals do was definitely an 
>>> education.  Not hard, just a lot of work.
>>> 
>>> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8pEh5lnvP1yVUdWUDNxVGFUcDA 
>>> 
>>> Josh Muckley
>>> S/V Sea Hawk
>>> 1989 C&C 37+
>>> Solomons, MD
>>> 
>>> On Apr 18, 2016 10:11 PM, "Eugene Fodor via CnC-List" 
>>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>>> Trying to get an idea of the cost for rudder replacement or repair.  The 
>>> boat I'm close to purchasing has some brown drainage from the rudder after 
>>> drilling the bottom which tells me there is some corrosion in the steel 
>>> webbing. I'm handy unsure if this is better left to a marina shop or not 
>>> salvageable long term. Thoughts?
>>> 
>>> Gene
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> 
>>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you 
>>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All 
>>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> 
>>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you 
>>> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All 
>>> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
>> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
>> are greatly appreciated!
> 
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement/repair

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

Great shots and very educational Josh - thanks for sharing.  Metal looked to be 
in remarkably good shape.

John

> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Rick Rohwer via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for sharing the pictures Joh!  Very interesting.
> 
> Rick
> Paikea 37+
> Poulsbo, WA
> 
>> On Apr 18, 2016, at 9:17 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
>> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> My rebuild was ~$5k.  Seeing what the professionals do was definitely an 
>> education.  Not hard, just a lot of work.
>> 
>> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8pEh5lnvP1yVUdWUDNxVGFUcDA 
>> 
>> Josh Muckley
>> S/V Sea Hawk
>> 1989 C&C 37+
>> Solomons, MD
>> 
>> On Apr 18, 2016 10:11 PM, "Eugene Fodor via CnC-List" > > wrote:
>> Trying to get an idea of the cost for rudder replacement or repair.  The 
>> boat I'm close to purchasing has some brown drainage from the rudder after 
>> drilling the bottom which tells me there is some corrosion in the steel 
>> webbing. I'm handy unsure if this is better left to a marina shop or not 
>> salvageable long term. Thoughts?
>> 
>> Gene
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
>> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
>> are greatly appreciated!
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
>> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
>> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!

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Stus-List Rudder replacement/repair

[Rick Rohwer via CnC-List]

Thanks for sharing the pictures Joh!  Very interesting.

Rick
Paikea 37+
Poulsbo, WA

> On Apr 18, 2016, at 9:17 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> My rebuild was ~$5k.  Seeing what the professionals do was definitely an 
> education.  Not hard, just a lot of work.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B8pEh5lnvP1yVUdWUDNxVGFUcDA 
> 
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C&C 37+
> Solomons, MD
> 
> On Apr 18, 2016 10:11 PM, "Eugene Fodor via CnC-List"  > wrote:
> Trying to get an idea of the cost for rudder replacement or repair.  The boat 
> I'm close to purchasing has some brown drainage from the rudder after 
> drilling the bottom which tells me there is some corrosion in the steel 
> webbing. I'm handy unsure if this is better left to a marina shop or not 
> salvageable long term. Thoughts?
> 
> Gene
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!

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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

I seriously considered this on my 51.  Even had Rob design the new rudder.  In 
the end I decided that I couldn't justify the cost.

Why are you looking to change?

John


Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 18, 2016, at 12:14 PM, Brian Fry via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone replace their rudder on a 37/40 with a different model/shape?
> Got a decent quote on a replacement which is not an exact copy. Weighing the 
> pros and cons.
> 
> -- 
> Brian Fry
> S/V La Neige
> 1993 C&C 37/40XL
> HdG Maryland
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Ken Heaton via CnC-List]

Brian,

Did you get a quote from Southshore Yachts in Niagara-on-the-Lake?  They
have the original moulds and the CAN$ to US$ exchange is very much in your
favour right now. (30% discount).

http://southshoreyachts.com/

I seem to think Foss Foam Products of Florida may have the correct mould as
well.

http://newrudders.com/

Ken H.



