Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

I would suggest taking a couple of Quaaludes until you relax a bit, and that 
anxiety goes away. I can only imagine the feeling you must have had when he 
rolled that Asymmetrical out and just left you in the dust. But probably what 
will happen, is that there are going to be questions about Sprint length, The 
Asymmetrical, and whether you can jump back and forth between Asymmetrical and 
Symmetrical without an additional penalty. Then they might change the rules 
that may make him sad.  On our fleet, they allowed 12in, until I brought it up 
that that didn't take into account different lengths of boats, and the amount 
of space you need for an asymmetric furler on a larger boat. Then they made it 
a percentage of length. But only to a certain length.  

Also,  how often do you have triangles, which it sounds like this race was?. in 
our local fleet, we used to have triangles equally interspersed with windward 
leeward's, but then whoever runs the fleet changed it mostly to Windward 
Leeward's, which screws everything up for our type of boats. Obviously the 
people running ours have newer boats like J boats and Shocks and that sort of 
thing. If you can count on triangles, The Asymmetrical might make sense. 
On my 39, we got the biggest bang for the buck by adding a foot onto the boom, 
and a large Roach. That really helped downwind and off the wind. That only cost 
6 seconds, but was well worth it.

Bill Coleman
Erie Pa

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:23 PM
To: cnc-list
Cc: Randy Stafford
Subject: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

Listers-

A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race 
despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet 
again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences).  It 
was an eye-opening demonstration.

So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on a 
30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, 
and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, 
I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be 
able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using 
a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler.

Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course 
wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice or 
recommendations?

Thanks,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C&C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO
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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Matt Wolford via CnC-List]

Adding to Michael’s point regarding the loading, I should have added in my note 
to Randy that we always use a reaching strut with the pole set-up.  The loads 
are high and the guy sheeting angle really bad.

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Michael Brown via 
CnC-List
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 2:52 PM
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

 

I have been flying both sym and asym spinnakers on Windburn for the last few 
years.

A small tack point has been added on the bow forward of everything for the 
asym. I found

that using an oversized pole works better, maybe a C&C 30-1 thing. Pulling the 
pole back

a bit and getting some more chute in front generates way more power than 
centerline

tacking. Enough of a difference to make up for sailing a bit deeper.

 

The largest chutes are 195%, about a 26.5' foot on the asym, and 26.3' max 
girth on the sym.

 

The load on the guy is high so the line runs through a snatch block to the 
primary winch.

It is a Samson line with a no stretch core, normal good double braid was a 
problem.

At higher wind speeds the force back through the spinnaker pole has to be 
hundreds of

pounds. I upgraded the spin track and car to the midsize Harken series. Even 
with that

it is dicey adjusting the height while flying. The Torlon bearings appear to go 
slightly

oval each season so that is on the winter maintence replace list.

 

When flying the asym at 100 degrees AWA or tighter in heavier winds the genoa 
does not

depower the spinnaker for take down. If it gets even slightly away from you it 
will fill, sometimes

pretty violently.

 

I am glad the 30-1 is so heavily over built.


Michael Brown

Windburn

C&C 30-1






From: Randy Stafford mailto:randal.staff...@icloud.com> > 
To: cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: 5/15/2020 12:22 PM 
Subject: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I 

Listers- 

A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race 
despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet 
again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences).  It 
was an eye-opening demonstration. 

So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on a 
30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, 
and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, 
I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be 
able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using 
a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler. 

Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course 
wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice or 
recommendations? 

Thanks, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C&C 30 MK I #79 
Ken Caryl, CO 

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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Jeffrey Nelson via CnC-List]

Following this closely.
Generally, the C&C 30 with it's smallish main covering the largish 
headsail doesn't go downwind fast.  Getting a sym spin out from behind
the main greatly improves it's downwind speed.  I don't see where an 
Asym would improve that scenario much at all, especially without a sprit 
pole.
The angles would be near what you'd have to sail to keep a headsail 
full...albeit there would be a lot more of it in a light wind.


Generally, hoisting and dousing the spin doesn't take my team very long 
at all. Hoist would definitely be equivalent to unfurling. Light wind douses
into the bag on the foredeck or in moderate winds into the cockpit 
behind the main and headsails is pretty quick.  Does take some practice tho.


