Re: GSoC OpenMoko Bluetooth remote controller - First beta package

[Stroller]

On 8 Aug 2008, at 22:34, Valerio Valerio wrote:
>> Question: Would it be possible to emulate the Wii Remote?
> Yes it would be possible, it some accelerometer  work. I have a  
> similar functionality planed yet

While requests are being made, it would be quite useful here to have  
the phone emulate the PS3 remote control.
<http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/08/sonys-bd-remote-control-for-ps3- 
reviewed/>

I haven't looked closely at how the PS3 remote works. Whether it  
pretends to be a keyboard or uses some other bluetooth profile (??).  
The former case would be ideal as I guess it would need only an app  
showing fast-forward, rewind, play buttons that would sit above your  
keyboard emulator and pass their presses to it. I guess that'd be  
outside the scope of your project - not really innovative enough -  
and so maybe someone in the community would be interested in this.  
But if a whole different profile is needed then I would love it if  
you could take a quick look.

Stroller.


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Re: InvibleShield at ZAGG : swindling ?!?

[Stroller]

On 5 Aug 2008, at 19:19, Florian Hackenberger wrote:

> On Tuesday 05 August 2008, Stroller wrote:
>> Me, too. An exactly similar experience so far. But I think I will
>> give them a few more days.
> I can recommend giving them a call. It takes a while until they  
> pick up
> the phone, but they are very kind. They immediately agreed to send a
> replacement for the lost parcel (no arguing involved). You just need
> some patience on the phone (it's toll free). They never answered  
> any of
> my emails though.

If you reread my post you'll see that both myself & the person I was  
responding to found ZAGG quite helpful in agreeing to replace the  
lost InvibleShield - it's just that THE REPLACEMENT HASN'T ARRIVED,  
EITHER.

To be fair to them, the replacement was shipped out only 7 days ago  
now on 7-11 business-day shipping. I thought it was shipped earlier  
than that, and got the impression from the poster I quoted that his  
replacement was also overdue.

As I said, I'm still giving ZAGG a few more days, but they do seem to  
suffer from an unusually high proportion of lost parcels.

Stroller.

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Re: InvibleShield at ZAGG : swindling ?!?

[Stroller]

On 5 Aug 2008, at 13:56, Mikael Berthe wrote:
>
>> I ordered an InvibleShield protection at Zagg.com for my  
>> freerunner the 18th
>> of july and have been charged on my credit card but have no news  
>> about my
>> order (despite the fact that I sent them emails !!)
>>
>> I would like to know if any of you had troubles ordering on this  
>> web site.
>> Did you receive your order ?
>
> I've ordered one too, I haven't received it.
>
> I complained and they suppposedly sent me another one, which I haven't
> received either (the 2nd one was reshipped on Jully 25th).
>
> They told me (by email) they were sending them via UPS with no  
> tracking,
> so there's nothing we can do to check the status :\

Me, too. An exactly similar experience so far. But I think I will  
give them a few more days.

Stroller.


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Re: firmware Re: IMEI

[Stroller]

On 3 Aug 2008, at 20:31, Esben Stien wrote:
> Learning It <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> It means that this project is not totaly open to communityhmmm
>
> Really none of the firmware is open. We should be looking at putting
> GNU Radio inside the Neo;). Has anyone looked into this?. It shouldn't
> be illegal to sell such a device, cause GNU Radio boards are not
> illegal. There also is a GSM project related to GNU Radio to do the
> whole GSM stack in software, to my understanding.

Your last sentence surprises me. I don't think a device running GNU  
Radio (or whatever) would be licensable - it would probably be  
illegal to sell or use it as a phone. I would think any device sold  
as a phone would have to be licensed by the FCC or whoever, and that  
they would make requirements that the device must be unable to do X,  
Y & Z (where these are things that might interfere with other users),  
which would be impossible to guarantee with fully-open firmware.

Stroller.
  

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Re: Best UK data plan?

