Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power

[Andy Green]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:

> being an electronics engineer myself i recommend this too. The sound is not
> something the phone should be emitting in normal operation.

These bad noises often come from inductors under physical stress from
the magnetic fields they are being made to develop.

This should not be a "feature" of GTA02 hopefully.

- -Andy
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Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power

[Tim Knapp]

On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 16:55 +1300, Ben Wilson wrote:
> Hi Tim
> 
> While it is possible I think it's quite unlikely. When switchmode power 
> supplies die they normally destroy themselves.
> I would expect, if damage occurred due to usb powered battery removal, 
> the phone would be dead rather than develop booting problems.

Oh, cool - thanks for clarifying that :)

-Tim

> 
> Ben.
> 
> Tim Knapp wrote:
> > Hi Ben,
> >
> > Yeah I've done this *once* and it freaked me out. I'm still a bit
> > concerned I've caused some permanent damage on my Neo as I've had
> > problems booting images on the nand ever since but sdcard images work
> > fine - jury is still out on that one.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tim
> >
> > On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 13:45 +1300, Ben Wilson wrote:
> >   
> >> Hey,
> >>
> >> Just a reminder to everyone *NOT* to pull out the battery while the neo 
> >> has USB power.
> >>
> >> You may not have heard it but the phone gets quite angry. As evident by 
> >> a quiet scream the phone emits as the components in its power system 
> >> begin to vibrate closer to magic smoke land.
> >>
> >> Talking with people on IRC most have done this on occasion without any 
> >> damage. However you are definitely risking permanent damage with the 
> >> chance increasing with every second it is in this state.
> >>
> >> My advice would be… Don't do it and if you do it by accident then pull 
> >> the plug out quickly rather than listening to the interesting sound.
> >>
> >> (I don’t know if this also applies to gta02 or not)
> >>
> >> Ben.
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
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> >> 
> >
> >
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> >
> >   
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Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power

[Ben Wilson]

Hi Tim

While it is possible I think it's quite unlikely. When switchmode power 
supplies die they normally destroy themselves.
I would expect, if damage occurred due to usb powered battery removal, 
the phone would be dead rather than develop booting problems.


Ben.

Tim Knapp wrote:

Hi Ben,

Yeah I've done this *once* and it freaked me out. I'm still a bit
concerned I've caused some permanent damage on my Neo as I've had
problems booting images on the nand ever since but sdcard images work
fine - jury is still out on that one.

Thanks,
Tim

On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 13:45 +1300, Ben Wilson wrote:
  

Hey,

Just a reminder to everyone *NOT* to pull out the battery while the neo 
has USB power.


You may not have heard it but the phone gets quite angry. As evident by 
a quiet scream the phone emits as the components in its power system 
begin to vibrate closer to magic smoke land.


Talking with people on IRC most have done this on occasion without any 
damage. However you are definitely risking permanent damage with the 
chance increasing with every second it is in this state.


My advice would be… Don't do it and if you do it by accident then pull 
the plug out quickly rather than listening to the interesting sound.


(I don’t know if this also applies to gta02 or not)

Ben.


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Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power

[Ben Wilson]

Hey Nick,

I've not looked at the electronics inside the neo myself but the sound
is typical in the electronics world of a switchmode power supply under 
grate strain.


I was told by someone on the irc channel that OM folks recommend you 
don't do it and

being an electronics engineer myself i recommend this too. The sound is not
something the phone should be emitting in normal operation.

Ben.


Nick Guenther wrote:

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Ben Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  

Hey,

 Just a reminder to everyone *NOT* to pull out the battery while the neo
 has USB power.

 You may not have heard it but the phone gets quite angry. As evident by
 a quiet scream the phone emits as the components in its power system
 begin to vibrate closer to magic smoke land.



Is this true? I haven't been worrying about the scream at all myself.
how do you know the whine is from power components?

