Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 05:27:00PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: > apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. > > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > > i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > > now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything > other than square keys? Made by an idiot, article written by another. A British inventor has submitted a patent application for a wacky touchscreen keyboard design which "inventor"? "patent"? Idiots. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together inverted to each other? Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson > wrote: >> apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. >> >> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ >> >> i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think >> >> now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything >> other than square keys? > > Looks interesting! > > > r > > -- > | risto h. kurppa > | risto at kurppa dot fi > | http://risto.kurppa.fi > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson said: > apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. > > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > > i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less mis-presses) is just wrong. it makes for fewer "presses". you hit the deadspace much more often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit nothing. the kbd just makes no sense. making keys bigger is simply the way to make them more accurate to hit. if that isn't an option an you still do a kbd-style keyboard, then having some sort of guessing algorithm that guesses what you meant to hit is all you have left. doing a non "qwerty" style is the only other way you have a way out as you could have fewer keys, now easier to hit, but you may need to hit them multiple types (normal abc, def, ghi etc. number keypad style), and even here to avoid the multiple hits, you need again a guessing algorithm (t9). :) > now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything > other than square keys? > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:41 AM, neove...@freerunner wrote: > > There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together > inverted to each other? The article says "that each triangular key has significantly more dead space around it than you’d find on a standard Qwerty layout. Consequently, users are more likely to press the correct key each time they tap." IMO, he is just trying to make easy money, he claims that his patented technology is s cool and ask apple to "help" him. meaning : paying to use this. I haven't try to look further, so I may be wrong, maybe triangle key really improve error rate. Mathieu > > > > > Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson > > wrote: > >> apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. > >> > >> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > >> > >> i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > >> > >> now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything > >> other than square keys? > > > > Looks interesting! > > > > > > r > > > > -- > > | risto h. kurppa > > | risto at kurppa dot fi > > | http://risto.kurppa.fi > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3016823.html > Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 09:51:50 +0200 Mathieu Rochette said: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:41 AM, neove...@freerunner wrote: > > > > > There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together > > inverted to each other? > > The article says "that each triangular key has significantly more dead space > around it than you’d find on a standard Qwerty layout. Consequently, users > are more likely to press the correct key each time they tap." > > IMO, he is just trying to make easy money, he claims that his patented > technology is s cool and ask apple to "help" him. meaning : paying to > use this. > > I haven't try to look further, so I may be wrong, maybe triangle key really > improve error rate. agreed - not on a touchscreen. on a physical kbd... maybe, as you are more likely to be able to feel were the key is as you have 2 edges (left and right) closer and more likey to be under 1 fingertip and "feelable". but absolutely not a touchscreen. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson > said: > > > apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. > > > > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > > > > i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > > he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less > mis-presses) > is just wrong. it makes for fewer "presses". you hit the deadspace much > more > often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the > rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is > unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, > but > somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit > nothing. > What you're saying is logical. But I think the idea is that the dead space makes you want to hit the keys more accurately. So the smaller key teaches you how to hit more exactly. I don't know if it's true, but I would rather first try it out than say it's total bullshit. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
> Oh did I say that questioning Qi was spreading FUD and mail congestion? that's how i understood it. > My apologies. I'll rephrase. Criticising features you know nothing about > in a thread about a question you contributed nothing to is spreading FUD > and causing mail congestion. what exactly is your problem? from the information i gathered over time from this list i deduced qi was aimed at reading the kernel from /boot, not from the nand partition. together with "qi does not understand jffs2" i simply infered it would not work with flash at all. turns out, that was wrong. now i see, that indeed qi with flash has at least ... limited usability, because obviously due to jffs2 support (however that is possible, since jffs2 is the first fs of the freerunner) that file appending boot options can not be read. paul answered in a totally inappropriate way and you continue that way down. if all you want to say is "i am great! i loathe you inferior creature" -- you did it. as long you have nothing to contribute in terms of usefull information you can shut up now. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:16:21 +0200 Michal Brzozowski said: > 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler > > > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson > > said: > > > > > apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. > > > > > > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > > > > > > i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > > > > he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less > > mis-presses) > > is just wrong. it makes for fewer "presses". you hit the deadspace much > > more > > often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the > > rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is > > unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, > > but > > somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit > > nothing. > > > > What you're saying is logical. But I think the idea is that the dead space > makes you want to hit the keys more accurately. So the smaller key teaches > you how to hit more exactly. I don't know if it's true, but I would rather > first try it out than say it's total bullshit. u seriously doubt that. mis-pressing keys will also make you want to hi them more accurately too. it applies to both cases. thedifference is that if you are not more accurate u get zero key press as opposed to the one you wanted when its a square. then you aways get a press - the question is - are you so far off that u pressed the wrong key. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Launcher/Home Page (alpha) Release 0.20
Hi to all, In contrast to Warner I really like the scroll bar at the bottom, and I find it not only nice looking, but also very easy to use with one hand. The only problem I found so far is that it scrolls not only horizontally but also vertically. Keep up the good work, C_C! Regards, Mitko 2009/6/3 c_c > > Hi, > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>Yeah, I could contribute some wallpapers - probably under a > CC-Attrib-Share > >>Alike license, if that's acceptable to you... > > > Sure, whatever license that allows users to use them and lets me > distribute them with the launcher. > Actually, I just need a few (maybe 2 or 3). You could look at making a > small > wallpaper ipk that can be downloaded by the user from your site / opkg.org > . > That will give you more freedom and exposure. How about that? > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>And how do you feel about tasteful nudity? :-) > > > Hah! I don't mind it at all. But maybe it would be better to have them as > another ipk - to prevent offending some people. > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>I'm not sure about the scroll bar at the bottom to select the > categories... I agree it's prettier - but it's >also slower to find the > category you want. Before it was always just two clicks, now it can be > 'drag, >drag, drag, click'... > > > As I see it - these are the advantages :- > > * Almost infinite amount of categories > * looks nicer / sexier > > and the disadvantages :- > > * slower > * needs dragging and then a click > * is it just me or the the dragging seems less responsive > * Less Intuitive (maybe just me again) > > I have asked for feedback about the toolbar - but haven't really gotten > much. I'm still not decided one way or the other - but I personally prefer > the combo box / hover drop down - primarily because its faster. > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>also - I can't figure out how to edit the list of category in this > version > - how do I do that? > > > Click on the configuration part of the toolbar (extreme right) and you'll > get the preferences window. > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>Hmm - do you track when and how many times each app is launched? I'd > love to see automatically >populated categories for 'most recent' and 'most > popular' or something like that... > > > I'm not doing that yet - but I'll add it to my TODO. > Thanks for all the feedback. > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/Launcher-Home-Page-%28alpha%29-Release-0.20-tp2969146p3016483.html > Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Tuxbrain offers Neo FreeRunner in three flavors
