Phone enhancements
Forget the camera. Forget the WiFi. What *I* want is a breathalizer (alcohol sensor) embedded with the microphone. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Reactions From Other People to News of OpenMoko
On 1/27/07 7:12 AM, Mary Stovel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a thought. Recently I convinced a friend to get a prepaid cell phone and hang it around her neck when she went out in case she needed to call for help. This allowed her greater freedom to leave home and sure was less expensive than some other advertised devices. I thought of this with the design of the Moko which seems to have a nice place to put a lanyard. Which will come in the box ;-) -Sean ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 24/01/07, Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And besides, the BSDL predates the GPLv1 by a decade. This is simply untrue. I have done some research on this: http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22at%26t+source+license%22+BSD In 1989 the Networking Tape 1 was released; this was the first time that BSD UNIX code was available to anyone without a very expensive proprietary license from ATT. An ATT source license in 1988 could cost as much as $100,000, making it prohibitive for many would-be users of BSD. And many would argue (I certainly do, but obviously not the FSF) that the BSDL is much more free than the GPL. The freedom to become less free is a paradox. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-copyleft.html explains why copyleft licenses like the GPL are better than permissive free software licenses like the revised BSD license. -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OMG wiki license
On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:21 +0100, Harald Welte wrote: On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:29:47AM -0500, Richard Franks wrote: then there is no copyright issue as the contributors have implicitly put their words into the public domain? This is not true and for sure in the US, where the instant someone contributes, their contribution is governed under copyright. Public domain only exists in the UK/US common law countries. I for example, as a German citizan, cannot put something into the public domain - unless my copyrigt expires some decades after my death. Yes, this is a murky area. I agree with Harold. However, public domain does not apply to this. So, yes, I firmly believe it is problematic to copy that old content into the new official wiki. Yes, this is true. And, we need to correct this somehow. I will outline below. Basically, the problem with the current temp wiki is that there is no license declaration, which means the content is controlled by copyright of each author. To make it more problematic, there is no required login, so it is very difficult to track these authors down. Thus, there are a few possibilities, that we can weigh in on. 1.) restart the wiki using GFDL 1.2 license and delete the current content. Then, the authors who created the previous content can login and add this content that they created to the wiki (which can be compared via diffs). And, all content from that point forward would be licensed under GFDL 1.2, as long as that statement is on every single page. 2.) Make a relicense agreement which would require every single person who has contributed to sign (which is also very unlikely because we don't have the full capability to match nonlogins (only IPs are recorded) with names. Thus, this type of agreement would be nearly impossible. I think the best step is #1, with a complete deletion of the old content on the wiki and the authors who have contributed can go back through the wiki and re-add the content that they added that is an original contribution and not a derivative of an old work. The most important part is that there needs to be a license declaration for the GNU FDL 1.2 license on every page. What do you all think about this? Yes, this sucks, but it is better to set a time to do this and just do it. There is another option suggested of authors, when the time to move over content to the official wiki comes, then authors move their own contributions over. This is problematic because authors have made derivatives of others works and certain contributions are dependent on others. However, there haven't been than many additive contributions, so I still think #1 above is the best option. Harold and others, what do you think? At least that way, not all is lost ;( If you all agree, lets set a time, say SAT 27th, 11:59 PM PST to delete and note the license on the wiki pages to restart this. I can do the honors. Jon The official wiki will, in the spirit of Wikipedia (and for compatibility) be using GFDL 1.2. Yes, then I think the temp wiki should use GFDL 1.2 license as well so content can move over to the new one. Jon Cheers, -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
Twas brillig at 11:23:52 27.01.2007 UTC+00 when Dave Crossland did gyre and gimble: DC The freedom to become less free is a paradox. DC http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-copyleft.html explains why DC copyleft licenses like the GPL are better than permissive free DC software licenses like the revised BSD license. Please don't think your opponents are ignoramus. Nearly everyone here knows very well both the position of BSD people, and essences of GNU homilies. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
lightwight good XHTML webbrowser? Re: wap browser? any better one than wApua?
Salve Jose! Jose Manrique Lopez de la Fuente schrieb am Samstag, den 27. Januar 2007 um 03:43h: WAP 2.0 supports XHTML-Basic and XHTML-Mobile Profile, so use a XHTML browser instead... Old WML is dead! Hmm, e.G. the German Railway http://wap.bahn.de is still using wml 1.0 so what will help me an XHTML browser to use this wappage? XHTML browser wouldn't help - it would be nice that OpenMoko helps to use even Old (dead) WML. Ok the railway have also page with XHTML as well: http://mobile.bahn.de/ With apt-cache search I have only found Amaya this is a XHTML webbrowser and editor - needs several libs and 21,6 MB additional space... And I haven't found the config to disable editing pages, and maby because of WYSIWYG it has some graphicaly errors... And which XHTML browser is lightwight and good to use with OpenMoko/Neo1973? When I look into the source - I would like to see a client/server splitted XHTML browser that on a server runs the backand and only the frontend on the Neo. - pictures and same pages could be cached on the Neo - the transmission beween back-front end compressed - and long pages would be transmitted in parts (on demand) Some average using profile of XHTML e.G. for Germany - bahn.de (railway) - tagesschau.de (news) could fill the cache automaticaly when having a cheap/free internet connection Ah and saving pages as an unvariable document, the chance to beam (via Bluetooth) and printing would be something that not every phones support. At last - train/news/weather informations - our Neo1973 could become a wireless mailbox for other users, where they could download the train/news/weather informations that I had downloaded. Maybe this could create trouble with lawers, let us call this proxy and let us select some pages to publish with our proxy. So a smart XHTML editor would become interesting, as well, e.G. for changing the front page or adding some additional informations. The Bluetooth devicename could have up to 255 chars? OpenMailbox-with-News-Wether-information-free-to-login Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
addon sleeves / casings - wish
According to this image: http://www.areamobile.de/images/handies/FIC/Neo1973/200611081450Neo1973_Rot-Gruen.jpg, the Neo1973's casing is supposed to have two pairs of grooves on each side. Are these grooves going to be deep enough to make it possible to firmly attach add-ons to the back side of the phone ? Since many tinkerers will probably want to add hardware like powered USB hubs and other hardware to the phone, some sort of clip-on system might be useful. If the grooves are there for some other purpose - would it still be possible to add such a feature to the casing ? I know it's late, but perhaps, just perhaps, the moulds could still be modified, just before the first phones are produced... On a related note - will it be possible to buy the telephone (addon) casings alone, without any electronics ? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: addon sleeves / casings - wish
