Re: A cool device must have a powerfull e-book reader
Dnia czwartek, 25 stycznia 2007 07:06, Ketut P. Kumajaya napisał: I have ported FBReader for Motorola E680i/A780 mobile phone and I am sure FBReader author only need a couple hour time to make it run on OpenMoko if he has access to OpenMoko device. FBReader is GTK application. OpenEmbedded has it in repository so I think that this will work out-of-box rather ;) -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant This may seem a bit weird, but that's okay, because it is weird. -- Perl documentation ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: dialer interface questions
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 23:52 -0700, Jeff Andros wrote: I hope you can give us a hand with this stuff without getting yourself in trouble. I'm actually more concerned that I might harm the project by my involvement so I'll stay away from IMEs for a while. I'll have to find an IP lawyer who can tell me what I can or can't do. In the meantime, there are so many OpenMoko projects I'm also interested in. One thing I will say is that programming for cellphones is so much different as for desktops. Size and speed are major, major concerns. Fortunately, the processor on the Neo seems fast enough, but the addressable memory is still quite limited. You'll be surprised at how big dictionaries can get and how much it bogs down the CPU when you try to compress it. If not for that, I had a whole slew of fancy ideas I wanted to implement that would make the cellphone seem as if it could read your mind with just a few keystrokes. -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
2007/1/26, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: hotsync ID, one device, one SD card... Even if it does not work. It would be nice if some more developers could be convinced that Prepare fancy build system with compilation on demand, then build dedicated software package for every customer, with his name hard-coded in binary. Does not prevent copying, but owner name in splash may lower piracy rate. -- Tomek Z. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: emulator something like greenphone vmware?
On Friday 26 January 2007 08:40, Denis Kot wrote: No, I don't need hardware emulator. I need interface emulator :). Where I can play with phone's interface and maybe onboard software w/o buying the phone. It's ok if it will be compiled for i386 or whatever. You can use QEMU : it will provide a complete ARM virtual machine, and can emulate different system types (integrator/versatile). In system mode emulation QEMU is very handy because it provides a fb device, hard disk, ethernet, mouse, keyboard, etc. The hardware is different but in order to develop and test softwares with no special hardware interface, QEMU is very convenient. It will run slowly that native x86 code of course, but it will be nearest from the target platform. You can use the same filesystem that the one you will put on your phone, for example using a NFS root. So testing is really efficient : compile, then run, and put the binary on the target if the result is ok. By default QEMU provides 926 and 1026 emulation, not 920, but it is easy to patch it (and some config in the kernel) to make it appear as a 920t machine (it is only a hack however). I made some tests this way, it works very well (see http://www.pierrox.net/G500/20070109/qemu-0.8.2-versatile_pb-920t.patch, http://www.pierrox.net/G500/20070109/linux-2.6.18.3-versatile_pb-920t.patch and http://www.pierrox.net/G500/20070109/config-2.6.18.3-versatile_pb-920t for patches, remember : just a hack). You can use QEMU to run the familiar images for example (with some tweaking in init scripts), or install debian, or build your own system. Pierre. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
Bryan Fink wrote: Answers of the, So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times - no secrets, variety typically get you labeled paranoid. Answers of the, Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it, Really interesting thread, Bryan - and definitely worth thinking about, because the 'pitch' to different types of people (developers, early adopting consumers, businesses, mass market) will certainly have to vary! I'd make one comment on the quote above. I agree that most people would tend to dismiss unspecified fears (this bit of hardware might be doing something behind my back!). But if you tie that to a more specific example, it might help to get the concept across. I usually point out how the priorities of end users and those of operators differ: and it's the operators who are the manufacturer's biggest customers. For example, some phones put Send an MMS above Send an SMS on a menu: very few MMSs are sent in comparison to texts, but the operators are keen to encourage take-up. Or another example: there's no technical reason why you can't use any MP3 you've transferred to your phone as a ringtone. But allowing that would limit a lucrative market, so most phones prevent it. It'd be interesting to start collecting ideas of potential ways to express the benefits to different types of customer: who would be most interested in what type of message? When I get a minute over the weekend, I'll add some thoughts to the wiki (which might need a 'Marketing' section...). Cheers, Ben ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
That's the most braindead shit I've heard since a long time. Why are you suddenly playing the weenies? Do you need a huge Carrara-marble tomb-stone with Mickey, the inventor of OpenMoko? Just get the shit out and stop talking about September. And yes, it is a good thing if you keep steering it for a while like a dictator. What's the point of all this anger, bad language and insults? One would expect that experienced developers would be able to put their point across without resorting to this type of language. Even the GNU/Linux debate didn't sink to this new level of abuse. This mailing list is currently the *public* face of the OpenMoko development community. Please don't make us feel embarrassed to be associated with it ... -- Rod Whitby -- NSLU2-Linux Project Lead ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Make it easy to voluntarily pay for free OpenMoko software?
to, 2007-01-25 kello 22:56 +, Dave Crossland kirjoitti:
Many free software projects accept donations, and if you are willing
to pay the developers after enjoying their software, I feel it is
important to donate a little.
Indeed. Which brings to mind that should/could OpenMoko provide some
framework to make it easier to pass a few bucks to a developer of a
nifty free app, and how could this be accomplished? Perchance spesify a
standard spot in package metadata + package manager (and/or application
menus) for a link to the developer's favourite online payment
service/other info?
Just a thought, but I think it would be nice to try to make it easy to
monetarily reward people who create free software for the phone; also,
if successful, it would perhaps serve to make the distiction between
beer and speech free more apparent. ('course, it could be used by
non-free software developers as well, but whatever.)
--
Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/
Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/
Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/
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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
If anyone needs examples of how phones connect behind ones back, I can provide a fair few. I had the O2 XDA Orbit. It looks like a smashing phone, but the software on it lets it down massively. The carrier have changed the software's functionality, so even when you disable GPRS connection (like putting the phone into flight mode, but with just GPRS) the software turns it back on. This led to a bill of £26 after just 5 days of having the phone. Needless to say, the phone went back, and I'm now sitting on my hands until I graduate from Uni, carry on my professional career, and hopefully get my hands on the neo1973 in September. I must say, the experience with integrated GPS was probably the best thing about the phone. I had to visit a client - the GPS took me to the nearest car park, then I was able to use walk mode to find my way right to their front door. I had a handheld GPS before, which one couldn't really use to the same extent. Bryan Fink wrote: Answers of the, So I know exactly what my phone is doing at all times - no secrets, variety typically get you labeled paranoid. Answers of the, Because I will be able to modify absolutely anything about it, Really interesting thread, Bryan - and definitely worth thinking about, because the 'pitch' to different types of people (developers, early adopting consumers, businesses, mass market) will certainly have to vary! I'd make one comment on the quote above. I agree that most people would tend to dismiss unspecified fears (this bit of hardware might be doing something behind my back!). But if you tie that to a more specific example, it might help to get the concept across. I usually point out how the priorities of end users and those of operators differ: and it's the operators who are the manufacturer's biggest customers. For example, some phones put Send an MMS above Send an SMS on a menu: very few MMSs are sent in comparison to texts, but the operators are keen to encourage take-up. Or another example: there's no technical reason why you can't use any MP3 you've transferred to your phone as a ringtone. But allowing that would limit a lucrative market, so most phones prevent it. It'd be interesting to start collecting ideas of potential ways to express the benefits to different types of customer: who would be most interested in what type of message? When I get a minute over the weekend, I'll add some thoughts to the wiki (which might need a 'Marketing' section...). Cheers, Ben -- Andrew Loughran ZRMT Solutions ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Why not switching automaticaly? Re: Gesture command
Well the point is that I'd like to have the battery to last more than one day. That's why I'll won'tr have GPS and BT enabled 24/24. And activating BT profile was only an idea, I don't want my shortcut to call mum being activated every time I get back home :) Rgs, Foucault On 1/25/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve Foucault! On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Foucault de Bonneval wrote: I was thinking of BT profiles and of people who constantly move form home to car to office to client ... So changing BT profile must be easier that calling a number or accessing diary, phonebook. matter of personal priorities... So what do you think about having gesture recognition running to call events such as : - unlock and lock screen (move up and down) - call BT home profile (one up one right) - call BT car profile (one up one left) The PalmPilot had several hacks that allows the user to define actions like this to special key strokes - IMHO should the user be able to define what must be easier than other,,, Hmm why not switching automaticaly by using Bluetooth scans and GPS localisation? E.g. arriving home and switching of the car will swith your Bluetooth profile from car to home automaticaly. And leaving home will start scanning if your car is on. You see, OpenMoko/Neo1973 will give us much freedom for our phone. :))) Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Photos : Updated 22 mai 2006 http://foucault.debonneval.free.fr/mGallery/ FreePhone : +33 (0) 871 73 53 96 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Make it easy to voluntarily pay for free OpenMoko software?
On 26/01/07, Mikko Rauhala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
to, 2007-01-25 kello 22:56 +, Dave Crossland kirjoitti:
Many free software projects accept donations, and if you are willing
to pay the developers after enjoying their software, I feel it is
important to donate a little.
Indeed. Which brings to mind that should/could OpenMoko provide some
framework to make it easier to pass a few bucks to a developer of a
nifty free app
I am totally all in favour of this - but I am not (yet...) a
developer, merely a user, and can't help things myself :-/
if successful, it would perhaps serve to make the distiction between
beer and speech free more apparent. ('course, it could be used by
non-free software developers as well, but whatever.)