If you've got light wind reaching a drifter/asym would do you great 
gains.  C&C 30 has the shortest mast and highest ballest ratio to any

of the C&C's, so it's never gonna be a light wind competative boat.

Food for thought.

Cheers,
   Jeff Nelson
   Muir Caileag
   C&C 30
   Armdale Y.C.

On 5/15/2020 2:05 PM, Donald Kern via CnC-List wrote:

Randy,

Most PHRF rating organizations will adjust (negatively) your rating 
for adding a tack point forward of the "J" measurement of the boat. 
You may receive a credit for both a retrofit application and due to a 
smaller sail area for a spinnaker - depends on the rating rules for 
your PHRF organization.  Also an asymmetrical spinnaker is a free fly 
sail, thus adding a hard furler is not done for an asym.  I do not 
understand why you stated "So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the 
asym using a sock." That should be an option. Lastly, the 30 Mk1 was 
designed to go deep downwind with a symmetrical spinnaker, which would 
have a greater sail area projected to windward an inherently faster 
than a asym rig deep downwind.  The plus side that an asym would give 
your 30 Mk1 would be on reaching legs.  Hope this helps.


Don Kern
Fireball C&C35 Mk2
Bristol, RI
Commo. PHRF-NB



--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

I have been flying both sym and asym spinnakers on Windburn for the last few 
years.
A small tack point has been added on the bow forward of everything for the 
asym. I found
that using an oversized pole works better, maybe a C&C 30-1 thing. Pulling the 
pole back
a bit and getting some more chute in front generates way more power than 
centerline
tacking. Enough of a difference to make up for sailing a bit deeper.


The largest chutes are 195%, about a 26.5' foot on the asym, and 26.3' max 
girth on the sym.


The load on the guy is high so the line runs through a snatch block to the 
primary winch.
It is a Samson line with a no stretch core, normal good double braid was a 
problem.
At higher wind speeds the force back through the spinnaker pole has to be 
hundreds of
pounds. I upgraded the spin track and car to the midsize Harken series. Even 
with that
it is dicey adjusting the height while flying. The Torlon bearings appear to go 
slightly
oval each season so that is on the winter maintence replace list.


When flying the asym at 100 degrees AWA or tighter in heavier winds the genoa 
does not
depower the spinnaker for take down. If it gets even slightly away from you it 
will fill, sometimes
pretty violently.


I am glad the 30-1 is so heavily over built.

Michael Brown

Windburn
C&C 30-1





 From:   Randy Stafford  
 To:   cnc-list  
 Sent:   5/15/2020 12:22 PM 
 Subject:   Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I 

Listers- 
 
A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race 
despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet 
again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences).  It 
was an eye-opening demonstration. 
 
So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on a 
30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, 
and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, 
I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be 
able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using 
a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler. 
 
Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course 
wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice or 
recommendations? 
 
Thanks, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C&C 30 MK I #79 
Ken Caryl, CO 
 
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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Matt Wolford via CnC-List]

No wonder you got spanked.

 

Yes, try the chute first before making any big changes.  I only use my asym for 
closer hauled stuff 65 to 110 range.  Deeper than that and the big chute comes 
out.

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Randy Stafford via 
CnC-List
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 2:18 PM
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Randy Stafford 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

 

Hi Don,

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

My RSA hasn't published rating rules on retrofit sprits and asyms etc. - it’s 
new territory for them.

 

It would seem that people do use top-down furlers for asyms: see for example 
https://www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/the-top-5-reasons-top-down-spinnaker-furlers-are-a.

 

I can shackle an asym tack line block to the spare headsail shack on the stem, 
and hoist/douse the asym using a sock.  It just might not be as fast as using a 
furler like my competitor does.

 

When the Ranger 28 with the asym beat me off-wind Wednesday night, I was under 
jib and main, not my symmetrical chute.  It was a broad reach (AWA ~140) to the 
next mark, then a beam reach to the last mark.

 

The responses from you and Mike Hoyt make me think I should try going 
head-to-head with him while flying my symmetrical spinnaker - which of course 
is a reasonable suggestion, and one that would save me money :)  I’ll still be 
at a disadvantage in sail setting speed because he has furlers and I don’t.  
But I should try that first.

