[Moderator] List Guidelines - MUST READ

[Scott Anguish]

Please stay on-topic


There are currently more than 4000 subscribers to this list and  
several hundred messages posted per day. In order to keep the list  
useful please stay on topic and stick to technical discussion.


Cocoa-dev should not be the first place you turn when you encounter a  
problem. First you should:


  - Search the documentation in Xcode
- Remember to select the appropriate doc set and, if applicable,  
turn on full text searching

  - Search the list archives at apple.com or cocoabuilder.com
- Many questions have been asked repeatedly and good answers have  
already been provided. Check the archives _every time_.

  - Search Google
- There are many Cocoa developers who blog about their  
experiences. This is a very useful resource.

  - Ensure that this is actually Cocoa related.
- Basic C questions are not appropriate for this list.

If someone posts a message that is off-topic, please do not reply to  
the list.  You should contact the sender directly or alert a  
moderator.  If a moderator flags a thread (typically with [Moderator]  
in the subject line), do not continue to post to that thread. Do feel  
free to contact the list admins at [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
with any issues.


If you post a message that is blatantly off-topic, you are liable to  
be moderated.


While Apple engineers often subscribe to the list and answer  
questions, they do so on a volunteer basis. This is not an official  
support channel, and you should not expect an Apple engineer to  
provide the answer. Instead contact <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for technical  
issues.


To file bugs use bugreporter at http://bugreporter.apple.com



Discussing NDA Projects (Snow Leopard and iPhone OS) and Private API


This list is not an appropriate forum for the discussion of issues  
that are covered by non-disclosure. This includes Snow Leopard and  
iPhone OS 2.0. Doing so will violate your NDA and the message will be  
forwarded to WWDR.


The discussion of Private API is also not appropriate for this list.  
Using private API is strongly discouraged as it can (and often does)  
change in future software revisions. If you feel some private API  
should be made public contact WWDR directly or file a bug using  
bugreporter.apple.com. Please do not advocate for those changes here,  
it isn't effective.




Other mailing lists
===

 Other Apple mailing lists that may be relevant are listed at:

in particular see:
Xcode-users: 

The Omni Group hosts a general Mac OS X developer list:


There is a Yahoo Group for discussion of business-related issues at:




List etiquette
==

When you post a message, bear in mind that you are asking several  
thousand people to listen to what you're saying. Please ensure that  
you abide by the list rules:


  
  
  In particular: please "Edit included messages in replies to
  minimize the amount of text."  There is no need, for example,
  to include the list footer in your reply.


 Before posting a question, please check the list archives (see  
"Online resources" below) and try searching Google. Many questions  
have been asked before and have already been answered.


 When you ask a question, whenever possible please:

1. Describe what your high-level goal is
2. Include any relevant code
3. If appropriate, include URLs to screenshots

  For more details, see:

  


  If you post a message to the list and do not get a reply, you  
should not simply repost the message.
  There may be reasons why no-one has answered, see the references  
above.
  If you want to send again, add more information or background, or  
explain what further steps

  you have taken in the interim to solve your problem.

  Note that you should never post to the list any message that was  
sent to you

  privately unless you have the original author's permission.



Cocoa-related resources
===

Cocoa-related resources that may answer your question without the need  
to wait for a reply from the list:



Apple's documentation
-

  The Cocoa Getting Started page.
  If you haven't read any Cocoa documentation and want to learn  
about

  the technology, you should begin with this.
  


Main documentation links:
  
  


Apple produces several kinds of documentation.  For an overview of how  
to use the

[Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Scott Anguish]

Discussing NDA Projects (Snow Leopard and iPhone OS) and Private API


This list is not an appropriate forum for the discussion of issues  
that are covered by non-disclosure. This includes Snow Leopard and  
iPhone OS 2.0. Doing so will violate your NDA and the message will be  
forwarded to WWDR.


The discussion of Private API is also not appropriate for this list.  
Using private API is strongly discouraged as it can (and often does)  
change in future software revisions. If you feel some private API  
should be made public contact WWDR directly or file a bug using  
bugreporter.apple.com. Please do not advocate for those changes here,  
it isn't effective.




Please stay on-topic


There are currently more than 4000 subscribers to this list and  
several hundred messages posted per day. In order to keep the list  
useful please stay on topic and stick to technical discussion.


Cocoa-dev should not be the first place you turn when you encounter a  
problem. First you should:


  - Search the documentation in Xcode
- Remember to select the appropriate doc set and, if applicable,  
turn on full text searching

  - Search the list archives at apple.com or cocoabuilder.com
- Many questions have been asked repeatedly and good answers have  
already been provided. Check the archives _every time_.