-Nick

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Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power

[joerg]

Am Di  4. März 2008 schrieb joerg:
> Am Di  4. März 2008 schrieb Ben Wilson:
> > Hey,
> > 
> > Just a reminder to everyone *NOT* to pull out the battery while the neo 
> > has USB power.
> Hard to tell what the state machine in 50606 will do...


Maybe substantially increase C1706 from 10u to say 470u switch type?
Anyway i wondered whether U1703 shouldn't operate PWM-mode 5->3.6V stepdown 
converter - so there's some coil and a freeweel schottky-diode missing for 
this operation mode. Probably 50606 doesn't support it at all, so just a nice 
idea.

Anyway i guess for 50633 (GTA02) this is completely different

jOERG

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Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power

[Nick Guenther]

On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 7:45 PM, Ben Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey,
>
>  Just a reminder to everyone *NOT* to pull out the battery while the neo
>  has USB power.
>
>  You may not have heard it but the phone gets quite angry. As evident by
>  a quiet scream the phone emits as the components in its power system
>  begin to vibrate closer to magic smoke land.

Is this true? I haven't been worrying about the scream at all myself.
how do you know the whine is from power components?

-Nick

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Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power

[joerg]

Am Di  4. März 2008 schrieb Ben Wilson:
> Hey,
> 
> Just a reminder to everyone *NOT* to pull out the battery while the neo 
> has USB power.

Hard to tell what the state machine in 50606 will do...
:-(

sure no good idea to try on a precious piece of hardware

j

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Re: Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power

[Tim Knapp]

Hi Ben,

Yeah I've done this *once* and it freaked me out. I'm still a bit
concerned I've caused some permanent damage on my Neo as I've had
problems booting images on the nand ever since but sdcard images work
fine - jury is still out on that one.

Thanks,
Tim

On Tue, 2008-03-04 at 13:45 +1300, Ben Wilson wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> Just a reminder to everyone *NOT* to pull out the battery while the neo 
> has USB power.
> 
> You may not have heard it but the phone gets quite angry. As evident by 
> a quiet scream the phone emits as the components in its power system 
> begin to vibrate closer to magic smoke land.
> 
> Talking with people on IRC most have done this on occasion without any 
> damage. However you are definitely risking permanent damage with the 
> chance increasing with every second it is in this state.
> 
> My advice would be… Don't do it and if you do it by accident then pull 
> the plug out quickly rather than listening to the interesting sound.
> 
> (I don’t know if this also applies to gta02 or not)
> 
> Ben.
> 
> 
> ___
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Warning. Don't remove battery with usb power

[Ben Wilson]

Hey,

Just a reminder to everyone *NOT* to pull out the battery while the neo 
has USB power.


You may not have heard it but the phone gets quite angry. As evident by 
a quiet scream the phone emits as the components in its power system 
begin to vibrate closer to magic smoke land.


Talking with people on IRC most have done this on occasion without any 
damage. However you are definitely risking permanent damage with the 
chance increasing with every second it is in this state.


My advice would be… Don't do it and if you do it by accident then pull 
the plug out quickly rather than listening to the interesting sound.


(I don’t know if this also applies to gta02 or not)

Ben.


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Re: iphone-haptic

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

Andrea Debortoli ha scritto:
It's an hard thing to tell if it could be useful or not...it's a totally 
new feature (I've never seen something similar), and I think we can 
evaluate it with practical test only.


I've an old iFeel Logitech mouse with haptic support (vibrate on 
actions). Under Linux I only got it vibrate, but I was planning to make 
it interact also with the xserver actions, maybe this work should be 
used by Openmoko too...


--
Treviño's World - Life and Linux
http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: chroot desn't work

[Federico]

> even more severe: why is it a ARM binary!?
Very strage... i try to make clean busybox and rebuild it whitout
success. It is still an ARM binary -_-. All of other programs in /bin
are x86_64

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Re: chroot desn't work

[joerg]

Am Mo  3. März 2008 schrieb Federico:
> mmh you are right:
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/moko/mokobox$ file bin/sh
> bin/sh: symbolic link to `busybox'
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/moko/mokobox$ file bin/busybox
> bin/busybox: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV),
> dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped
> 
> but i compile the whole openmoko with X86_64 flag (i'm using ubuntu 64 bit).
> Why busybox is a 32-bit binary?

even more severe: why is it a ARM binary!?