Yes, I think so. You might find
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html interesting on this subject
:-)
--
Regards,
Dave
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Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 26/01/07, Ben F-W [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you tie that to a more specific example, it might help to get the concept across. I usually point out how the priorities of end users and those of operators differ: and it's the operators who are the manufacturer's biggest customers. For example, some phones put Send an MMS above Send an SMS on a menu Yes, totally - being able to reconfigure your menus to the order that you most commonly use (or even to have the option of the phone doing this automatically, so it 'naturally smooths' to your common usage) is an example I have used. I have also used the example of the 'home screen' having a simple graph of how many inclusive minutes your subscription plan has in total, and how many are remaining, and when you go to make a call, an indication of the cost per minute to that number at this time, if it is not in the inclusive minutes. Operaters would utterly, utterly, hate this kind of feature, but I can't think of any user who wouldn't want it :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
Hey Bryan, This is a very interesting thread, it almost qualify as a very primitive market report for OpenMoko. :-) For me personally, I would like the phone to be a commercial success. Commercial success means a higher chance of version 2 beyond of the phone being considered by FIC. Commercial success also means a critical mass would have been reached for market penetration. This could mean that good developers could develop great and innovative applications for the phone full time, and be able to make a living from it. Commercial success also means getting the non-coders excited about this phone, and want to buy it and use it. Without commercial success, I fear that this platform won't survive past this iteration. Cheers, Tehn Yit Chin ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Combine a SoC and memory on a SD card or Usb device...Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
Dnia piątek, 26 stycznia 2007 13:55, Robert Michel napisał: For real paranoid sellers: Build a chip with memory and an embedded system on a microSD card or mini usb device and sell this. Use an unique encryption for every embdded system so that even hacking out the program from the embedded memory wouldn't run. If part of application will run on this external device then it will be quite good protection. But if it will be used as sort of 'protection key' only then it will be breakable like it was with PC software which used hardware keys connected to parallel port. All what is needed is good cracker, legal copy and some time to analyze connection applicationkey and software emulator of key will be created. -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant I saw what you did and I know who you are. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Combine a SoC and memory on a SD card or Usb device...Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
Salve Marcin! On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Marcin Juszkiewicz wrote: Dnia pi?tek, 26 stycznia 2007 13:55, Robert Michel napisa?: For real paranoid sellers: Build a chip with memory and an embedded system on a microSD card or mini usb device and sell this. Use an unique encryption for every embdded system so that even hacking out the program from the embedded memory wouldn't run. If part of application will run on this external device then it will be quite good protection. I thought to let the important part or even the full application running on the external device. Such an external SoC could also boost up the power of the device, e.g. when you want to have a game or more multimedia power... Beside the Network/Webbrowser idea, it could be also FreeNX. So when it is not about protection of software, take a NSLU2, a laptop or Playstation3 (5kg) with you, plug it with 12/230V connect it with Bluetooth/USB to your Neo and use your OpenMoko/Neo1973 as terminal with FreeNX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NX_technology *g* rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: WiFi
On Friday 26 January 2007 09:31:18 Richi Plana wrote: True that. I can't think of an application right now for 11n on a phone. But then again, someone said 640KB of RAM was sufficient for the desktop. :) Sure, but unlike with DOS, there's nothing stopping the devs from adding N when we need it... pgp90ZmjO4NVR.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Will the OSDL/MLI have a yearly report as well? Re: LiMo foundation
Salve David! On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, David Schlesinger wrote: ACCESS is a participating member of both OSDL's Mobile Linux Initiative and of the Linux Phone Standards Forum--I'm acting chair of the MLI Steering Committee and vice-chair of LiPS' Architectural Working Group--and we've contributed to the requirements documents, API specifications, etc. for both those groups. I found this today and that the OSDL/DTL (Desktop working goup) has published it's yearly report and came to the statement that 2006 has been the year of the linux desktop: http://www.desktoplinux.com/articles/AT3453502692.html Linux Organisation membership and organisation politics is not my business, but from the linux-user point of view it is a little confusing that OpenMoko/Neo1973 isn't mentioned here: http://old.linux-foundation.org/lab_activities/mobile_linux/mli Maybe it is not the right time to ask/talk about this, but I think that OSDL is doing good work for promoting Linux and that linking and cooperation would be a bennefit for both OSDL/MLI and OpenMoko... Or let it me say in that way, it would be nice to read about OpenMoko/Neo1973 in a yearly report of OSDL/MLI, at last in the report about year 2007. So I don't think it's accurate to paint those as four different, separate and unrelated parallel efforts. It's our plan of record that the ACCESS Linux Platform will converge with both MLI guidelines and requirements and the set of LiPS-specified applications APIs. Can you, or Sean, when it doesn't take to much time, say something about OpenMoko and OSDL/MLI? Greetings, rob PS: IMHO LiMo looks like powered by lawers and I think that this foundation is not a cooperation by their hearts - so we will have several advantages/chances to have a better, more efficent cooperation. ;) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Running linux programs
Welcome! The answer to your question is Yes. If you want more specific information, please read the following resources for the technical how-to; it's all out there. To search the mailing list: In your favorite search engine: site:lists.openmoko.org [keyword(s)] 2007 Neo1973 Roadmap: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/00.html OpenMoko blog: http://planet.openmoko.org/ OpenMoko Wikipedia Entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openmoko Software Framework Wikipedia Entry: (includes homepage where you can download env.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Openembedded Hope this helps! Sam From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ? Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 9:27 AM To: community@lists.openmoko.org Subject: Running linux programs Hi all! Sorry, if I'm breaking some rules. I didn't find how to search maillists...so... Will I be able to run my linux programs on OpenMoko? After recompilation, of course. NOTICE: This e-mail message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information of Motricity. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
There is no management in a company of one or two people. Two guys I know invested time into porting their game from PalmOS to phones. It didn't sell at all but was pirated quite a lot. Indeed, it was not about the DRM in this case: There was some variation of it and it was easily cracked. The problem was that it was more easy to pirate the game than buy it for many people and that there was no respect for developers in the phone scene. That's why I think that a central official marketplace with fair rates for developers would be a good idea. In the Palm scene there are central marketplaces so software is easy to buy but they take advantage of that by ripping off developers. On 1/26/07, Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Twas brillig at 01:17:56 26.01.2007 UTC+01 when Ortwin Regel did gyre and gimble: OR I share your opinions but try to tell that to some OR developers... :-/ They feel safer if they can bind their program OR to only work with one hotsync ID, one device, one SD card... I bet it's not the developers, but management who enforces this. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:12, Jeff Andros wrote: as I understand it, you can get more value out of the accellerometer than that in the simplest case, we know a gps can be off by a certain percent. say you leave the phone still for a long time, you could average the error and get more precise over time (yeah, there'll be some skew... but we can trust the law of averages to help us out some) now, say you were aware of the motion of the device, you could still account for that motion in the averaging process (A-meter says I've gone 2 feet, gps says I've gone 3... pretty safe to say I'm between those) one of the real weaknesses of the accellerometer(INS) are long-term integration errors, and the biggest weakness of gps is short term precision... put the two together and they complement each other REALLY well. our (US) military has been using this combination for years with really great(horrible?) results... it'd be great to put this to a peaceful use as well -- Jeff O|||O We also need to take into account that accelerometers measure acceleration. If you accelerating or decelerating it will be able to tell you the magnitude of the force and you can time the duration to find the distance traveled. However, suppose that you are moving at a constant velocity, the accelerometer will measure 0 (zero) acceleration. Most true vehicle dead reckoning systems also include a sensor for the vehicle speed, which in combination with gps can provide you with something the accelerometer can't. The ability to know how far you have traveled at a constant or accelerating speed. Anyway, since attaching a sensor to the car may not be possible its a moot point. Just thought I would add a few more cents in. As a side note... In the US and probably other countries there is a standard for the interface to the car computer. From that interface you can get the vehicle speed and diagnostic information about how the engine is running. It might be interesting to have some kind of bluetooth car interface to obtain that information and display it for you while you are in your car. Anyone ever heard of anything like that? --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Possibilities for commercial software?
Dave, whilst all software is free - rent isn't (oh and that nasty habit of eating every 6-8 hours is a real bitch as well). Of course there will be commercial software available for the OpenMoko community. And once a developer puts a price on an application, should you 'share' or 'unauthorise copy' an application then you are a pirate. Unless of course you don't mind me coming over and 'sharing' your refrigerator. Regards, Dean Collins Cognation Pty Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-212-203-4357 Ph +1-917-207-3420 Mb +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Crossland Sent: Friday, 26 January 2007 10:55 AM To: OpenMoko Subject: Re: Possibilities for commercial software? On 26/01/07, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Two guys I know invested time into porting their game from PalmOS to phones. It didn't sell at all but was pirated quite a lot. Proprietary software developers often refer to unauthorised copying as piracy. This terms implies that copying is ethically equivalent to attacking ships on the high seas, kidnapping and murdering the people on them. If you don't believe that sharing is just like kidnapping and murder, you might prefer not to use the word piracy to describe it. There are neutral terms, like unauthorized copying, and positive terms like sharing with friends. That's why I think that a central official marketplace with fair rates for developers would be a good idea. I think that selling free software is a great idea, and totally support a central official marketplace that allows developers to recieve money for their great work. I do not think that proprietary software should be allowed though, because it contradicts the spirit of free your phone -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Neo Carputer (was: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer)
On 1/26/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a side note... In the US and probably other countries there is a standard for the interface to the car computer. From that interface you can get the vehicle speed and diagnostic information about how the engine is running. It might be interesting to have some kind of bluetooth car interface to obtain that information and display it for you while you are in your car. Anyone ever heard of anything like that? You're speaking of OBD or CAN. There are some good interfaces out there, though the auto companies try to protect their information. It would be neat to build a plotter/scanner interface for measuring the car sensors on the Neo using either bluetooth or serial/usb. Bluetooth OBD scanner: http://www.vitalengineering.co.uk/ Open-source OBD scanner python software: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~donour/cars/pyobd/ See my del.icio.us bookmarks (http://del.icio.us/nilspace/carputer) for more links (and others on del.icio.us) Andrew ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On 26/01/07, Dean Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave, whilst all software is free - rent isn't (oh and that nasty habit of eating every 6-8 hours is a real bitch as well). Of course there will be commercial software available for the OpenMoko community. If this is commercial free software, that is fantastic :-) If this is commercial proprietary software, that is a real shame :-( And once a developer puts a price on an application, should you 'share' or 'unauthorise copy' an application then you are a pirate. Are you seriously telling me that all your software is licensed, and you never, ever, do anything outside the license terms? :-) Unless of course you don't mind me coming over and 'sharing' your refrigerator. I would mind because you can't copy food in the refrigerator. If you took it without asking, that would be stealing, and stealing is wrong. But copying isn't stealing. If I shoplift some food from my local store, no one else can buy it. But when I copy software, no one loses it and another person gets it. There's no ethical problem. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A cool device must have a powerfull e-book reader
On 25/01/07, Ketut P. Kumajaya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have ported FBReader for Motorola E680i/A780 mobile phone and I am sure FBReader author only need a couple hour time to make it run on OpenMoko if he has access to OpenMoko device. http://only.mawhrin.net/fbreader I can't see a way to donate to your project. Perhaps you could consider setting up a way for happy users to donate to your project, in time for when the Neo is on sale? :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Unified Profile Management (Should be part of Moko Core Apps)
One thing that should be developed is a unified profile manager (and well defined API). With all of the application possibilities, there are going to be several programs that will take action based on (location, time, schedule, whatever). One of the most frustrating things is to have several different applications all trying to do some of the same things (and subsequently configuring each app on what to do). So instead of each app controlling low-level functions (sound level, ringtone, bluetooth, gps, backlight level and power features) there would be user-configurable profiles. The apps would change profiles instead of the low-level functions. Example. Instead of a calendar app just muting the phone when in a meeting (nice feature) it would activate a profile (maybe silent or meeting). Other apps could also use those profiles. For instance a GPS location aware app could know to use the same silent or meeting profile when you were at movies, church (or anywhere you wouldn't want your phone to ring). Not only will this make for a MUCH better user experience (less redundant work). It will GREATLY speed up application development (no complex interface for what to do just a single simple dropdown what profile for this action/trigger). Take a look at this app. But just imagine how much more powerful it could be if it were fundamentally integrated into the OS. http://www.pocketzenphone.net/PZPForum/index.php FYI, I've purchased and used the app. It is top notch for anyone out there in the PocketPC Phone camp. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Carputer (was: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer)
You're speaking of OBD or CAN. There are some good interfaces out there, though the auto companies try to protect their information. It would be neat to build a plotter/scanner interface for measuring the car sensors on the Neo using either bluetooth or serial/usb. Bluetooth OBD scanner: http://www.vitalengineering.co.uk/ Open-source OBD scanner python software: http://www.cs.unm.edu/~donour/cars/pyobd/ See my del.icio.us bookmarks (http://del.icio.us/nilspace/carputer) for more links (and others on del.icio.us) Andrew You got it. That's what I was thinking about. It would be sweet to have all that information sent to and plotted real time as the car is running. --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