On 18 March 2016 at 14:30, Brian Fry via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Rudder is in need of major repair. Got a quote for a replacement for less
> than a repair, but not an exact copy (they don't have a mold). Also 2/3 the
> cost of having a mold made and then a replacement made from that.
> I had drilled a dozen  holes to drain water over the winter to avoid
> freeze expansion causing more damage. Found many of the holes drilled had
> just voids behind them, no foam, others had a gritty white material that
> was saturated with water. Saw pictures here and elsewhere of same rudder
> repair needed.
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:21:42 -0400
> From: John Pennie 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
> Message-ID: <2c82d7c8-8e02-4d7f-aec5-d405a536d...@svpaws.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I seriously considered this on my 51.  Even had Rob design the new
> rudder.  In the end I decided that I couldn't justify the cost.
>
> Why are you looking to change?
>
> John
>
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>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Rjcasciato via CnC-List]

Just a thought:

Does CompuKeels in Wisconsin still exist?

 

They will provide the keel templates for almost any boat………they did have all
the C&C’s but wanted more performance so they sent a set of drawings from
which to make the templateslong time ago and really not much money
then……….couple hundred dollars or so.

 

Takes the mystery of conversion to NACA forms…..

 

Best,

 

Ron Casciato 

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Graham
Collins via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 6:53 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Graham Collins
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

 

Whoops, re-read Bruno's earlier email and realize we are talking the same
place.



Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2016-03-18 7:50 PM, Graham Collins via CnC-List wrote:

It is possible to do a DIY job to a NACA profile, it just takes some time to
plot the proper profiles out and use them as templates.  It was NOT a
trivial DIY job though, be sure of your abilities first.

As Ken mentioned, I did rebuild mine.  It was saturated, and cracked during
the winter.   When I pulled the skins off I was happy I'd decided to rebuild
as the welds holding the frame to the post were dramatically corroded.  I
had a new frame welded on, applied and shaped new foam, and put glass on
top.  Very happy with the result.  I kept the same outline shape (in case
anyone is thinking of turning me in to the PHRF folks...), but shaped it to
NACA foils.  It was not shaped like that before.  Very happy with the
results.

Within Canada there is also Competition Composites (AKA Phil's Foils) in
Ottawa.  They will re-use the post if you want and will CNC cut the profile
in the foam, so super accurate.



Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2016-03-18 4:46 PM, Bruno Lachance via CnC-List wrote:

Doing the research about replacement/repair and different profiles of
rudders i became quite obsessed with the importance of the design and
precision of the profile (ref. NACA profiles).
 
So a DIY job was quickly out of question. The boat is not a 40 kts foiler
but i do race the boat and wanted a nice rudder.
 
The small local yard quote was over 2500$ for a complete rebuild, that would
have been very ok, but still an eyeball job. At this point i decided to go
all the way crazy and give the job to the pros. Don't regret it, i almost
cried when i opened the box it was so beutiful!
 
There is a lot of good info on their website, even a video of the
fabrication process.
 
I have now a keel fairing job on my to do list, but not a priority at this
point.
 
Bruno Lachance
C&C 33mkII 87' Bécassine
New-Richmond, Qc
 


  _  


To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:55:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
CC: amira...@bellaliant.net

Thanks for the info about your rudder replacement,Bruno. Good company to
keep in mind if I ever need to do mine.  Better to deal with a Canadian
company with our dollar being so low right now.

 

Mike Amirault

C&C33ii Lovely Cruise

SMSC St Margarets Bay, NS


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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Jim Reinardy via CnC-List]

For those interested in the DIY method, a friend of mine pretty thoroughly 
documented a rudder rebuild he did on his J-30 here:  
http://j30hullabaloo.blogspot.com/  It looked brand new when he got done and 
has held up well.

Jim Reinardy
C&C 30-2 “Firewater”
Milwaukee, WI




Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

From: Bill Coleman via CnC-List<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 2:49 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Bill Coleman<mailto:colt...@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

Guilty as charged.  Maybe Infamously would be more appropriate.