[Stroller]

On 30 Jul 2008, at 15:56, Gothnet wrote:
> ...
> I'm expecting my FreeRunner in the next day or so (thanks Truebox)  
> and was
> wondering if any other UK users had come across any good data tariffs?
>
> I've got myself a SIM card from T-Mobile with their Solo 15  
> package, and
> managed to persuade the guy in the shop to try selling it to me  
> with their
> "Mobile Broadband Plus" add-on. 12.50 for 3G a month unrestricted  
> use. This
> combination's not on their lists or their website and head office  
> said it
> couldn't be done, but for once "computer says yes" in store.

It would have helped comparison if you'd included a link [1], but  
AFACT the summary is £15 / month for 350 minutes + 650 texts. (Plus  
price of your unlimited data)

My initial reaction was that that is a bargain, because presently I'm  
on an expensive O2's "Online 30" contract [2] which includes subsidy  
of my last handset, a Sony Ericsson P990i smartphone, nearly 18  
months ago. As you will see from the link I am paying £30 a month for  
400 minutes.

I tried to check out alternative tariffs from O2 a couple of weeks  
ago and found them confusing. I believed at that time the equivalent  
tariff, not including a subsidised phone was £25. Mobile phone  
companies seem to try deliberately to make life as confusing as  
possible - I couldn't find a tariff *exactly* the same as mine, but  
the one I found was only a few quid saving for about the same number  
(+/- 12.5%) of minutes.

However, in replying to your message today I have just found the O2  
"simplicity" tariffs [3]. Their "Online 25" contract is "now" only  
£20, and it includes 600 minutes, 1000 texts and a free "bolt on".  
This is actually not obvious from when you click on the link I've  
given below, because the default "bolt on" is unlimited free texts,  
however you can instead select the "Unlimited Web" by clicking where  
it says "change".

Thus O2 "Simplicity", despite sounding like a feminine hygiene  
product, might be better value for you. As I read it you're paying  
£27.50 per month in total for your Solo 15 (350 minutes + 650 texts)  
+ data. The O2 would give you nearly twice as many calls for £7.50  
less, and still include unlimited data! Also voicemail is free on O2  
and out-of-inclusive calls seem to be cheaper, too.

It looks like the discount of "Online 25" to £20 is only available to  
new subscribers throughout August, which is a bit of a pain because  
my contract doesn't expire until September. I'll perhaps read &//or  
post to the Usenet group uk.discounts.and.bargains at that time and  
see if anyone else has any suggestions - it might be worth you doing  
so now, as I have not tried hard to better the price T-Mobile have  
offered you, and I think you'll find some experts on that group (also  
check uk.telecoms.mobile).

HTH,

Stroller.






[1] http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/business/mobile-phones/sim-card/ 
pay-monthly/
[2] http://shop.o2.co.uk/tariffs/18_months/benefits/Online_30
[3] http://shop.o2.co.uk/tariffs/sim_only
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Re: GSM detection/identification. Kismet on Freerunner

[Stroller]

On 31 Jul 2008, at 09:31, Ken Restivo wrote:
> ...
> Hmm. Has anyone ported Kismet to the OpenMoko yet?
> ...
> Since the phone has a built in GPS, it seems like it would be the  
> absolutely ideal Kismet platform, and also for something similar to  
> map cell phone signal strength and coverage.

Hi there,

I don't think the Freerunner's wifi driver (chip firmware?) will do  
passive mode. I think you may be able to run Kismet without this, but  
if so it is MUCH less useful.

> Also, has anyone created a GSM Kismet, or some kind of tool that  
> will list all carriers and their relative signal strengths.
> ...
> With GPRS, it could also upload that coverage data to a public site  
> somewhere and create nice interactive maps. Could be helpful for  
> people choosing which carrier to use: you could see who's got what  
> coverage where in places that you commonly travel to, live in, and  
> work in.

I think this idea was suggested a while ago, with some positive  
responses.

Stroller.


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Re: openphone + opensettopbox = ?