 

Cheers,

Randy





On May 15, 2020, at 11:05 AM, Donald Kern via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

 

Randy,

Most PHRF rating organizations will adjust (negatively) your rating for adding 
a tack point forward of the "J" measurement of the boat. You may receive a 
credit for both a retrofit application and due to a smaller sail area for a 
spinnaker - depends on the rating rules for your PHRF organization.  Also an 
asymmetrical spinnaker is a free fly sail, thus adding a hard furler is not 
done for an asym.  I do not understand why you stated "So I can’t just shackle 
an asym tack line block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and 
hoist/douse the asym using a sock." That should be an option. Lastly, the 30 
Mk1 was designed to go deep downwind with a symmetrical spinnaker, which would 
have a greater sail area projected to windward an inherently faster than a asym 
rig deep downwind.  The plus side that an asym would give your 30 Mk1 would be 
on reaching legs.  Hope this helps.

Don Kern
Fireball C&C35 Mk2
Bristol, RI
Commo. PHRF-NB


On 5/15/2020 12:22 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List wrote:



Listers-

A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race 
despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet 
again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences).  It 
was an eye-opening demonstration.

So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on a 
30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, 
and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, 
I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be 
able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using 
a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler.

Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course 
wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice or 
recommendations?

Thanks,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C&C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO
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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray



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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

 

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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Hi Don,

Thanks for the reply.

My RSA hasn't published rating rules on retrofit sprits and asyms etc. - it’s 
new territory for them.

It would seem that people do use top-down furlers for asyms: see for example 
https://www.quantumsails.com/en/resources-and-expertise/articles/the-top-5-reasons-top-down-spinnaker-furlers-are-a
 
.

I can shackle an asym tack line block to the spare headsail shack on the stem, 
and hoist/douse the asym using a sock.  It just might not be as fast as using a 
furler like my competitor does.

When the Ranger 28 with the asym beat me off-wind Wednesday night, I was under 
jib and main, not my symmetrical chute.  It was a broad reach (AWA ~140) to the 
next mark, then a beam reach to the last mark.

The responses from you and Mike Hoyt make me think I should try going 
head-to-head with him while flying my symmetrical spinnaker - which of course 
is a reasonable suggestion, and one that would save me money :)  I’ll still be 
at a disadvantage in sail setting speed because he has furlers and I don’t.  
But I should try that first.

Cheers,
Randy

> On May 15, 2020, at 11:05 AM, Donald Kern via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Randy,
> 
> Most PHRF rating organizations will adjust (negatively) your rating for 
> adding a tack point forward of the "J" measurement of the boat. You may 
> receive a credit for both a retrofit application and due to a smaller sail 
> area for a spinnaker - depends on the rating rules for your PHRF 
> organization.  Also an asymmetrical spinnaker is a free fly sail, thus adding 
> a hard furler is not done for an asym.  I do not understand why you stated 
> "So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line block to the spare headsail 
> shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using a sock." That should be 
> an option. Lastly, the 30 Mk1 was designed to go deep downwind with a 
> symmetrical spinnaker, which would have a greater sail area projected to 
> windward an inherently faster than a asym rig deep downwind.  The plus side 
> that an asym would give your 30 Mk1 would be on reaching legs.  Hope this 
> helps.
> 
> Don Kern
> Fireball C&C35 Mk2
> Bristol, RI
> Commo. PHRF-NB
> 
> 
> On 5/15/2020 12:22 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List wrote:
>> Listers-
>> 
>> A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
>> top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him 
>> to the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and 
>> dropped me like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a 
>> one-hour race despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating 
>> (demonstrating yet again that ratings don’t necessarily account for 
>> performance differences).  It was an eye-opening demonstration.
>> 
>> So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on 
>> a 30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line 
>> block, and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this 
>> Ranger 28, I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the 
>> asym) to be able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an 
>> asym tack line block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and 
>> hoist/douse the asym using a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem 
>> to accommodate a furler.
>> 
>> Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
>> bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
>> some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of 
>> course wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice 
>> or recommendations?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Randy Stafford
>> S/V Grenadine
>> C&C 30 MK I #79
>> Ken Caryl, CO
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Randy,

I added a Selden sprit to a dock neighbor's Peterson 37.  In our region, he
was able to add a certain length without penalty.  We marked the maximum
allowed extension.  Your PHRF authority may be different.  The racing
success of the boat didn't change substantially.

Have you strenuously analyzed the adjustments in your PHRF bylaws for any
relief, cheats, hacks, etc.?

