Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:02:35 -0400 (Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of announce@) Rodent of Unusual Size [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow and age. imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and bureaucracy. Thank you :) The only two ways to avoid bureaucracy are : * Accept the difference, heterogeneous ways of thinking with each other (with RESPECT) * Invite Innovative-Mind guys/ladies constantly Innovative (half of the computer engineers have such a mind) way of thinking can be easily in opposition to that of Conservative. This is explained by the brain (In these cases, right-cerebral brain and left-limbic brain) mechanism. Bureaucracy is highly tied up with left-limbic brain. Also, bureaucracy is one of social-diseases, which are curable by no means. Bureaucrats tend to hide their asses, possess the instinct of self-preservation, and highly show the self-defense mechanism when attacked by innovative (non-conservative, liberal) ones. # Self-Defense Mechanism can be perceived by very funny # reactions of the bureaucrats. Very Funny, Indeed. The matter is worse, those who are genuine :) bureaucrats can not assay themselves as they are suffering from the disease of bureaucratism. This (bureaucracy) can be found here, there, everywhere in japan :) Incurable serious disease of the society... As if we are awiting the collapse to death of our social system within a few years. sad. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) P.S. There's no inferior/superior issue. Just ones' preference of the way of thinking. Conservative guys will be rather needed in well-matured societies, OTOH, Innovative guys will be rather needed in societies under development, indeed. NO inferior/superior issue. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:02:35 -0400 (Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of announce@) Rodent of Unusual Size [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow and age. imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and bureaucracy. Thank you :) The only two ways to avoid bureaucracy are : * Accept the difference, heterogeneous ways of thinking with each other (with RESPECT) * Invite Innovative-Mind guys/ladies constantly Innovative (half of the computer engineers have such a mind) way of thinking can be easily in opposition to that of Conservative. This is explained by the brain (In these cases, right-cerebral brain and left-limbic brain) mechanism. Bureaucracy is highly tied up with left-limbic brain. Also, bureaucracy is one of social-diseases, which are curable by no means. Bureaucrats tend to hide their asses, possess the instinct of self-preservation, and highly show the self-defense mechanism when attacked by innovative (non-conservative, liberal) ones. # Self-Defense Mechanism can be perceived by very funny # reactions of the bureaucrats. Very Funny, Indeed. The matter is worse, those who are genuine :) bureaucrats can not assay themselves as they are suffering from the disease of bureaucratism. This (bureaucracy) can be found here, there, everywhere in japan :) Incurable serious disease of the society... As if we are awiting the collapse to death of our social system within a few years. sad. Tetsuya, Like many others here, I definitely appreciate your contributions on the Apache Newsletter. It has been a task needing to be done, but nobody previously was willing to put in the energy and enthusiasm you have shown to actually make it happen. But I would like to point out something you *might* not have given enough weight to in your own thinking -- cultural sensitivity is a two way street. One of the hardest things for many newcomers to Apache (or other open source cultures that operate similarly) is the brusque-sounding tone of many comments. It's not personal -- it's based on a (shared) goal to improve things, not necessarily (or even usually) intended to shut things down. There are more than a few times when I've come close to saying to heck with this place due to criticisms of my actions that I took too personally; but not doing so was one of the best things I ever avoided doing. Your comment about bureacracy is interesting. For the first time in my life, I've spent the last three+ years working for a big company (Sun), after working for organizations with 500 employees previously in my career. Apache's bureaucracy doesn't hold a candle to Sun's :-). Nor, from what I gather, does it compare to most other big organizations either. In fact, the real problems I see for Apache are almost the opposite. It is the *lack* of a final authority making decisions is what causes most of the conflict I see. In the case at hand, you ended up reacting to one person's statement. That person did not speak for the Board or the Members; he spoke for himself. I personally doubt if his opinion was, or is, even a majority view of whatever constituency you consider to be the Apache community. And, the fact that the previous community@apache.org discussions on this topic did not reach any definite conclusion is a symptom of the *lack* of an authoritative Apache bureacracy, rather than evidence that one exists. But, that's the way it is, and it's not going to change. Apache is not like your typical American cultural institution, any more than it's like your typical Japanese institution. We all need to learn how to interact with this strange beast, and make it better all the while. Your expecting it to behave in a way that is comfortable to the Japanese culture would be just as incorrect (and unlikely) as me expecting it to behave in the American culture that I'm operating in. It's not going to happen. Our choice is to deal with it, or not participate. I, for one, voted for deal with it. My preference would be that you did so also, but that's up to you. -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
On Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003, at 07:03 Europe/Rome, Craig R. McClanahan wrote: Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:02:35 -0400 (Subject: Re: Inappropriate use of announce@) Rodent of Unusual Size [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: tetsuya has a lot of energy, and i think we are seeing the common decay into inertia and conservatism common to groups as they grow and age. imho, we should work against this tendency, and seek to empower people (or at least help them find appropriate ways to use all that energy) rather than stifle them with policies and bureaucracy. Thank you :) The only two ways to avoid bureaucracy are : * Accept the difference, heterogeneous ways of thinking with each other (with RESPECT) * Invite Innovative-Mind guys/ladies constantly Innovative (half of the computer engineers have such a mind) way of thinking can be easily in opposition to that of Conservative. This is explained by the brain (In these cases, right-cerebral brain and left-limbic brain) mechanism. Bureaucracy is highly tied up with left-limbic brain. Also, bureaucracy is one of social-diseases, which are curable by no means. Bureaucrats tend to hide their asses, possess the instinct of self-preservation, and highly show the self-defense mechanism when attacked by innovative (non-conservative, liberal) ones. # Self-Defense Mechanism can be perceived by very funny # reactions of the bureaucrats. Very Funny, Indeed. The matter is worse, those who are genuine :) bureaucrats can not assay themselves as they are suffering from the disease of bureaucratism. This (bureaucracy) can be found here, there, everywhere in japan :) Incurable serious disease of the society... As if we are awiting the collapse to death of our social system within a few years. well well, you are just going too far here, IMO. One thing is being rude and non diplomatic. An entirely different thing is to be a part of a serious disease. sad. Even more sad that you can see the similarities, but not the differences. When I apologized it was because of the tone of the discussion and because the discussion took place in the wrong location (when foundation-wide entities start to deal with merit issues, the entire foundation looses the ability to increase its diversity, thus to adapt better to a changing environment) Now, you want the system to adapt to you, but how much are you going to adapt to the system? Calling the ASF beaurocratic shows only how low your ability to understand and adapt to a much more complex system is. This is understandable, but not excusable as a reason to resign. [you can just say sorry, I'm tired or have no time for this and that would be a perfect reason to resign, but that's another story] Tetsuya, Like many others here, I definitely appreciate your contributions on the Apache Newsletter. It has been a task needing to be done, but nobody previously was willing to put in the energy and enthusiasm you have shown to actually make it happen. But I would like to point out something you *might* not have given enough weight to in your own thinking -- cultural sensitivity is a two way street. One of the hardest things for many newcomers to Apache (or other open source cultures that operate similarly) is the brusque-sounding tone of many comments. It's not personal -- it's based on a (shared) goal to improve things, not necessarily (or even usually) intended to shut things down. There are more than a few times when I've come close to saying to heck with this place due to criticisms of my actions that I took too personally; but not doing so was one of the best things I ever avoided doing. Your comment about bureacracy is interesting. For the first time in my life, I've spent the last three+ years working for a big company (Sun), after working for organizations with 500 employees previously in my career. Apache's bureaucracy doesn't hold a candle to Sun's :-). Nor, from what I gather, does it compare to most other big organizations either. In fact, the real problems I see for Apache are almost the opposite. It is the *lack* of a final authority making decisions is what causes most of the conflict I see. True, but for deity;'s sake, I wouldn't want to change!!! As a wise and effective politician once said democracy is a terribly poor form of government, but every other one is worse. The meritocratic system we use has its own defects and it's questionable if it can scale more without collapsing on its own weight (due to its inverted top-bottom flow of control), but any other form of government would possibly induce higher efficiency, but lower our ability to adapt and diversify. In the case at hand, you ended up reacting to one person's statement. That person did not speak for the Board or the Members; he spoke for himself. I personally doubt if his opinion was, or is, even a majority view of whatever constituency you consider to be the Apache community. And, the fact that the previous
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
I don't want to drag this along forever, but I feel I need to be
precise because I don't want email communication to make it drier than
it is.
On Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003, at 09:07 Europe/Rome, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 08:52:16 +0200
Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
When I apologized it was because of the tone of the discussion and
because the discussion took place in the wrong location (when
foundation-wide entities start to deal with merit issues, the entire
foundation looses the ability to increase its diversity, thus to
adapt better to a changing environment)
Stefano, to tell the truth, what made me sad was
the apologies from you at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You, announce@ moderator, should not have apologized because
you were *not* guilty. What made me angry and sad was
not the TONE of the controversy at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Rather, what I did (publish the newsletter) let
you apologize to the other people.
I understand and respect your feelings and positions, but I also would
like you to know that I was not sad, nor angry, just disappointed by
what happened over at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
This discussions seems to be touching several human sides and it's
probably getting bigger that is should be, but there are a few things
that were realized:
1) infrastructure@ should deal with infrastructure issues *only*. the
decisions to use announce@ for publishing the newsletter should *NOT*
have been discussed on infrastructure and any decision taken by them
without a reasonable infrastructural concern should be void and
overruled.
2) open source communities tend to be aggressive environments. I don't
know if this is because we have our hearts on our keyboards as Ken
poetically phrased ('poetically' intended as a compliment, not as
ironic criticism), if because email is such a poor communication media,
if we use a common language and native speakers tend to forget the
impedence mismatch with non-native speakers, if we haven't seen in
person before, a lot of potential reasons.
NOTE: #2 is, IMHO, the reason why women cannot stay in an open source
environment for long. Women dislike aggressive environments by nature.
3) burn-out happens. I have been burned out twice and in both
situations I left for a while. As long as one year at one point. All
the people that I know and learned from all burned out, some left for
some time, some left entirely.
4) the more the foundation grows, the harder is going to be to change
something. this appears as beaurocracy, but it's not, it's just social
inertia and it's not as bad as it seems because it keeps thing sane.
Yes, I knew that you did really take care of the
mood of community and i suspect that you apologized
because of it. However, it made me sad at the same time.
You shouldn't be.
I felt I had to apologize because when I consider myself part of a
community or team (not that I'm consider myself part of
infrastructure@, i'm just a stupid lurker there with no sysadm skills
whatsoever), if one makes a mistake, the entire community makes it.
I don't think David and Sander did such a bad thing, they expressed
their opinion, but I disliked the way they did and I wanted to
apologize for the feeling you got out of this.
You felt sad but they probably felt angry at me because of this, but,
if they did, they didn't express it publicly.
As you see, there are many sides all the time and it's really hard to
find a balance.
It takes respect and a good dose of patience and ability to digest what
you dislike and simply pass by without taking it personally. And,
believe me, this is an art on its own and crosses cultural borders to
reach the limits of wisdom.
...but I'm getting too philosophical, I think, so I stop here and just
respect your choice.
Calling the ASF beaurocratic shows only how low your ability to
understand and adapt to a much more complex system is.
No, I did not declare. I am now talking about the
*beaurocracy* with the people in japanese government.
Most of my juniors (Kouhai) / seniors (Sempai) are
government officials.
That's it.
Oh, then if I misinterpreted your comments. Sorry for that.
--
Stefano.