Dear all , In order to easy development of software and vertical solutions using Neo FreeRunner, we have update our catalog offeing the Neo FreeRunner in tree different versions. Devel Version(A6) at 229 EUR Devel Upgraded Version(A6+) at 259 EUR Retail Version(A7) at 299 EUR A6 and A7 no need presentation ;) A6+ are A6 version with buzz fix applied and gsm firmware upgraded. Best regards -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable & embedded solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, Arduino Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Launcher/Home Page (alpha) Release 0.20
>In contrast to Warner I really like the scroll bar at the bottom, and >I find it not only nice looking, but also very easy to use with one >hand. The only problem I found so far is that it scrolls not only >horizontally but also vertically. yes, i was looking at the same scroll bar used in illume settings and there it doesn't scroll up and down, which might be the reason why the response is so funny... the one hand usage is great. Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Tuxbrain offers Neo FreeRunner in three flavors
2009/6/3 David Reyes Samblas Martinez : > Devel Upgraded Version(A6+) at 259 EUR > Retail Version(A7) at 299 EUR Great news! Are both A6+ and A7 available for shipment right way? Not that it would matter regarding A7, since A6+ is equivalent, but interested if A7 production runs have started now. At least I'll start recommending FreeRunner now to people to whom I've so far said to wait for the buzz-fixed version :) -Timo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Tuxbrain offers Neo FreeRunner in three flavors
2009/6/3 Timo Jyrinki : > 2009/6/3 David Reyes Samblas Martinez : >> Devel Upgraded Version(A6+) at 259 EUR >> Retail Version(A7) at 299 EUR > > Great news! Are both A6+ and A7 available for shipment right way? Not a lot of but I have a few ready to ship, and I of course will import more if I get out of stock. >>Not > that it would matter regarding A7, since A6+ is equivalent, but > interested if A7 production runs have started now. > > At least I'll start recommending FreeRunner now to people to whom I've > so far said to wait for the buzz-fixed version :) > > -Timo > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- David Reyes Samblas Martinez http://www.tuxbrain.com Open ultraportable & embedded solutions Openmoko, Openpandora, Arduino Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Hi apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > thedifference is that if you are > not more accurate u get zero key press as opposed to the one you wanted when > its > a square. then you aways get a press - the question is - are you so far off > that > u pressed the wrong key. exactly. but with this keyboard you can not accidently hit the G when you meant the F, unless you're very drunk. You can ofcourse hit dead space, but that's not so bad, you just tilt your finger until it hits. Ofcourse, dead space should really be dead, no action. To hit both the V and the B, you have to stick a very thick finger right in the middle of dead space. With square keys, you can hardly avoid it. > There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together > inverted to each other? huh ? that would defeat the purpose. > if you simply expanded each key to just fill the > rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is > unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but > somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit > nothing. and equally more likely to hit the wrong one, since that space is filled up too. hitting no key is not so bad. hitting the wrong one is annoying. I believe in it.. oh .. patents ? .. skip .. one good idea lost for humanity. $2c, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together > inverted to each other? I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of the design ;) Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at them without accidentally hitting another. I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are around it and "sort of" hit the right one without mis-hitting another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. Its genius is its simplicity. Joseph 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner : > > There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together > inverted to each other? > > > > Risto H. Kurppa wrote: >> >> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson >> wrote: >>> apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. >>> >>> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ >>> >>> i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think >>> >>> now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything >>> other than square keys? >> >> Looks interesting! >> >> >> r >> >> -- >> | risto h. kurppa >> | risto at kurppa dot fi >> | http://risto.kurppa.fi >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> > > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3016823.html > Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
i'm still undecided... although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key instead of no key On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves wrote: >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together >> inverted to each other? > > I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of the design > ;) > > Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your > monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would > work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that > all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge > area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at > them without accidentally hitting another. > > I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, it's > about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - effectively > you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are around it and > "sort of" hit the right one without mis-hitting another) whilst > keeping the overall size very small. > > Its genius is its simplicity. > > Joseph > > > > > 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner : >> >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines together >> inverted to each other? >> >> >> >> Risto H. Kurppa wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson >>> wrote: apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything other than square keys? >>> >>> Looks interesting! >>> >>> >>> r >>> >>> -- >>> | risto h. kurppa >>> | risto at kurppa dot fi >>> | http://risto.kurppa.fi >>> >>> ___ >>> Openmoko community mailing list >>> community@lists.openmoko.org >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >>> >>> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3016823.html >> Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. >> >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler : > u seriously doubt that. mis-pressing keys will also make you want to hi them > more accurately too. it applies to both cases. thedifference is that if you > are > not more accurate u get zero key press as opposed to the one you wanted when > its > a square. then you aways get a press - the question is - are you so far off > that > u pressed the wrong key. raster, is it possible to create triangular keys for your keyboard? how difficult would it be for someone to put this together, to test out what he's saying? if he can't get anyone interested, maybe he'd waive a patent suit in our case, in exchange for it being a demo for his technology? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other keys while doing that. -- Marcel Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 13:53:46 schrieb Yorick Moko: > i'm still undecided... > although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key instead > of no key > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves wrote: > >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines > >> together inverted to each other? > > > > I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of > > the design ;) > > > > Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your > > monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would > > work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that > > all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge > > area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at > > them without accidentally hitting another. > > > > I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, > > it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - > > effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are > > around it and "sort of" hit the right one without mis-hitting > > another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. > > > > Its genius is its simplicity. > > > > Joseph > > > > 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner : > >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines > >> together inverted to each other? > >> > >> Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson > >>> > >>> > >>> wrote: > apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. > > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > > i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > > now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using > anything other than square keys? > >>> > >>> Looks interesting! > >>> > >>> > >>> r > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >>> | risto h. kurppa > >>> | risto at kurppa dot fi > >>> | http://risto.kurppa.fi > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> Openmoko community mailing list > >>> community@lists.openmoko.org > >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > >> > >> -- > >> View this message in context: > >> http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473 > >>p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive > >> at Nabble.com. > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> Openmoko community mailing list > >> community@lists.openmoko.org > >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Marcel wrote: > I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just > works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually > dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to > backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other > keys while doing that. > with illume keyboard, if you use the dictionary mode, pressing another key is not that annoying. it is for other mode but the preview key (the key gone up when you press it) give you good feedback about which key your in and you can move your finger to correct if needed. unless his keyboard print the key on finger press (instead of finger up), you can not see if you hit a dead space or a key and so you can't move