I think we tend to feel that we have to fix these boats to factory standards 
when we get them, but in reality as they get older, they get more customized, 
which is not a bad thing. I don’t think anyone would want to replace  their 
traveler with an original Schaffer Traveler when you could have a nice Harken 
instead –

Back in the early eighties I was re-doing C&C rudders locally for a number of 
models, as it became widely understood that more control was needed, and they 
were modified to be less wide but deeper. By that, I mean just taking the 
original rudders, and cutting the framework off and welding new foils on, 
narrower and deeper, nothing else on my part. Interestingly, my father was 
sailing on a C&C 39 at the time, owned by an even older curmudgeon (my dad was 
NOT a curmudgeon)  who was in the market for a new rudder.  I offered to my dad 
that I would do Mearl’s  for free, and he declined, saying that “if anything at 
all was not right, he would never hear the end of it.”   Fast forward 18 years, 
I am now the owner of that very same 39, hauling it out in October to find I 
was missing nearly half that rudder that had been rebuilt at Bruckman’s.  I 
rebuilt it in 14 Gauge SS skin and moved the shaft back 2 ½” for better 
balance. A few years later I removed it and cut the corners off and made it 
elliptical, just because in my mind it seemed a less turbulent shape.  It is 
completely neutral in weight.  On  high to low reaches I can take my hands off 
and it sails itself.  And sorry,  no, I am not interested in making any, just 
mentioning this as another option. In my mind, an epoxy (or Polyester) to SS 
joint is eventually going to leak, they just do not stick to each other very 
well.

Another on/off lister from Toronto/BC had Bob Perry do him a design for a 39 
which looked sweet.  That rudder snapped off at the exit point,  (no reflection 
on Perry) so there is no need in my mentioning who fabricated that one.



Bill Coleman

C&C 39 Erie, PA



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Della Barba, 
Joe via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 2:27 PM
To: 'cnc-list@cnc-list.com'
Cc: Della Barba, Joe
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement



I friend of mine took his rudder home over the winter, cut a skin off, scooped 
all the rotten foam out, refilled it with an epoxy-microballon mix, and glued 
the skin back on. YMMV, no idea if this is the best way, but it was cheap.

Also someone famously made an all-stainless rudder.



Joe

Coquina





From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of John Pennie 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 2:22 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: John Pennie
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement



When I was working with Rob on the 51, he freely admitted that rudder design 
back then was more art than science.  That's not to say slap anything on but I 
wouldn't feel obliged to duplicate your existing rudder to perfection if the 
mold isn't available.



On the post and structure inside the rudder you really won't know until the 
skins are removed and you get to see it.  Hopefully all is fine but given your 
comments...  Who knows, maybe you get to have the fun of deciding on a 
stainless vs. Carbon post! Is there a local designer you can speak with or a 
yard that frequently handles such work?



Good luck and sorry to hear of the problem.



John











Sent from my iPad


On Mar 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Brian Fry via CnC-List  
wrote:

Rudder is in need of major repair. Got a quote for a replacement for less than 
a repair, but not an exact copy (they don't have a mold). Also 2/3 the cost of 
having a mold made and then a replacement made from that.

I had drilled a dozen  holes to drain water over the winter to avoid freeze 
expansion causing more damage. Found many of the holes drilled had just voids 
behind them, no foam, others had a gritty white material that was saturated 
with water. Saw pictures here and elsewhere of same rudder repair needed.



Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:21:42 -0400
From: John Pennie 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
Message-ID: <2c82d7c8-8e02-4d7f-aec5-d405a536d...@svpaws.net>
Content-

Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[mike amirault via CnC-List]

Thanks for the info about your rudder replacement,Bruno. Good company to keep 
in mind if I ever need to do mine.  Better to deal with a Canadian company with 
our dollar being so low right now.

Mike Amirault
C&C33ii Lovely Cruise
SMSC St Margarets Bay, NS___

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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Ken Heaton via CnC-List]

The stock 37/40  rudder is a pretty close fit at the top, both between the
rudder top and hull when hard over, and between the top section of the
rudder and the stubby skeg in front if it.  You'd want to be sure before
you bought one.

Is your existing rudder saturated with water?  Many people have had
rebuilds done by removing one skin, putting in new foam and putting the
skin back.  They have generally found the stainless steel shaft and
internal armature to be sound.  I'm sure there are threads on the list
about it.

Graham (on the list) did the rudder on his C&C 35 a few years ago.  He'll
likely chime in soon.

Ken H.