On Saturday 27 January 2007 12:35:30 polz wrote: I know it's late, but perhaps, just perhaps, the moulds could still be modified, just before the first phones are produced... On a related note - will it be possible to buy the telephone (addon) casings alone, without any electronics ? I would support both requests firmly. A way to attach extensions to Neo would be really helpful for anyone trying to add some hardware feature... Perhaps one could even go as far as offering an oversized replacement shell with space to do it internally? pgpiIJbpRPvGU.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
BSD people appreciate software companies like Apple coming along, changing the code, and releasing *non-free*. On 1/27/07, Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Twas brillig at 11:23:52 27.01.2007 UTC+00 when Dave Crossland did gyre and gimble: DC The freedom to become less free is a paradox. DC http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-copyleft.html explains why DC copyleft licenses like the GPL are better than permissive free DC software licenses like the revised BSD license. Please don't think your opponents are ignoramus. Nearly everyone here knows very well both the position of BSD people, and essences of GNU homilies. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 27/01/07, Gabriel Ambuehl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday 27 January 2007 12:23:52 Dave Crossland wrote: And besides, the BSDL predates the GPLv1 by a decade. This is simply untrue. I have done some research on this: http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22at%26t+source+license%22+BSD In 1989 the Networking Tape 1 was released; this was the first time that BSD UNIX code was available to anyone without a very expensive proprietary license from ATT. That does in no way proof me wrong. Before that, there was always some ATT code in BSD, so it wasn't completely BSDL and couldnt not be used without permission from ATT. THat doesn't say the BSDL didnt exist. I genuinely, sincerely would appreciate it if you found some reference for this, other than you saying it. Because the reference I just stated contradicts you: In June 1989 the Berkeley group took just this approach, releasing the TCP/IP code and a set of supporting utilities that had been written without any ATT code as 'Networking Release 1.' 'Networking Release 1 came with generous licensing terms. This was the first example of what would later be called a BSD-style license. http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22came+with+generous+licensing+terms%22 -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Free Your Phone
Here's my understanding of this comment, to clear things up: the story is that he was in front of a really enthusiastic crowd, and the comment was a joke about the way the crowd was looking up to him. Totally not an arrogant statement. Even if I don't agree with every one of his other opinions, I still think it was a pretty funny comment, and not inappropriate at all in the context. Linus Torvalds is possibly the least arrogant person I've ever encountered. People say _I'm_ arrogant, but I know better than that. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
This is simply untrue. The fact is, as originally stated, that the BSD preceded the GPL (by two years or ten) and that free or open source software certainly existed well before the FSF did. I received system distributions for DECsystem-10s in the 70s, entirely in source form... The freedom to become less free is a paradox. Now, _this_ is simply untrue. I thought I'd let it slide the first time, but it seems to be becoming a slogan with you, so allow me to correct your misapprehensions. A trivial counter-example, familiar to any law student who's gotten past his first couple of days of contract law: As an adult, you are _free_ to sign any (presumably valid) contract you choose to. Once you've signed, however, you've abandoned the freedom to take or leave the conditions placed upon you by that contract. So, where's the paradox, Mr. Crossland? (You've let us know you're not a developer; it's becoming clear you have no greater level of understanding of legal issues.) ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 3:30:45 pm 2007-01-27 David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is simply untrue. The fact is, as originally stated, that the BSD preceded the GPL (by two years or ten) http://www.free-soft.org/gpl_history/ I think they were at most at the same time not one preceded the other. GPLv2 was year 1991 and from what I can read the GPLv1 was first mentioned in 1988. So unless we are talking about a specific version which from my reading we are not. and that free or open source software certainly existed well before the FSF did. I received system distributions for DECsystem-10s in the 70s, entirely in source form... Are wa talking about you having this system at home or was this at your workplace/university where the university/work probably payed a license fee to get this similar to what todays commercial products have. If my history isn't wrong if you bought a license from a company for the software many companies included the source code(this is pre-m$) for no charge or a bit extra. The freedom to become less free is a paradox. Now, _this_ is simply untrue. I thought I'd let it slide the first time, but it seems to be becoming a slogan with you, so allow me to correct your misapprehensions. A trivial counter-example, familiar to any law student who's gotten past his first couple of days of contract law: As an adult, you are _free_ to sign any (presumably valid) contract you choose to. Once you've signed, however, you've abandoned the freedom to take or leave the conditions placed upon you by that contract. So, where's the paradox, Mr. Crossland? (You've let us know you're not a developer; it's becoming clear you have no greater level of understanding of legal issues.) I won't comment on this as IANAL. -- Andraž ruskie Levstik Source Mage GNU/Linux Games grimoire guru Geek/Hacker/Tinker Hacker FAQ: http://www.plethora.net/%7eseebs/faqs/hacker.html Be sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth. Key id = F4C1F89C Key fingerprint = 6FF2 8F20 4C9D DB36 B5B6 F134 884D 72CC F4C1 F89C ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/27/07 3:33 AM, Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please don't think your opponents are ignoramus. Nearly everyone here knows very well both the position of BSD people, and essences of GNU homilies. Personally, I'd be a lot more impressed if Mr. Crossland were able to articulate any of these viewpoints in his own words, rather than repeatedly feeding us pointers to canned propaganda. The page Mr. Crossland cites actually offers no particular rationale as to why GPL is better than BSD, other than dark mutterings about the possibility of someone's using code in non-free software. Is that not a freedom one can legitimately choose to allow to others, Mr. Crossland? Or is the freedom described by the FSF the only allowable kind...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/27/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BSD people appreciate software companies like Apple coming along, changing the code, and releasing *non-free*. That is a freedom which the BSD license allows. Yes it is. But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to take it away. You're not against _freedom_, are you? No, silly. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
Twas brillig at 15:10:43 27.01.2007 UTC+00 when Declan Naughton did gyre and gimble: DN But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make DN sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to DN take it away. Well, it's your problem, not others one. -- JID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OMG wiki license