your finger to correct it, you have to make another try. > > -- > Marcel > > Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 13:53:46 schrieb Yorick Moko: > > i'm still undecided... > > although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key instead > > of no key > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves > wrote: > > >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines > > >> together inverted to each other? > > > > > > I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea of > > > the design ;) > > > > > > Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing your > > > monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how it would > > > work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. The fact that > > > all the triangles are orientated the same way means you get a huge > > > area of triangular free space around each key, that lets you mash at > > > them without accidentally hitting another. > > > > > > I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, > > > it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - > > > effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any are > > > around it and "sort of" hit the right one without mis-hitting > > > another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. > > > > > > Its genius is its simplicity. > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner : > > >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines > > >> together inverted to each other? > > >> > > >> Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > > >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> wrote: > > apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. > > > > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > > > > i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > > > > now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using > > anything other than square keys? > > >>> > > >>> Looks interesting! > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> r > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> > > >>> | risto h. kurppa > > >>> | risto at kurppa dot fi > > >>> | http://risto.kurppa.fi > > >>> > > >>> ___ > > >>> Openmoko community mailing list > > >>> community@lists.openmoko.org > > >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > >> > > >> -- > > >> View this message in context: > > >> http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473 > > >>p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive > > >> at Nabble.com. > > >> > > >> > > >> ___ > > >> Openmoko community mailing list > > >> community@lists.openmoko.org > > >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > ___ > > > Openmoko community mailing list > > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
But dict mode is useless for me if I want to write in german, and I didn't bother to find a german dict yet because they mostly don't contain slang anyway. This hold-until-magnifier-pops-up thing isn't too helpful because it takes ages to type something up with that. Hitting a key twice because the first hit wasn't exact is faster. -- Marcel Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 14:14:40 schrieb Mathieu Rochette: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Marcel wrote: > > I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it > > just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting > > actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and > > having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally > > pressing other keys while doing that. > > with illume keyboard, if you use the dictionary mode, pressing another > key is not that annoying. > it is for other mode but the preview key (the key gone up when you > press it) give you good feedback about which key your in and you can > move your finger to correct if needed. > unless his keyboard print the key on finger press (instead of finger > up), you can not see if you hit a dead space or a key and so you can't > move your finger to correct it, you have to make another try. > > > -- > > Marcel > > > > Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 13:53:46 schrieb Yorick Moko: > > > i'm still undecided... > > > although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key > > > instead of no key > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves > > > > > > > wrote: > > > >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines > > > >> together inverted to each other? > > > > > > > > I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea > > > > of the design ;) > > > > > > > > Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing > > > > your monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how > > > > it would work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. > > > > The fact that all the triangles are orientated the same way means > > > > you get a huge area of triangular free space around each key, > > > > that lets you mash at them without accidentally hitting another. > > > > > > > > I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, > > > > it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - > > > > effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any > > > > are around it and "sort of" hit the right one without mis-hitting > > > > another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. > > > > > > > > Its genius is its simplicity. > > > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > > > 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner : > > > >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines > > > >> together inverted to each other? > > > >> > > > >> Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > > > >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> wrote: > > > apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. > > > > > > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > > > > > > i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > > > > > > now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using > > > anything other than square keys? > > > >>> > > > >>> Looks interesting! > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> r > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> > > > >>> | risto h. kurppa > > > >>> | risto at kurppa dot fi > > > >>> | http://risto.kurppa.fi > > > >>> > > > >>> ___ > > > >>> Openmoko community mailing list > > > >>> community@lists.openmoko.org > > > >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> View this message in context: > > > >> http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp301 > > > >>6473 p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list > > > >> archive at Nabble.com. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ___ > > > >> Openmoko community mailing list > > > >> community@lists.openmoko.org > > > >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > > > ___ > > > > Openmoko community mailing list > > > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > > > ___ > > > Openmoko community mailing list > > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
[neovento-5.6] Modifying the keyboard
Hi; I am finding a lot of improvements in this latest version; and I have not been able to try a lot of them, due to lack of time. however I have changed the keyboard (attached). The main reason was that some keys were not there. Especially some that I needed. e.g. backslash I now have on it all the keys on my normal keyboard I think. I have tried to arrange them with some logic, mainly that on the "123" page are most of the things I want to write on the computer terminal. The third collection is not well arranged and has plenty of empty slots. I think the european language characters and some others will fit well there. I have found a few. the sources I am using for characters are: http://www.webmonkey.com/reference/Special_Characters and http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/entities.html#h-24.2.1 Does anyone know how I could make a "numbers lock" which would keep the "123" page in place while it was being used? It is possible, but annoying to have to hit "123" before every number. I hoped to put that function just above the "123" key. thank you, clare ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Marcel wrote: > But dict mode is useless for me if I want to write in german, and I didn't > bother to find a german dict yet because they mostly don't contain slang > anyway. This hold-until-magnifier-pops-up thing isn't too helpful because > it takes ages to type something up with that. Hitting a key twice because > the first hit wasn't exact is faster.^ I wasn't talking about the big magnifier, just the small in top of the finger. let pi the probability you miss a key with illume keyboard, pt the probability you miss a key with triangle keyboard, ki the time to press a key with illume, kt the time to press a key with triangle, ei the time to cancel an error with illume, et the time to cancel an error with triangle. et = 0 and ei = ki the average time to type the correct key is: t(p, k, e) = k + Sum (i = [1, +inf], (k+e)*pi^i) ti = t(pi, ki, ei) tt = t(pt, kt, 0) et = 0 and ei = ki the remaining maths are left as an exercise for the reader (I'm at work now and I don't remember how to do that) :p -- > Marcel > > Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 14:14:40 schrieb Mathieu Rochette: > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:07 PM, Marcel wrote: > > > I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it > > > just works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting > > > actually dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and > > > having to backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally > > > pressing other keys while doing that. > > > > with illume keyboard, if you use the dictionary mode, pressing another > > key is not that annoying. > > it is for other mode but the preview key (the key gone up when you > > press it) give you good feedback about which key your in and you can > > move your finger to correct if needed. > > unless his keyboard print the key on finger press (instead of finger > > up), you can not see if you hit a dead space or a key and so you can't > > move your finger to correct it, you have to make another try. > > > > > -- > > > Marcel > > > > > > Am Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009 13:53:46 schrieb Yorick Moko: > > > > i'm still undecided... > > > > although i agree it is far more annoying to hit the wrong key > > > > instead of no key > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM, Joseph Reeves > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines > > > > >> together inverted to each other? > > > > > > > > > > I think the fact that it's not like you describe the whole idea > > > > > of the design ;) > > > > > > > > > > Go to the page on El Reg and try and type your name by pushing > > > > > your monitor. It's stupid, yes, but it gives you an idea of how > > > > > it would work. It seems, without any feedback, to be very nice. > > > > > The fact that all the triangles are orientated the same way means > > > > > you get a huge area of triangular free space around each key, > > > > > that lets you mash at them without accidentally hitting another. > > > > > > > > > > I don't think it's about training your hands as others have said, > > > > > it's about providing a key with a lot of free space around it - > > > > > effectively you've made the key bigger (because you can hit any > > > > > are around it and "sort of" hit the right one without mis-hitting > > > > > another) whilst keeping the overall size very small. > > > > > > > > > > Its genius is its simplicity. > > > > > > > > > > Joseph > > > > > > > > > > 2009/6/3 neove...