[Stroller]

On 29 Jul 2008, at 23:57, JW wrote:

> ok someone cleverer than me will do something cool with this and their
> freerunner at some point
>
> http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080729-neuros-open-set-top- 
> platform-puts-linux-in-living-rooms.html

As I read it, the Neuros hardware isn't that good. It'll only record  
standard-definition stuff from composite input, which altogether is  
about the least-optimal scenario for quality of video input. It'd  
probably be fine as a simple way to recording a VHS to a digital file  
to play on your iPod or PSP; this "analogue hole" overcomes the legal  
issues of DCSS when ripping a DVD, but that's about the only benefit  
(and a nebulous one, IMO). I guess it's simple for your granny to use.

As I read it, the Neuros hardware requires a set-top box for  
recording TV, again with these concerns over video quality. It looks  
like Neuros may be concentrating on doing things this way because  
they're chiefly interested in this TI DSP chip, but for the rest of  
us there are lots of "proper" set-top boxes and digital video recorders.

If you want an *open* set-top box that'll actually directly record  
digital TV then MythTV is much more interesting. You can find plenty  
of small, quiet PCs that are just as good as Neros' cute little box  
for living room use, and with MythTV you can record hi-def.

There are lots of ways you could "converge" Openmoko and MythTV.

Already you can connect to a webserver on your Myth box and schedule  
a recording (say if you're in the pub and your friend tells you "I'm  
videoing the first episode of this series which starts tonight - it  
looks cool"). Last time I checked (6 months ago?) progress was well  
underway for flash-based (YouTube-style) playback of your recorded  
shows; I think this is the best way for watching recorded video when  
you're away from home.

At this time of the morning my imagination isn't yet ramped up to  
full speed, but for doing cool stuff with TV & your cellphone I think  
MythTV is a batter partner to Openmoko.

Stroller.


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Re: Openmoko on Design

[Stroller]

On 29 Jul 2008, at 09:23, Marcus Bauer wrote:
> ...
> Openmoko should concentrate on kernel and driver work, power  
> management
> and working hardware and a basic set of apps. ...

+1

As Openmoko push more open hardware out the door, people will come  
running to do cool stuff on it.

It's the "blue sky" talk of "evoking innovation", "actualizing  
contributions" and "imagination resources" that is building  
excitement about Openmoko and leading to disappointment.

Honestly, if Openmoko said "the Freerunner is a free, open, Linux- 
based mobile phone that runs Trolltech's good old Qtopia phone  
software" then people would still be queuing up to buy it.

"oh, and by the way we're also developing some software of our own  
and you can try the open alpha if you want to" would be better than  
this "building the future" sort of stuff - although the latter phrase  
strictly indicates "it's not ready yet", it's far more evocative and  
emotional. We think we see our dreams *today* - no wonder people are  
peeved when they're dashed.

Stroller.




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Re: [openmoko-announce] Openmoko on Design

[Stroller]

On 28 Jul 2008, at 21:31, Jay Vaughan wrote:

>> Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you. But like I said, we each have
>> our
>> own ways of understanding and making meanings.
>> You are free to create your own meanings.
>
> I just can't see how you honestly believe all this panty-waiste
> dilettante waffling about "not having a design because its up to the
> open community" is going to drive things forward.


I read Sean's message quite differently to the way you did, apparently.

I read it as "we do have a design for ASU" and presumably when he  
said "we're not taking votes on piddly little implementation details"  
this is because FIC just want to get on with things and as quickly as  
possible and get ASU to the sate where it's the reference-platform  
(with the nice-looking GUI) that you desire.

Having said that, I had to read the message more than once to arrive  
at these conclusions. From Sean's message & Will's [1] it seems to me  
like people at Openmoko sometimes speak a different language from the  
rest of us, a language with over a thousand words for "blue sky".

I don't want to sound negative (again!) because over the weekend I've  
had a bit of a revelation about Openmoko, and I'm feeling much more  
positive than I was a couple of days ago. I've just spent quite a bit  
of time trying to express that in a reply to "Openmoko on Design"  
that I sent privately to Sean; I've asked him if I can post that to  
the list, but I don't want want to publicly post "my interpretation"  
of Openmoko if he thinks that mischaracterises them. Initially I was  
really angry about the whole removal-of-the-keyboard-button-by- 
shadowy-designers thing, and I've come to realise it's irrelevant and  
that I was stupid to get upset about it.