Can I call you a 'pirate' if you do share his fridge? Joking aside I think that you may have missed the point here. When I write an app for OpenMoko _if_ I decided to ask for money for that app I'm the sort of guy who wouldn't mind if someone else shared it with friends, modified the code etc. Hopefully they will send changes back to me. I believe the idea being put forward is to offer a market place where free software can be sold on the basis that a user would like to express their gratitude and that hopefully the marketplace will also be the easiest way to get hold of an application. You could in many ways consider the market place to have failed if it is easier for joe blogs user to get the software from another source. I am, obviously, not refering to proprietary software. If you want to sell that through the market place then it should be just as easy. if you want drm to lock down your app then I don't want that in any way to impact ease of use of the market place - deal with that yourself. I am guessing that people more idealistic or eloquent then I will explain the moral dilema of providing proprietary software, and supporting it. I am not sure it's something that needs to get flamed here. In summary: The market place should be so simple to use that is always the easiest and quickest place for average users to get hold of apps. -Pete On 26/01/07, Dean Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave, whilst all software is free - rent isn't (oh and that nasty habit of eating every 6-8 hours is a real bitch as well). Of course there will be commercial software available for the OpenMoko community. And once a developer puts a price on an application, should you 'share' or 'unauthorise copy' an application then you are a pirate. Unless of course you don't mind me coming over and 'sharing' your refrigerator. Regards, Dean Collins Cognation Pty Ltd [EMAIL PROTECTED] +1-212-203-4357 Ph +1-917-207-3420 Mb +61-2-9016-5642 (Sydney in-dial). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Crossland Sent: Friday, 26 January 2007 10:55 AM To: OpenMoko Subject: Re: Possibilities for commercial software? On 26/01/07, Ortwin Regel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Two guys I know invested time into porting their game from PalmOS to phones. It didn't sell at all but was pirated quite a lot. Proprietary software developers often refer to unauthorised copying as piracy. This terms implies that copying is ethically equivalent to attacking ships on the high seas, kidnapping and murdering the people on them. If you don't believe that sharing is just like kidnapping and murder, you might prefer not to use the word piracy to describe it. There are neutral terms, like unauthorized copying, and positive terms like sharing with friends. That's why I think that a central official marketplace with fair rates for developers would be a good idea. I think that selling free software is a great idea, and totally support a central official marketplace that allows developers to recieve money for their great work. I do not think that proprietary software should be allowed though, because it contradicts the spirit of free your phone -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Some thoughts about the real importanted dates for OpenMoko/Neo1973 3GSM World 2007 Barcelona this year ...Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
I have to admit that I kind of agree with Marcus, especially in terms of leveraging the free marketing that will happen from an early release. But in order to do this properly, we need to better organize the OpenMoko support infrastructure. Support will be required for: * Hardware issues * Core software applications * Software stack issues Marcus, how do you propose this will be done? I think we need to first leverage the community to create a support infrastructure with at least the following minimum requirements: * a Bug/Feature tracking system per component of the software stack to track development/progress. * a Wiki which we can use to create the HOWTOs, FAQs, and other guides which we can publish in PDF (or whatever) as manuals etc. What do you think about that? On 1/25/07, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 03:42 +0100, Robert Michel wrote: I don't think that people buy a new phone to going on holiday with the new phone - AFAIK the most phones are sold November-January. People buy phones all year round. And those that do so before their holidays will come back and make perfect mouth-to-mouth propaganda. And when November comes the others will base their buying decision on exactly that. It is perfect leverage at zero cost that you miss out. I bet that in the christmas season 2008 (not this year) you will have plenty of phones with GPS and VGA screens. And plenty of big companies throwing big marketing dollars at it. After the flame ware GNU Linux I fear the next flame on this list. Marcus your sound was absolutly childish, ego-based and unproductive. Not at all. The best thing that could happen is a success of OpenMoko and FIC. Waiting with the phone until after the summer season is a huge loss in free marketing. Just keep my mail and re-read it in two years. On the long term for nobody of us is it important to start in January, or March That's not true. It is a waste of first mover advantage. Once Google comes out with a phone (unless they buy from FIC and use OpenMoko) the market gets really tight. Marcus ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
R: R: Need info on AGPS
One thing that we should look into is to have something like an RSS Feed of that data, which can be downloaded everytime we have a cheap (bluetooth, usbnet) IP connectivity. Then cache all that data locally. As far as I understand: GPS ephemeris cannot be really cached in the Neo given their unpredictable nature. If they are valid for just 2 hours, then the Neo MUST get the new ephemeris every 2 hours to keep AGPS alive. So, either the Neo is in network range (USB cable or via the Bluetooth bridge, until we have WiFi) or there is no other choice and download them via GPRS. Please correct me if I am wrong! Bye Michele -Messaggio originale- Da: Harald Welte [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Inviato: giovedì 25 gennaio 2007 17.51 A: Marcus Bauer Cc: Michele Manzato; community@lists.openmoko.org Oggetto: Re: R: Need info on AGPS On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 05:12:09PM +0100, Marcus Bauer wrote: On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:24 +0100, Harald Welte wrote: 3. A-GPS involves additional data traffic and thus (potential) additional costs. Does it use a normal GSM/GPRS IP-based data transfer? does it use some out-of-band GSM/GPRS control messages? or does it get data from broadcasts in the local cell (e.g. GSM cell-broadcast)? AFAIK: GPRS. so its up to you whether you want that extra traffic (and cost, unless you're flat) or not. The Global Locate docs state TCP/IP as one possible way. So via USB-network or BT should be possible too. What do you think do we run on top of usbnet and bluetooth BNEP ? The answer is: TCP/IP ;) So anything that uses TCP/IP and can be attached to the phone will be able to connect the AGPS server[s]. You need it only once for the first fix. It is ~2KB for all satellites and valid for 2-4 hours. Precomputed for a week maybe 1MB. One thing that we should look into is to have something like an RSS Feed of that data, which can be downloaded everytime we have a cheap (bluetooth, usbnet) IP connectivity. Then cache all that data locally. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.10/651 - Release Date: 24/01/2007 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/653 - Release Date: 26/01/2007 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: LiMo foundation
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 10:22 -0500, Gervais Mulongoy wrote: Applications get written over and over again because people are not satisfied with the way things are. Well, it's not actually that simple. There are actually quite a few reasons. NIH being one of the most irritating. But even if it was some valid feature that the software lacked, why do most people start from scratch? Take the state of music players on Linux. Music players have various components these days: the file/stream decoder, the music player, playlist management, CD burning, visualization, Internet radio station management, etc. Most of the time when somebody decides they have a feature in one of these components they want implemented, they start from scratch. Why can't I take components from each project and string them together and make modifications on the ones I want? For one thing, many of these projects aren't modular. For another, use of the various components are limited to the language they were written in and everything is linked at compile-time. This last part I really, really hate: how components are language-dependent. .NET got this part right. But that's not even the point. What I would like to know is if any one has managed to get Maemo working on anything other than a Nokia? Because if they have, how hard do you think it would be to replace the OpenMoko software stack with the Maemo software stack? And if it isn't hard how long do you think it will take for developers and users like us to muster up the will to say that we are fed up with the non-cooperativeness? My point (and I think we agree on this) isn't so much that there are so many choices to choose from, but that very few of these choices were designed to cooperate with one another. It's not like assembling a computer where I can take any PCI device from any manufacturer and plug it into any mobo I choose and put that in any ATX case that's available. For that conformity, I think we have MS to partly thank, as well, :). I agree with you that things must be done The Right Way(TM) and that the end product Just Works(TM). Though developer won't always agree on one Right Way, they should still write their stuff so that it doesn't preclude the opposing camps from using their stuff. In order to please the user, the first thing software must do is not piss the user off. What things piss you off about software you use? Can you name a few? As a user, I hate products with a steep learning curve. I also hate ones which are either non-intuitive or that have a poor or overly cumbersome help system (compare and contrast the text editors joe and emacs). Finally, I hate software which don't give me access to the full potential of my hardware. If I can imagine a use for the device, it should be made possible by the software. For a while, Gnome, in its goal to make their interface user-friendly, almost lost my interest in it when I found that it actually slowed down the way I worked on it as they started taking out stuff or modifying them. I actually have high hopes for OpenMoko. I just wish that whatever effort I put into making it a great platform can and will be taken advantage off by other, similar Linux-based phones / devices. -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
We also need to take into account that accelerometers measure acceleration. If you accelerating or decelerating it will be able to tell you the magnitude of the force and you can time the duration to find the distance traveled. However, suppose that you are moving at a constant velocity, the accelerometer will measure 0 (zero) acceleration. Most true vehicle dead reckoning systems also include a sensor for the vehicle speed, which in combination with gps can provide you with something the accelerometer can't. The ability to know how far you have traveled at a constant or accelerating speed. Anyway, since attaching a sensor to the car may not be possible its a moot point. Just thought I would add a few more cents in. As a side note... In the US and probably other countries there is a standard for the interface to the car computer. From that interface you can get the vehicle speed and diagnostic information about how the engine is running. It might be interesting to have some kind of bluetooth car interface to obtain that information and display it for you while you are in your car. Anyone ever heard of anything like that? --Tim yes, accelerometers measure acceleration. The first derivative of acceleration is velocity. Granted errors in the accelerometer compound when deriving velocity, but you've usually got GPS information to calibrate against (As Jeff was saying). A typical dead reckoning system always knows your current velocity, and when GPS goes away, it can apply changes to the velocity by knowing only your current acceleration. The errors associated with this would typically be small enough to not matter during the length of a tunnel or building related GPS blackout. So, an accelerometer (actually, three) is all that is needed for a complete navigation with dead reckoning. An accelerometer could have other nifty applications. Here's a few: Tape measure: walk the unit from one corner of a room to another and see both the x and y (even z) distances. Would be very useful for construction and event production professionals Games: Use the entire device as a steering wheel in a car game, or yoke in a flying game Pedometer: if accurate enough, could count actual steps walked and convert that to calories burned. Or could count paces when following a pirate's treasure map. Subway system: Could tell you where you are, and wake you up or alert you when riding the subway. (Since no one can usually understand the announcements) --Steve ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
The point I bring from this is that if, for instance, TomTom has mapping software that I want to use, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get it. I should just be able to go into the market place, go to 'Non-Free Software', and buy the TomTom app. Your argument may be 'but every software for the phone really should be free - people will write it'. However, if someone hasn't come up with an absolutely free, modifiable mapping software, I should just be able to get the proprietary, closed version. It should be easier to do that than to look in the marketplace, conclude 'oh, this doesn't exist', and not get an OpenMoko phone because of it. If you feel allowing proprietary, closed software in hurts the 'free your phone' spirit, and the market place is closed to them, it only hurts the amount of applications available for the phone. I'm going to write a finance application for OpenMoko. Is it going to be free and open source? Yes. However, if I were trying to live off of it, it would be very hard to make it free and open source. Even in areas such as being a waiter where tips are expected and there is a known steady stream of customers giving tips, tips alone aren't sufficient. Thanks. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Required Software
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 09:00 -0500, Duncan Hudson wrote: I'm sure that this has been discussed, but there will be a VPN client pre-installed right? I know it's open source and I'm free to put what I want but don't you think there should be a pre-installed client that is certified to work with the most popular business and prosumer router / vpn boxes. I've been working with Linux for such a long time and I'm not sure what that VPN client is. Truth is, though most popular network devices (Cisco, etc.) use VPN that Linux supports, it's Microsoft's VPN system that's most prevalent in the companies I've encountered. Does anyone know which VPN system works with MS? The choices for Linux I'm aware of are Open/FreeSWAN (IPSec), Cisco VPN 5000 client, PPTP VPN and OpenVPN (SSL-based). Security is very important to roaming devices which have to go through public infrastructures like the Internet. -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
This should be put on the Wiki under Advocacy (or similar): On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 09:16 +, Andrew Loughran wrote: If anyone needs examples of how phones connect behind ones back, I can provide a fair few. I had the O2 XDA Orbit. It looks like a smashing phone, but the software on it lets it down massively. The carrier have changed the software's functionality, so even when you disable GPRS connection (like putting the phone into flight mode, but with just GPRS) the software turns it back on. This led to a bill of £26 after just 5 days of having the phone. Needless to say, the phone went back, and I'm now sitting on my hands until I graduate from Uni, carry on my professional career, and hopefully get my hands on the neo1973 in September. I must say, the experience with integrated GPS was probably the best thing about the phone. I had to visit a client - the GPS took me to the nearest car park, then I was able to use walk mode to find my way right to their front door. I had a handheld GPS before, which one couldn't really use to the same extent. -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Will the OSDL/MLI have a yearly report as well? Re: LiMo foundation
Linux Organisation membership and organisation politics is not my business, but from the linux-user point of view it is a little confusing that OpenMoko/Neo1973 isn't mentioned here: http://old.linux-foundation.org/lab_activities/mobile_linux/mli Not too confusing. It's not a recent page, and the information on there was provided by members (of which FIC is not currently one, although we've invited them to participate...) Or let it me say in that way, it would be nice to read about OpenMoko/Neo1973 in a yearly report of OSDL/MLI, at last in the report about year 2007. No doubt, but such a yearly report would be a recap of MLI's activities, like DCL's, not a general survey of what's been going on outside the group in the world of Mobile Linux at large so much. Remember: we only first heard of OpenMoko and FIC at Open Source in Mobile 2007, back in November, and--frankly speaking--there's not really much concrete substance to say about it as yet. Can you, or Sean, when it doesn't take to much time, say something about OpenMoko and OSDL/MLI? Not much, really, for the reasons cited above. OpenMoko seems like a worthy and interesting effort, and we'd welcome the participation of FIC in the Linux Foundation or in LiPS whenever they're prepared to join us. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Possibilities for commercial software?