If you change to a furling headsail, will you get a credit?  I carry a +6
second roller furler credit on Touche'.  Personally, I don't think it's
worth the decrease in sail area.  I had to cut my racing headsail down to
fit the furler.  C&C's are primarily headsail driven.  You'd be decreasing
your main engine.  On the other hand, on a long downwind distance race
carrying a chute, the 6 seconds comes in handy.  Your races are too short
to benefit from that.

If you decide to go asym, I think a sock is the way to go if you have
enough crew to manage it.

Can you add a plate or fitting onto the front of your bow chain plate for
the tack point?

Dennis C.

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 11:23 AM Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Listers-
>
> A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a
> top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him
> to the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and
> dropped me like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in
> a one-hour race despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted
> rating (demonstrating yet again that ratings don’t necessarily account for
> performance differences).  It was an eye-opening demonstration.
>
> So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one
> on a 30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack
> line block, and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with
> this Ranger 28, I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one
> for the asym) to be able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just
> shackle an asym tack line block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem,
> and hoist/douse the asym using a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the
> stem to accommodate a furler.
>
> Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or
> bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did
> some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of
> course wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any
> advice or recommendations?
>
> Thanks,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C&C 30 MK I #79
> Ken Caryl, CO
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>

-- 
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA
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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Hi Matt,

What I mean is my boat has a spinnaker pole, mast ring on track, topping lift, 
pole downhaul deck hardware, etc.  What do you mean pole gizmos?  :)

Interesting that you use your spin pole at the tack of your asym if I 
understood correctly.  Can you keep it low enough with the pole downhaul?  My 
spin pole doesn’t extend forward of the stem - I can dip gybe with it.

Cheers,
Randy

> On May 15, 2020, at 11:01 AM, Matt Wolford via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Randy:
> 
>   What do you mean when you say "rigged"?  I have an asym, but I just use 
> my spin pole set all the way forward and as low as possible.  Do you have one 
> of those pole gizmos?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Randy Stafford 
> via CnC-List
> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:36 PM
> To: cnc-list 
> Cc: Randy Stafford 
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> Yes Grenadine is rigged for symmetrical spinnaker and I fly it in some races. 
>  I’m still at a disadvantage in speed of setting sails without furlers.
> 
> I would be surprised if TSL would need to be greater than 13.5’!
> 
> Cheers,
> Randy
> 
>> On May 15, 2020, at 10:28 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Randy
>> 
>> You may take a rating hit for having a sprit on the boat for this.  The 
>> measurement will be Total Sprit Length (TSL) and if that exceeds J there is 
>> usually an adjustment.
>> 
>> Have you considered a symmetrical spinnaker?  The 30 was designed for one 
>> and the downwind angles would clobber a Ranger 28 flying an asym tacked at 
>> bow.
>> 
>> Regards
>> 
>> Mike Hoyt
>> Persistence
>> Halifax, NS
>> 
>> -----Original Message-
>> From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Randy Stafford 
>> via CnC-List
>> Sent: May 15, 2020 1:23 PM
>> To: cnc-list 
>> Cc: Randy Stafford 
>> Subject: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I
>> 
>> Listers-
>> 
>> A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
>> top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him 
>> to the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and 
>> dropped me like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a 
>> one-hour race despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating 
>> (demonstrating yet again that ratings don’t necessarily account for 
>> performance differences).  It was an eye-opening demonstration.
>> 
>> So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on 
>> a 30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line 
>> block, and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this 
>> Ranger 28, I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the 
>> asym) to be able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an 
>> asym tack line block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and 
>> hoist/douse the asym using a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem 
>> to accommodate a furler.
>> 
>> Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
>> bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
>> some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of 
>> course wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice 
>> or recommendations?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Randy Stafford
>> S/V Grenadine
>> C&C 30 MK I #79
>> Ken Caryl, CO
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 


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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Donald Kern via CnC-List]

Randy,

Most PHRF rating organizations will adjust (negatively) your rating for 
adding a tack point forward of the "J" measurement of the boat. You may 
receive a credit for both a retrofit application and due to a smaller 
sail area for a spinnaker - depends on the rating rules for your PHRF 
organization.  Also an asymmetrical spinnaker is a free fly sail, thus 
adding a hard furler is not done for an asym.  I do not understand why 
you stated "So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line block to the spare 
headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using a sock." 
That should be an option. Lastly, the 30 Mk1 was designed to go deep 
downwind with a symmetrical spinnaker, which would have a greater sail 
area projected to windward an inherently faster than a asym rig deep 
downwind.  The plus side that an asym would give your 30 Mk1 would be on 
reaching legs.  Hope this helps.