Nevertheless, the problem with the explanations made by Sean & Will  
is that one shouldn't have to "interpret" statements of official  
policy at all. We shouldn't be "free to create your own meanings"  
from your explanations. I found these posts surprising because they  
seem to have borrowed their manner of response from John McCain's  
recent interview on gay adoption [2]. They approached some clear and  
specific concerns in a way that geometry does not address - had they  
done so tangentially it would have been a vast improvement.

I think my first project will be called MokoBingo! (with the  
exclamation mark!)! It will check the mailing list on a regular basis  
and the Freerunner will make a squeaky noise when any of the  
following terms are encountered:

   Open, free, innovation, imaginative
   creative, community. Resources, sharing,
   imagination, struggle, essential ideas.
   Foundation, openness, art, growth.
   Self-organize,
   building dreams.
   Productive!
   Understanding, the power of open.
   diversity, change.

Actually, you will get two squeaks for "self-organize".

Stroller.




[1] [EMAIL PROTECTED] is an Openmoko employee, right?
[2] http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=llZuoMXpr4s

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Re: Terminal for ASU

[Stroller]

Believe it or not, Steve, sarcasm is not the same thing as wit.

I am sure you have plenty of wit at your disposal. You do yourself a  
disservice in failing to exercise it.

Stroller.



On 28 Jul 2008, at 22:11, steve wrote:

> Oh  the design team have been  listening.
> ...
> So I owe the design Team an apology.

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Re: USB connector not Mini-AB?

[Stroller]

On 28 Jul 2008, at 10:44, Andy Green wrote:
> ...
>> Will the next Freerunner revision have a proper mini USB-AB
>> receptacle like the one at
>> http://www.cypressindustries.com/mini_usb_ab_connector.html ?
>
>
> How do you think what is on Freerunner right now differs from that?
> Seems to be what we got already.

If you look at the Freerunner its USB port is kinda trapezoid. Kinda  
"equilateral trapezoid" (??) with a "kink" in the shorter sides.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapeziod

If you compare the two they are clearly different:
http://www.cypressindustries.com/products/images/ 
ccmusbb-32005-201.gif
http://www.cypressindustries.com/products/images/ 
ccmusbab-32005-700.gif

The Freerunner's USB port is that widely used on other devices as a  
USB mini "B" connector.

I have here immediately to hand a Canon dSLR camera, a Sony PSP  
gameboy and Sony console joypad that all feature similar sockets (and  
at least charge with the same cable that the Freerunner uses).

If you look at the cypressindustries link that Charles posted you'll  
see it's a different shape - the metal "rim" has 6 straight sides. It  
reminds me of a firewire (400?) connector, although its aspect ratio  
is quite opposite.

I think the point is that the other devices I mentioned are *only*  
USB "B". They are connected to computers only as peripherals. You  
will not connect a keyboard or a mouse to a camera or joypad.

The Freerunner, on the other hand, may be connected to a computer as  
a peripheral (it is USB "B" for firmware flashing or if the FR were  
to pretend to be a solid-state storage device) or may have  
peripherals connected to it (the FR must behave as USB "A" if a  
keyboard or mouse is connected).

As I read this it the Cypress mini USB-AB receptacle Charles links to  
is intended to distinguish that it is *not merely* a USB "B" device,  
but capable of USB "A" functions also. I conjecture such a USB "AB"  
connector might be "split" in order to perform both A and B functions  
simultaneously, or provide other features not available merely  
"abusing" a USB "B" socket.

Stroller.


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Re: Has anyone tried the invisibleSHIELD on the freerunner?

[Stroller]

Hi there,

Did you ever hear any more of this?

I also happened to order on the 4th, and have had no sign of my  
invisibleSHIELD, either.

I'll drop them an email - sod's law says it'll arrive immediately  
afterwards - but it would be nice to read that you have now found  
them helpful.

Stroller.