@freerunner : > > > > >> There is lots of space wasted. Why hasn't he put the key lines > > > > >> together inverted to each other? > > > > >> > > > > >> Risto H. Kurppa wrote: > > > > >>> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 8:27 AM, Robin Paulson > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. > > > > > > > > http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ > > > > > > > > i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > > > > > > > > now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using > > > > anything other than square keys? > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Looks interesting! > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> r > > > > >>> > > > > >>> -- > > > > >>> > > > > >>> | risto h. kurppa > > > > >>> | risto at kurppa dot fi > > > > >>> | http://risto.kurppa.fi > > > > >>> > > > > >>> ___ > > > > >>> Openmoko community mailing list > > > > >>> community@lists.openmoko.org > > > > >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > > > >> > > > > >> -- > > > > >> View this message in context: > > > > >> http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp301 > > > > >>6473 p3016823.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list > > > > >> archive at Nabble.com. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> ___ > > > > >> Openmoko community mailing list > > > > >> co
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:07:07 +0200 Marcel said: > I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just > works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually > dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to > backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other > keys while doing that. but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 00:01:18 +1200 Robin Paulson said: > 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler : > > u seriously doubt that. mis-pressing keys will also make you want to hi them > > more accurately too. it applies to both cases. thedifference is that if you > > are not more accurate u get zero key press as opposed to the one you wanted > > when its a square. then you aways get a press - the question is - are you > > so far off that u pressed the wrong key. > > raster, is it possible to create triangular keys for your keyboard? yes. just draw triangular buttons and have transparency where you dont want them hit (on the image), use the image as he hit area and add: precise_is_inside: 1; so the part (alone with scale, type, name etc.). this basically makes evas use the actual pixel alpha to determine if a point is inside the image or not, as opposed to just is bounding region (which is normal). nb - NEVER tested this before... > how difficult would it be for someone to put this together, to test > out what he's saying? > > if he can't get anyone interested, maybe he'd waive a patent suit in > our case, in exchange for it being a demo for his technology? that's up to him, but, since i know it's patented now - i am not touching it. willfully violating a patent with knowledge is much nastier than accidentally violating one you dont know about. > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 03:43:42PM +0200, Mathieu Rochette wrote: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Marcel wrote: > > > But dict mode is useless for me if I want to write in german, and I didn't > > bother to find a german dict yet because they mostly don't contain slang > > anyway. Just edit them, and add: slang N Where slang is the slang you want and N is the frequency (the higher, the most likely to show up in the list). The keyboard with a good dictionary is awesome... I hated it too, but with a (nearly) million portuguese words dict it is very rare indeed that I need to type character by character. My main problem is actually that sometimes it gets stuck calculating the word list for a bit longer. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: [neovento-5.6] Modifying the keyboard
Hi Clare, thanks for your efforts :) The next neovento version will include a small configuration program which will allow you to switch between the keyboard layouts. The numpad issue is something we could not solve. With the most recent matchbox keyboard you could use different layouts on one keyboard, but we couldn't figure out how. Maybe someone knows the answer how to use different layouts on the mbk. With that feature this would be the best keyboard available on the FR regarding usability. clare johnstone wrote: > > Hi; > I am finding a lot of improvements in this latest version; and I have > not been able to try a lot of them, due to lack of time. however I > have changed the keyboard (attached). The main reason was that some > keys were not there. Especially some that I needed. e.g. backslash I > now have on it all the keys on my normal keyboard I think. I have > tried to arrange them with some logic, mainly that on the "123" page > are most of the things I want to write on the computer terminal. The > third collection is not well arranged and has plenty of empty slots. I > think the european language characters and some others will fit well > there. I have found a few. > the sources I am using for characters are: > http://www.webmonkey.com/reference/Special_Characters > and > http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/entities.html#h-24.2.1 > > Does anyone know how I could make a "numbers lock" which would keep > the "123" page in place while it was being used? It is possible, but > annoying to have to hit "123" before every number. I hoped to put that > function just above the "123" key. > > thank you, > clare > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/-neovento-5.6--Modifying-the-keyboard-tp3018214p3018566.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler > but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key > you > intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now > dead > space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u > have > more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% > of he > area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where > you > would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). > > so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost > mis-hit > area too. > > one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then > notice > that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter > again > (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind > I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually trying it. Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the keys or something. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
What about first building a decent keyboard with normal keys and then dream about triangular keys glory? Such a triangular keyboard uses lots of space, maybe twice the space of a normal keyboard. That's certainly not useful on the small freerunner screen which is also cramped by the casing frame. It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent keyboard for the freerunner within one year. Is there even any attempt to make one? rusolis wrote: > > 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler > >> but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual >> key >> you >> intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is >> now >> dead >> space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as >> u >> have >> more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% >> of he >> area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now >> where >> you >> would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). >> >> so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost >> mis-hit >> area too. >> >> one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then >> notice >> that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter >> again >> (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another >> kind >> > > I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually > trying it. > > Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea > if > we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the > keys or something. > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/a-new-keyboard---discuss-and-critique-tp3016473p3019034.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 05:10:49PM +0200, Michal Brzozowski wrote: > 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler > I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually > trying it. > > Is it because of allergy to patents? No, it's the general allergy to being sued for willingful patent infringement. > I bet we could use the general idea if > we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the > keys or something. It is not at all impossible that if a patent is granted, any touchscreen keyboard may be infringing on it. Rui ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:10:49 +0200 Michal Brzozowski said: > I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually > trying it. i theorize because hat's what i've done for decades doing code, ui etc. i sit and think about how something will work months or years before i do it. that's how i figure out how to make something that could be fast in what it does - by theorizing on usage patterns, internal data and logic flow etc.etc. months or years before it ever actually works (and then smile as all the thinking paid off). > Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if > we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the > keys or something. patents are an area which could literally wipe out my entire life's savings if taken to court, shown to willfully infringe. you need to check up on patent law and the sonsequences. if you willfully infringe (KNOW something is patented and then use it anyway), you don't have a leg to stand on in a court. maybe you have nothing to lose - i definitely do and won't touch something i KNOW is patented. better never tell me it's patented - then at least i have a leg to stand on. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 08:40:43 -0700 (PDT) "neove...@freerunner" said: > > What about first building a decent keyboard with normal keys and then dream > about triangular keys glory? > > Such a triangular keyboard uses lots of space, maybe twice the space of a > normal keyboard. That's certainly not useful on the small freerunner screen > which is also cramped by the casing frame. > > It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent keyboard > for the freerunner within one year. Is there even any attempt to make one? well people will disagree - qtopia's predictive kbd and illume's do a damn good job given the tiny screen space. ask peolpe who actually use it (and if you dont use english - find a dict for your language). sure - it wont help with shell commands or coding, but in the end you have a TINY screen. i know i complain about my laptop kbd - and it's a 15" device. the kbd is a bit small for doing real code. i have a 10" sony viao x505 - thats pretty much impossible to do real code on. now a 2.8" screen - which you ALSO want to use for displaying stuff... let's get real. you will never have a god kbd for such things. at best u'll have one for pidgeon-pecking out some shortish sms's. be realistic. just because i open and runs linux doesnt mean it can be the be-all and do-all of your computing life. there's more to such devices than just software - like good hardware, good industrial design etc. etc. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
illume keyboard force on/off
hi, i have some really annoying troubles with the illume keyboard. it doesn't remember i have made it show once i switch windows and this gets really annoying. is there a way for it to remember it's state for a window? imagine a typical situation - retyping from one window to another: open terminal, reach up, get keyboard, type open web browser, reach up, get keyboard, type read up some stuff switch back to terminal - keyboard is off, go up, get keyboard, type switch to browser, read up some more switch back to terminal - keyboard is off, go up, get keyboard, type thanks for any hints... Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
A bit off topic, but what about generating a dictionary out of: * Sent and received sms's. I want to dict that is a mix between, english, norwegian and spanish * add the $PATH to the dict, so it's at easy to write small commands in the terminal. -fredrik- ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Launcher/Home Page (alpha) Release 0.20
Makes sense - I'll try to come up with a few in the next couple of days. I guess drop 'em in a directory like /usr/share/wallpapers? then you can make that the default folder to browse in your prefs UI? For the category picker - how much work would it be to maintain both modes and let the user pick in the prefs? And for editing the categories - I found the 'configure' button at the far right - but I don't see how to add or remove categories from there - I was able to assign apps to certain categories, but not edit the list of categories. Warren On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:30 AM, c_c wrote: > > Hi, > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>Yeah, I could contribute some wallpapers - probably under a > CC-Attrib-Share > >>Alike license, if that's acceptable to you... > > > Sure, whatever license that allows users to use them and lets me > distribute them with the launcher. > Actually, I just need a few (maybe 2 or 3). You could look at making a > small > wallpaper ipk that can be downloaded by the user from your site / opkg.org > . > That will give you more freedom and exposure. How about that? > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>And how do you feel about tasteful nudity? :-) > > > Hah! I don't mind it at all. But maybe it would be better to have them as > another ipk - to prevent offending some people. > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>I'm not sure about the scroll bar at the bottom to select the > categories... I agree it's prettier - but it's >also slower to find the > category you want. Before it was always just two clicks, now it can be > 'drag, >drag, drag, click'... > > > As I see it - these are the advantages :- > > * Almost infinite amount of categories > * looks nicer / sexier > > and the disadvantages :- > > * slower > * needs dragging and then a click > * is it just me or the the dragging seems less responsive > * Less Intuitive (maybe just me again) > > I have asked for feedback about the toolbar - but haven't really gotten > much. I'm still not decided one way or the other - but I personally prefer > the combo box / hover drop down - primarily because its faster. > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>also - I can't figure out how to edit the list of category in this > version > - how do I do that? > > > Click on the configuration part of the toolbar (extreme right) and you'll > get the preferences window. > > Warren Baird-2 wrote: > > > >>Hmm - do you track when and how many times each app is launched? I'd > love to see automatically >populated categories for 'most recent' and 'most > popular' or something like that... > > > I'm not doing that yet - but I'll add it to my TODO. > Thanks for all the feedback. > -- > View this message in context: > http://n2.nabble.com/Launcher-Home-Page-%28alpha%29-Release-0.20-tp2969146p3016483.html > Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- Warren Baird - Photographer and Digital Artist http://www.synergisticimages.ca ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Hi all Another idea to use the triangles but without dead spaces (so compatible with small screen) What about alternate orientations for each key, a bit like this: /q\w/e\r/t\y/... This way you have more space in the top on w, r and y, and more space on the bottom for q, e and t. I mean more space compared to the squared keys like this : |q|w|e|r|t|y| Has anyone tried it yet ? I have the feeling it would ROCK ^ ^ Kimaidou t, so it's at easy to write small commands in the terminal. > > -fredrik- > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wednesday 03 June 2009, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 03:43:42PM +0200, Mathieu Rochette wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Marcel wrote: > > > But dict mode is useless for me if I want to write in german, and I > > > didn't bother to find a german dict yet because they mostly don't > > > contain slang anyway. > > Just edit them, and add: > > slang N > > Where slang is the slang you want and N is the frequency (the higher, the > most likely to show up in the list). Or just type it accurately once and accept it, then it gets added to the user dictionary for future use. As you use it the frequency gets updated, so the dictionary matches adapt to the words you tend to use. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:39:08 -0300 fredrik normann said: > A bit off topic, but what about generating a dictionary out of: > > * Sent and received sms's. I want to dict that is a mix between, english, > norwegian and spanish > * add the $PATH to the dict, so it's at easy to write small commands in the > terminal. go for it. that is why i made the dic format so simple - i paid a big price in compute overhead to use that dict. -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
I Wonder if you actually need to implement a visual triangle or if a triangular touch area would work just as well? And I wonder how tighly the patent is written around the concept of a triangle.. Perhaps shave off a tiny prtion of the tip of the triangle and you have a parallelogram... hmm just a tiny portion.. say a two pixel wide section hmmm Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: > On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 05:27:00PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote: >> apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. >> >> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ >> >> i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think >> >> now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything >> other than square keys? > > Made by an idiot, article written by another. > > > A British inventor has submitted a patent application for a > wacky touchscreen keyboard design which > > "inventor"? "patent"? > > Idiots. > > Rui > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Perhaps he thinks by presenting the keyboard in that way you will be "more careful" in where you tap your finger.. Worth a test.. but in theory I agree with you.. more dead space = more failed keypresses.."im touching put nothing is happening... Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson > said: > >> apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors. >> >> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/ >> >> i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think > > he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less mis-presses) > is just wrong. it makes for fewer "presses". you hit the deadspace much more > often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the > rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is > unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but > somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit > nothing. > > the kbd just makes no sense. making keys bigger is simply the way to make them > more accurate to hit. if that isn't an option an you still do a kbd-style > keyboard, then having some sort of guessing algorithm that guesses what you > meant to hit is all you have left. > > doing a non "qwerty" style is the only other way you have a way out as you > could have fewer keys, now easier to hit, but you may need to hit them > multiple > types (normal abc, def, ghi etc. number keypad style), and even here to avoid > the multiple hits, you need again a guessing algorithm (t9). :) > >> now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything >> other than square keys? >> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Launcher/Home Page (alpha) Release 0.20