On 1/27/07 3:26 AM, Jon Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:21 +0100, Harald Welte wrote: On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:29:47AM -0500, Richard Franks wrote: then there is no copyright issue as the contributors have implicitly put their words into the public domain? This is not true and for sure in the US, where the instant someone contributes, their contribution is governed under copyright. Correct. You can't implicitly put anything into the public domain under US copyright law: you'd have to make a specific and concrete declaration to do so, or (more usually) simply wait for the copyright on it to expire... If you're interesting in folding all the Wiki content under the FDL, and you want to avoid running afoul of potential copyright entanglements, you're going to have to start over from scratch, I believe. You're also going to need to have each participant explicitly agree (probably when their account is created) to get explicit agreement that they abandon any interests they hold in any content they create on the site and assign copyright to such content to The OpenMoko Project or whatever. You might well also want a statement to the effect that any content they submit must not be derivative of material held under copyright elsewhere and be free of other encumbrances, etc., etc... This could get complicated, see...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/27/07, Mikhail Gusarov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Twas brillig at 15:10:43 27.01.2007 UTC+00 when Declan Naughton did gyre and gimble: DN But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make DN sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to DN take it away. Well, it's your problem, not others one. My opinion, actually, and I'd claim nothing more, just hope that you would too. Doesn't look like it, but. Which is your problem, not mine. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On Saturday 27 January 2007 16:10:43 Declan Naughton wrote: But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to take it away. If others take code under the BSDL and put it into a closed system, freedom doesn't go away at all. It just doesn't necessarily extend any further. pgpi72MIs80rQ.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On Saturday 27 January 2007 15:58:46 Andraž 'ruskie' Levstik wrote: (You've let us know you're not a developer; it's becoming clear you have no greater level of understanding of legal issues.) I won't comment on this as IANAL. This is entirely right (albeit IANAL either). For example, if you take on a job, you surrender freedom of movement for parts of the day, too, in exchange for something you want, usually mostly your salary. There are certain bounds to this, and for good reasons btw as in most countries it's not legal to enter into contracts (actually you might be allowed to enter into one, but courts would refuse to hold it up) that would make you a de facto slave of the other party but outside this, you're free to give up freedoms whenever you like. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On 26 Jan 2007, at 8:34 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: I'd say you're instead limiting free to mean free according to the doctrine of the Free Software Foundation. (Should I only be eating in restaurants which will give me copies of their recipes, for the asking, in the name of freedom...? It's gonna limit where I can go...) Why can't a person have the freedom to run proprietary software on _their_ open phone if they choose to? No one's requiring _you_ to, presumably, if you choose not to. Does the general community need folks like you to protect us from ourselves? (And you never answered my question about the ethics of Photoshop...) It's not a matter of should. A person DOES have the freedom to run proprietary software on their open phone if they choose, but that freedom, if acted on, has consequences (called an externality in economics). And that consequence is that the more people who do it the more reliant on non-free software free software becomes, and the more reliant free software is on un-free software the less free the whole system becomes: meaning, when you look at the whole picture, users will have less freedom to use software, and the systems run by that software, in the way they want. Renaissance Man ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion
If I am free to beat someone up that does not mean the sum total of freedom for society is increased. Sorry, pointlessness alert. There's _never_ a freedom to beat someone up, and--outside of the very limited contexts of, e.g., law enforcement or military activities--no one can grant one, so let's put this straw man to rest right away. Beating someone up is assault and battery, which are either misdemeanors or felonies, depending on the degree of severity, and you're never free to do either one. Granting the freedom to extend a piece of code in whatever ways one's ingenuity allows, and do what one likes with those changes, doesn't take anything away from the original situation. If Apple takes BSD code and makes it do interesting things it couldn't before, you no worse off than you were before they did so, whether or not they share the source code for those changes with you. Who do you imagine is getting beaten up? How are you less free as a result? If Apple's changes--and unwillingness to share--offend you, don't buy anything from 'em. If others don't mind, do you feel that you know better and should be able to restrict _their_ freedom to buy Apple's products...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Phone enhancements
I would like a blender and a toaster (for small toast... I realize that including a full size toaster would make the phone a lot less portable.) If the phone could also work as an electric razor and nose hair trimmer, that would be great too. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion
If others take code under the BSDL and put it into a closed system, freedom doesn't go away at all. It just doesn't necessarily extend any further. It has gone away for the users of that system. ...who are, of course, being forced to use said system at gunpoint. Really, what's it to you? If people want to use a closed system, for whatever reasons, why do you feel you need to stand in their way, or re-educate them? I asked you some time ago--and never got a response--whether you wanted to take the stance that I was unethical for using Photoshop and Illustrator (or, maybe, whether Adobe was unethical for selling them to me). Come up with any sort of answer yet? It seems to be pretty much the same issue. Why is your particular (and more restricted) version of freedom the only acceptable one? (See if you can come up with a more coherent example than the freedom to beat people up, okay?) What's he to Hecubah, or Hecubah to him, that he should weep thus for her?--Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
On 1/27/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: because capitalists organisations involve authoritative decision making and the person in authority, paying my wage, tells me I have to be there. Yawn. So quit. Move to the people's republic of your choice and live in proletarian harmony, giving according to your means and receiving according to your needs. I hear North Korea's nice if you like that sort of thing, and aren't too married to the eating thing. Bring a sweater, it's cold this time of year. Yeah, and maybe the people who fought for an America free from Britian should've just gotten on a boat or swam elsewhere. You're probably the oldest person here, or among the oldest people here, but your childishness is just amazing. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
Are you sure you should be on a children's mailing list somewhere? Renaissance Man On 27 Jan 2007, at 4:16 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: Yawn. So quit. Move to the people's republic of your choice and live in proletarian harmony, giving according to your means and receiving according to your needs. I hear North Korea's nice if you like that sort of thing, and aren't too married to the eating thing. Bring a sweater, it's cold this time of year. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
On Saturday 27 January 2007 17:23:14 Renaissance Man wrote: It's not a matter of should. A person DOES have the freedom to run proprietary software on their open phone if they choose, but that freedom, if acted on, has consequences (called an externality in economics). No that's not what is generally called an externality. It would only have externalities (which BTW can be be good or bad, which is often overlooked) if it had effects on third parties which is probably not the case as weird philosophical arguments such as this is morally bad so it affects me generally aren't allowed. And that consequence is that the more people who do it the more reliant on non-free software free software becomes, and the more reliant free software is on un-free software the less free the whole system becomes: meaning, when you look at the whole picture, users will have less freedom to use software, and the systems run by that software, in the way they want. That is not following from people using non free software on a system. If I chose to use TomTom on my Neo, nothing gets any less free than it was before. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
h.264 format is now open?
http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/01/27/0755234.shtml It looks like the MP4 (or M4V) video format is now no longer covered by patents, if I am readig this correctly (and if the article is accurate.) Due to it being a high-resolution phone, and assuming that we'll watch video on it anyway, there should be efforts towards implementing this! -- be seeing you. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: PLEASE KEEP DISCUSSION ON TOPIC!!!