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Re: chroot desn't work

[Federico]

mmh you are right:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/moko/mokobox$ file bin/sh
bin/sh: symbolic link to `busybox'
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/moko/mokobox$ file bin/busybox
bin/busybox: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV),
dynamically linked (uses shared libs), stripped

but i compile the whole openmoko with X86_64 flag (i'm using ubuntu 64 bit).
Why busybox is a 32-bit binary?

2008/3/3, Al Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Monday 03 March 2008, Federico wrote:
>  > Hi all,
>  > I'm following this guide:
>  > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr
>  >
>  > I copy rootfs on mokobox but when i chroot into it i have this issue:
>  > sudo chroot mokobox /bin/sh
>  > chroot: cannot run command `/bin/sh': Exec format error
>  >
>  > Why? In mokobox directory sh is present in /bin :/
>
>
> Did it build for a different platform to the one you are running on? Check the
>  format of the the executable from outside the chroot using:
> file mokobox/bin/sh
>
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Re: Virtual QWERTY Keyboards to be used with Fingers...

[Lorn Potter]

On Monday 03 March 2008, Karsten Ensinger wrote:


> Then I started Qtopia (without a SIM card inserted) and had a look
> at the notes application (this was the first application I found
> which offers text input).
> The keyboard contained only lower case characters and there was no
> obvious way to get upper case letters. I was also missing a
> possibility to remove mistyped characters.
> So the first impression was: an "intuitive user interface" looks
> different to me.
> Although the character distance was very small, I managed to get
> a "hit rate" of more than 90 percent for hitting the intended
> "key".
> The word prediction was great when writing simple english stuff,
> but absolutely useless, when typing german. In addition to this,
> it missed most of the complicated english vocabulary I tried.
> I could not find a way to switch a dictionary, so this was not
> an option.
>
>
> Survey (after half an hour of testing and three complete screen
> lockups):
> I don't want to put down the implementation of the Qtopia
> keyboard at all. I have much respect for the quality one can
> see.
> But to me it seems as if the keyboard was not designed for finger
> use in first place. A "hit rate" of 90 percent (when using an adult
> fingertip) is barely acceptable.

Actually it was. You only have to come close to a letter to select one. It 
tries to guess what word you are wanting, as well as looking at the letters 
in the general area of your finger pressing.

If  you do not like the predictive feature, then you can hold down on a letter 
to select only that one.

> The usage is not yet intuitive (how to do a backspace, a delete,
> use upper case letters, use special characters (like @,$,&,/)?)

move your finger up or down to get to get to 
caps, numbers and symbols. backspace is moving your finger from right to left.

> and due to the "look alike" of a regular "hardware" keyboard and
> the expectations caused by this, the frustration is high, when
> one can not handle simple things without looking for help
> (is there a helpfile for the keyboard input? I only found help
> for the application itself but not for the usage of the keyboard).

There should be yes. But looking at the input method help from the menu I am 
not seeing it. I will look into this and make sure it gets fixed.

>
> The GUI of Qtopia itself looks very impressive from a design
> point of view. But I am missing something like a bubble-help
> (e.g. press and hold a key and get a small hint of what the
> meaning of the key is), although this is not specific to Qtopia
> but is missing in Openmoko also. It is NOT always true that
> a picture says more than a thousand words (at least not pictures
> of 64x64 pixels).
>
> Maybe I am too biased, but most of the critics we discussed
> months ago became manifest in this implementation of a screen
> keyboard. It is smart, but needs "tricks" to handle the problems
> of imprecise finger touches, lack of screen space for great numbers
> of keys and fault tolerance. This leads to a learning curve one
> has to master before being able to use the keyboard as such.