On Wednesday 03 June 2009 12:02:46 Petr Vanek wrote: > >In contrast to Warner I really like the scroll bar at the bottom, and > >I find it not only nice looking, but also very easy to use with one > >hand. The only problem I found so far is that it scrolls not only > >horizontally but also vertically. > > yes, i was looking at the same scroll bar used in illume settings and > there it doesn't scroll up and down, which might be the reason why the > response is so funny... > Yes, thats true... The toolbar in illume's settings is easier to use because it doesn't scroll horizontally. I've noticed this in other apps too. All lists scoll slower if the smooth-bounce-back-at-end feature is enabled. Altough it looks very nice, it may be too heavy for the freerunners hardware. But, this also seems to be a common problem of elementary. For example look at Neon. It scrolls really smooth. I have no idea what toolkit they use, though... Apart from this I'd vote for the toolbar and against the dropdown list. Thanks c_c! Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Hi > It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent keyboard > for the freerunner within one year. I did try the list of keyboards last year and couldnt live with them. But the current one - shipping with om2009 - is pretty good. Even with fingers. So, there's been progress.. What keyboard is it anyway ? Is it listed here http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate ? thanks, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Tuxbrain offers Neo FreeRunner in three flavors
A7 is sitting at the factory waiting for orders Timo Jyrinki wrote: > 2009/6/3 David Reyes Samblas Martinez : >> Devel Upgraded Version(A6+) at 259 EUR >> Retail Version(A7) at 299 EUR > > Great news! Are both A6+ and A7 available for shipment right way? Not > that it would matter regarding A7, since A6+ is equivalent, but > interested if A7 production runs have started now. > > At least I'll start recommending FreeRunner now to people to whom I've > so far said to wait for the buzz-fixed version :) > > -Timo > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
hummm... no reaction to my /q\w/e\r/t\y/ idea ;) ? 2009/6/3 pike > Hi > > It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent > keyboard > > for the freerunner within one year. > > I did try the list of keyboards last year > and couldnt live with them. But the current one - shipping > with om2009 - is pretty good. Even with fingers. > So, there's been progress.. > > What keyboard is it anyway ? Is it listed here > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate ? > > thanks, > *-pike > > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
2009/6/3 Steve Mosher > Perhaps he thinks by presenting the keyboard in that way you will be > "more careful" in where you tap your finger.. > > Worth a test.. but in theory I agree with you.. more dead space = more > failed keypresses.."im touching put nothing is happening... > If raster is right that dead space is bad, then maybe just use triangular images for keys? If you subconsciously try to hit the triangle instead of square maybe you'll miss less often. OT: how are software patents standing now in European Union? ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Launcher/Home Page (alpha) Release 0.20
On Wednesday 03 June 2009 19:49:01 Michael Zanetti wrote: > On Wednesday 03 June 2009 12:02:46 Petr Vanek wrote: > > >In contrast to Warner I really like the scroll bar at the bottom, and > > >I find it not only nice looking, but also very easy to use with one > > >hand. The only problem I found so far is that it scrolls not only > > >horizontally but also vertically. > > > > yes, i was looking at the same scroll bar used in illume settings and > > there it doesn't scroll up and down, which might be the reason why the > > response is so funny... > > Yes, thats true... The toolbar in illume's settings is easier to use > because it doesn't scroll horizontally. Sorry, of course I meant vertically... > > I've noticed this in other apps too. All lists scoll slower if the > smooth-bounce-back-at-end feature is enabled. Altough it looks very nice, > it may be too heavy for the freerunners hardware. > > But, this also seems to be a common problem of elementary. For example look > at Neon. It scrolls really smooth. I have no idea what toolkit they use, > though... > > Apart from this I'd vote for the toolbar and against the dropdown list. > > Thanks c_c! > > Michael > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
yes, you substitute one error for the other. the issue is the probablity of those errors and the time to correct.. no harm in testing the approach, if somebody has time on their hands Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:07:07 +0200 Marcel said: > >> I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just >> works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually >> dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to >> backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other >> keys while doing that. > > but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you > intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now > dead > space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u > have > more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of > he > area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you > would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). > > so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost > mis-hit > area too. > > one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice > that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter > again > (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable theory, I think. Michal Brzozowski wrote: > 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler > >> but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key >> you >> intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now >> dead >> space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u >> have >> more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% >> of he >> area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where >> you >> would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). >> >> so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost >> mis-hit >> area too. >> >> one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then >> notice >> that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter >> again >> (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind >> > > I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually > trying it. > > Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if > we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the > keys or something. > > > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Sean, thanks for the update ! It is unfortunate that Openmoko Inc. cannot presently continue to lead the development of the open phone. But then, many a great undertaking has required more than one effort before reaching its goal. Anything that brings us closer to that goal is a success in itself, and the value of previous achievements is often only appreciated in the light of the final result. I'm very glad that Openmoko Inc. has not only brought the vision of the ubiquituous open phone this much closer to its realization, but that you are also willing to help us to ease the transition from a project centered around a single company to a true community effort. In the name of the gta02-core project, I'm particularly grateful to you and the board for supporting this effort with further material and components. This will be critical for enabling us to open up the engineering process with our moderate resources. Alright, I think we all have a lot of work lined up for the future. I hope we'll all have the opportunity to envy each other's before too long ! :-) - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:10:49 +0200 Michal Brzozowski said: > > >> I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually >> trying it. > > i theorize because hat's what i've done for decades doing code, ui etc. i sit > and think about how something will work months or years before i do it. that's > how i figure out how to make something that could be fast in what it does - by > theorizing on usage patterns, internal data and logic flow etc.etc. months or > years before it ever actually works (and then smile as all the thinking paid > off). > >> Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if >> we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the >> keys or something. > > patents are an area which could literally wipe out my entire life's savings if > taken to court, shown to willfully infringe. you need to check up on patent > law and the sonsequences. if you willfully infringe (KNOW something is > patented and then use it anyway), you don't have a leg to stand on in a court. > maybe you have nothing to lose - i definitely do and won't touch something i > KNOW is patented. better never tell me it's patented - then at least i have a > leg to stand on. yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit. hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents (company forced me to), wanna read them? > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mailing list glitch?
Doug Jones wrote: > Has this bug been there all along? Does our community's collective > memory have a hole in it? Seems that it chopped the mail at the line beginning with "From". Not sure where the rest ended up ... - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:13:12 -0700 Steve Mosher said: > yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at > patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit. oh indeed. the only way to go is plead ignorance. if it comes to court without a cease and desist you will very likely get off (with then just a cease and desist) unless they can prove you willfully infringed - i.e. - you knew about the patent beforehand or at any time up to and beyond actually shipping/distributing product. you couldn't sanely be successfully sued for infringing a patent you never knew about. but... if you did. woe betide ye! :) so as you say steve - a real life example there in a real commercial setting. its better to be utterly ignorant and hope for the best. it may be you infringe on patents and the holders just dont care, thus will not sue. :) > hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents > (company forced me to), wanna read them? NO! never! i shall poke my eyes out first and fill my ears with cement! :) /me heads back to his safe patent ignorance zone :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:08:51 -0700 Steve Mosher said: indeed. i believe "its not worth bothering". so i am not going to invest any time into trying it (to try it i'd have to build it... and that will use time) as my theorising says to me "it wont help". if someone else who thinks it really is the bees knees... then build it, try it, test it and prove it! get