Don Kern
Fireball C&C35 Mk2
Bristol, RI
Commo. PHRF-NB


On 5/15/2020 12:22 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List wrote:

Listers-

A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race 
despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet 
again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences).  It 
was an eye-opening demonstration.

So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on a 
30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, 
and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, 
I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be 
able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using 
a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler.

Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or bracket 
etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did some 
reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course wanted to 
check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice or recommendations?

Thanks,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C&C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO
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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Matt Wolford via CnC-List]

Randy:

What do you mean when you say "rigged"?  I have an asym, but I just use 
my spin pole set all the way forward and as low as possible.  Do you have one 
of those pole gizmos?

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Randy Stafford via 
CnC-List
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2020 12:36 PM
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Randy Stafford 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

Hi Mike,

Yes Grenadine is rigged for symmetrical spinnaker and I fly it in some races.  
I’m still at a disadvantage in speed of setting sails without furlers.

I would be surprised if TSL would need to be greater than 13.5’!

Cheers,
Randy

> On May 15, 2020, at 10:28 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Randy
> 
> You may take a rating hit for having a sprit on the boat for this.  The 
> measurement will be Total Sprit Length (TSL) and if that exceeds J there is 
> usually an adjustment.
> 
> Have you considered a symmetrical spinnaker?  The 30 was designed for one and 
> the downwind angles would clobber a Ranger 28 flying an asym tacked at bow.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mike Hoyt
> Persistence
> Halifax, NS
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Randy Stafford 
> via CnC-List
> Sent: May 15, 2020 1:23 PM
> To: cnc-list 
> Cc: Randy Stafford 
> Subject: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I
> 
> Listers-
> 
> A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
> top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
> the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
> like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour 
> race despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating 
> (demonstrating yet again that ratings don’t necessarily account for 
> performance differences).  It was an eye-opening demonstration.
> 
> So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on 
> a 30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line 
> block, and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this 
> Ranger 28, I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the 
> asym) to be able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an 
> asym tack line block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and 
> hoist/douse the asym using a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem 
> to accommodate a furler.
> 
> Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
> bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
> some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of 
> course wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice 
> or recommendations?
> 
> Thanks,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C&C 30 MK I #79
> Ken Caryl, CO
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 


___

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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Bruno Lachance via CnC-List]

Hi Randy,

Few years ago we added an A2 on a Facnor furler and and Selden sprit to our 
33-2. We do like it,  easy and safe to use single or shorthanded and my 
girlfriend feels confortable knowing i can manage everything safely by myself 
while she drives the boat.
But if i had to choose again i would go for a sock instead of a furler. That 
would be cheaper and faster in my opinion. It is pretty slow to furl a big asym 
on a rope, maybe the profurl with the plastic balls is faster with a larger 
diameter ? racing i need to plan ahead and start furling early.
Also to consider, on my setup, the tack (furler drum) is fixed on the sprit and 
anyways, the tack and head are on a fixed lenth of torque rope, the tuning is 
limited compared to a free flying sail with a regular adjustable tack line.

On windward/leeward courses, you can't really go straight downwind and usually 
need to jibe and sail longer course that sym spin boats, you can go wing on 
wing in some conditions but it is not ideal. Sometimes a similar boat with a 
big no1 genoa poled out with a whisker pole is almost as fast and correct with 
a better rating.

this year we got a new Symmetrical and i'm getting a carbon pole. it is a more 
complex setup short handed but way more efficient downwind on our displacement 
boat. Something new to learn on our boat!

Food for thought.

Best.

Bruno Lachance
Bécassine, 1987 33-2
New-Richmond, Qc

De : CnC-List  de la part de Hoyt, Mike via 
CnC-List 
Envoyé : 15 mai 2020 12:28
À : 'cnc-list@cnc-list.com' 
Cc : Hoyt, Mike 
Objet : Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

Hi Randy

You may take a rating hit for having a sprit on the boat for this.  The 
measurement will be Total Sprit Length (TSL) and if that exceeds J there is 
usually an adjustment.