On 1/27/07, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That way we can keep this list focused on what it was set out to do. Exchange ideas for the OpenMoko platform. It's a community list - I would think that discussing values and such would be ontopic. Perhaps we could really do with an openmoko-dev or -ideas list. That said, an amount recent discussion has really been too far out, and I don't even know how it ties back in. I'll try and do the replying to original author thing so. -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
Well you managed to miss the point of my *metaphor* (not straw man), even though I spelt it out for you: The point is real freedom is measured on a whole picture basis, not on an individual basis. How are you less free as a result? Apple's iPhone, for instance, contains open source software, but because it's totally reliant on un-free software I can't add VoIP via WiFi to it for instance, effectively nullifying the freedom aspect of the free software component for its users. All the effort that went into that free software to make it free is nullified for me as a user and Apple (a large purveyor or largely un-free software) gets a leg up (boosting it's ability to compete against free software) that it wouldn't have had if that software had been licenced under the GPL, effectively making the society I live in less free. Renaissance Man On 27 Jan 2007, at 4:15 pm, David Schlesinger wrote: If I am free to beat someone up that does not mean the sum total of freedom for society is increased. Sorry, pointlessness alert. There's _never_ a freedom to beat someone up, and--outside of the very limited contexts of, e.g., law enforcement or military activities--no one can grant one, so let's put this straw man to rest right away. Beating someone up is assault and battery, which are either misdemeanors or felonies, depending on the degree of severity, and you're never free to do either one. Granting the freedom to extend a piece of code in whatever ways one's ingenuity allows, and do what one likes with those changes, doesn't take anything away from the original situation. If Apple takes BSD code and makes it do interesting things it couldn't before, you no worse off than you were before they did so, whether or not they share the source code for those changes with you. Who do you imagine is getting beaten up? How are you less free as a result? If Apple's changes--and unwillingness to share--offend you, don't buy anything from 'em. If others don't mind, do you feel that you know better and should be able to restrict _their_ freedom to buy Apple's products...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OMG wiki license
I think this is all a bit overkill. I don't see any license other than the description this mailing list is for open discussion and feedback, for this mailing list.. yet these potentially copyrightable messages are mirrored by openmoko.com, gmane, etc. Why isn't everyone being sued? In our case, the source was either: a) An intentional email sent without copyright notice, to a membership-unknown public mailing list, with full knowledge that it would be stored and made freely available. b) An intentional edit made to a freely accessible public wiki. I don't see a legal case being made out of this. However, if a legal case could be made then linuxtogo are already liable as they have already published copyrighted material? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyrights#Using_copyrighted_work_from_others Note that copyright law governs the creative expression of ideas, not the ideas or information themselves. Therefore, it is legal to read an encyclopedia article or other work, reformulate the concepts in your own words, and submit it to Wikipedia. However, it would still be unethical (but not illegal) to do so without citing the original as a reference. Why don't we take a snapshot of the current wiki, and reword the content into a new licensed wiki? It's less work than doing everything all over again, we lose no contributions, and it's an opportunity to reorganise a bit. I'll volunteer to do a chunk of that work if we go that route. Richard On 1/27/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/27/07 3:26 AM, Jon Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:21 +0100, Harald Welte wrote: On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:29:47AM -0500, Richard Franks wrote: then there is no copyright issue as the contributors have implicitly put their words into the public domain? This is not true and for sure in the US, where the instant someone contributes, their contribution is governed under copyright. Correct. You can't implicitly put anything into the public domain under US copyright law: you'd have to make a specific and concrete declaration to do so, or (more usually) simply wait for the copyright on it to expire... If you're interesting in folding all the Wiki content under the FDL, and you want to avoid running afoul of potential copyright entanglements, you're going to have to start over from scratch, I believe. You're also going to need to have each participant explicitly agree (probably when their account is created) to get explicit agreement that they abandon any interests they hold in any content they create on the site and assign copyright to such content to The OpenMoko Project or whatever. You might well also want a statement to the effect that any content they submit must not be derivative of material held under copyright elsewhere and be free of other encumbrances, etc., etc... This could get complicated, see...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: h.264 format is now open?
la, 2007-01-27 kello 11:05 -0600, el jefe delito kirjoitti: It looks like the MP4 (or M4V) video format is now no longer covered by patents, if I am readig this correctly (and if the article is accurate.) Well, at least probably not that particular patent (set?). And it's spesifically h.264 by the way. Due to it being a high-resolution phone, and assuming that we'll watch video on it anyway, there should be efforts towards implementing this! This is not probably called for at this point, Neo1973 pretty certainly does _not_ have enough horsepower to play back h.264. (I'm hoping to play _some_ kind of video back on the device myself, but experimenting if that'll be feasible for any kind of non-horrible quality will have to wait till release, unless somebody in the inner circle does some test on their *cough* copious spare time. ;) Anyway, ffmpeg has a h.264 decoder and the x264 project can encode it, so the copyright-wise free code is out there already, for the future. -- Mikko Rauhala - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - URL:http://www.iki.fi/mjr/ Transhumanist - WTA member - URL:http://www.transhumanism.org/ Singularitarian - SIAI supporter - URL:http://www.singinst.org/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Possibilities for commercial software?
Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Saturday 27 January 2007 17:23:14 Renaissance Man wrote: It's not a matter of should. A person DOES have the freedom to run proprietary software on their open phone if they choose, but that freedom, if acted on, has consequences (called an externality in economics). And that consequence is that the more people who do it the more reliant on non-free software free software becomes, and the more reliant free software is on un-free software the less free the whole system becomes: meaning, when you look at the whole picture, That is not following from people using non free software on a system. If I chose to use TomTom on my Neo, nothing gets any less free than it was before. And if people who would not have bought the phone without tomtom - or an equivalent free app, now buy it as they can install tomtom on it, the market as a whole gets more free, compared to the other phone they may have bought that runs some flavour of windows or symbian, or ... And that person now can recommends it to their friends, because it does what they want and doesn't crash, when they would not have done, and the platform grows. And now the platform is larger, and may attract more people to develop a free tomtom clone. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion
How are you less free as a result? Apple's iPhone, for instance, contains open source software, but because it's totally reliant on un-free software I can't add VoIP via WiFi to it for instance, effectively nullifying the freedom aspect of the free software component for its users. All the effort that went into that free software to make it free is nullified for me as a user and Apple (a large purveyor or largely un-free software) gets a leg up (boosting it's ability to compete against free software) that it wouldn't have had if that software had been licenced under the GPL, effectively making the society I live in less free. This is nonsense, I'm afraid. All the effort that went into that free software to make it free (which doesn't seem quite sensible, but I think I get what you're attempting to communicate) is entirely unaltered: it's there in precisely the state it was when both you and Apple found it. Apple, by dint of hard work and creative effort (not to mention significant expenditure of time and resources) made it do other things which it could not before. You, however, want to have your cake and eat it, too. You seem to feel that because someone gave both you and Apple what amounts to a gift, that Apple, by virtue of having done something with that gift throught their own initiative, now owes _you_ a gift. If you insist on being able to add VoIP to your phone, don't get an iPhone, it's as simple as that. Apple invested in being able to compete. They should be able to realize a return on that investment; if they can't, they won't make the investment in the first place. If you want to make a similar investment in the same source code that Apple began with, there's nothing stopping you except your own energy and abilities. (Note that Apple invested well beyond the level of simply writing software: they developed hardware on which to run the software as well, and you have zero rights in that hardware in any case.) Apple's use of free software to create a closed device doesn't make society in general a bit less free. It doesn't restrict anyone's options beyond what they were previously, it doesn't take previously free software out of circulation. There's no basis to your argument here. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: addon sleeves / casings - wish
On 1/27/07, Lars Hallberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: polz skrev: According to this image: http://www.areamobile.de/images/handies/FIC/Neo1973/200611081450Neo1973_Rot-Gruen.jpg, the Neo1973's casing is supposed to have two pairs of grooves on each side. If I look at the larger version of that picture: http://www.linuxdevices.com/files/misc/fic_traveler_handset_fic-gta001.jpg It seems more like it's a button. --- Marcel de Jong ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion
As you point out, with Apple taking BSD software and 'competing against BSD', the market share for vanilla BSD is reduced. You can't however know whether in the medium-long term this is an 'overall good' which sped up Freedom through other interactions in the future or an overall bad. Apple geeks may migrate more easily to vanilla BSD because they are exposed to the standard terminal, and are frustrated at the limitations they find. More importantly (and very relevantly to this list) you can't compete for consumers on a basis of Not as good, but _more free_. If completely open phones are going to achieve any sort of dominance, then the same kind of work will have to go into project to support the capabilities that consumers want. More likely, this will prompt other phone manufacturers to try to find ways to compete with the iPhone in as reasonable a time as possible. Some of those ways will likely be based on Linux, and will likely wind up being a mix of proprietary and open source software, but the net outcome will be that there will be a larger amount of more capable open source software available in the product space, and more open source software being used in more devices like the NEO. It's pretty crazy for folks to be saying, But...those guys are _competing_ with BSD! Of course they are, that's what they _do_. And to compete back, BSD would have to get better. But BSD doesn't have goals of this sort: someone would have to take the initiative to make it happen. Wishing won't make it so, and somehow keeping Apple from doing it on their own won't either. But the suggestion that Apple's doing something wrong or something they shouldn't do by competing sounds...well, kind of like the stuff Microsoft likes to say about Linux, y' know? He who sets out to slay monsters must be careful that he does not become a monster himself in the process.--Friedrich Nietzsche ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/27/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More importantly (and very relevantly to this list) you can't compete for consumers on a basis of Not as good, but _more free_. If completely open phones are going to achieve any sort of dominance, then the same kind of work will have to go into project to support the capabilities that consumers want. Exactly - the one bonus that OpenMoko receives, in addition to the number of developers, is that we're not tied to any Corporate restrictions in design, contract or politically restricted technology - new software features 'saved up' for the next marketing phase. More likely, this will prompt other phone manufacturers to try to find ways to compete with the iPhone in as reasonable a time as possible. Some of those ways will likely be based on Linux, and will likely wind up being a mix of proprietary and open source software, but the net outcome will be that there will be a larger amount of more capable open source software available in the product space, and more open source software being used in more devices like the NEO. In evolutionary terms, this is a favourable environment for open vs closed software models. All free software written on open or selectively open hardware platforms, strengthens free software. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On Saturday 27 January 2007 08:38, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: On Saturday 27 January 2007 16:10:43 Declan Naughton wrote: But I prefer copyleft - the idea of using the law to try and make sure freedom doesn't go away, to giving others the freedom to take it away. If others take code under the BSDL and put it into a closed system, freedom doesn't go away at all. It just doesn't necessarily extend any further. BSD License: Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law. General Public License: Share and share alike. BSDL is technically a 'weak', or 'lazy' license, _insofar_ that whatever it's attached to may be arbitrarily inclosed by the inheritor, while GPL is technically a 'strong' ( viral? [1] ) license, in that it strictly enforces its own existence upon whatever it's attached to. BSDL contains an inherent self-destruct gene, GPL contains a built-in propagation gene. I very much appreciate and admire the BSDL for its straight-forward simplicity and its stark purity of intent [2] - whereas I value the GPL for its clear determined purpose in maintaining an atmosphere of sharing and collaboration to the equal benefit of all. Both licenses do in fact provide society with a wealth of Free software, and both obviously have their uses in particular general circumstances. That said, I think it can be readily observed that BSDL _tends_ to be more corporate-friendly, while GPL _tends_ to be more people-friendly. I do, however, have a tough time with the claim that BSDL is more free, because _actual_, _sustainable_ freedom/liberty requires certain obvious restrictions. [1] I don't think viral is accurate, because a virus intrudes its host and is either destructive or parasitic in some capacity, however I use it so nobody can accuse me of utilizing preferential language for GPL vs BDSL; i.e. weak, lazy [2] the GPL will no longer be necessary when, to merrily paraphrase Thoreau: I heartily accept the motto, That [software-license] is best which governs least; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--That [software-license] is best which governs not at all; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of license which they will have. ... BSDL governs not at all, which the anarchist in me very much appreciates. To digress further, what I would love to see, is a license with the full explicit _spirit_ of the GPL, but which does not actually enforce that spirit through any means other than its own merit. Beers! Corey ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
openmoko-devel ( was Re: Please keep discussion on topic )
https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/openmoko-devel On Saturday 27 January 2007 10:04, Jonathon Suggs wrote: Can we PLEASE keep the posts to the entire list ON TOPIC!!! The last few digest have all been about licensing, personal agendas, and discussion NOT related to OpenMoko. And just in case you need a reminder, this is the OpenMoko mailing list. Does this list have moderators? If so, it is getting close to a level that something may need to be done. If you want to continue your discussions, then just reply back to the original author/authors. That way we can keep this list focused on what it was set out to do. Exchange ideas for the OpenMoko platform. Sorry to sound condescending, and please don't take this personally. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Position of u-SD slot?