On 23 Jul 2008, at 16:02, Bryan DeLuca wrote:

> I cannot comment on the product.  I placed my order on July 4th and  
> aside from the charge to my card and the confirmation of sale email  
> I haven't heard a thing from ZAGG.  I sent their customer service  
> an email on Monday, no reply.  I called them today and their phone  
> line says they are having a company holiday and will be out all day  
> and half of tomorrow.
>
> Some of the people in my OM buyers group ordered just the screen  
> protectors (I ordered the whole device protection) and received  
> them within a week.  So, my experience hs not been very good thus far.


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Re: Community contributions to core apps & features. (Was: Terminal for ASU)

[Stroller]

On 26 Jul 2008, at 09:46, rakshat hooja wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 1:16 PM, Stroller  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> There's apparently no design document saying where ASU (or whatever)
>> is going in terms of features. We don't know who to contact in order
>> to get approval for our concepts before we waste a lot of time on
>> them.
>
> I agree with your points and questions and am waiting for answers  
> for Steve but have you seen this
>
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ASU_Feature_Plan
>
> It is pretty easy to see the ASU features and who to contact.

Had I seen this? Absolutely not!
And I do wish I had seen it before.

I won't comment further at this time, but I'll amend the wiki later  
(cc'd to documentation as a reminder) so that some other relevant  
pages link to it & it's easier to find.

Stroller.




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Community contributions to core apps & features. (Was: Terminal for ASU)

[Stroller]

On 26 Jul 2008, at 03:10, steve wrote:

> Ask your questions stroller.
>
> I'll  do my best to answer them.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your reply. I've posted my questions - or rather a request  
for openness & clarification - already in this thread. Because the  
background of the thread already contains all context you ought to  
need, it's difficult to know where to start asking you questions. Let  
me try.

On 21 Jul 2008, at 19:47, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
   the problem is the designers decided that ASU is not to have any
   manual keyboard toggle button because it will disturb the design
   and/or confuse users, so all apps and toolkits need modification
   to talk a "protocol" to bring up the keyboard on demand (no manual
   controls). that is why you need to do this.  personally i think you
   need a manual control because, as such, many apps and toolkits will
   not be changed, or they will get it wrong and give you a keyboard
   when you don't want one, or decide not to give you one when you
   do... but that's not my call.

- Who are the designers who decided that ASU is not to have any  
manual keyboard toggle button because it will "disturb the design and/ 
or confuse users" please? Was this a group of Openmoko employees? Or  
a single individual at Openmoko? Does this person have a specified  
role managing the design of ASU? Who do users bitch to if they don't  
like "design decisions"?
- How do you respond to Raster's suggestion that a "manual override"  
will be needed?
- Is a complicated "protocol" to bring up the keyboard on demand -  
which each input method will need to be patched to support - *really*  
better than a simple button?
- Will it be difficult to accommodate this protocol when porting an  
input method (Dasher, for instance) to Openmoko? Or will it be simple  
enough to do so that it easily justifies that lack of a manual  
keyboard button?

No. Ignore those questions.

This is only a small thing. I haven't followed the details of the  
problem closely - it was Raster's "i wanted to do this this way, but  
i wasn't allowed to" that surprised me - but it looks like the  
problems that this introduces aren't unmanageable.

What is of more concern is the connotations of this decision. As far  
as we (end-users on -community) are able to determine, a feature was  
removed by the process of someone @openmoko saying "I don't like  
that" and emailing Raster (or IRCing him or walking into his office)  
and saying "pull that" without saying to the users "hey, before we do  
this, are you using that feature? do *you* think it's ugly or  
confusing?"

Openmoko has always promoted itself as "fully open" - to quote  
Michael's words a couple of days ago:

   the goal of the project is not to create a new cellphone, but rather,
   that by being open, we allow and encourage innovation, and that by
   working with you, the open source community, we tap into a huge
   pool of imaginative, creative, very smart and hardworking innovators.

I have always understood Openmoko's openness to encompass the *entire  
breadth* of Openmoko software development. It's great if we can write  
apps for the Freerunner, but I can already write apps for Symbian or  
Windows Mobile. It's great that I can fork the code Openmoko are  
writing commercially and make modifications to the application  
manager or the dialler but that's obviously a duplication of effort -  
I thought you wanted the community to help contribute to the core  
applications, too. Isn't this the case?