Two guys I know invested time into porting their game from PalmOS to phones. It didn't sell at all but was pirated quite a lot. Proprietary software developers often refer to unauthorised copying as piracy. This terms implies that copying is ethically equivalent to attacking ships on the high seas, kidnapping and murdering the people on them. If you don't believe that sharing is just like kidnapping and murder, you might prefer not to use the word piracy to describe it. Perhaps you might care to look into the definition of piracy. While it doesn't particularly have anything to do with either kidnapping or murder, _theft_ (or unauthorized taking if you prefer) is certainly at the core of it. What Ortwin has described is theft. The term piracy is apropos. Why do you appear to think stealing and profiting from the work of others, or at the very least taking legitimate profits away from those who are entitled to them, is ethical? And why are you attempting to suggest more politically correct terminology for criminal activities? Why would anyone want a neutral term for having had something stolen from me...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Neo Carputer (was: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer)
I mentioned this in another thread too, but a usb-svga adapter with bluetooth, audio, the CAN or other car electronic interface would make a sophisticated docking station that the Neo would be plugged into when driving. Another application that follows would be to use the GPS combined with a bluetooth headset to make a map system speak it's directions as your moving, like some car GPS units do, although there is no open-source system that could do that at the moment. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Richi Plana Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 12:06 PM To: community Subject: Re: Neo Carputer (was: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer) On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 11:06 -0500, Andrew Turner wrote: On 1/26/07, Tim Newsom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a side note... In the US and probably other countries there is a standard for the interface to the car computer. From that interface you can get the vehicle speed and diagnostic information about how the engine is running. It might be interesting to have some kind of bluetooth car interface to obtain that information and display it for you while you are in your car. Anyone ever heard of anything like that? You're speaking of OBD or CAN. There are some good interfaces out there, though the auto companies try to protect their information. It would be neat to build a plotter/scanner interface for measuring the car sensors on the Neo using either bluetooth or serial/usb. On my car, the interface is an OBDII. TurboXS http://www.turboxs.com/ has written a program (DTEC Boost Controller Pro (DTEC-BC-PRO) http://www.turboxs.com/shop_car4.php?car=20) that turns a Nintendo Gameboy DS into a Boost Controller. I have a Linux-based carputer that reads off data from the Subaru, so why not a cellphone (via USB)? It's fun! -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 1/26/07 5:39 AM, Mary Stovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The OpenMoko appeals to me because it is innovative and cool looking. Also, I am tired of having to replace my phone...I have 5 right now that are useless. I want a phone that can update and add applications that I want. I want a phone that I can just slip in a sim from what ever provider gives me the best deal.I was thinking, if the OpenMoko phone had an easy way for people to add applications like the Widgets, the average user would like it. ( I would be willing to pay the developer after a trial). Mary, Thanks a lot for posting this kind of comment. It's very down to earth and definitely a need we hope to be able to fulfill in the near future. Please stick around and give us all comments when we ship this phase 1 handset. I would really like to have non-coders supplying feedback, too. -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
CallWave
There was some mention on this list a while ago about an iPhone-style Visual Voicemail system. The following service could be a really good replacement, if your carrier supports it: CallWave: http://www.callwave.com/ Discovered via: http://www.therawfeed.com/2007/01/why-wait-for-iphone- visual-voicemail.html J. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
On 1/26/07 8:47 AM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just get the shit out and stop talking about September. Get the brain share into it - nobody will mind if you keep doing the decisions. Can we please keep this list civilized? This is a great opportunity for Linux/Open Source (add GNU to your liking. It is called first mover advantage and emerging market. Jeez, you are Mr. OE, just get that stuff running and the rest will happen by itself. And yes, it is a good thing if you keep steering it for a while like a dictator. Marcus, these kind of comments are not constructive at all. Mickey is a core member of OpenMoko and is doing an amazing job. You haven't even seen the work he's done and you're already bashing us? What is your point? I don't see where you're hoping to go with this? -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Neo Carputer (was: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer)
On 1/26/07, Crane, Matthew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I mentioned this in another thread too, but a usb-svga adapter with bluetooth, audio, the CAN or other car electronic interface would make a sophisticated docking station that the Neo would be plugged into when driving. Another application that follows would be to use the GPS combined with a bluetooth headset to make a map system speak it's directions as your moving, like some car GPS units do, although there is no open-source system that could do that at the moment. Maemo Mapper can do maps, directions, and voice-speak navigation. Doesn't tie into a BT headset or accept voice commands (I don't think) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Some thoughts about the real importanted dates for OpenMoko/Neo1973 3GSM World 2007 Barcelona this year ...Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
Salve Gervais! On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Gervais Mulongoy wrote: I have to admit that I kind of agree with Marcus, especially in terms of leveraging the free marketing that will happen from an early release. But please not with a buggy hardware... But in order to do this properly, we need to better organize the OpenMoko support infrastructure. Support will be required for: * Hardware issues * Core software applications * Software stack issues Marcus, how do you propose this will be done? I think we need to first leverage the community to create a support infrastructure with at least the following minimum requirements: * a Bug/Feature tracking system per component of the software stack to track development/progress. * a Wiki which we can use to create the HOWTOs, FAQs, and other guides which we can publish in PDF (or whatever) as manuals etc. Ahh haven't your read Sean mails? http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001586.html 2007-02-11 Phase 0: Developer Preview We will give away free phones to selected members of the developer community. At this point, the full source code to the OpenMoko Linux Distribution will become publicly available. We are committed to cooperating with the community in the interest of making the official developer launch a smooth experience. In the last month we've seen a huge increase of interest in OpenMoko. To be perfectly honest, we're doing this give away as a system of checks and balances. We want to get the framework right, the first time around. Also, at this time, the following community dedicated websites will be available: * http://openmoko.org/ -- for the actual development community * http://wiki.openmoko.org/ -- for an official wiki of the project * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/ -- for bug tracking * http://lists.openmoko.org/ -- for public mailing lists * http://planet.openmoko.org/ -- for an aggregated feed * http://projects.openmoko.org/ -- for user-contributed projects What do you think about that? Is it realy so hart to spend patients for 2-3 weeks? hu? Now to Marcus answer: On 1/25/07, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 03:42 +0100, Robert Michel wrote: I don't think that people buy a new phone to going on holiday with the new phone - AFAIK the most phones are sold November-January. People buy phones all year round. And those that do so before their holidays will come back and make perfect mouth-to-mouth propaganda. And when November comes the others will base their buying decision on exactly that. It is perfect leverage at zero cost that you miss out. I bet that in the christmas season 2008 (not this year) you will have plenty of phones with GPS and VGA screens. And plenty of big companies throwing big marketing dollars at it. But you don't want to start selling Neo1973s to normal users with just only a dialer? [EMAIL PROTECTED] dial -now +492419968183 After the flame ware GNU Linux I fear the next flame on this list. Marcus your sound was absolutly childish, ego-based and unproductive. Not at all. The best thing that could happen is a success of OpenMoko and FIC. Waiting with the phone until after the summer season is a huge loss in free marketing. Just keep my mail and re-read it in two years. Hey guy! I was talking about your sound! And I'm quite shure that I would say again in 2 years, that it was absolutly respectless. On the long term for nobody of us is it important to start in January, or March That's not true. It is a waste of first mover advantage. Once Google comes out with a phone (unless they buy from FIC and use OpenMoko) the market gets really tight. Isn't the market already really tight and who is saying that Google will bring a OpenSource mobile? I'm absolutly shure that the team would prefer to ship the first phones directly in November, instead of February or March... And can you consider that by not beeing Google or Apple it isn't so easy to start selling mass of devices? I have mentioned the GSM World in Barcelona - even when OpenMoko/FIC is there not directly with an on stand, I think someone will goe there and it will be important that he could show a running device. Can you consider that this is more important than shipping the first devices to the developer now or in two weeks? Are you reading http://planet.openmoko.org/? Have you seen 2007-01-24 three days ago, that the stereo speaker was used the first time: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/01/24#20070124-omoko_update So please spend respect and patient for 2-3 weeks and do not try to be more worse than economic management of normal companies stressing the developer to bring 90% finished trash to the market. Will you make Sean sorrow to start this mailinglist in November instead of February 2007? And from a marketing view, think about Rods statement:
Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 9:12, Steven Milburn wrote: yes, accelerometers measure acceleration. The first derivative of acceleration is velocity. Granted errors in the accelerometer compound when deriving velocity, but you've usually got GPS information to calibrate against (As Jeff was saying). A typical dead reckoning system always knows your current velocity, and when GPS goes away, it can apply changes to the velocity by knowing only your current acceleration. The errors associated with this would typically be small enough to not matter during the length of a tunnel or building related GPS blackout. So, an accelerometer (actually, three) is all that is needed for a complete navigation with dead reckoning. snip --Steve Ok Steve. I grant you that the first derivative of acceleration is velocity... How do you propose to gain any velocity information when the acceleration measured is zero as would be the case if you are at a constant velocity? This is why I am saying you would need some better source for velocity. I grant you that the times when a car is at a constant velocity may be few... Or it may be that when on cruise control on any flat road you may actually see zero or almost zero acceleration. OTOH, detecting the direction that a person turned with the accelerometer may be very useful in dead reckoning. --Tim --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will the OSDL/MLI have a yearly report as well? Re: LiMo foundation
On 1/27/07 12:57 AM, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Linux Organisation membership and organisation politics is not my business, but from the linux-user point of view it is a little confusing that OpenMoko/Neo1973 isn't mentioned here: http://old.linux-foundation.org/lab_activities/mobile_linux/mli Not too confusing. It's not a recent page, and the information on there was provided by members (of which FIC is not currently one, although we've invited them to participate...) Please don't take this a meaning anything other than we have zero free time ;-) -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
Sean please just ignore idiots like this. The rest of us know you're doing the best job you can and want to see the phone out ASAP just as much as we do. In summary: ignore the trolls and keep doing what you're doing. --pj On Saturday, Jan 27, 2007, Sean Moss-Pultz writes: On 1/26/07 9:40 AM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fact that I didn't answer to that mail doesn't mean I didn't read it. Should I now say you obviously didn't follow your own annoucements and didn't read the topic you set on IRC because you said the phone would come out in January? Listen, there's nobody on this list that wishes we'd had this phone out in January more than I. But delays happen. You can't seriously be calling us liars now are you? -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 10:58 -0600, Jonathon Suggs wrote:Dave Crossland wrote: But when I copy software, no one loses it and another person gets it. There's no ethical problem. Sorry Dave, but you are wrong. There IS an ethical problem. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that you should. I don't think that that's Dave's argument. It's not doing something because you can that you should. (I can steal a bottle of Coke, but I shouldn't.) I think what he's trying to say is that you're not taking anything from a person that lessens what he originally had. With physical items, this is easier to comprehend: steal his car and he has one less car to use. Things like music, software and ideas aren't as tangible, but they can still contribute to a loss. It's kinda tricky, though. Let's say you never had intentions of buying a piece of music. In that case, you would never be a sale. So if you downloaded that piece of music, it wouldn't be lost revenue. But if you gave it away to others who might have been potential buyers, that's lost revenue. Ideas. Stealing ideas for profit (or to take someone's profit away) is the whole concept behind patents. Software is just an idea turned into code. There's tangible and measurable work done there. Perhaps in this case it isn't that somebody is losing something but that their work is taken advantage of for free. Grey areas. -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 09:41 -0800, Tim Newsom wrote: Ok Steve. I grant you that the first derivative of acceleration is velocity... How do you propose to gain any velocity information when the acceleration measured is zero as would be the case if you are at a constant velocity? This is why I am saying you would need some better source for velocity. I grant you that the times when a car is at a constant velocity may be few... Or it may be that when on cruise control on any flat road you may actually see zero or almost zero acceleration. I probably shouldn't engage this thread since most of it is academic till official word is made regarding accelerometers, but what the heck? Theoretically, if one tells the device to assume the velocity at a given point in time is zero, then by carefully tracking the acceleration at various points in time, you can determine the velocity vector at present. The accuracy will be limited by how accurate the accelerometer is, the orientation of the device as well as the sampling rate, but with the lack of a connection between the car's information bus (CAN), it's one option. AGPS can also help determine velocity prior to entering the tunnel (which could be a good starting point for determining velocity based on differentials). -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Will the OSDL/MLI have a yearly report as well? Re: LiMo foundation