A qwerty keyboard also has a learning curve at first. Ever tried graffiti 
input?

> If the user has to master a learning curve anyway, why not take a
> completely different approach, which is designed exactly for the
> problems first and foremost? If the approach is different enough,
> the user will accept/expect a learning curve (and will tolerate it,
> if it is not too steep).

Knowing four things for the predictive keyboard in Qtopia will get you going.

1) tap on the letters like normal, a word, or words will appear, you have to 
tap on the word to enter that in whatever text you are inputting.

2) slide your finger up and down to switch caps, undercase, numbers and 
symbols.

3) slider your finger right to left to backspace

4) to select a letter without the word prediction, hold down your finger over 
a letter. You can even rotate your finger to select letters around it if it 
detected the wrong one.

Is that a too high learning curve?


Using only a finger, the predictive keyboard cannot be beat. Qtopia also has 
handwriting and a 'normal' qwerty keyboard with the use of a stylus. Someone 
has also gotten dasher running.




-- 
Lorn 'ljp' Potter
Software Engineer, Systems Group, MES, Trolltech

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Re: Virtual QWERTY Keyboards to be used with Fingers...

[Shawn Rutledge]

On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 12:47 AM, Karsten Ensinger
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sorry to jump into the thread this late, but I am wondering
>  if you already examined the following Wiki-Link?
>  We had a very extensive discussion about text input running
>  on the community list several months ago.
>  Nearly all proposals were documented on the following Wiki:
>
>  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Text_Input
>
>  My personal favourites are the Quickwriting (there is even
>  a java demo available) and "another text input" (although
>  it seems to be another implementation of this more moko-like
>  implementation: http://www.micropp.se/openmoko/splash.html ).

I think for the finger use case, Raster's idea sounds very well
thought-out, especially the part about choosing the dictionary
according to context and selecting most-likely words or commands.  I
just hope we don't end up infringing any Apple patents.  :-)  I think
the keyboard should have fewer and larger keys though; the one in the
November release has such tiny ones that you can hardly read them.
There's nothing wrong with switching to another view to get the
"extra" keys (e.g. any punctuation beyond period, comma and @-sign) as
long as the switching is easy.

For the stylus case, I like this one:

http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html

and after implementing a prototype I think I like the experience of
using it, too.  It is something extra to learn, though, and one is not
always using a stylus.  In the end it should be possible to implement
various kinds of entry methods, and people will have their preferences
about which one to actually use.

The teenagers know T9 pretty well nowadays (can type without looking)
but that's on a tactile keyboard, not a touchscreen.  Goes to show how
adaptable people are, I guess.

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Re: 25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see

[David Samblas Martinez]

I was thinking on freerunner not 1973 sorry gora

Andrea Debortoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: FreeRunner has accelerometers...
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#Accelerometers

GTA01 does not :-(
 
2008/3/3, Gora Mohanty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:17:42 +0100 
(CET)
 David Samblas Martinez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 [...]
 
> 22. Digital level
 > Is any side of the phone straigh enough to be able to
  > develop such a freaking geek widget?
 > I could be a funny exercice to play with the
 > accelerometers.
 
[...]
 
 The Neo 1973 does not have accelerometers, does it?
 
 The above would tickle my geek bone enough to do it
  if the Neo 1973 had accelerometers. I have an old
 Simputer that does have accelerometers, and has a
 great game which is a computer analogue of a child's
 handheld game. The real-life game is usually made
  out of cheap plastic, and has a series of concentric
 circular ridges with offset openings. A set of
 (usually) three ball bearings can be rolled around
 along the ridges. The objective of the game is to get
  all three bearings into the inner most circle.
 
 See
 

  for a picture of the game.
 
 Regards,
 
Gora
 

 
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¿Con Mascota por primera vez? - Sé un mejor Amigo
Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas.
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RE: Virtual QWERTY Keyboards to be used with Fingers...