On 18 March 2016 at 13:14, Brian Fry via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Has anyone replace their rudder on a 37/40 with a different model/shape?
> Got a decent quote on a replacement which is not an exact copy. Weighing
> the pros and cons.
>
> --
> Brian Fry
> S/V La Neige
> 1993 C&C 37/40XL
> HdG Maryland
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
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>
>
>
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Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Brian Fry via CnC-List]

Has anyone replace their rudder on a 37/40 with a different model/shape?
Got a decent quote on a replacement which is not an exact copy. Weighing
the pros and cons.

-- 
Brian Fry
S/V La Neige
1993 C&C 37/40XL
HdG Maryland
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Graham Collins via CnC-List]

It is possible to do a DIY job to a NACA profile, it just takes some 
time to plot the proper profiles out and use them as templates.  It was 
NOT a trivial DIY job though, be sure of your abilities first.


As Ken mentioned, I did rebuild mine.  It was saturated, and cracked 
during the winter.   When I pulled the skins off I was happy I'd decided 
to rebuild as the welds holding the frame to the post were dramatically 
corroded.  I had a new frame welded on, applied and shaped new foam, and 
put glass on top.  Very happy with the result. I kept the same outline 
shape (in case anyone is thinking of turning me in to the PHRF 
folks...), but shaped it to NACA foils.  It was not shaped like that 
before.  Very happy with the results.


Within Canada there is also Competition Composites (AKA Phil's Foils) in 
Ottawa.  They will re-use the post if you want and will CNC cut the 
profile in the foam, so super accurate.


Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2016-03-18 4:46 PM, Bruno Lachance via CnC-List wrote:
Doing the research about replacement/repair and different profiles of 
rudders i became quite obsessed with the importance of the design and 
precision of the profile (ref. NACA profiles).


So a DIY job was quickly out of question. The boat is not a 40 kts 
foiler but i do race the boat and wanted a nice rudder.


The small local yard quote was over 2500$ for a complete rebuild, that 
would have been very ok, but still an eyeball job. At this point i 
decided to go all the way crazy and give the job to the pros. Don't 
regret it, i almost cried when i opened the box it was so beutiful!


There is a lot of good info on their website, even a video of the 
fabrication process.


I have now a keel fairing job on my to do list, but not a priority at 
this point.


Bruno Lachance
C&C 33mkII 87' Bécassine
New-Richmond, Qc


To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:55:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
CC: amira...@bellaliant.net

Thanks for the info about your rudder replacement,Bruno. Good company 
to keep in mind if I ever need to do mine.  Better to deal with a 
Canadian company with our dollar being so low right now.

Mike Amirault
C&C33ii Lovely Cruise
SMSC St Margarets Bay, NS

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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Bruno Lachance via CnC-List]

I had mine redone  last year for my 33 mkII by Competition composite, Ontario. 
They re used the post and fabricated a new one using the original plan form of 
the rudder from C&C (ordered at the maritime museum) . The shape was slightly 
optimized by their designer since the blade could be a bit thinner.
 
The construction is: Divinicell foam core shaped to the foil design with a 
"computer assisted milling machine" then wrapped with fiberglass and epoxy 
resin. (vacuum bagged). It is ligher than original. : 
http://www.fastcomposites.ca/site/
 
The construction seemed superior to me compared to "original" rudder sold by 
Southshore yacht and the price was lower including the shipping costs.
 
I'm very pleased with the result, the shape and finish is perfect and i have 
full confidence in the strenht of the blade. The feel at the helm is superb, i 
can see the difference with my older rudder than hab been repaired and had lost 
its symetrie. I d'ont feel any turbulence now. :)
 
So, a good experience on my side with the company. no affiliation.
 
Bruno Lachance
Bécassine, 33 mkII 87'
New Richmond, Qc.
 
 
 
 
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:22:16 -0400
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
CC: dainyr...@icloud.com; biker...@yahoo.com

While not on a 37/40, I replaced my rudder a long time ago on my LF38.  
Southshore Yachts made it for me...
Bob

Sent from my iPhone, Bob Boyer
On Mar 18, 2016, at 12:14 PM, Brian Fry via CnC-List  
wrote:

Has anyone replace their rudder on a 37/40 with a different model/shape?Got a 
decent quote on a replacement which is not an exact copy. Weighing the pros and 
cons.
-- 
Brian FryS/V La Neige1993 C&C 37/40XLHdG Maryland


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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

While not on a 37/40, I replaced my rudder a long time ago on my LF38.  
Southshore Yachts made it for me...