Not too confusing. It's not a recent page, and the information on there was provided by members (of which FIC is not currently one, although we've invited them to participate...) Please don't take this a meaning anything other than we have zero free time Oh, believe me, I understand completely, very likely better than most people on this list: I've actually _shipped_ commercial operating systems, and for a few companies... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
-- Forwarded message -- From: Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 26-Jan-2007 18:06 Subject: Re: Possibilities for commercial software? To: Peter A Trotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] (offlist) On 26/01/07, Peter A Trotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: proprietary software. If you want to sell that through the market place then it should be just as easy. if you want drm to lock down your app then I don't want that in any way to impact ease of use of the market place - deal with that yourself. Could you explain the difference between proprietary software with a license that legally tries to get users to only use on one computer at a time, no studying, no sharing, and proprietary software that uses DRM to technically prohibit these things? -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Will the OSDL/MLI have a yearly report as well? Re: LiMo foundation
On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 01:51 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Linux Organisation membership and organisation politics is not my business, but from the linux-user point of view it is a little confusing that OpenMoko/Neo1973 isn't mentioned here: http://old.linux-foundation.org/lab_activities/mobile_linux/mli Not too confusing. It's not a recent page, and the information on there was provided by members (of which FIC is not currently one, although we've invited them to participate...) Please don't take this a meaning anything other than we have zero free time ;-) There you go! I, for one, believe that with the lack of actions, intentions count. Sometimes they count for more than actions as those can be misinterpreted or constrained by unforseen and unwanted factors. It would be nice if all of these efforts come together. -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
On Friday 26 January 2007 18:41:50 Tim Newsom wrote: yes, accelerometers measure acceleration. The first derivative of acceleration is velocity. Ok Steve. I grant you that the first derivative of acceleration is velocity... I don't think so. The first derivative of VELOCITY is acceleration (i.e. integrate acceleration to get velocity as acceleration is the rate of change of velocity) if my high school physics doesn't totally fail me right now. This also means that if acceleration is zero, velocity simply is constant. And in order to have velocity 0 you must have encountered some acceleration at some point. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 10:04:54PM +0100, Ortwin Regel wrote: What about DRM, is there a way to bind a program to a sync ID like it's usually done with PalmOS or to a device ID? (It should be possible to bind it to an SD card ID, right?) While I'm not in charge of marketing or strategic decisions, the whole point of this project is to provide a truly open device, which gives all freedoms to the user. Any form of DRM will inevitably restrict the user and take away his freedom. I see a fundamental incompatibility with the mission and ideas of this project. So I sincerely doubt that OpenMoko would ever actively support proprietary applications (e.g. by DRM hooks). We certainly cannot do anything against them, though. Every user is free to decided whether he would want to run proprietary software (yes, that even includes the unfortunately proprietary GPSd) on his Neo1973. -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
planet.openmoko.org and openmoko-devel mailinglist
Hi! It is my pleaasure to announce two new resources of the OpenMoko project: 1) planet.openmoko.org See: http://planet.openmoko.org/ This is a PlanetPlanet RSS feed aggregator of blogs and journals by both official OpenMoko developers, and people in the comunity working on OpenMoko related projects. 2) [EMAIL PROTECTED] This is a mailinglist dedicated to OpenMoko development. From developers, for developers, by developers. Please do not ask questions related product sales, availability, support, usage, wishlist items, licensing or any other topic that is not related to technical development on this list. Initially, we didn't want to start this list before 'Phase 0' (Feb. 11), i.e. when there are actually developers with the device in their hands, and when the source code has been released. However, due to the large demand, we were convinced that it was important to start this list right now. Nonetheless, keep in mind that the OpenMoko development team is extremely small. Everybody is concentrating to make the 'Phase 0' release happen on schedule. Therefore, the amount of time that we can spend to deal with questions on the openmoko-devel list is very limited. Every minute we spend communicating with the outside world is one minute less of time for product development. Thus, openmoko-devel is mainly a forum for you, our external community of fans and supporters to help each other. You can subscribe to this list using the following URL: https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/openmoko-devel Thanks for your attention, Happy hacking, Harald Welte (Lead Software Architect - System Level) -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: planet.openmoko.org and openmoko-devel mailinglist
Twas brillig at 19:21:15 26.01.2007 UTC+01 when Harald Welte did gyre and gimble: HW 2) [EMAIL PROTECTED] HW This is a mailinglist dedicated to OpenMoko development. From HW developers, for developers, by developers. Could you explain a bit: is it mailing list for discussing development of OpenMoko itself only or also for duscussing develpment of applications for OpenMoko? -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 01:35 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Marcus, these kind of comments are not constructive at all. Mickey is a core member of OpenMoko and is doing an amazing job. You haven't even seen the work he's done and you're already bashing us? I honestly believe that OpenEmbedded is a marvellous solution for cross-compiling/building. No sarcasm when I say that Mickey deserves a monument for that. If he feels bashed I sincerely apologise - rest assured the opposite is true. The same goes for saying dictator: it is a concept that has Ubuntu made very successful. Mark Shuttleworth calls himself SABDFL, and the D stands for dictator. Nothing bad here. Just a leadership role for the ongoing development of the Moko-libs, once they are released. What is your point? I don't see where you're hoping to go with this? The actual point was a different one: there is no reason to shy away just because it is not perfect yet. It is understandable that FIC is not going to spend marketing dollars before the product as a whole has reached a certain level of maturity. But if you can produce enough phones, than let all the early adopters have them, whether they are developers or not. It simply creates lots of community drive and invaluable mouth-to-mouth propaganda. Unless you have severe restrictions in the numbers you can produce, just get as many people onto the phone as possible. Tell about the quirks and let the people decide if they want to go with it. The more people, the more feedback, the better the product in September. Marcus ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: planet.openmoko.org and openmoko-devel mailinglist
On Sat, Jan 27, 2007 at 12:28:19AM +0600, Mikhail Gusarov wrote: HW This is a mailinglist dedicated to OpenMoko development. From HW developers, for developers, by developers. Could you explain a bit: is it mailing list for discussing development of OpenMoko itself only or also for duscussing develpment of applications for OpenMoko? Mostly development of applications for OpenMoko. For the development of the OpenMoko Framework and orther system-level libraries, we currently use internal mailinglists. Those will become public once phase-0 starts. Discussing development _of_ OpenMoko without ever having had any source code release would be pretty funny anyway. For this, please wait for phase-0, review the sorce, and then make comments :) Cheers, -- - Harald Welte [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://openmoko.org/ Software for the worlds' first truly open Free Software mobile phone ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 01:37 +0800, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Listen, there's nobody on this list that wishes we'd had this phone out in January more than I. But delays happen. You can't seriously be calling us liars now are you? Gosh no, that would be nonsense! However I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to know if it is production constraints that shifted the final date to September or if it is a question of Marketing? If I'd have a wish free for this year, then it would be that OpenMoko becomes the predominant Mobile Plattform and as I like the form-factor of the Neo, for sure I'd like to see many Neos too. Marcus ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On 26/01/07, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really hate to get in on this discussion Talking about freedom is important, so thank you for your polite and rational contribution. Dave Crossland wrote: But when I copy software, no one loses it and another person gets it. There's no ethical problem. Sorry Dave, but you are wrong. There IS an ethical problem. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that you should. I agree that software (in most cases, but is still ultimately up to the creator) *should* be open and free as in speech. But whether or not it should be free as in beer is not your decision to make...it is the creators. So, just because you can share the software, doesn't mean that you should. If you do, then yes...you have an ethical problem...sorry. I'm sorry if my message was not clear. I totally agree with you. The original point was: It doesn't make sense to equate copying digital information with stealing physical objects. Of course, if you have an agreement not to copy, it is wrong to break that agreement. But it is more wrong to not share with your friends. Most people have an intuitive understanding of this, and share unauthorised copies. The agreement not to copy is based on copyright law, and this was originally created to benefit the public when they could not make their own copies. Now that we can make our own copies, a law prohibiting copying does not benefit us, so we break it. Most people have an intuitive understanding of this. How can we escape this moral dilemma, where we are being unethical with either choice? We can refuse to use proprietary software, and only use software that can share legally. That is the best thing to do. Besides, if you find the software useful don't you want to help in succeed? The software is only useful in so far as it benefits us. If it tries to divide our communities by prohibiting sharing, and makes us helpless to see how it works or change it, I don't think it benefits us. So I think it deserves to fail :-) -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
-- Forwarded message -- From: Sean Moss-Pultz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael 'Mickey' Lauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 01:37:39 +0800 Subject: Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters? On 1/26/07 9:40 AM, Marcus Bauer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fact that I didn't answer to that mail doesn't mean I didn't read it. Should I now say you obviously didn't follow your own annoucements and didn't read the topic you set on IRC because you said the phone would come out in January? Listen, there's nobody on this list that wishes we'd had this phone out in January more than I. But delays happen. You can't seriously be calling us liars now are you? -Sean Sean: I think you missed the sarcastic hyperbole that Marcus was attempting to use. He was basically saying that calling you liars would be about as wrong as assuming since he didn't reply, he must not have read a post. It's a weak comparison, but no, he's not seriously calling you all liars. I could be dead wrong here of course, but that's how I read it. Marcus: Either way, it was a pretty poor direction to take things in and does nothing to help foster the spirit of cooperation that will be needed to make this program a success. --Steve ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
Tim Newsom wrote: Ok Steve. I grant you that the first derivative of acceleration is velocity... How do you propose to gain any velocity information when the acceleration measured is zero as would be the case if you are at a constant velocity? This is why I am saying you would need some better source for velocity. I grant you that the times when a car is at a constant velocity may be few... Or it may be that when on cruise control on any flat road you may actually see zero or almost zero acceleration. OTOH, detecting the direction that a person turned with the accelerometer may be very useful in dead reckoning. --Tim Math. The acceleration to 50 kilometers per hour then staying at that speed produced an acceleration vector in a given direction. Until there are mathematically equal opposing deceleration(s), you have a known velocity and vector. It's all in the math :) Zero acceleration only means your current velocity and vector are constant. -david ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
He's not an idiot, he's just being bluntly vocal. I sense his frustration with not having the device and his concern that others will get to market first and stealing the 'community made' thunder and of course in financial speak, the market share. We all want toys and I'm sure OM is itching at the bit to get their product out. They however like every other company, will encounter times when things don't move as fast as they want them to. I would be amazed if OM wasn't eager to start selling their product just to show the world look at what we did! That doesn't decrease our drooling however and sometimes people get impatient and .. vibrant .. when goals slip. :) -david Paul Jimenez wrote: Sean please just ignore idiots like this. The rest of us know you're doing the best job you can and want to see the phone out ASAP just as much as we do. In summary: ignore the trolls and keep doing what you're doing. --pj ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Possibilities for commercial software?