I'm interested in making use of the u-SD slot with a card much like the Spectec microSDIO WiFi 11g Card, but one developed in house for more general wireless networking. I assume that the u-SD slot is accessed via the back side of the device, but does anyone know if it will be behind the battery or on the side of it? Behind the battery doesn't work so well for wireless without using antenna, while beside leaves this as an option (with a minimal antenna). There is, of course, the meta question of whether or not the hardware can support such a card at all ... I really don't know the SD spec well enough yet (but that's coming sooner rather than later ;). Thanks for any thoughts or comments! - MLD ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Position of u-SD slot?
Salve Michael! On Sat, 27 Jan 2007, Michael Dickens wrote: I'm interested in making use of the u-SD slot with a card much like the Spectec microSDIO WiFi 11g Card, but one developed in house for more general wireless networking. I assume that the u-SD slot is accessed via the back side of the device, but does anyone know if it will be behind the battery or on the side of it? Sorry, it will be behind the battery, so an USB hub with battery power and an USB WiFi Adapter will be an alternative Of course WiFi is interesting, but I see it as advantage to concentrate on Bluetooth solutions first. Bluetooth with a free hackable phone will have general wireless networking potential as well ;) Greetings, rob ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: PLEASE KEEP DISCUSSION ON TOPIC!!!
I have simply trained my Bayesian Spam filter... Am 27.01.2007 um 18:04 schrieb Jonathon Suggs: Can we PLEASE keep the posts to the entire list ON TOPIC!!! The last few digest have all been about licensing, personal agendas, and discussion NOT related to OpenMoko. And just in case you need a reminder, this is the OpenMoko mailing list. Does this list have moderators? If so, it is getting close to a level that something may need to be done. If you want to continue your discussions, then just reply back to the original author/authors. That way we can keep this list focused on what it was set out to do. Exchange ideas for the OpenMoko platform. Sorry to sound condescending, and please don't take this personally. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
(offlist) On 27/01/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is simply untrue. The fact is, as originally stated, that the BSD preceded the GPL (by two years or ten) I would really appeciate some evidence of this. Here my evidence that the original BSD license was first used in 1989, the same year as the original GPL: In June 1989 the Berkeley group took just this approach, releasing the TCP/IP code and a set of supporting utilities that had been written without any ATT code as 'Networking Release 1.' 'Networking Release 1 came with generous licensing terms. This was the first example of what would later be called a BSD-style license. - http://books.google.co.uk/books?q=%22came+with+generous+licensing+terms%22 -- Regards, Dave ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU discussion
On 1/28/07, Corey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BSDL contains an inherent self-destruct gene, GPL contains a built-in propagation gene. And Non-Free Software contains a built-in propagation gene which cannot evolve its medium (technology) as quickly as the license-gene for Free Software can. But evolution requires competition, and this is why I think the relationship between free and non-free software is becoming increasingly sybiotic - when private companies do something which benefit themselves and improve the quality of Free Software - it's a win/win for Freedom and Technology. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OMG wiki license
On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 12:25 -0500, Richard Franks wrote: I think this is all a bit overkill. I don't see any license other than the description this mailing list is for open discussion and feedback, for this mailing list.. yet these potentially copyrightable messages are mirrored by openmoko.com, gmane, etc. Why isn't everyone being sued? Right, there are many issues, but lets just focus on the wiki right now ;) In our case, the source was either: a) An intentional email sent without copyright notice, to a membership-unknown public mailing list, with full knowledge that it would be stored and made freely available. b) An intentional edit made to a freely accessible public wiki. I don't see a legal case being made out of this. Right, but better to protect ourselves. Also, companies, like FIC/OpenMoko have to take every precaution. So, if we want our content included, we need to be cautious as well. snip / Why don't we take a snapshot of the current wiki, and reword the content into a new licensed wiki? It's less work than doing everything all over again, we lose no contributions, and it's an opportunity to reorganise a bit. I'll volunteer to do a chunk of that work if we go that route. Richard Yes, this is an option. Who is related to opentogo? And/or, what is the best way to go about this approach. I also thought about going through and deleting a page, putting a GNU FDL 1.2 statement at the top of the page, and then summarizing/redoing the old content. This way, any future contributions are protected. Cool? Yet again, I propose we do this at 11:59 PM PST SAT JAN 27 so we can knock this out. What do you think? Jon On 1/27/07, David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/27/07 3:26 AM, Jon Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2007-01-25 at 16:21 +0100, Harald Welte wrote: On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:29:47AM -0500, Richard Franks wrote: then there is no copyright issue as the contributors have implicitly put their words into the public domain? This is not true and for sure in the US, where the instant someone contributes, their contribution is governed under copyright. Correct. You can't implicitly put anything into the public domain under US copyright law: you'd have to make a specific and concrete declaration to do so, or (more usually) simply wait for the copyright on it to expire... If you're interesting in folding all the Wiki content under the FDL, and you want to avoid running afoul of potential copyright entanglements, you're going to have to start over from scratch, I believe. You're also going to need to have each participant explicitly agree (probably when their account is created) to get explicit agreement that they abandon any interests they hold in any content they create on the site and assign copyright to such content to The OpenMoko Project or whatever. You might well also want a statement to the effect that any content they submit must not be derivative of material held under copyright elsewhere and be free of other encumbrances, etc., etc... This could get complicated, see...? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jon Phillips San Francisco, CA USA PH 510.499.0894 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.rejon.org MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto Jabber Chat: [EMAIL PROTECTED] IRC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: GNU discussion (was re:Free your phone)