Bob

Sent from my iPhone, Bob Boyer

> On Mar 18, 2016, at 12:14 PM, Brian Fry via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Has anyone replace their rudder on a 37/40 with a different model/shape?
> Got a decent quote on a replacement which is not an exact copy. Weighing the 
> pros and cons.
> 
> -- 
> Brian Fry
> S/V La Neige
> 1993 C&C 37/40XL
> HdG Maryland
> ___
> 
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
> of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
> 
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Bruno Lachance via CnC-List]

Doing the research about replacement/repair and different profiles of rudders i 
became quite obsessed with the importance of the design and precision of the 
profile (ref. NACA profiles).
 
So a DIY job was quickly out of question. The boat is not a 40 kts foiler but i 
do race the boat and wanted a nice rudder.
 
The small local yard quote was over 2500$ for a complete rebuild, that would 
have been very ok, but still an eyeball job. At this point i decided to go all 
the way crazy and give the job to the pros. Don't regret it, i almost cried 
when i opened the box it was so beutiful!
 
There is a lot of good info on their website, even a video of the fabrication 
process.
 
I have now a keel fairing job on my to do list, but not a priority at this 
point.
 
Bruno Lachance
C&C 33mkII 87' Bécassine
New-Richmond, Qc
 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:55:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
CC: amira...@bellaliant.net





Thanks for the info about your rudder replacement,Bruno. Good company to 
keep in mind if I ever need to do mine.  Better to deal with a Canadian 
company with our dollar being so low right now.
 
Mike Amirault
C&C33ii Lovely Cruise
SMSC St Margarets Bay, NS

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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

I friend of mine took his rudder home over the winter, cut a skin off, scooped 
all the rotten foam out, refilled it with an epoxy-microballon mix, and glued 
the skin back on. YMMV, no idea if this is the best way, but it was cheap.
Also someone famously made an all-stainless rudder.

Joe
Coquina


From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of John Pennie 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 2:22 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: John Pennie
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

When I was working with Rob on the 51, he freely admitted that rudder design 
back then was more art than science.  That's not to say slap anything on but I 
wouldn't feel obliged to duplicate your existing rudder to perfection if the 
mold isn't available.

On the post and structure inside the rudder you really won't know until the 
skins are removed and you get to see it.  Hopefully all is fine but given your 
comments...  Who knows, maybe you get to have the fun of deciding on a 
stainless vs. Carbon post! Is there a local designer you can speak with or a 
yard that frequently handles such work?

Good luck and sorry to hear of the problem.

John






Sent from my iPad

On Mar 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Brian Fry via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Rudder is in need of major repair. Got a quote for a replacement for less than 
a repair, but not an exact copy (they don't have a mold). Also 2/3 the cost of 
having a mold made and then a replacement made from that.
I had drilled a dozen  holes to drain water over the winter to avoid freeze 
expansion causing more damage. Found many of the holes drilled had just voids 
behind them, no foam, others had a gritty white material that was saturated 
with water. Saw pictures here and elsewhere of same rudder repair needed.

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:21:42 -0400
From: John Pennie mailto:j...@svpaws.net>>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
Message-ID: 
<2c82d7c8-8e02-4d7f-aec5-d405a536d...@svpaws.net<mailto:2c82d7c8-8e02-4d7f-aec5-d405a536d...@svpaws.net>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I seriously considered this on my 51.  Even had Rob design the new rudder.  In 
the end I decided that I couldn't justify the cost.

Why are you looking to change?

John
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Guilty as charged.  Maybe Infamously would be more appropriate.