  - Search Google
- There are many Cocoa developers who blog about their  
experiences. This is a very useful resource.

  - Ensure that this is actually Cocoa related.
- Basic C questions are not appropriate for this list.

If someone posts a message that is off-topic, please do not reply to  
the list.  You should contact the sender directly or alert a  
moderator.  If a moderator flags a thread (typically with [Moderator]  
in the subject line), do not continue to post to that thread. Do feel  
free to contact the list admins at [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
with any issues.


If you post a message that is blatantly off-topic, you are liable to  
be moderated.


While Apple engineers often subscribe to the list and answer  
questions, they do so on a volunteer basis. This is not an official  
support channel, and you should not expect an Apple engineer to  
provide the answer. Instead contact <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for technical  
issues.


To file bugs use bugreporter at http://bugreporter.apple.com




Other mailing lists
===

 Other Apple mailing lists that may be relevant are listed at:

in particular see:
Xcode-users: 

The Omni Group hosts a general Mac OS X developer list:


There is a Yahoo Group for discussion of business-related issues at:




List etiquette
==

When you post a message, bear in mind that you are asking several  
thousand people to listen to what you're saying. Please ensure that  
you abide by the list rules:


  
  
  In particular: please "Edit included messages in replies to
  minimize the amount of text."  There is no need, for example,
  to include the list footer in your reply.


 Before posting a question, please check the list archives (see  
"Online resources" below) and try searching Google. Many questions  
have been asked before and have already been answered.


 When you ask a question, whenever possible please:

1. Describe what your high-level goal is
2. Include any relevant code
3. If appropriate, include URLs to screenshots

  For more details, see:

  


  If you post a message to the list and do not get a reply, you  
should not simply repost the message.
  There may be reasons why no-one has answered, see the references  
above.
  If you want to send again, add more information or background, or  
explain what further steps

  you have taken in the interim to solve your problem.

  Note that you should never post to the list any message that was  
sent to you

  privately unless you have the original author's permission.



Cocoa-related resources
===

Cocoa-related resources that may answer your question without the need  
to wait for a reply from the list:



Apple's documentation
-

  The Cocoa Getting Started page.
  If you haven't read any Cocoa documentation and want to learn  
about

  the technology, you should begin with this.
  


Main documentation links:
  
  


Apple produces several kinds of documentation.  For an overview of how  
to use th

[Moderator] - List Guidelines - Must Read

[CocoaDev Admins]

iPhone SDK
--

Until an announcement is made otherwise, developers should be aware  
that the iPhone SDK is still under non-disclosure (section 5.3 of the  
iPhone Development Agreement). It can't be discussed here, or anywhere  
publicly. This includes other mailing lists, forums, and also blogs.  
Violating the NDA will result in WWDR being notified of the breach.  
Further action is a their (and legal's) discretion.


The iPhone SDK situation is somewhat different than a Mac OS X  
release, in that a Mac OS X release includes a copy of the developer  
tools with the distribution. The iPhone OS 2.0 release on devices and  
as an upgrade does _not_ include the development tools. As a result,  
the SDK is not automatically considered public because the release has  
occurred.


Section 5.3 of the iPhone Development Agreement remains in force at  
this time, and will so remain until iPhone Developer Program members  
are specifically and personally notified by an authorized  
representative of Apple.



Xcode 3.1
-

iPhone SDK requires Xcode 3.1 so it contains it (because it won't work  
without it).


Xcode 3.1 is available indepently of the iPhone Developer Program and  
its nondisclosure agreement, so it's available as a download  
separately from the iPhone SDK,.


Whichever you choose, the Xcode build and installation is identical.  
But you still can't discuss the iPhone SDK.


Questions about Xcode and Interface Builder are best addressed to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mailing list.



SnowLeopard NDA
===

The SnowLeopard seed is under non-disclosure and can not be discussed  
here.




Discussing Private API
==

The discussion of Private API is also not appropriate for this list.  
Using private API is strongly discouraged as it can (and often does)  
change in future software revisions. If you feel some private API  
should be made public contact WWDR directly or file a bug using  
bugreporter.apple.com. Please do not advocate for those changes here,  
it isn't effective.



Please stay on-topic


There are currently more than 5000 subscribers to this list and  
several hundred messages posted per day. In order to keep the list  
useful please stay on topic and stick to technical discussion.