(offlist) Not. I would really appeciate some evidence of this... Fine. You're correct that the GPL and the BSD came out in the same year. In any case, there was, as I've said, plenty of free software (although few licenses) a decade and more before any of this. Now that I've agreed that I was incorrect on that fairly minor point, how about you provide the evidence to support your contention that copyright was intended to benefit the general public when they could not make copies of their own? Also, perhaps a response to my question as to how I'm being unethical by using Photoshop and Illustrator. I'm likewise still very interested in understanding how it's more wrong to respect the wishes of an artist as regards the publication of his or her material than it is to tell a friend that you feel they ought to purchase a copy of the material in question in accordance with those wishes. Not to mention an explanation about where I got left in your ethical analysis when you decided it was less wrong for you to hand your friend a copy of my photograph, gratis, for use in his magazine, than it was for him to rob me of the fee I ask for the use of that photograph. Your turn. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OMG wiki license
On 1/27/07, Jon Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see a legal case being made out of this. Right, but better to protect ourselves. Also, companies, like FIC/OpenMoko have to take every precaution. So, if we want our content included, we need to be cautious as well. Agreed - but I think the risk here is so minimal, that we can decide upon a license and push the deadline back one week, which would give contributors a chance to add the new license to their own pages. Pros: * We may get revised/improved/edited content by increasing the number of people involved. * Intent or nuance will not be accidentally changed. I also thought about going through and deleting a page, putting a GNU FDL 1.2 statement at the top of the page, and then summarizing/redoing the old content. This way, any future contributions are protected. Cool? Yet again, I propose we do this at 11:59 PM PST SAT JAN 27 so we can knock this out. What do you think? Unless we have any parties - FIC, individual contributors or editors - who feel that extending that deadline by one week would be putting them under additional risk, then I'd say +1 week is an appropriate response to a pragmatic estimate of the extreme unlikelihood of the occurrence or significance of the threat. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: h.264 format is now open?
At Sat, 27 Jan 2007 11:05:49 -0600, el jefe delito wrote: http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/07/01/27/0755234.shtml It looks like the MP4 (or M4V) video format is now no longer covered by patents, if I am readig this correctly (and if the article is accurate.) Due to it being a high-resolution phone, and assuming that we'll watch video on it anyway, there should be efforts towards implementing this! 1) This is only about the US, not the rest of the world. 2) There are 22 other companies claiming to have patents on H.264: http://www.mpegla.com/avc/avc-licensors.cfm Jeroen Dekkers ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: OMG wiki license
This all seems reasonable and appropriate as a way to move forward... In fact, there's no particular real-world danger of a legal case. First of all, no one stands to make or lose any money on the content in question, so any action would be purely symbolic. Secondly, the way to start if one wished to exercise one's control over one's own material would be to send a cease and desist message to whomever ran the wiki to have the material taken down or better-attributed or whatever... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Richard Franks Sent: Sat 1/27/2007 1:42 PM To: OpenMoko Subject: Re: OMG wiki license On 1/27/07, Jon Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see a legal case being made out of this. Right, but better to protect ourselves. Also, companies, like FIC/OpenMoko have to take every precaution. So, if we want our content included, we need to be cautious as well. Agreed - but I think the risk here is so minimal, that we can decide upon a license and push the deadline back one week, which would give contributors a chance to add the new license to their own pages. Pros: * We may get revised/improved/edited content by increasing the number of people involved. * Intent or nuance will not be accidentally changed. I also thought about going through and deleting a page, putting a GNU FDL 1.2 statement at the top of the page, and then summarizing/redoing the old content. This way, any future contributions are protected. Cool? Yet again, I propose we do this at 11:59 PM PST SAT JAN 27 so we can knock this out. What do you think? Unless we have any parties - FIC, individual contributors or editors - who feel that extending that deadline by one week would be putting them under additional risk, then I'd say +1 week is an appropriate response to a pragmatic estimate of the extreme unlikelihood of the occurrence or significance of the threat. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: GNU, evangelizing, whining, rudeness, etc.
David Ford skrev: We overwhelmingly need a community-evangelize list of which I won't be subscribing to. This is a good suggestion. I'm actually interested in this topic, but refuse to take part in it on this list as it's so obviously of topic. /LaH ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: openmoko-devel ( was Re: Please keep discussion on topic )
On Sun, 2007-01-28 at 00:51 -0700, Corey wrote: https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/openmoko-devel Great! I've subscribed to that list and will unsubscribe to this in due course. I swear if I read the words GNU/Linux and freedom mentioned there Whatever good bits come off of this list, I hope that it just gets distilled into the wiki. Ciao! -- Richi ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: h.264 format is now open?
This is not probably called for at this point, Neo1973 pretty certainly does _not_ have enough horsepower to play back h.264. (I'm hoping to I think you'd be surprised. I'm going to bet that there won't be much of an issue getting smooth playback. If you look at the brains of the iPod Video it uses and ARM922T (32-bit) @ 200MHz, with 8K/8K cache. The processor of the Neo1973 is 32/16 bit running at 266mhz with 16K/16K cache. By the specs it should really be quite easy to get running... unless you're saying that those guys over at Apple Inc. can outcode us? And i'm sure you're not sayng that :-D And besides i'm sure that if for some reason h.264 had problems and Ogg/Theora solution would be significantly less intensive on the hardware (and thus probably better on your battery too). ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
A: desktop software?