[Richard Reichenbacher]

To change between character types on the keyboard flick on the keyboard up
or down.  To backspace drag across the keyboard back.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Karsten Ensinger
Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 5:31 AM
To: List for OpenMoko community discussion
Cc: "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)"
Subject: Re: Virtual QWERTY Keyboards to be used with Fingers...

Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote:
> Karsten Ensinger ha scritto:
>> I am afraid, I have to admit that I have NOT tried the Trolltech stuff
>> at all. Maybe because I thought I would deceive the openmoko movement
>> by trying "other" stuff on the Neo. ;-)
>> I will give it a try until next weekend and will change my mind if
>> it is as cool as you claim.
> 
> Ok, we're waiting for your report...!
> 

OK, I installed the latest reviewed u-boot, kernel and rootfs.
Then I tried to install Qtopia on the SD-Card. Unfortunately
every "scp" failed (even if my laptop "thought" it was successful).
I made some test and dicovered that it was possible to copy
arbitrary stuff from flash to SD-Card but not via USB->scp.
I tried to format the SD-Card, but after successful (means: no
error messages) formatting, it was impossible to mount the SD-Card.
Even my laptop (Ubuntu based) denied to mount the SD-Card then.
Lucky me, a new build appeared at buildhost and I tried the latest
and greatest u-boot, kernel and rootfs.
SD-Card could be formatted without any problem and even "scp"
succeeded this time. I followed the instructions on the wiki and
configured the Qtopia stuff for manual starting.

Then I started Qtopia (without a SIM card inserted) and had a look
at the notes application (this was the first application I found
which offers text input).
The keyboard contained only lower case characters and there was no
obvious way to get upper case letters. I was also missing a
possibility to remove mistyped characters.
So the first impression was: an "intuitive user interface" looks
different to me.
Although the character distance was very small, I managed to get
a "hit rate" of more than 90 percent for hitting the intended
"key".
The word prediction was great when writing simple english stuff,
but absolutely useless, when typing german. In addition to this,
it missed most of the complicated english vocabulary I tried.
I could not find a way to switch a dictionary, so this was not
an option.


Survey (after half an hour of testing and three complete screen
lockups):
I don't want to put down the implementation of the Qtopia
keyboard at all. I have much respect for the quality one can
see.
But to me it seems as if the keyboard was not designed for finger
use in first place. A "hit rate" of 90 percent (when using an adult
fingertip) is barely acceptable.
The usage is not yet intuitive (how to do a backspace, a delete,
use upper case letters, use special characters (like @,$,&,/)?)
and due to the "look alike" of a regular "hardware" keyboard and
the expectations caused by this, the frustration is high, when
one can not handle simple things without looking for help
(is there a helpfile for the keyboard input? I only found help
for the application itself but not for the usage of the keyboard).

The GUI of Qtopia itself looks very impressive from a design
point of view. But I am missing something like a bubble-help
(e.g. press and hold a key and get a small hint of what the
meaning of the key is), although this is not specific to Qtopia
but is missing in Openmoko also. It is NOT always true that
a picture says more than a thousand words (at least not pictures
of 64x64 pixels).

Maybe I am too biased, but most of the critics we discussed
months ago became manifest in this implementation of a screen
keyboard. It is smart, but needs "tricks" to handle the problems
of imprecise finger touches, lack of screen space for great numbers
of keys and fault tolerance. This leads to a learning curve one
has to master before being able to use the keyboard as such.
If the user has to master a learning curve anyway, why not take a
completely different approach, which is designed exactly for the
problems first and foremost? If the approach is different enough,
the user will accept/expect a learning curve (and will tolerate it,
if it is not too steep).

A car is not the adequate vehicle when travelling on a river, even
though it is possible to adapt one.