Cocoa-dev should not be the first place you turn when you encounter a  
problem. First you should:


- Search the documentation in Xcode
  - Remember to select the appropriate doc set and, if applicable,  
turn on full text searching

- Search the list archives at apple.com or cocoabuilder.com
  - Many questions have been asked repeatedly and good answers have  
already been provided. Check the archives _every time_.

- Search Google
  - There are many Cocoa developers who blog about their experiences.  
This is a very useful resource.

- Ensure that this is actually Cocoa related.
  - Basic C questions are not appropriate for this list.

If someone posts a message that is off-topic, please do not reply to  
the list.  You should contact the sender directly or alert a  
moderator.  If a moderator flags a thread (typically with [Moderator]  
in the subject line), do not continue to post to that thread. Do feel  
free to contact the list admins at [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
with any issues.


If you post a message that is blatantly off-topic, you are liable to  
be moderated.


While Apple engineers often subscribe to the list and answer  
questions, they do so on a volunteer basis. This is not an official  
support channel, and you should not expect an Apple engineer to  
provide the answer. Instead contact <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for technical  
issues.


To file bugs use bugreporter at http://bugreporter.apple.com




Other mailing lists
===

 Other Apple mailing lists that may be relevant are listed at:

in particular see:
Xcode-users: 

The Omni Group hosts a general Mac OS X developer list:


There is a Yahoo Group for discussion of business-related issues at:




List etiquette
==

When you post a message, bear in mind that you are asking several  
thousand people to listen to what you're saying. Please ensure that  
you abide by the list rules:




In particular: please "Edit included messages in replies to
minimize the amount of text."  There is no need, for example,
to include the list footer in your reply.


 Before posting a question, please check the list archives (see  
"Online resources" below) and try searching Google. Many questions  
have been asked before and have already been answered.


 When you ask a question, whenever possible please:

1. Describe what your high-level goal is
2. Include an

Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Hamish Allan]

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Scott Anguish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Discussing NDA Projects (Snow Leopard and iPhone OS) and Private API
> 
>
> This list is not an appropriate forum for the discussion of issues that are
> covered by non-disclosure. This includes Snow Leopard and iPhone OS 2.0.
> Doing so will violate your NDA and the message will be forwarded to WWDR.

Making these general posts repeatedly seems to me to be pretty futile.
Those who post iPhone questions here are presumably those who have
signed up five minutes beforehand for the purpose. The fact that they
post without reading the FAQ or performing even a cursory search of
the archives indicates, to my mind, that they are unlikely to read the
above before posting, even if they have received it. I think the only
people who end up reading it are those who already know the rules
(someone correct me if I'm wrong!)

What we really need is for the cocoa-dev list admin page to require
new subscribers to type in the phrase "I will not make posts about the
iPhone or Snow Leopard" :)

Hamish
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Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Scott Ribe]

> What we really need is for the cocoa-dev list admin page to require
> new subscribers to type in the phrase "I will not make posts about the
> iPhone or Snow Leopard" :)

You know, I think that's a good idea. Either there, or where downloading the
iPhone SDK, rather than just click to acknowledge, make them type in
something confirming the NDA.

-- 
Scott Ribe
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.killerbytes.com/
(303) 722-0567 voice


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Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[mmalc Crawford]

On Jun 26, 2008, at 11:36 AM, Hamish Allan wrote:


Making these general posts repeatedly seems to me to be pretty futile.
Those who post iPhone questions here are presumably those who have
signed up five minutes beforehand for the purpose. The fact that they
post without reading the FAQ or performing even a cursory search of
the archives indicates, to my mind, that they are unlikely to read the
above before posting, even if they have received it.


The guidelines are also automatically sent on sign-up.


What we really need is for the cocoa-dev list admin page to require
new subscribers to type in the phrase "I will not make posts about the
iPhone or Snow Leopard" :)


Unfortunately the list management s/w is not that sophisticated.
(Another possible solution that it doesn't support is setting new  
members to being moderated to begin with.)


mmalc

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Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Jens Alfke]

On 26 Jun '08, at 11:36 AM, Hamish Allan wrote:


What we really need is for the cocoa-dev list admin page to require
new subscribers to type in the phrase "I will not make posts about the
iPhone or Snow Leopard" :)


No, you've bought into the whole reality distortion field. What we  
_really_ need is for Apple to allow developer discussion of NDA'ed  
products. If there were an *Ph*n* mailing list on this server, and if  
that list were mentioned in the SDK or on the *Ph*n* developer home  
page, people would see it and go there to post. The list could be set  
up to require ADC membership to subscribe, so as to preserve the  
airtight confidentiality of all details of the *Ph*n* SDK.