a non-biased 3rd party to go use the kbd to enter common input or a phone (emails, sms's, etc.) and then time over maybe 50 specific messages how long it takes to get a 100% accurate entry of it. of course make the test unbiased by swapping which kbd they use first t enter in each test (first test kbd a then b, in test 2, b then a etc.). if you really think this kbd (on a touchscreen) is the bees knees - prove it! :) > before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to > collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable > theory, I think. > > Michal Brzozowski wrote: > > 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler > > > >> but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key > >> you > >> intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now > >> dead > >> space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u > >> have > >> more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% > >> of he > >> area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where > >> you > >> would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). > >> > >> so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost > >> mis-hit > >> area too. > >> > >> one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then > >> notice > >> that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter > >> again > >> (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind > >> > > > > I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually > > trying it. > > > > Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if > > we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the > > keys or something. > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Openmoko community mailing list > > community@lists.openmoko.org > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 10:43:29 -0700 Steve Mosher said: > I Wonder if you actually need to implement a visual triangle or if a > triangular touch area would work just as well? > > And I wonder how tighly the patent is written around the concept of a > triangle.. Perhaps shave off a tiny prtion of the tip of the triangle > and you have a parallelogram... hmm just a tiny portion.. say a two > pixel wide section i wonder what a judge/jury would say to such technical "bypassing"? :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:05:12 -0700 Steve Mosher said: indeed. if there is a lot of deadspace where no hit happens its then even harder for a corrective algo + dict to work as often u will tap and nothing happens (it happens often enough on the gta02if you use a finger. using fingernails or stylus is better, but the ts isnt very sensitive) > yes, you substitute one error for the other. the issue is the probablity > of those errors and the time to correct.. > > no harm in testing the approach, if somebody has time on their hands > > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:07:07 +0200 Marcel said: > > > >> I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just > >> works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually > >> dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to > >> backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other > >> keys while doing that. > > > > but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key > > you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is > > now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile > > feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you > > do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for > > mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to > > hit too). > > > > so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost > > mis-hit area too. > > > > one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice > > that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter > > again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for > > another kind > > > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:58:57 +0200 Michal Brzozowski said: > 2009/6/3 Steve Mosher > > > Perhaps he thinks by presenting the keyboard in that way you will be > > "more careful" in where you tap your finger.. > > > > Worth a test.. but in theory I agree with you.. more dead space = more > > failed keypresses.."im touching put nothing is happening... > > > > > If raster is right that dead space is bad, then maybe just use triangular > images for keys? If you subconsciously try to hit the triangle instead of > square maybe you'll miss less often. > > OT: how are software patents standing now in European Union? somehow i dont think this works for a finger - the finger is so big compared to the keys (3-4x the diameter) i don't thin this works. with a stylus though i would agree, but when u have a stylus - u can be quite accurate and hit the key you want regardless of shape! :) -- - Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:13:12 -0700 Steve Mosher said: > > >> yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at >> patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit. >> > > oh indeed. the only way to go is plead ignorance. if it comes to court without > a cease and desist you will very likely get off (with then just a cease and > desist) unless they can prove you willfully infringed - i.e. - you knew about > the patent beforehand or at any time up to and beyond actually > shipping/distributing product. you couldn't sanely be successfully sued for > infringing a patent you never knew about. but... if you did. woe betide ye! :) > so as you say steve - a real life example there in a real commercial setting. > its better to be utterly ignorant and hope for the best. it may be you > infringe > on patents and the holders just dont care, thus will not sue. :) > > >> hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents >> (company forced me to), wanna read them? >> > > NO! never! i shall poke my eyes out first and fill my ears > with cement! :) > > /me heads back to his safe patent ignorance zone :) > haha.. your gunna go to some anonymous internet cafe and look it up now. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
yep. you have to vary a whole host of test conditions. Subjects: those with touch screen experience: those without Order of presentation: Size of subjects finger How they type..for me I've always struggled between being a thumb typer and and index finger typer.. neither works for me very well since I have big fingers, bad eyes, and shakes from drinking too much coffee on the accuracy and time one might find that certain content (say SMS) might do better with one format as opposed to another..who knows? Could waste a whole summer doing a test like that. Long ago raster I actually did test design for UIs in fighter aircraft. nasty business. fun if you get paid for it, but not how i'd spend my free time. So I aint volunteering. Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:08:51 -0700 Steve Mosher said: > > indeed. i believe "its not worth bothering". so i am not going to invest any > time into trying it (to try it i'd have to build it... and that will use time) > as my theorising says to me "it wont help". if someone else who thinks it > really is the bees knees... then build it, try it, test it and prove it! get a > non-biased 3rd party to go use the kbd to enter common input or a phone > (emails, > sms's, etc.) and then time over maybe 50 specific messages how long it takes > to > get a 100% accurate entry of it. of course make the test unbiased by swapping > which kbd they use first t enter in each test (first test kbd a then b, in > test > 2, b then a etc.). > > if you really think this kbd (on a touchscreen) is the bees knees - prove it! > :) > > >> before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to >> collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable >> theory, I think. >> >> Michal Brzozowski wrote: >> >>> 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler >>> >>> but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now dead space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u have more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of he area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly for mis-types now where you would have hit another key there is less area to hit too). so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost mis-hit area too. one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter again (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind >>> I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually >>> trying it. >>> >>> Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if >>> we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the >>> keys or something. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Openmoko community mailing list >>> community@lists.openmoko.org >>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >>> >> ___ >> Openmoko community mailing list >> community@lists.openmoko.org >> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community >> >> > > > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Mailing list glitch?
On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 03:21:26PM -0300, Werner Almesberger wrote: > Doug Jones wrote: > > Has this bug been there all along? Does our community's collective > > memory have a hole in it? > > Seems that it chopped the mail at the line beginning with "From". > Not sure where the rest ended up ... It looks like the mailman/pipermail parser is somewhat broken and considers every line starting with "^From " as the beginning of a new mail (envelope-from). This is really weird, one would expect this kind of bug in the UUCP days of the early 1990ies but not in 2009. -- - Harald Weltehttp://laforge.gnumonks.org/ "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Thanks for your update, Sean! It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks). I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can. Regards and thank you once again, Harald -- - Harald Weltehttp://laforge.gnumonks.org/ "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6) ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Launcher/Home Page (alpha) Release 0.20
On Wednesday 03 June 2009 12:02:46 Petr Vanek wrote: > >In contrast to Warner I really like the scroll bar at the bottom, and > >I find it not only nice looking, but also very easy to use with one > >hand. The only problem I found so far is that it scrolls not only > >horizontally but also vertically. > > yes, i was looking at the same scroll bar used in illume settings and > there it doesn't scroll up and down, which might be the reason why the > response is so funny... > I have also noticed that the toolbar uses resizes all entries according to the longest name. Perhaps it would be worth a try to rename "Uncategorized" into "Others" to make way to scroll shorter. Cheers, Michael ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