-
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Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
I won't. Life is not fair. I have several customers there (Hofheim), so I know about this. Solution: Move. E.g. my last house move and the location of my office were purely based on the number of carriers able to offer me bandwith there. I live in this century, I want to interact with its technology on the leading edge. Then I must be willing to create foundations to make this possible. One thing that the ASF is all about is laying foundations and creating software that people build stuff on. If you voluntarily chose to stay in a location where you can't get what you need to keep up, you can't expect others to scale down just so that you can do. Regards Henning On Mon, 2003-10-20 at 21:02, André Malo wrote: * Henning Schmiedehausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I liked the idea of a general announce list where all this stuff is sent and let my mail client sort it out. This is the 21st century. If you have bandwidth, disk space or download time concerns, you're either not using the right technology or simply cannot keep up with the edge of this fast moving technology. I'm inviting you to move to our location where no provider seems to be able to put a big bandwidth connection, say, for a week and sorting out your 6000 mails per day. Have Fun :-) Guess where it is? Just some kilometers from the main German CIX, near Frankfurt/Main in the center of Germany. nd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH [EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/ Java, perl, Solaris, Linux, xSP Consulting, Web Services freelance consultant -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire Dominate!! Dominate!! Eat your young and aggregate! I have grotty silicon! -- AOL CD when played backwards (User Friendly - 200-10-15) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
I know, I shouldn't post this... * Henning Schmiedehausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Life is not fair. [..] If you voluntarily chose to stay in a location where you can't get what ^^^ How did you get that impression? you need to keep up, you can't expect others to scale down just so that you can do. No, *you* are not fair. Life has nothing to do with it. If you want to play that game, just do it. But let other people do it their way. Actually, I certainly can expect that other people scale down. I do scale down as well. If you are not willing to, the day will come, that you'll speak but nobody listens to you. By the way, did you know, that there's no real backbone in Paraguay? What do you expect? All the people who want to listen to you, moving to Germany? Who are you, man? Welcome to reality! nd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Craig R. McClanahan wrote: snip/ Your comment about bureacracy is interesting. For the first time in my life, I've spent the last three+ years working for a big company (Sun), after working for organizations with 500 employees previously in my career. Apache's bureaucracy doesn't hold a candle to Sun's :-). Nor, from what I gather, does it compare to most other big organizations either. In fact, the real problems I see for Apache are almost the opposite. It is the *lack* of a final authority making decisions is what causes most of the conflict I see. In the case at hand, you ended up reacting to one person's statement. That person did not speak for the Board or the Members; he spoke for himself. I personally doubt if his opinion was, or is, even a majority view of whatever constituency you consider to be the Apache community. And, the fact that the previous community@apache.org discussions on this topic did not reach any definite conclusion is a symptom of the *lack* of an authoritative Apache bureacracy, rather than evidence that one exists. I don't think that effective decision-making in a large organization *requires* bureacracy. A hierarchical bureacracy is certainly one way to establish and maintain authority, but it is not the only way and, in my experience, it tends to be a very bad way when it comes to technical decison-making. The Apache meritocracy model has resulted in great software and a great community. What we lose in final authority we gain 100x over in individual empowerment and quality, IMHO. The trick is to make sure that none of the really important discussions are inconclusive and that enough de facto, extemporaneous authorities emerge to lead the efforts that the community takes on. In my limited experience with Apache, I have been very impressed with how well the system actually works. Admittedly, I don't have very much experience with Apache, but I do have a lot of experience with large technologies organizations and I think that it will much better if they (the bureacracies) become more like us (Apache) than the other way around. Phil - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Inappropriate use of announce@
Phil Steitz wrote: Craig R. McClanahan wrote: snip/ ... I don't think that effective decision-making in a large organization *requires* bureacracy. You're right. It requires responsibility. It's possible that an entity is responsible of something without having bureacracy in place. In Apache it's mainly meritocratic communities that decide through the Apache decision-making process (not necessarily voting). Here it seems that it's not clear who is ultimately responsible for this, or if there is lack of oversight, but I might be wrong. -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Inappropriate use of announce@
From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 11:59 AM I don't think David and Sander did such a bad thing, they expressed their opinion, but I disliked the way they did and I wanted to apologize for the feeling you got out of this. You felt sad but they probably felt angry at me because of this, but, if they did, they didn't express it publicly. For the record: no. No negative feelings whatsoever. Sander - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