I think we tend to feel that we have to fix these boats to factory standards 
when we get them, but in reality as they get older, they get more customized, 
which is not a bad thing. I don’t think anyone would want to replace  their 
traveler with an original Schaffer Traveler when you could have a nice Harken 
instead – 

Back in the early eighties I was re-doing C&C rudders locally for a number of 
models, as it became widely understood that more control was needed, and they 
were modified to be less wide but deeper. By that, I mean just taking the 
original rudders, and cutting the framework off and welding new foils on, 
narrower and deeper, nothing else on my part. Interestingly, my father was 
sailing on a C&C 39 at the time, owned by an even older curmudgeon (my dad was 
NOT a curmudgeon)  who was in the market for a new rudder.  I offered to my dad 
that I would do Mearl’s  for free, and he declined, saying that “if anything at 
all was not right, he would never hear the end of it.”   Fast forward 18 years, 
I am now the owner of that very same 39, hauling it out in October to find I 
was missing nearly half that rudder that had been rebuilt at Bruckman’s.  I 
rebuilt it in 14 Gauge SS skin and moved the shaft back 2 ½” for better 
balance. A few years later I removed it and cut the corners off and made it 
elliptical, just because in my mind it seemed a less turbulent shape.  It is 
completely neutral in weight.  On  high to low reaches I can take my hands off 
and it sails itself.  And sorry,  no, I am not interested in making any, just 
mentioning this as another option. In my mind, an epoxy (or Polyester) to SS 
joint is eventually going to leak, they just do not stick to each other very 
well.

Another on/off lister from Toronto/BC had Bob Perry do him a design for a 39 
which looked sweet.  That rudder snapped off at the exit point,  (no reflection 
on Perry) so there is no need in my mentioning who fabricated that one.

 

Bill Coleman

C&C 39 Erie, PA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Della Barba, 
Joe via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 2:27 PM
To: 'cnc-list@cnc-list.com'
Cc: Della Barba, Joe
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

 

I friend of mine took his rudder home over the winter, cut a skin off, scooped 
all the rotten foam out, refilled it with an epoxy-microballon mix, and glued 
the skin back on. YMMV, no idea if this is the best way, but it was cheap.

Also someone famously made an all-stainless rudder.

 

Joe

Coquina

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of John Pennie 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 2:22 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: John Pennie
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

 

When I was working with Rob on the 51, he freely admitted that rudder design 
back then was more art than science.  That's not to say slap anything on but I 
wouldn't feel obliged to duplicate your existing rudder to perfection if the 
mold isn't available.

 

On the post and structure inside the rudder you really won't know until the 
skins are removed and you get to see it.  Hopefully all is fine but given your 
comments...  Who knows, maybe you get to have the fun of deciding on a 
stainless vs. Carbon post! Is there a local designer you can speak with or a 
yard that frequently handles such work?

 

Good luck and sorry to hear of the problem.

 

John

 

 

 

 



Sent from my iPad


On Mar 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Brian Fry via CnC-List  
wrote:

Rudder is in need of major repair. Got a quote for a replacement for less than 
a repair, but not an exact copy (they don't have a mold). Also 2/3 the cost of 
having a mold made and then a replacement made from that.

I had drilled a dozen  holes to drain water over the winter to avoid freeze 
expansion causing more damage. Found many of the holes drilled had just voids 
behind them, no foam, others had a gritty white material that was saturated 
with water. Saw pictures here and elsewhere of same rudder repair needed.

 

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:21:42 -0400
From: John Pennie 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
Message-ID: <2c82d7c8-8e02-4d7f-aec5-d405a536d...@svpaws.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I seriously considered this on my 51.  Even had Rob design the new rudder.  In 
the end I decided that I couldn't justify the cost.

Why are you looking to change?

John

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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Brian Fry via CnC-List]

Rudder is in need of major repair. Got a quote for a replacement for less
than a repair, but not an exact copy (they don't have a mold). Also 2/3 the
cost of having a mold made and then a replacement made from that.
I had drilled a dozen  holes to drain water over the winter to avoid freeze
expansion causing more damage. Found many of the holes drilled had just
voids behind them, no foam, others had a gritty white material that was
saturated with water. Saw pictures here and elsewhere of same rudder repair
needed.

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:21:42 -0400
From: John Pennie 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
Message-ID: <2c82d7c8-8e02-4d7f-aec5-d405a536d...@svpaws.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I seriously considered this on my 51.  Even had Rob design the new rudder.
In the end I decided that I couldn't justify the cost.