Grey areas. Actually, I don't think it's grey at all. The decision maker, as far as how a work can be published and/or sold, is the copyright holder. Copyright is the _right_ to _copy_. If you're not the copyright holder, and you haven't been granted a right to copy by the copyright holder, then copying the work is an infringement. I don't see it as unethical for authors to choose to sell their works. If people don't like the price or the terms under which the works are offered, they shouldn't buy them. If enough people refuse to buy particular works because they dislike the terms, the owners of those works will suffer, and they'll be incented to change those terms to ones which are more attractive. I _do_ see it as unethical to copy works for the purposes of redistribution where you have no right to do so simply because you _can_: technical ability does not equal an ethical privilege. In specific terms, it's illegal republication and an infringement under the copyright laws of pretty much every country on the planet. Please remember: copyright is what protect GPL code, every bit as much as it protects the music on Sony-BMG CDs with bonus root-kits. If anyone wants to start inveighing against copyright law, they should keep in mind that they'll be arguing in favor of removing anyone's ability to redress misuses of GPL'd code in courts of law at the same time. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
- Forwarded message -- From: Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: community@lists.openmoko.org Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 19:13:49 +0100 Subject: Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer On Friday 26 January 2007 18:41:50 Tim Newsom wrote: yes, accelerometers measure acceleration. The first derivative of acceleration is velocity. Ok Steve. I grant you that the first derivative of acceleration is velocity... I don't think so. The first derivative of VELOCITY is acceleration (i.e. integrate acceleration to get velocity as acceleration is the rate of change of velocity) if my high school physics doesn't totally fail me right now. This also means that if acceleration is zero, velocity simply is constant. And in order to have velocity 0 you must have encountered some acceleration at some point. Wow, I can't believe I got that backwards, thanks for the correction. Kind of embarrassing considering I actually work on this stuff. However, it doesn't invalidate that you don't need any more information than the accelerometer and a starting point in order to track velocity and position. I'm going to go work on removing the foot I shoved so far into my mouth earlier. --Steve ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
Dnia piątek, 26 stycznia 2007 19:24, Marcus Bauer napisał: But if you can produce enough phones, than let all the early adopters have them, whether they are developers or not. In projects like this it is normal to write that phones in Phase 0/1 are target to developers. It is other way to say 'help us developing applications for target users because we lack developertime for it'. It simply creates lots of community drive and invaluable mouth-to-mouth propaganda. Unless you have severe restrictions in the numbers you can produce, just get as many people onto the phone as possible. Tell about the quirks and let the people decide if they want to go with it. But when they will say that Phase 1 is for everyone then it will match 'phone is ready for using/testing' rather then 'phone is ready to be test machine for your apps'. If users will get Phase 1 phones they will know that software is not ready yet because it has to be ready for Phase 2. The more people, the more feedback, the better the product in September. The more normal users, the more complains. PS signature is random -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Required Software
I've been working with Linux for such a long time and I'm not sure what that VPN client is. Truth is, though most popular network devices (Cisco, etc.) use VPN that Linux supports, it's Microsoft's VPN system that's most prevalent in the companies I've encountered. Does anyone know which VPN system works with MS? The choices for Linux I'm aware of are Open/FreeSWAN (IPSec), Cisco VPN 5000 client, PPTP VPN and OpenVPN (SSL-based). OpenVPN sounds like a decent choice for porting, as it runs in userspace, but afaik it's not compatible with MS (or any other VPN solution). However, it does run on Linux, *BSD, OS X and Windows (I've seen it ran on WinXP, not sure about Vista but it should do well). It's also pretty secure (uses SSL and can use HMAC too). I haven't looked at the code though so I can't say if it would be easy to port or not. Security is very important to roaming devices which have to go through public infrastructures like the Internet. :-D ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Unified message menue? pictures? Re: CallWave
Salve Jesse! On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Jesse Ross wrote: There was some mention on this list a while ago about an iPhone-style Visual Voicemail system. I wouldn't mention apple as refference for this idea - apple like to claim patents for solutions and like to sue... The following service could be a really good replacement, if your carrier supports it: Discovered via: http://www.therawfeed.com/2007/01/why-wait-for-iphone-visual-voicemail.html Looks like a Email inbox - so no need to name it I-hone-sytle... Some ongoing ideas -what about picutes with names? -what about having a SMS/Email/Voicemail=Unified message overview? -what about filter so seperate what's most important - instead of lifo (last in, first out) or fifo -voice meneu for the voice mailbox that the caller could leave an importance level and number of hours untill this messige have to be heard - different pictures or freames around the picture for the importance of the calls - from neo to neo some information could be transmitted during call, like relaxed, stressed, emergency, very sad/happy - sound analysing if the caller sounds normal or stressed... - picture of the wave form to separate the soundfiles better - voice recognition - reading is quicker than listen, it could be done externaly with commercial voice regongnition software - simple voice recognition could help to separate soundfiles better -automaticaly merge messages from the same caller when playing back -on/of switchable voice anouncment of time/date/person before playing back - quick play 1,5 speed - skipping messages and move it into the folder not so important yet marked as new... Just 3 minutes brainstorm what else would be nice with voicmail system, much much ore then just iphone... What more? :))) Don't get me wrong, I like your mail with this link, it is focusing on the core function of the phone: calling / call management ;) Cheers, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
Steven Milburn wrote: Wow, I can't believe I got that backwards, thanks for the correction. Kind of embarrassing considering I actually work on this stuff. However, it doesn't invalidate that you don't need any more information than the accelerometer and a starting point in order to track velocity and position. I'm going to go work on removing the foot I shoved so far into my mouth earlier. --Steve Hmm, I think if you always know your starting position, vector and velocity, then you will always know where you are. (100% accuracy implied). Acceleration is just an adjustment to your current vector and velocity. -david ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On 26/01/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See whether you get charged with something like theft (or infringement of copyright, which is tantamount to theft...) Infringement of copyright is very, very different to theft. If I shoplift some food from my local store, no one else can buy it. But when I copy software, no one loses it and another person gets it. There's no ethical problem. Um, wow. There's no ethical problem, perhaps, as long as the author's agreed that you can give away copies of his work. Yes, I agree. Otherwise, there's a very large ethical problem, which you seem to be inexplicably unaware of, somehow. No, I think we are discussing at cross purposes. If it's not the author's wish that the software be freely copy-able, which is certainly a desire the author's quite entitled to have I am less certain, and judging from most people's actions, I think you are in quite a minority with this belief. I mean, most iPods are full of unauthorised copies, even if some of their tracks are licensed from the iTunes Music Store. you simply have no right whatsoever to make (i.e. publish) copies of a copyrighted work and give them away. It's illegal. I'm astounded that breaking the law this way presents no ethical problem for you. It is illegal, but the law is not an authority on ethics. It is, at best, an attempt to achieve justice. You seem to be saying, If copying is forbidden, it must be wrong. But the legal system - at least in the US - rejects the idea that copyright infringement is theft. You are making an appeal to authority, but misrepresenting what that authority says. The idea that laws decide what is right or wrong is mistaken in general. To say that laws define justice or ethical conduct is turning things upside down. If you copy software (music, books, other media, etc.) without permission of the author, there most certainly _is_ an ethical problem: you're stealing the possibility of selling a properly paid-for copy from the author. I'm not sure you can steal a possibility. Or do you believe that it's unethical for an author to a) want to be paid for his work No, it is totally legitimate for them to want payment, and for us to pay them. and/or b) be able to set the terms under which his work is made available...? No, I am not against this. Afterall, without authors being able to set the terms under which their work is made available, we would have no free software :-) As always, thanks for taking the time to discuss issues of freedom and community with me. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Required Software
Alexandru Lazar writes: I've been working with Linux for such a long time and I'm not sure what that VPN client is. Truth is, though most popular network devices (Cisco, etc.) use VPN that Linux supports, it's Microsoft's VPN system that's most prevalent in the companies I've encountered. Does anyone know which VPN system works with MS? The choices for Linux I'm aware of are Open/FreeSWAN (IPSec), Cisco VPN 5000 client, PPTP VPN and OpenVPN (SSL-based). OpenVPN sounds like a decent choice for porting, as it runs in userspace, but afaik it's not compatible with MS (or any other VPN solution). However, it does run on Linux, *BSD, OS X and Windows (I've seen it ran on WinXP, not sure about Vista but it should do well). It's also pretty secure (uses SSL and can use HMAC too). I haven't looked at the code though so I can't say if it would be easy to port or not. It does require the tun/tap driver in the kernel. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: A cool device must have a powerfull e-book reader
FBReader have GTK+ and Qt interface. I made some modification to make it not look alien on Motorola EZX platform. EZX base on Qte with different look and feel. I think still need some work to make it smooth integrated to OpenMoko platform. ---Pesan Asli--- Dari:Marcin Juszkiewicz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tanggal:Fri, 26 Jan 2007 08:59:20 +0100 Ke:community@lists.openmoko.org Subyek: Re: A cool device must have a powerfull e-book reader Dnia czwartek, 25 stycznia 2007 07:06, Ketut P. Kumajaya napisa³: I have ported FBReader for Motorola E680i/A780 mobile phone and I am sure FBReader author only need a couple hour time to make it run on OpenMoko if he has access to OpenMoko device. FBReader is GTK application. OpenEmbedded has it in repository so I think that this will work out-of-box rather ;) -- JID: hrw-jabber.org OpenEmbedded developer/consultant This may seem a bit weird, but that's okay, because it is weird. -- Perl documentation ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Using Motorola E680i email client -- Using Motorola E680i email client___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
qemu and images.