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Re: 25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see

[Andrea Debortoli]

FreeRunner has accelerometers...
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware#Accelerometers

GTA01 does not :-(

2008/3/3, Gora Mohanty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:17:42 +0100 (CET)
> David Samblas Martinez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...]
>
> > 22. Digital level
> > Is any side of the phone straigh enough to be able to
> > develop such a freaking geek widget?
> > I could be a funny exercice to play with the
> > accelerometers.
>
> [...]
>
> The Neo 1973 does not have accelerometers, does it?
>
> The above would tickle my geek bone enough to do it
> if the Neo 1973 had accelerometers. I have an old
> Simputer that does have accelerometers, and has a
> great game which is a computer analogue of a child's
> handheld game. The real-life game is usually made
> out of cheap plastic, and has a series of concentric
> circular ridges with offset openings. A set of
> (usually) three ball bearings can be rolled around
> along the ridges. The objective of the game is to get
> all three bearings into the inner most circle.
>
> See
> <
> http://brainchunk.blogspot.com/2007/11/n95-application-wishlist-golgoli-game.html
> >
> for a picture of the game.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gora
>
>
>
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Re: 25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see

[Gora Mohanty]

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 16:17:42 +0100 (CET)
David Samblas Martinez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> 22. Digital level 
> Is any side of the phone straigh enough to be able to 
> develop such a freaking geek widget?
> I could be a funny exercice to play with the
> accelerometers.
[...]

The Neo 1973 does not have accelerometers, does it?

The above would tickle my geek bone enough to do it
if the Neo 1973 had accelerometers. I have an old
Simputer that does have accelerometers, and has a
great game which is a computer analogue of a child's
handheld game. The real-life game is usually made
out of cheap plastic, and has a series of concentric
circular ridges with offset openings. A set of
(usually) three ball bearings can be rolled around
along the ridges. The objective of the game is to get
all three bearings into the inner most circle.

See

for a picture of the game.

Regards,
Gora


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Re: chroot desn't work

[Al Johnson]

On Monday 03 March 2008, Federico wrote:
> Hi all,
> I'm following this guide:
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr
>
> I copy rootfs on mokobox but when i chroot into it i have this issue:
> sudo chroot mokobox /bin/sh
> chroot: cannot run command `/bin/sh': Exec format error
>
> Why? In mokobox directory sh is present in /bin :/

Did it build for a different platform to the one you are running on? Check the 
format of the the executable from outside the chroot using:
file mokobox/bin/sh

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chroot desn't work

[Federico]

Hi all,
I'm following this guide:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr

I copy rootfs on mokobox but when i chroot into it i have this issue:
sudo chroot mokobox /bin/sh
chroot: cannot run command `/bin/sh': Exec format error

Why? In mokobox directory sh is present in /bin :/

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Re: 25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see

[joerg]

Am Mo  3. März 2008 schrieb Tilman Baumann:
> David Samblas Martinez wrote:
> 
> > 22. Digital level 
> > Is any side of the phone straigh enough to be able to 
> > develop such a freaking geek widget?
> > I could be a funny exercice to play with the
> > accelerometers.

Sure, at least backside.

> 
> No camera, no point. ;)
> 
>   Tilman

???

j

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Re: 25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see

[Tilman Baumann]

David Samblas Martinez wrote:

22. Digital level 
Is any side of the phone straigh enough to be able to 
develop such a freaking geek widget?

I could be a funny exercice to play with the
accelerometers.


No camera, no point. ;)

 Tilman

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Re: iphone-haptic

[Ortwin Regel]

On 3/3/08, Gilbert Hartmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Does anyone know how this compares to the feedback on the Wii when using the
> keyboard? It sounds fairly similar (save for the Wii's lack of a
> touchscreen)
>
> - --Bert

It should be similar but there is a major difference: On the Wii you
get vibration feedback all the time while you are pointing at the
screen. On the Neo you only get vibration feedback when touching the
screen and touching the screen already means that you are pressing a
button. (On a standard touchscreen keyboard at least.)


To make vibration feedback with a tapping-keyboard more useful, the
force of the vibration could indicate whether you hit a key right in
the middle or more to the rim (and thus maybe hit the wrong key). I'm
not sure how much the force of a short vibration can be tuned on the
Neo but this is certainly something worth finding out.