Let's talk about the hypothetical community member Bob. Bob has a  
great idea a feature that he'd like to see on his mobile phone. Let's  
say he's meeting Charlie at cafe near the Linux convention and he  
thinks "it'd be great if I could select Charlie in my phone's  
addressbook and - alongside 'call contact' and 'SMS contact' - it  
said 'Send my location'. I'd just click that and it could SMS my GPS  
location to Charlie and on Charlie's phone it would pop up a message  
'Bob has sent you his location by SMS. Would you like to see where he  
is?' and then show a map with my location on it (or at least a needle  
showing distance and direction)".

Under a normal community development process Bob has some idea of  
whether or not other developers might like this idea. He can message  
them on IRC and say "would you include that in the main tree?" Bob  
can hack together a bit of code showing a working prototype and post  
patches to the mailing list knowing that the community will at least  
consider it. They might say "cool idea, but no-one'll use it, so we  
don't want it in the core distro", the

Re: Purchasing Neo Freerunner in the UK

[Stroller]

On 24 Jul 2008, at 18:49, Ross Woodruff wrote:
> ...  I am just wondering
> where people in the UK purchased their FreeRunners from. I'm  
> thinking of
> getting one in the near future and just wondering if anybody has used
> the TrueBox distributor ...

I got mine from Truebox & am very happy with them. I live in Milton  
Keynes, so they delivered it to my door personally.

> ...will work on a UK phone network (I'm on O2).

I'm on O2, too, & the Freerunner works fine here. My SIM is rather  
old, tho', so I can't comment on newer 3G SIMs.

Stroller.


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Re: Purchasing Neo Freerunner in the UK

[Stroller]

On 24 Jul 2008, at 19:05, Ross Woodruff wrote:

> Ok thanks for your help, does anybody know if the price is likely drop
> some time this year ...

Unlikely.

I am not able to make official advice, but Openmoko stated they were  
cutting the price down to the bone in order to get it out & in our hands

> or will there be a new model? How long is the
> Freerunner going to be the latest model?

A new model is being worked on. I think it has a camera, but aside  
from that it doesn't make any big changed. Based on how long it took  
to get the Freerunner out the door I estimate at least 9 months,  
maybe a year before it ships.

Stroller.


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Re: HTML messages to mailing lists. Problem upgrading ncurses

[Stroller]

On 24 Jul 2008, at 03:50, Steven Kurylo wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 5:44 PM, Stroller
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> On 24 Jul 2008, at 01:09, Dale Schumacher wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, could you possibly post to the list in plain text, not HTML?
>>>
>>> Sure, I could.  I thought it would be more clear to post the
>>> transcript in fixed font.  Doesn't it come through as multi-part-
>>> alternative anyway, so you should have a plain-text version too?
>>> It seems the richer markup is often useful.
>>
>>
>> The fixed-width font you chose ("courier new,monospace"?) is
>> honoured, but comes up as greyish on my mail client (Apple's Mail)
>> and is difficult to read.
>
> So it sounds the problem is with your client.

Arguably is it _in this case_.

However, the fundamental problem with HTML messages is that the  
sender tells the recipient's email client what font to use, without  
knowing how it will display for the recipeint.

In this case it might be that my mail client doesn't display courier  
new terribly well, but next week it'll be someone else who thinks  
that green is a great colour in which to compose their email  
messages, and the font size they choose will come up 2mm high on my  
screen (and probably on yours, too). I can't tell you which of the  
lists I subscribe to it was, but this HAS happened on a Linux mailing  
list in the last 8 weeks.

> Tell your client,
> assuming its a reasonable client, to only show plain text and not the
> HTML.

I don't wish to do that because commercial HTML messages display  
fine, and I like them. (and my client does not allow "enable/disable  
HTML by folder, if at all)

I am only requesting that you don't send HTML messages unless you  
know they'll display legibly for the majority (>99%) of your readers.  
Amazon do this, why can't Dale? I don't mean this, especially not  
personally, but I hope you get my point. Plain-text is ALWAYS safe.