Have you considered a symmetrical spinnaker?  The 30 was designed for one and 
the downwind angles would clobber a Ranger 28 flying an asym tacked at bow.

Regards

Mike Hoyt
Persistence
Halifax, NS

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Randy Stafford via 
CnC-List
Sent: May 15, 2020 1:23 PM
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Randy Stafford 
Subject: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

Listers-

A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race 
despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet 
again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences).  It 
was an eye-opening demonstration.

So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on a 
30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, 
and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, 
I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be 
able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using 
a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler.

Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course 
wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice or 
recommendations?

Thanks,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C&C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO
___

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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Hi Mike,

Yes Grenadine is rigged for symmetrical spinnaker and I fly it in some races.  
I’m still at a disadvantage in speed of setting sails without furlers.

I would be surprised if TSL would need to be greater than 13.5’!

Cheers,
Randy

> On May 15, 2020, at 10:28 AM, Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Randy
> 
> You may take a rating hit for having a sprit on the boat for this.  The 
> measurement will be Total Sprit Length (TSL) and if that exceeds J there is 
> usually an adjustment.
> 
> Have you considered a symmetrical spinnaker?  The 30 was designed for one and 
> the downwind angles would clobber a Ranger 28 flying an asym tacked at bow.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Mike Hoyt
> Persistence
> Halifax, NS
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Randy Stafford 
> via CnC-List
> Sent: May 15, 2020 1:23 PM
> To: cnc-list 
> Cc: Randy Stafford 
> Subject: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I
> 
> Listers-
> 
> A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
> top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
> the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
> like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour 
> race despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating 
> (demonstrating yet again that ratings don’t necessarily account for 
> performance differences).  It was an eye-opening demonstration.
> 
> So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on 
> a 30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line 
> block, and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this 
> Ranger 28, I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the 
> asym) to be able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an 
> asym tack line block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and 
> hoist/douse the asym using a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem 
> to accommodate a furler.
> 
> Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
> bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
> some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of 
> course wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice 
> or recommendations?
> 
> Thanks,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C&C 30 MK I #79
> Ken Caryl, CO
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 


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Re: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Hi Randy

You may take a rating hit for having a sprit on the boat for this.  The 
measurement will be Total Sprit Length (TSL) and if that exceeds J there is 
usually an adjustment.

Have you considered a symmetrical spinnaker?  The 30 was designed for one and 
the downwind angles would clobber a Ranger 28 flying an asym tacked at bow.

Regards

Mike Hoyt
Persistence
Halifax, NS

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Randy Stafford via 
CnC-List
Sent: May 15, 2020 1:23 PM
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Randy Stafford 
Subject: Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

Listers-

A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race 
despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet 
again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences).  It 
was an eye-opening demonstration.

So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on a 
30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, 
and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, 
I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be 
able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using 
a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler.

Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course 
wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice or 
recommendations?

Thanks,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C&C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO
___

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Stus-List Tacking Down an Asym on a 30 MK I

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Listers-

A guy in my yacht club has started an arms race by adding an asym with a 
top-down furler to his Ranger 28.  Wednesday night in light air I beat him to 
the windward mark by a minute or two, then he hoisted his asym and dropped me 
like a bad habit.  He beat me by five minutes corrected time in a one-hour race 
despite spotting me 12 sec/mile with his new adjusted rating (demonstrating yet 
again that ratings don’t necessarily account for performance differences).  It 
was an eye-opening demonstration.

So now I’m thinking I need an asym to compete.  I know a guy who flew one on a 
30 MK I.  He welded a bracket forward of the stem, to fasten a tack line block, 
and had a sock instead of a furler.  If I want to compete with this Ranger 28, 
I’ll have to add two furlers (one on the forestay and one for the asym) to be 
able to set sails as fast as him.  So I can’t just shackle an asym tack line 
block to the spare headsail shackle on the stem, and hoist/douse the asym using 
a sock.  I need a tack point forward of the stem to accommodate a furler.

Thus my question to you listers: any experience with adding a bowsprit or 
bracket etc. to your C&C for tacking down an asymmetrical spinnaker?  I did 
some reading last night on after-market bowsprits (e.g. Selden), but of course 
wanted to check with the collective wisdom on Stu’s list.  Any advice or 
recommendations?

Thanks,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C&C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO
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