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libmokoui2

[ian chu]

HELLO~~

when I install th e toolchain  , http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Toolchain
I met the problem that

"No package 'libmokoui2' found "

But I could find it in the PC.


Even when I wanted to execute the application in qemu directly ,  like :
[EMAIL 
PROTECTED]:~/moko/openmoko/trunk/src/target/OM-2007.2/applications/openmoko-sample2$
./autogen.sh

I still met  "No package 'libmokoui2' found "

Does  anyone meet the same problem?   What should I do to solve this?


THx  in advance...


Ian
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Re: 25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see

[David Samblas Martinez]

I agree with kenneth ,
visit  
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_Core_Applications
and 
http://projects.openmoko.org
to do the matching beetween this list and the
developed/working progress/planned application for
openmoko

but there is one on this list that is not in any of
the pages above.

22. Digital level 
Is any side of the phone straigh enough to be able to 
develop such a freaking geek widget?
I could be a funny exercice to play with the
accelerometers.
 --- kenneth marken <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: 
> On Monday 03 March 2008 13:44:53 Breakable wrote:
> > Hello there,
> > I found this link in Google news. Its a list of
> applications users might
> > want for iPhone.
> >
>
http://www.macworld.com/article/132322/2008/03/iphoneapps.html
> >
> > I think by replacing iPhone with OpenMoko we would
> not make a big mistake.
> > Regards,
> > Ignas
> 
> heh, i suspect that many of those are in the works
> or will show up as the 
> openmoko phones start to spread out. some of those
> can even be done by ports 
> of existing software, like pidgin for im support of
> any kind.
> 
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¿Con Mascota por primera vez? Sé un mejor Amigo. Entra en Yahoo! Respuestas 
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Re: 25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see

[kenneth marken]

On Monday 03 March 2008 13:44:53 Breakable wrote:
> Hello there,
> I found this link in Google news. Its a list of applications users might
> want for iPhone.
> http://www.macworld.com/article/132322/2008/03/iphoneapps.html
>
> I think by replacing iPhone with OpenMoko we would not make a big mistake.
> Regards,
> Ignas

heh, i suspect that many of those are in the works or will show up as the 
openmoko phones start to spread out. some of those can even be done by ports 
of existing software, like pidgin for im support of any kind.

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25 native [iPhone|OpenMoko] we hope to see

[Breakable]

Hello there,
I found this link in Google news. Its a list of applications users might
want for iPhone.
http://www.macworld.com/article/132322/2008/03/iphoneapps.html

I think by replacing iPhone with OpenMoko we would not make a big mistake.
Regards,
Ignas
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Re: Virtual QWERTY Keyboards to be used with Fingers...

[Karsten Ensinger]

Marco Trevisan (Treviño) wrote:

Karsten Ensinger ha scritto:

I am afraid, I have to admit that I have NOT tried the Trolltech stuff
at all. Maybe because I thought I would deceive the openmoko movement
by trying "other" stuff on the Neo. ;-)
I will give it a try until next weekend and will change my mind if
it is as cool as you claim.


Ok, we're waiting for your report...!



OK, I installed the latest reviewed u-boot, kernel and rootfs.
Then I tried to install Qtopia on the SD-Card. Unfortunately
every "scp" failed (even if my laptop "thought" it was successful).
I made some test and dicovered that it was possible to copy
arbitrary stuff from flash to SD-Card but not via USB->scp.
I tried to format the SD-Card, but after successful (means: no
error messages) formatting, it was impossible to mount the SD-Card.
Even my laptop (Ubuntu based) denied to mount the SD-Card then.
Lucky me, a new build appeared at buildhost and I tried the latest
and greatest u-boot, kernel and rootfs.
SD-Card could be formatted without any problem and even "scp"
succeeded this time. I followed the instructions on the wiki and
configured the Qtopia stuff for manual starting.