Of course, this would have to be in some hypothetical parallel  
universe where the anonymous responsible personages at Apple actually  
understood the usefulness of the Internet and of allowing developers  
to talk with each other. In our universe, they remain mired in their  
bunker mentality, leaving it up to the longsuffering list admins like  
Scott to clean up after their shortsightedness.


—Jens [consider my wrist already 
slapped]___

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Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Omar Qazi]

On Jun 26, 2008, at 11:01 PM, Jens Alfke wrote:
No, you've bought into the whole reality distortion field. What we  
_really_ need is for Apple to allow developer discussion of NDA'ed  
products. If there were an *Ph*n* mailing list on this server, and  
if that list were mentioned in the SDK or on the *Ph*n* developer  
home page, people would see it and go there to post. The list could  
be set up to require ADC membership to subscribe, so as to preserve  
the airtight confidentiality of all details of the *Ph*n* SDK.



Well I imagine this is going to happen soon anyway... July 11th isn't  
that far off anymore.


Until then perhaps you could emphasize this some more, like putting  
the little NDA boiler plate at the beginning of the welcome email. Or  
maybe even making it the subject.


Omar Qazi
Hello, Galaxy!
1.310.294.1593



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Tom Harrington]

On Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Jens Alfke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 26 Jun '08, at 11:36 AM, Hamish Allan wrote:
>
>> What we really need is for the cocoa-dev list admin page to require
>> new subscribers to type in the phrase "I will not make posts about the
>> iPhone or Snow Leopard" :)
>
> No, you've bought into the whole reality distortion field. What we _really_
> need is for Apple to allow developer discussion of NDA'ed products. If there
> were an *Ph*n* mailing list on this server, and if that list were mentioned
> in the SDK or on the *Ph*n* developer home page, people would see it and go
> there to post. The list could be set up to require ADC membership to
> subscribe, so as to preserve the airtight confidentiality of all details of
> the *Ph*n* SDK.

Oh, they do allow it, despite what the moderators here say.  You just
have to use the appropriate Apple forum.  Apple's support forums have
a "developer" section with no shortage of iPhone discussion.  Apple
hosts it and nobody seems to mind.

See  for the forum.

It seems kind of silly that iPhone discussion is forbidden here when
Apple's apparently not concerned with hosting the discussions
elsewhere, but hey, what do I know about it.

-- 
Tom Harrington
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
AIM: atomicbird1
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Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Devon Ferns]

I agree.  It's not like what's in the SDK is super secret.  Anyone can 
download it. 


Devon

Tom Harrington wrote:


Oh, they do allow it, despite what the moderators here say.  You just
have to use the appropriate Apple forum.  Apple's support forums have
a "developer" section with no shortage of iPhone discussion.  Apple
hosts it and nobody seems to mind.

See  for the forum.

It seems kind of silly that iPhone discussion is forbidden here when
Apple's apparently not concerned with hosting the discussions
elsewhere, but hey, what do I know about it.

  


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Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Scott Anguish]

On Jun 27, 2008, at 11:17 AM, Tom Harrington wrote:


Oh, they do allow it, despite what the moderators here say.


I'm not just making these rules up as I go because it's what I want.

These are the rules provided by WWDR and others.


You just
have to use the appropriate Apple forum.  Apple's support forums have
a "developer" section with no shortage of iPhone discussion.  Apple
hosts it and nobody seems to mind.


And you're still breaking your NDA with all the same legal  
ramifications.



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Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Steve Christensen]

On Jun 27, 2008, at 8:25 AM, Devon Ferns wrote:

I agree.  It's not like what's in the SDK is super secret.  Anyone  
can download it.


Yeah, anyone can download it, but in order to download it, you have  
to go through the process of accepting a license agreement that  
includes a NDA restriction. And if people honor the NDA then the  
contents of the SDK are, in fact, "super secret" because only the  
people bound by the NDA know what's in the SDK.


This is how it works in business. If you want to use somebody else's  
stuff, you often have to agree that what they tell you stops with you  
(or your company). If you violate the agreement, at the very least  
they won't be doing business with you again because you'll have a  
reputation of not being trustworthy.


Ultimately it comes down to how good your word is...

steve

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[Moderator] Re: [Moderator] List Guidelines - Must Read

[Scott Anguish]

On Jun 27, 2008, at 11:25 AM, Devon Ferns wrote:

I agree.  It's not like what's in the SDK is super secret.  Anyone  
can download it.

Devon



You can only download it after accepting to the confidentiality  
agreement.


Believe it or not, there are people who can't, or won't, download it  
based on the agreement.


Regardless, this thread is done.  It isn't something to be debated  
here. 
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