> The only argument to skip html is disk space/bandwidth which is rarely
> an issue these days.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. It's not worth a big  
argument, and I'm only requesting a preference, not laying down  
"rules" for the list.

I notice that the list's subscription page has an option "Get MIME or  
Plain Text Digests?"
I'd be glad to use that if that would stop my whining, but I assume  
that it would also strip plain text or gzip'd attachments (presumably  
these are also MIME parts?) and I would like to receive .conf or .log  
files if they're posted.

Stroller

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Re: Terminal for ASU

[Stroller]

On 24 Jul 2008, at 08:30, arne anka wrote:

>> If you've been mismanaged/micromanaged so badly that you've had to  
>> adopt
>> what Neitzche called the "Sklavmoral"-- or  "I'm not paid to  
>> think, I'm
>
> well, nietzsche told a lot of stuff and ended up in the funny farm  
> in due
> time ... and if his own morale was that much better than  
> sklavenmoral is
> up to discusssion.
> anyway, what raster tries to say, imho, is: do not bother _him_  
> with your
> criticism but the designers themselves -- saying he's only the  
> programmer
> makes imo sufficiently clear that he's not teh one to make that  
> decistions
> and as he wrote before his opinion is not taken in account.
> so, if you want to have it changed, bother the design department.

I did mean to reply to one of Carsten's earlier (yesterday) messages  
and say "I'm not having a go at you personally, mate".

But it is in order to badger the "design department" that we're  
posting to -community on the subject.

We don't seem to have contact details for the "design department" and  
with Carsten washing his hands of the matter (apparently justifiably)  
Openmoko seem to be ignoring the subject. How else can we get  
Openmoko to take our opinions into account, other than to post here?

Stroller.


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Re: Public build host (proposal)

[Stroller]

On 24 Jul 2008, at 06:22, Kalle Happonen wrote:
> John Mark Walker wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 2:25 PM, Yorick Moko  
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> by "gratis" he means "without cost"
>>
>> Oops... :)  Yes, I mean "free as in beer."
>
> Not to be a nitpick, but I think the official quote is "free as in  
> free
> beer" which makes much more sense :).

I have never seen the phrase used this way, only "free as in  
beer" (vs "free as in speech").

I think historically beer was given out on polling day, when  
candidates wished to influence the electorate. They would host a big  
party and drunk electors would go to the polling booths thinking  
"that guy would make a great politician because he gave me free  
beer". Thus the beer is not "really free".

> In general I have a way too hard time to find free beer.

Exactly! If someone gives you free beer then they probably want  
something in return! Likewise "there's no such thing as a free  
lunch", even if the salesman is buying.

Stroller.



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Re: HTML messages to mailing lists. Problem upgrading ncurses

[Stroller]

On 24 Jul 2008, at 01:09, Dale Schumacher wrote:
>
>> Also, could you possibly post to the list in plain text, not HTML?
>
> Sure, I could.  I thought it would be more clear to post the  
> transcript in fixed font.  Doesn't it come through as multi-part- 
> alternative anyway, so you should have a plain-text version too?   
> It seems the richer markup is often useful.


The fixed-width font you chose ("courier new,monospace"?) is  
honoured, but comes up as greyish on my mail client (Apple's Mail)  
and is difficult to read.

Generally speaking, posting in plain text allows me to view messages  
on my computer as I wish. HTML messages allow you to set a font that  
is unreadable in my machine, so I have to click extra buttons or  
keyboard shortcuts in order to make them viewable. This is usually  
more obvious when people set a font SIZE which is perfect on their PC  
but too small on my monitor.

I would _love_ a mail standard which allows setting bold, underline,  
italics and fixed-font without all the other rubbish that HTML email  
introduces. This would allow _you_ to set fixed-font and allow _me_  
to choose whether I wish to display it in courier, lucidia console or  
whatever (and presumably at full blackness rather than greyish).  
Unfortunately this would require co-operation from all the authors of  
email clients, so it's never likely to happen.