Then I started Qtopia (without a SIM card inserted) and had a look
at the notes application (this was the first application I found
which offers text input).
The keyboard contained only lower case characters and there was no
obvious way to get upper case letters. I was also missing a
possibility to remove mistyped characters.
So the first impression was: an "intuitive user interface" looks
different to me.
Although the character distance was very small, I managed to get
a "hit rate" of more than 90 percent for hitting the intended
"key".
The word prediction was great when writing simple english stuff,
but absolutely useless, when typing german. In addition to this,
it missed most of the complicated english vocabulary I tried.
I could not find a way to switch a dictionary, so this was not
an option.


Survey (after half an hour of testing and three complete screen
lockups):
I don't want to put down the implementation of the Qtopia
keyboard at all. I have much respect for the quality one can
see.
But to me it seems as if the keyboard was not designed for finger
use in first place. A "hit rate" of 90 percent (when using an adult
fingertip) is barely acceptable.
The usage is not yet intuitive (how to do a backspace, a delete,
use upper case letters, use special characters (like @,$,&,/)?)
and due to the "look alike" of a regular "hardware" keyboard and
the expectations caused by this, the frustration is high, when
one can not handle simple things without looking for help
(is there a helpfile for the keyboard input? I only found help
for the application itself but not for the usage of the keyboard).

The GUI of Qtopia itself looks very impressive from a design
point of view. But I am missing something like a bubble-help
(e.g. press and hold a key and get a small hint of what the
meaning of the key is), although this is not specific to Qtopia
but is missing in Openmoko also. It is NOT always true that
a picture says more than a thousand words (at least not pictures
of 64x64 pixels).

Maybe I am too biased, but most of the critics we discussed
months ago became manifest in this implementation of a screen
keyboard. It is smart, but needs "tricks" to handle the problems
of imprecise finger touches, lack of screen space for great numbers
of keys and fault tolerance. This leads to a learning curve one
has to master before being able to use the keyboard as such.
If the user has to master a learning curve anyway, why not take a
completely different approach, which is designed exactly for the
problems first and foremost? If the approach is different enough,
the user will accept/expect a learning curve (and will tolerate it,
if it is not too steep).

A car is not the adequate vehicle when travelling on a river, even
though it is possible to adapt one.


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Re: iphone-haptic

[Andy Green]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:

> I played with the motion sensors just eyeballing the raw data in hex and
> I think they're going to be very responsive and cool.
> 
> 
>> Motion sensors?
>> motion sensors are accelerometers...isn't it?
>> how can they be useful for this feature?..I though it was a vibrator
>> issue only...(and touch screen of course)

Wah I guess I got the wrong end of the stick, I was really responding to
the "software shouldn't hold the thing up" aspect.

The vibrator does have some amount of PWM ("intensity levels") support,
how repeatable that is over different devices I don't know.  Also it
would be fairly do-able to put curves of vibrator intensity over time to
some extent.  But in the end what we have is an electric motor with a
funny shaped bit of metal on the end to work with.

It wasn't clear from the pic on that site what this "actuator" is, it
could be basically what we have.

- -Andy

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHy93SOjLpvpq7dMoRAnKFAKCUMpj82R6UpHeX1x93X2x9qFIDfgCfS+yf
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=uYzQ
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Re: iphone-haptic

[Robin Paulson]

On 03/03/2008, Ortwin Regel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have doubts about the usefulness of vibrator feedback. It can't help
>  you find a button or tell you whether you pressed the right one. All
>  it does is tell you that you pressed a button at all. That might be a

well, that mimics the feedback i would get from any keyboard. barring
the keys with the tiny raised bumps on them, there is nothing to
indicate a given key has been located. but the 'click' as the key
moves down tells me that i have pressed it hard enough to register,
and the vibration could replace this on the neo

most users will register the click/vibration quicker than the
character appearing on the screen, particularly those who look at the
keyboard rather than the screen (lots of us)

true, it can't help a key be located (whereas i can feel the edge of
real keys) before it's pressed, but it's still a step better than a
smooth kb with no feedback at all

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