Am Samstag, 27. Januar 2007 schrieb Oleg L. Sverdlov: What software is planned on desktop side? If any. Well, even if there will be no desktop-software, specially for the Neo, I think it'll support serveral protocols for syncing (for example syncml). So its not a problem to sync with any software supporting these protocols. I don't know which Windowsapp will do so, but there are at least three or four of them for kde (well, I know, kde != linux but they are well-integrated in the kdedesktop). So IMHO the project will not fail because of this. Fabian ___ Der frühe Vogel fängt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Phone enhancements
Seriously.. a breathalizer embedded in the mic, I know I'd love that! Can't see it happening though, but it probably wouldn't be all that expensive. Still, most people won't be interested in it. ... I don't know if you've looked at the cost of a stand alone breathalyzer however it ends up being 70 bucks (cheapest i've found) so if you just get the sensor with no software and add in the additional discout of bulk buying you're probably looking at an additional 20-50 on the phone depending on the supplying company. Not a bad increase in price really but for the first gen device i personally wouldn't include it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Phone enhancements
Ok, that's expensive. Would be cool to play with though. On 1/27/07, Bryce Leo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Seriously.. a breathalizer embedded in the mic, I know I'd love that! Can't see it happening though, but it probably wouldn't be all that expensive. Still, most people won't be interested in it. ... I don't know if you've looked at the cost of a stand alone breathalyzer however it ends up being 70 bucks (cheapest i've found) so if you just get the sensor with no software and add in the additional discout of bulk buying you're probably looking at an additional 20-50 on the phone depending on the supplying company. Not a bad increase in price really but for the first gen device i personally wouldn't include it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Declan Naughton ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Phone enhancements
Oh don't get me wrong I completely agree with you and I would whole heartedly buy a usb add on if one were created, i'm just saying that it would be really cool but currently is cost prohibitive for the first version. That would be a really neat selling point for the next version, gps and a breathalyser the ultimate college student phone, then when you wake up dazed and confused you'll know weather you should drive back home and also know how to get there. :-D ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Phone enhancements
I just saw you use your phone while driving! No, officer, I was only checking my blood alcohol level! Great... :D Also, I wonder what the German law has to say about using a breathalyzer while driving... On 1/28/07, Bryce Leo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh don't get me wrong I completely agree with you and I would whole heartedly buy a usb add on if one were created, i'm just saying that it would be really cool but currently is cost prohibitive for the first version. That would be a really neat selling point for the next version, gps and a breathalyser the ultimate college student phone, then when you wake up dazed and confused you'll know weather you should drive back home and also know how to get there. :-D ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Position of u-SD slot?
On Jan 27, 2007, at 3:27 PM, Gabriel Ambuehl wrote: Unfortunately, it's behind the battery. It's a SIM card/microSD combo device. Anyone believe that there is space to run an antenna wire (or 2) around the battery w/o ruining the device? - MLD ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: OMG wiki license
Ok, well I think there is some need for speed for doing this so all future contributions are legally clear. Ok, lets shoot for the end of the day monday to have converted the pages. Also, we need a wikiable gnu fdl statement to use that we can put on each page that is reworked. Dave, woule you like to take a stab at that? Jon -Original Message- From: David Schlesinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Richard Franks [EMAIL PROTECTED]; OpenMoko community@lists.openmoko.org Sent: 1/27/2007 2:09 PM Subject: RE: OMG wiki license This all seems reasonable and appropriate as a way to move forward... In fact, there's no particular real-world danger of a legal case. First of all, no one stands to make or lose any money on the content in question, so any action would be purely symbolic. Secondly, the way to start if one wished to exercise one's control over one's own material would be to send a cease and desist message to whomever ran the wiki to have the material taken down or better-attributed or whatever... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Richard Franks Sent: Sat 1/27/2007 1:42 PM To: OpenMoko Subject: Re: OMG wiki license On 1/27/07, Jon Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see a legal case being made out of this. Right, but better to protect ourselves. Also, companies, like FIC/OpenMoko have to take every precaution. So, if we want our content included, we need to be cautious as well. Agreed - but I think the risk here is so minimal, that we can decide upon a license and push the deadline back one week, which would give contributors a chance to add the new license to their own pages. Pros: * We may get revised/improved/edited content by increasing the number of people involved. * Intent or nuance will not be accidentally changed. I also thought about going through and deleting a page, putting a GNU FDL 1.2 statement at the top of the page, and then summarizing/redoing the old content. This way, any future contributions are protected. Cool? Yet again, I propose we do this at 11:59 PM PST SAT JAN 27 so we can knock this out. What do you think? Unless we have any parties - FIC, individual contributors or editors - who feel that extending that deadline by one week would be putting them under additional risk, then I'd say +1 week is an appropriate response to a pragmatic estimate of the extreme unlikelihood of the occurrence or significance of the threat. Richard ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: OMG wiki license
I'm usually a big nitpicker on the legal side, but suspend that for a moment and ask yourselves: is anybody who contributed to the wiki going to want to sue FIC for importing the content into an official wiki? I think that any major effort to restart the wiki is wasted effort that could be better spent elsewhere, whether for OpenMoko related activities or not. In any case, if you're going to get a license agreement on the wiki, it does not belong in the editable part of pages, it belongs in the edit UI as an agreement, i.e. By submitting content to this wiki you agree that you own the copyright for the submitted content, and agree to release it under the GNU Free Documentation License.. That way you don't have to waste effort putting a header on each page, and you don't have to worry about the integrity of all of the headers. However, I still don't think that there is a licensing issue with the content of the wiki, since the only people contributing to it would be extremely likely to be supportive of OpenMoko. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: collaborating on bluetooth audio
Koen After reading the LCA slides on pulse-audio it seems to be the best choice for an audiorouting app FYI, I mocked up some diagrams including one that incorporates pulse. I am hoping to have some of these ideas validated, so let me know if you have any thoughts on it. http://bluetooth-alsa.sourceforge.net/future.html#pulse The picture has gotten really busy with everything elaborated but hopefully everyone gets the idea. Brad ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Q: desktop software?
um, isn't syncml supported out of the box? I swear I remember hearing that On 1/27/07, Jonathon Suggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good question. I think it was mentioned earlier that the phone will support some stand protocols for syncing (syncml comes to mind). However, it still isn't an easy task to get you synced up with Outlook. That would be a GREAT thing to put in the wiki. How to sync with Outlook (via whatever) as that will probably be a top request. I've tried to look into what all would be involved in setting up a server, but didn't really get that far (didn't spend that much time though). If someone knows of a good guide, then please post. Keep the ideas flowing! On Sat, 2007-01-27 at 21:08 +0200, Oleg L. Sverdlov wrote: What software is planned on desktop side? If any. This is important thing IMHO. There are good and bad examples. Palm Desktop for Windows was good. I'm using it from 1998, did not loose any data. It serves both as organizer, address book and as palm synchronization. That is what I call high quality software. On the other side, software with Zaurus handheld was just unusable. The lack of good desktop sync software contributed to the failure of Zaurus organizer project. Oleg ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Jeff O|||O ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