First: I understand if all developers are busy right now... But after February 11... Can we get a release of a kernel and disc image for qemu, and the repository so we can update our image. Then we can explore the environment, test not only our software, but our ipkg packaging. Hack not only on application but try out kernel patches. Well, got the feel for it! High on my wish list! Side note final release 9/11 Isn't that a poorly chosen date... Whatever You do it will piss someone off. /LaH ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On 1/26/07 10:33 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The original point was: It doesn't make sense to equate copying digital information with stealing physical objects. No...? If you were to come into possession tomorrow of a copy of the yet-to-be-published seventh Harry Potter book, and you reposted it on the web, would _that_ be equivalent to stealing a physical object? Or would it be _worse_? Of course, if you have an agreement not to copy, it is wrong to break that agreement. But it is more wrong to not share with your friends. Most people have an intuitive understanding of this, and share unauthorised copies. So, if I've paid $500 for a media asset management package, it's more wrong for me to tell a friend, I'm sorry, you have to buy your own copy than it is for me to steal $500 from the author of the package, is that what you're saying? The agreement not to copy is based on copyright law, and this was originally created to benefit the public when they could not make their own copies. Now that we can make our own copies, a law prohibiting copying does not benefit us, so we break it. Most people have an intuitive understanding of this. What? How did copyright law _ever_ benefit the public when they could not make their own copies? Uncontrolled copying would have benefited the public by making more copies available, and more cheaply, but at a cost of bankruptng authors who would never get paid for illegitimate copies. Copyright law has _always_ been about protecting authors, i.e. creators, from the undesirable economics effects of uncontrolled copying of their work. Period. Your statements on copyright law are completely contrary to actual fact. How can we escape this moral dilemma, where we are being unethical with either choice? How is respecting an author's wishes regarding his own work unethical? To quote Inigo Montoya in The Princess Bride, You keep using that word, but I do not think it means what you think it does. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Harald Welte wrote: So I sincerely doubt that OpenMoko would ever actively support proprietary applications (e.g. by DRM hooks). We certainly cannot do anything against them, though. GPLv3? Paul ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Communications (was Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?)
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 13:40 -0500, Steven Milburn wrote: Sean: I think you missed the sarcastic hyperbole that Marcus was attempting to use. He was basically saying that calling you liars would be about as wrong as assuming since he didn't reply, he must not have read a post. It's a weak comparison, but no, he's not seriously calling you all liars. I could be dead wrong here of course, but that's how I read it. And with that, let me state that I think it important to use Figures of Speech as little as possible in these mailing list. For one thing, many of the members of these lists don't have English as their primary language (I know I'm one of those). Second, with so many people reading, it just increases the chances of miscommunication. If simple, concise sentences are still prone to misunderstanding, imagine how much things like sarcasm, irony, hyperbole, etc. could be misinterpreted. That said, things like analogies are great for explaining things. Though I must admit to not being able to understand an earlier analogy equating GSM and EVDO to modern trucks and steam locomotives (is one faster and capable of going in flexible directions but carrying smaller payloads while the other stronger, but slower and only go in fixed directions? :) ). -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 22:04 +0100, Ortwin Regel wrote: I like open source and stuff but some things, especially games, are closed in many cases. What are the possibilities for selling closed software for OpenMoko devices? Will there be a central online marketplace? What about DRM, is there a way to bind a program to a sync ID like it's usually done with PalmOS or to a device ID? (It should be possible to bind it to an SD card ID, right?) Any creative ideas how to solve the usual issues people have with stupid DRM systems etc. and still being able to get money for software development? There are as many possibilities for selling closed software on the OpenMoKo platform as there are on any other device; probably more, since the SDK doesn't cost a mint for a developer license. As for DRM, it is my honest opinion that it is entirely wrong-headed and causes more harm than good, and I would be very surprised if anyone implements it on this platform. I know that when (not if) I buy one, I will absolutely not allow any of that crap on my hardware. But I'm not averse to buying software, including games, especially if it's good. As for getting money for software development, people were doing that long before DRM was the gleam in a corporate monopolist's eye. Again, it is my honest opinion that one can make money selling software for the OpenMoKo, but it will probably require time, patience, and talent. and passion for your work. If your software is good, reasonably priced, and easily attainable, you should be able to make some money. Make it easier to buy the software from you than to pirate it and you should do alright. While I can't speak for the company, I'm sure there will be tons of on-line software clearinghouses for OpenMoKo software. If the company doesn't create one, someone else will, and if you're serious about selling software on the OpenMoKo platform, you'll have it listed on all of them. Personally, I'm really excited about this phone, even though it doesn't have everything my heart desires, and I've already been working on ideas for enhancements to existing (proposed) software as well as new software. However I'm not planning on trying to make any money off of it, and will be releasing it under a Free license. -KW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Glossary Re: Communications (was Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?)
Salve Richi! Good point! On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Richi Plana wrote: And with that, let me state that I think it important to use Figures of Speech as little as possible in these mailing list. For one thing, many of the members of these lists don't have English as their primary language (I know I'm one of those). Second, with so many people reading, it just increases the chances of miscommunication. To add: not usal abbreviations (write in bracket what it is standing for) E.g. when I had written FPGA (Fine Pitch BGA) it would have been clear that I meant FBGA the packed layout and not Field Programmable Gate Array GSM, GPRS, and GPS does have also abbreviations that would be unknows for most of us - a abbreviations glossary would help, just started http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Glossary increments are wellcome :) Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:18, Steven Milburn wrote: Wow, I can't believe I got that backwards, thanks for the correction. Kind of embarrassing considering I actually work on this stuff. However, it doesn't invalidate that you don't need any more information than the accelerometer and a starting point in order to track velocity and position. I'm going to go work on removing the foot I shoved so far into my mouth earlier. --Steve Ahh its been years since I did any of that in highschool, but I remembered it like you said it. Though now I think I should go back and review it. Lol. --Tim ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On 1/26/07 11:01 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it's not the author's wish that the software be freely copy-able, which is certainly a desire the author's quite entitled to have I am less certain, and judging from most people's actions, I think you are in quite a minority with this belief. I mean, most iPods are full of unauthorised copies, even if some of their tracks are licensed from the iTunes Music Store. Weren't you the one who was asking whether an error, commonly made enough, became correct? If everyone does it, it can _still_ be wrong. (People need to be very careful about their intuitive understandings. People frequently intuitively understand that they haven't had so much to drink that they shouldn't be driving. Typically, they're mistaken.) you simply have no right whatsoever to make (i.e. publish) copies of a copyrighted work and give them away. It's illegal. I'm astounded that breaking the law this way presents no ethical problem for you. It is illegal, but the law is not an authority on ethics. It is, at best, an attempt to achieve justice. You seem to be saying, If copying is forbidden, it must be wrong.' No, I'm saying, If copying goes against the author's expressed or implied wishes, it's wrong. If the copyright notice says, All rights reserved, then the author's reserved the rights, and it's unethical for you not to respect their wishes in that regard. But the legal system - at least in the US - rejects the idea that copyright infringement is theft. You are making an appeal to authority, but misrepresenting what that authority says. This is a quibble. If there's value in the work, i.e., if the infringement has an economic impact, then the infringement can be dealt with just as severely as the theft of a physical asset. The judicial route is different, but you're straining at gnats here. The idea that laws decide what is right or wrong is mistaken in general. To say that laws define justice or ethical conduct is turning things upside down. If you copy software (music, books, other media, etc.) without permission of the author, there most certainly _is_ an ethical problem: you're stealing the possibility of selling a properly paid-for copy from the author. I'm not sure you can steal a possibility. Well, if you can establish that, in the absence of a free but infringing copy, a person would have bought a copy sold in accordance with the author's wishes, you've stolen a sale. If that makes you happier. Again, you're quibbling. Okay, 'splaina me this: I travel a lot. I take a lot of photos when I travel. I actually sell photos here and there as stock for magazines, advertisements, etc. You'd seem to be of the opinion that the instant I post a reasonably high digital image someplace where you can get at it, if you happen to have a friend who likes my photo enough to want it in his magazine but doesn't want to pay me the asking price, it's more wrong for you not to share it with him than it is for him to weasel out of paying me. (Please correct me if I'm getting any of this wrong.) I'm not sure how the relative balance of more versus less wrong between you and your pal impacts my not getting paid for your friend's use of the photo which I took and which I own, by the way. I'm still out the fee. Or do you believe that it's unethical for an author to a) want to be paid for his work No, it is totally legitimate for them to want payment, and for us to pay them. So, you've been paying the artists for all those unauthorized copies of songs on your iPod, or buying the CDs on which the songs you've decided you like appear...? and/or b) be able to set the terms under which his work is made available...? No, I am not against this. Afterall, without authors being able to set the terms under which their work is made available, we would have no free software :-) Absent copyright law, you'd have no legal means to _keep_ it free. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On 1/26/07, Paul Wouters [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Harald Welte wrote: So I sincerely doubt that OpenMoko would ever actively support proprietary applications (e.g. by DRM hooks). We certainly cannot do anything against them, though. GPLv3? The GPLv3 does nothing to stop people from using DRM to protect proprietary software. The aim of DRM provisions in that license is to prevent people from using GPLv3 licensed software on a hardware device, and then using DRM to remove the user's freedoms to change the GPLDv3 software on the device. The most widely cited example of this is Tivo, which runs Linux, but uses DRM to prevent users from modifying the software that runs on their Tivos. It's a controversial clause, Linus Torvalds has said that he thinks hardware sellers should have the freedom to do this, as long as they comply with the GPLv2. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
He's not an idiot, he's just being bluntly vocal. Sorry, David, _I'm_ bluntly vocal, that was simply abusive. There's a difference, but I've never known either one to speed up a hardware platform project. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Required Software
On Fri, 2007-01-26 at 10:16 -0700, Richi Plana wrote: I've been working with Linux for such a long time and I'm not sure what that VPN client is. Truth is, though most popular network devices (Cisco, etc.) use VPN that Linux supports, it's Microsoft's VPN system that's most prevalent in the companies I've encountered. Does anyone know which VPN system works with MS? The choices for Linux I'm aware of are Open/FreeSWAN (IPSec), Cisco VPN 5000 client, PPTP VPN and OpenVPN (SSL-based). There's one I've heard of called PopTop that is supposed to work with Microsoft's PPTP VPN system. As for Cisco, there is the VPN client, but I don't like compiling their modules into my kernel. The one I use with the Ciscos at work is called vpnc ( http://www.unix-ag.uni-kl.de/~massar/vpnc/ ) and it works well, only requiring the tun/tap driver in the kernel. OpenVPN, while it's my favorite, is only compatible with itself. Security is very important to roaming devices which have to go through public infrastructures like the Internet. I agree, which is why my OpenMoKo will probably have vpnc and OpenVPN on it. -KW ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
I don't agree with his email tone either and neither will he speed up release of the product. His email was rude and abusive, yes. But him an idiot, no. -david David Schlesinger wrote: He's not an idiot, he's just being bluntly vocal. Sorry, David, _I'm_ bluntly vocal, that was simply abusive. There's a difference, but I've never known either one to speed up a hardware platform project. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On 1/26/07 10:47 AM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Your argument may be 'but every software for the phone really should be free - people will write it'. However, if someone hasn't come up with an absolutely free, modifiable mapping software, I should just be able to get the proprietary, closed version. It should be easier to do that than to look in the marketplace, conclude 'oh, this doesn't exist', and not get an OpenMoko phone because of it. You are expanding free to free to give up your freedom, which destroys the meaning of freedom with something like a Russell paradox. I'd say you're instead limiting free to mean free according to the doctrine of the Free Software Foundation. (Should I only be eating in restaurants which will give me copies of their recipes, for the asking, in the name of freedom...? It's gonna limit where I can go...) Why can't a person have the freedom to run proprietary software on _their_ open phone if they choose to? No one's requiring _you_ to, presumably, if you choose not to. Does the general community need folks like you to protect us from ourselves? (And you never answered my question about the ethics of Photoshop...) The amount of applications available for the phone is not the goal; the goal is to have a 100% free software phone. But that's at a base level, I don't recall any stated goal of making sure that everyone who ever gets their hands on one _keeps_ it that way! You don't feel people should be able to customize their phones other than in approved ways? (Slavery is Freedom...?) However, if I were trying to live off of it, it would be very hard to make it free and open source. Even in areas such as being a waiter where tips are expected and there is a known steady stream of customers giving tips, tips alone aren't sufficient. You can also charge for specific improvements, and for support, and many people have earned a living from free software in this way. Is that the only acceptable business model in your view? If someone comes up with a legitimately innovative piece of software, you seem to be saying that they'd be unethical to simply charge folks who are willing to pay the asking price binary-only copies of that software. I still don't see how trying to limit people's choices is more free than letting them make their own choices. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: qemu and images.