On Wednesday 03 June 2009, pike wrote: > Hi > > > It's sad that this community couldn't even manage to build a decent > > keyboard for the freerunner within one year. > > I did try the list of keyboards last year > and couldnt live with them. But the current one - shipping > with om2009 - is pretty good. Even with fingers. > So, there's been progress.. > > What keyboard is it anyway ? Is it listed here > http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate ? It's the Illume one. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique
Hi >> But the current one - shipping >> with om2009 - is pretty good. .. >> What keyboard is it anyway ? Is it listed here >> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Keyboard_Debate ? > > It's the Illume one. It's Rasters ? Good job. It works. thanks, *-pike ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Launcher/Home Page (alpha) Release 0.20
Hi, OpenMitko wrote: > >>The only problem I found so far is that it scrolls not only horizontally but also >>vertically. > Can't seem to change that from 'C'. Any ideas elementary gurus ? Warren Baird-2 wrote: > >>Makes sense - I'll try to come up with a few in the next couple of days. I guess >>drop 'em in a directory like /usr/share/wallpapers? then you can make that the >>default folder to browse in your prefs UI? > Yes. That should be fine. I'll use /usr/share/wallpapers as the default directory in the prefs UI. Warren Baird-2 wrote: > >>For the category picker - how much work would it be to maintain both modes and let the user pick in >the prefs? > Not sure. I guess the initial work will be a bit. Thereafter, hopefully, no constant changes should be required to that part. I'll start work and see how far I can take it. Warren Baird-2 wrote: > >>I don't see how to add or remove categories from there - I was able to assign apps to certain >categories, but not edit the list of categories. > Missed that. The new version should resolve the regression. Michael Zanetti wrote: > >>The toolbar in illume's settings is easier to use because it doesn't scroll vertically. > I know. But I don't know how to stop that. Michael Zanetti wrote: > >>I've noticed this in other apps too. All lists scoll slower if the >>smooth-bounce-back-at-end feature is enabled. > Can't seem to stop that either. Hmmm. Help Needed! Michael Zanetti wrote: > >>I have also noticed that the toolbar uses resizes all entries according to the >>longest name. > Thanks for the tip. All names are shorter now. New version. http://n2.nabble.com/file/n3022613/launcher_0.21_arm.ipk launcher_0.21_arm.ipk * scroller for icons if more than 3 rows * center icons if there are 2 in a row * (re) added edit categories in the toolbar * larger icons for missed calls and sms's -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Launcher-Home-Page-%28alpha%29-Release-0.20-tp2969146p3022613.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Launcher/Home Page (alpha) Release 0.21
Hi, Just a thought. Isn't the drop down list easy enough to use with a single hand? I can manage that. -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Launcher-Home-Page-%28alpha%29-Release-0.21-tp2969146p3022644.html Sent from the Openmoko Community mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
roguem...@roguewrt.org wrote: > I booted from flash and SD card for quite some time. I think it's best to consider Qi as an SD-centric solution and to plan migrating towards SD. NAND support is only there because of the GTA01/GTA02 legacy and it has limitations compared to SD. While technically possible to bring NAND support in Qi on par with SD, I think it would just make things more complicated and lure people into using NAND whereas SD is the future. In the GTA03 design, we would not have used NAND for anything but storing Qi and read-only factory data. Likewise, for gta02-core, I wouldn't consider using u-boot. - Werner ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Freerunner's Future
Layoffs are always sad, and never an easy decision to make. To those who are leaving the company, thanks for the great work. I wish the best for your future endeavours and hope that you are able to remain in the community in some way. I know I haven't really contributed much to the project. I'm not much of a programmer and only have time to poke around on the phone every other weekend or so. Still, I've read almost every thread on the mailing list and have learned a great deal. I do have a fair bit of experience doing media relations for local grassroots organizations and non-profits. My experience isn't with software or technology, it's with anti-poverty activism and social service work. Nonetheless, I have some feedback based on some non-tech community organizing to share. Handing development of the Freerunner over to the community is a big deal. There is a lot of opportunity here to get good press for both Openmoko Inc. and the community. The way I see it, giving the phone to the community is every bit as radical as launching an open source phone was in the first place. The Openmoko community is now coordinating development of an updated Freerunner (using Free software), there are multiple distros, lots of apps, multiple phone gui apps. Not only that, but the mailing lists are far from stagnant, and outside of openmoko.org, other parts of the broader Openmoko community have their own mailing lists, wikis and tracs. The key point here is that Openmoko succeeded in building a community around its product. This is no easy task. Companies and organizations with more resources behind them have tried this and not succeeded nearly as well as Openmoko has. For this the company should be commended. There's definitely a newsworthy story here as well. Naysayers might look at Openmoko handing responsibility for the Freerunner to the community as a death knell for the project, or proof that an open source phone can't work. Instead, it seems the Freerunner is transitioning from a phone that was designed in house and then open sourced, to a phone for which the hardware itself is designed by an open source community. That's huge! There's a big difference between how the Freerunner was developed and how the gta02-core is being developed, and that means that once again Openmoko is breaking new ground. It may be a little early to bring this message to the media. It probably makes sense to let the community have a chance to formalize a bit, develop some structure. A Openmoko Foundation maybe? Anyways, once the dust settles maybe Openmoko could make a big announcement about how the thriving community is in the process of taking over development of the phone. It could be a chance for Openmoko to get some good press for being innovative and altruistic. It could also be a huge boon for the community, as it raises awareness about the work being done and reaches out to potential new members. Not to mention reminding people of all the incredible work that has been done with these phones so far. Openmoko is a success story. Despite all the frustrations and delays, a new community that develops open source phone technology has been created. In the FLOSS podcast interview a few weeks ago (I think) Sean spoke about how the Openmoko has reduced a lot of barriers to phone development, potentially allowing the kind of garage workshop innovations that led companies like Hewlett Packard or Apple. Facilitating the community and that kind of development just lowered one more barrier. Well, that's my 2 cents. Jeremy McNaughton On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harald Welte wrote: > Thanks for your update, Sean! > > It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support > of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in > areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks). > > I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can. > > Regards and thank you once again, > Harald > -- > - Harald Welte http://laforge.gnumonks.org/ > > "Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option." > (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6) > > ___ > Openmoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: sending SMS from paroli's People list (OM2009T4)
> i just stumbled across the way to send an SMS to a particular contact. in > the people screen, slide the contact name to the right, a "Msg" button > appears, which you can press to start composing an SMS. > > i'm sure i'm not the first person to find this, but i couldn't find any > references on the list after a cursory search, so i thought i'd mention > it. i know people have asked about this in the past. i also put a note > in the wiki. Feels like an Easter egg, yay! ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Fundamental Qi question
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 6:55 AM, Werner Almesberger wrote: > NAND support is only there because of the GTA01/GTA02 legacy and it > has limitations compared to SD. While technically possible to bring > NAND support in Qi on par with SD, I think it would just make things > more complicated and lure people into using NAND whereas SD is the > future. > > In the GTA03 design, we would not have used NAND for anything but > storing Qi and read-only factory data. Likewise, for gta02-core, I > wouldn't consider using u-boot. Hi! I use the distribution on NAND as an SD card reader. I load the OS, connect to my laptop, and I write the new distro to the uSD card. It is impossible to do it on the same SD card, from where the OS is running. You cant simply repartition the uSD card. For me the NAND partition is a perfectly usable *backup/emergency* OS. Furthermore, I used recently TangoGPS, and it broke the filesystem where the maps were located. It broked every time when the phone runned out of battery. Quick summary: vfat broken -> couldnt recover ext2 broken -> couldnt recover ext3 broken -> I could recover, but lost many files Luckely (thinking about any possibility before traveling), I had an OSM.tar file on the NAND with my backup OS, and I could reformat the SD card thousands kilometer away from my home without any computer or internet access. And I needed a map, because tangogps was all what I had.;) For me NAND is a musthave. I dont care about speed, or size. It is perfectly acceptable in *emergency* situation. I see only one alternativ: two uSD card slot. I think I made a fair point, so please save an emergency path. Relying only on uSD always require some third tool to recover. (eg: laptop with uSD card reader) Best regards, Laszlo ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