Why are you looking to change?

John
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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

When I was working with Rob on the 51, he freely admitted that rudder design 
back then was more art than science.  That's not to say slap anything on but I 
wouldn't feel obliged to duplicate your existing rudder to perfection if the 
mold isn't available.

On the post and structure inside the rudder you really won't know until the 
skins are removed and you get to see it.  Hopefully all is fine but given your 
comments...  Who knows, maybe you get to have the fun of deciding on a 
stainless vs. Carbon post! Is there a local designer you can speak with or a 
yard that frequently handles such work?

Good luck and sorry to hear of the problem.

John






Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 18, 2016, at 1:30 PM, Brian Fry via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Rudder is in need of major repair. Got a quote for a replacement for less 
> than a repair, but not an exact copy (they don't have a mold). Also 2/3 the 
> cost of having a mold made and then a replacement made from that.
> I had drilled a dozen  holes to drain water over the winter to avoid freeze 
> expansion causing more damage. Found many of the holes drilled had just voids 
> behind them, no foam, others had a gritty white material that was saturated 
> with water. Saw pictures here and elsewhere of same rudder repair needed.
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:21:42 -0400
> From: John Pennie 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
> Message-ID: <2c82d7c8-8e02-4d7f-aec5-d405a536d...@svpaws.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> I seriously considered this on my 51.  Even had Rob design the new rudder.  
> In the end I decided that I couldn't justify the cost.
> 
> Why are you looking to change?
> 
> John
> ___
> 
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
> of page at:
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Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

In case this has not been mentioned already Southshore Yachts (
http://southshoreyachts.com/) out of Virgil, Ontario may have a brand new 
original rudder for your boat or have the original design..  It's pricey 
but it's the real thing and the job just becomes a part swap.. 

Good luck with it. 

Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA

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Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement

[Graham Collins via CnC-List]

Whoops, re-read Bruno's earlier email and realize we are talking the 
same place.


Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2016-03-18 7:50 PM, Graham Collins via CnC-List wrote:
It is possible to do a DIY job to a NACA profile, it just takes some 
time to plot the proper profiles out and use them as templates.  It 
was NOT a trivial DIY job though, be sure of your abilities first.


As Ken mentioned, I did rebuild mine.  It was saturated, and cracked 
during the winter.   When I pulled the skins off I was happy I'd 
decided to rebuild as the welds holding the frame to the post were 
dramatically corroded.  I had a new frame welded on, applied and 
shaped new foam, and put glass on top.  Very happy with the result.  I 
kept the same outline shape (in case anyone is thinking of turning me 
in to the PHRF folks...), but shaped it to NACA foils.  It was not 
shaped like that before.  Very happy with the results.


Within Canada there is also Competition Composites (AKA Phil's Foils) 
in Ottawa.  They will re-use the post if you want and will CNC cut the 
profile in the foam, so super accurate.

Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11
On 2016-03-18 4:46 PM, Bruno Lachance via CnC-List wrote:
Doing the research about replacement/repair and different profiles of 
rudders i became quite obsessed with the importance of the design and 
precision of the profile (ref. NACA profiles).


So a DIY job was quickly out of question. The boat is not a 40 kts 
foiler but i do race the boat and wanted a nice rudder.


The small local yard quote was over 2500$ for a complete rebuild, 
that would have been very ok, but still an eyeball job. At this point 
i decided to go all the way crazy and give the job to the pros. Don't 
regret it, i almost cried when i opened the box it was so beutiful!


There is a lot of good info on their website, even a video of the 
fabrication process.


I have now a keel fairing job on my to do list, but not a priority at 
this point.


Bruno Lachance
C&C 33mkII 87' Bécassine
New-Richmond, Qc


To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:55:22 -0300
Subject: Re: Stus-List Rudder replacement
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
CC: amira...@bellaliant.net

Thanks for the info about your rudder replacement,Bruno. Good company 
to keep in mind if I ever need to do mine.  Better to deal with a 
Canadian company with our dollar being so low right now.

Mike Amirault
C&C33ii Lovely Cruise
SMSC St Margarets Bay, NS

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