Side note final release 9/11 Isn't that a poorly chosen date... Whatever You do it will piss someone off. ...Dons flame retardent suit... We can't let terror rule our lives ...Flees stage left... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Possibilities for commercial software?
It may seem obvious to you that copyright law is about protecting authors... Only because it says so, right there in the US Constitution: Congress is granted the right to enact statutes To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. As I said, it's about securing for authors the exclusive right to control who gets to make copies of their works. The GNU Foundation benefits from, and relies on, copyright law every bit as much as the members of Metallica do. If it weren't for copyright law, someone who (ab)used GPL-licensed code and refused to release the sources for their modifications could do so with impunity. That case to which you refer reportedly took place in the Sixth Century. Not BC, admittedly, but I still think it's of extremely limited relevance here. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
Only because it says so, right there in the US Constitution: Congress is granted the right to enact statutes To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries. As I said, it's about securing for authors the exclusive right to control who gets to make copies of their works. You're missing the most important part... A limited monopoly is granted with the intent of providing an economic incentive for authors to create, and therefore to promote the progress of science and the useful arts. The entire history of western copyright law, right back to the statute of anne and even before to early grants of letters patent supports the position that a copyright monopoly is granted not so much in recognition of some natural property right in intellectual property, but rather as an economic incentive to creators to create works which serve to advance the collective body of human knowledge. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Unified Profile Management
Example. Instead of a calendar app just muting the phone when in a meeting (nice feature) it would activate a profile (maybe silent or meeting). Other apps could also use those profiles. For instance a GPS location aware app could know to use the same silent or meeting profile when you were at movies, church (or anywhere you wouldn't want your phone to ring). We have the opportunity to re-think 'profiles', they do have their limitations! Not only will this make for a MUCH better user experience (less redundant work). It will GREATLY speed up application development (no complex interface for what to do just a single simple dropdown what profile for this action/trigger). I'm thinking of something mostly transparent to the end-user, which has the same benefits you list.. I may finally make some time to get this off the drawing board this weekend :-) http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas/ConceptualFramework Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: planet.openmoko.org and openmoko-devel mailinglist
Le vendredi 26 janvier 2007 à 19:21 +0100, Harald Welte a écrit : Hi! It is my pleaasure to announce two new resources of the OpenMoko project: Thanks for taking the time to setup these two new resources. Rodolphe ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: CallWave
Salve Peter! On Fri, 26 Jan 2007, Peter A Trotter wrote: It's clear the technology is available to make this possible without any crude hacks. We need to make friends with the carriers in so many ways to make this project fly. Why? The Neo1973 could become the voice mailbox in most of the cases. In case of an area of no GSM service a second SIM at home or an asterisk call forwarding could help that one of your devices will catch the voicmail. So to have a friendly carrier would be nice, but much of solutions would be possible even without their support. Just another idea for the voicemailbox - the system could anounce (your friends) that you hasn't heard the last message and it allowed to replace it with a new message. Hello, Peter, her is the mailbox of Robert. I haven't heard your last voice message, press 1 when you want to replace this message, or just talk after the beep when you want to add more. beep Imagine you are abroad on a conference and you are in a hurry and your friends leve a many massages (5 minutes) and the last one is sorry, forget it, John hasn't time - we will meet us regulary in two weeks - bye.. Greetings rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
Greetings Rob and Sean, Thank you for welcoming me to the community! I have played catch up on the discussions going on here and it is very lively and interesting. I am now very excited about OpenMoko! I can well understand the excitement and desire to get ones hands on this phone and take the impatience of some as an expression of this. Though I can not help in the development of software, I might be helpful in coming up with some ideas of how to present this phone to the average user and get ideas of things they would like to see on their phone. Maybe get them excited about having one get them over sticker shock when they see the advantage of having a phone that you can keep and upgrade and have it your way. I imagine by now, the development team has ideas on this, but I would like to do my bit. Just a thought. Recently I convinced a friend to get a prepaid cell phone and hang it around her neck when she went out in case she needed to call for help. This allowed her greater freedom to leave home and sure was less expensive than some other advertised devices. I thought of this with the design of the Moko which seems to have a nice place to put a lanyard. There may be a nice app could be designed around this with a call for help button...and with GPS already there...just in case. Best Regards, mary ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
I'm sorry to stick my nose into this possible bees-nest. But I feel I have to object a little here. On 1/26/07, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26/01/07, Richard Boehme [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The point I bring from this is that if, for instance, TomTom has mapping software that I want to use, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops to get it. I should just be able to go into the market place, go to 'Non-Free Software', and buy the TomTom app. Your argument may be 'but every software for the phone really should be free - people will write it'. However, if someone hasn't come up with an absolutely free, modifiable mapping software, I should just be able to get the proprietary, closed version. It should be easier to do that than to look in the marketplace, conclude 'oh, this doesn't exist', and not get an OpenMoko phone because of it. You are expanding free to free to give up your freedom, which destroys the meaning of freedom with something like a Russell paradox. Freedom also means freedom to choose what software I want to run. If I want to run an OpenMoko version of the closed source program 'TomTom' for my navigation, then who are you to decide that I can't? Sure, it would be nice if every piece of software available for the OM was open sourced (under whatever licence), but we all know that there will be software that will not be opened (TomTom could be one of them). Not every person likes to be _restricted_ to only GPL-licenced software. I want to have the freedom to choose to install closed-source software as well as open sourced software, and if I have to pay for that, then that would be just fine. If you feel allowing proprietary, closed software in hurts the 'free your phone' spirit, and the market place is closed to them, it only hurts the amount of applications available for the phone. The amount of applications available for the phone is not the goal; the goal is to have a 100% free software phone. No, the goal is to have a usable phone. A phone that works, with software that people want and need. That the phone's completely free is also great, but please leave ME the freedom to choose to add closed-source to the stack too. You don't have to, but it's not up to you to say that I can't choose that. Freedom remember? (I just don't allow any DRM system to live on my machines, that is where I draw the line :)) I understand your line of reasoning, I just happen to disagree with you. I run Ubuntu here, on my home computer. But I do have Opera installed (not open-source, but still a great application), and I do have some closed sourced games installed (because there aren't a whole lot of good open source games that actually interest me). Just to name a few apps that I use regularly. -- Marcel ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Developers phone also fit for early adopters?
On Jan 26, 2007, at 11:07 PM, Sean Moss-Pultz wrote: Listen, there's nobody on this list that wishes we'd had this phone out in January more than I. But delays happen. You can't seriously be calling us liars now are you? Haven been working on a wireless device my self for the past few months, I totally understand where Sean is coming from. We have to understand unlike software, its not easy to fix things once they are released into the market. The cost of recalls etc are not cheap. I think Sean is totally justified if he wants to push the date. I understand that developers are eager for this phone, hell even I am dying to get my hands on one of them. But I would not like Sean to be pressured for an early release and release a non tested, semi complete phone. This would hurt the OpenMoko more than a delayed release. Lets keep politics and software naming outside the list. This is the single largest turn off when people start huge threads talking about calling it Linux or GNU/Linux. This is a OpenMoko mailing list. Software is a tool, not a religion. :) Regards Warren Noronha Blog: http://www.hyperionreactor.net Phone: +1-415-620-8700 Phone: +91-989-280-6204 ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Just for walkers... Re: Yes it will have vibra alarm Re: idea for Neo 2nd generation: Accelerometer
ha ha, I did mean to send it to the list... thanks! On 1/26/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Salve Jeff! Was it your intention to answer me private and not to the list, too? Don't get me to seriously, my English is not perfect, so I'm not good in making jokes in English :)) your english was good enough for me to get the joke, I was just trying to take it a little further(maybe too far) :-) no worries On 1/25/07, Robert Michel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: and the vibra allows to give some feedback to the user by using the touchscreen and diffrent vibra would help to use it for navigation while it is in the pocket like: w ww wwr wrr (turn right) wrr wrr wrrr wrrr wrrr wrrr (turn left) w (turn back) and wr wr wr wr wr wr wr wr wr means you're driving into a river/off a cliff!! seriously though, it'd have to be a heck of a motor for me to feel it while driving, but I really like the concept... it's hard to hear instructions with the top down on the freeway Let me allow to kidding you - you are in the US, right? yeah, it's the jeep thing that gives it away, huh? Outside of the US people could thing to use a navigation even without a car, just while walking... SCNR - real sorry... :) don't be sorry... I'd rather know when I make a fool of myself, so that I can stop, or at least learn from it... and I'd only kind of thought about using it for walking... you'd have to make sure wherever you put it wasn't in loose clothes, and most of the time when I'm walking I either have enough time to wander and take in everything as well as find where I'm going... or I know right where I'm going so it wouldn't matter (if you've always got a gps, how are you supposed to get lost and find cool things?) the other thing I was thinking of, is what about mounting this to the handlebars of my bike... if the vibration motor was strong enough, I could navigate longer courses without taking my eyes off the road Walking cross a city with a navigation - I know somebody who loves to hold it in his hand to try to attrack laydies but I would prefer to have it hidden in my pocket. maybe colored arrows to tell you which way to turn (green=right red=left intensity tells you how far to go) that way you can glance to see the color nono, it was just additional use, not the general way of navigaion... The funny thing of AGPS compard than with normal GPS receiver, it will working even in your pocket - that was my intention to stress with to use it for navigation while it is in the pocket or it should work inside malls too, I can't tell you how many time's I've gotten lost in even smaller ones... and a busy crowded mall isn't my idea of a place to get lost in(if you live in a country without these monstrosities, count your blessings) if we could map out the stores, or at least their entrances, I could get in, get my stuff and get out so much faster. also, for the devs, how is the screen in the sun? does it fade much? I hope not to much... Cheers, rob Thanks for the tip, I'm forwarding it on to everyone now! -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Free Your Phone
On 1/24/07, Renaissance Man [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He said what? Christ, give me Richard Stallman any day. Renaissance Man On 24 Jan 2007, at 1:03 am, Marcus Bauer wrote: Linus Torvalds once jokingly said: I am your god. Here's my understanding of this comment, to clear things up: the story is that he was in front of a really enthusiastic crowd, and the comment was a joke about the way the crowd was looking up to him. Totally not an arrogant statement. Even if I don't agree with every one of his other opinions, I still think it was a pretty funny comment, and not inappropriate at all in the context. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