I don't really mind Amazon's HTML emails because they clearly have  
usability or web-design experts who spend hours on choosing fonts or  
how they specify them in their messages. In any case messages from  
Amazon, and most other online stores are always readable, so I don't  
block incoming HTML. But for mailing lists, plain-text is always safe  
and "right".

Stroller.


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Re: Problem upgrading ncurses

[Stroller]

On 24 Jul 2008, at 00:43, Dale Schumacher wrote:

> Going through my daily ritual of update and upgrade, I've been  
> having trouble with ncurses.
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# cat /proc/version
> Linux version 2.6.24 ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) (gcc version  
> 4.1.2) #1 PREEMPT Tue Jul 22 02:21:01 CEST 2008
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# opkg upgrade
> Upgrading ncurses on root from 5.4-r14 to 5.4-r15...
> Downloading http://buildhost.openmoko.org/daily-feed/armv4t/ 
> ncurses_5.4-r15_armv4t.ipk
> Collected errors:
>  * Package ncurses wants to install file /usr/lib/libncurses.so.5
> But that file is already provided by package  * libncurses5
>
> This has persisted for at least the last 24 hours.  Is anyone else  
> seeing this problem?

There's a bug in TRAC for this:
https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/1569

The fix there went from "in testing" to bug "closed" in the last  
couple of days, so presumably it works. Please confirm.

Also, could you possibly post to the list in plain text, not HTML?

Stroller.


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Re: InvisibleShield discounts!

[Stroller]

On 23 Jul 2008, at 13:04, Sven Klomp wrote:

> On Wednesday 23 July 2008 13:55:33 Mikko Rauhala wrote:
>> On ke, 2008-07-23 at 13:43 +0200, Bastian Feder wrote:
>>> Take them and use them wisely.
>>> (If you've used one, please write back to community there would  
>>> be no
>>> discount code collision).
>>
>> Meh. Please, when sharing discount codes, take the time to dish  
>> them out
>> yourself privately. The community list is stuffed enough as it is,  
>> and
>> throwing around one-use codes and notes about them being used  
>> publically
>> is somewhat superfluous.
>
> Or setting up a Wiki page. If someone uses that code, he can  
> directly remove
> it from the page...

Someone has done this today:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Zagg_Protection_Discount_Number

When ordering please use the oldest numbers first, taking them from  
the top. When adding numbers please add them to the bottom.

I would be grateful if people could post their numbers to this wiki  
page and no longer clutter the list with them. (But this is only my  
opinion, and I can't make you do so!)

If you're starting a new thread about the Zagg invisibleSHIELD then I  
would be grateful if you could post the link to this wiki page so  
that it gets widely publicised.

Stroller.


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Re: freerunner unable to work with 3G SIMCards?

[Stroller]

On 23 Jul 2008, at 22:55, Michael Shiloh wrote:

> Brenda has set up a wiki page to list these problem cards
>
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ 
> FreeRunner_unalbe_to_work_with_3G_SIM_cards
>
> (Roh, is it problematic to fix that spelling error?)
>
> Michael

If you mean the misspelling of "unalbe" then the page was already  
moved some days ago:

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ 
FreeRunner_unable_to_work_with_3G_SIM_cards

If you're accessing the page via the misspelled link (as quoted in  
your post above) then the page simply redirects to the correctly- 
spelled URL.

On my browser the misspelling persists in the browser's address bar,  
but if you click on the "edit" link then you'll see that you're  
editing the correctly-spelled version of the page (and if, from the  
"edit" page you click on the "page" tab then it takes you back to the  
correctly-spelled URL).

Stroller.
  

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Re: Terminal for ASU

[Stroller]

On 22 Jul 2008, at 14:36, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>> ...
>> Sorry to trouble you, but who are these designers, please?
>
> i'll let them speak up if they wish to be part of a debate on this.  
> it's up to
> them.

I'd be grateful if someone @openmoko could be a bit transparent about  
this.

> ... i have technical reasons why i think the
> move to remove any such manual control is a bad thing and have made  
> them clear
> often enough.

This is why openness would be beneficial to the community.

After all the efforts that Openmoko have made over being open, I am  
just amazed that design decisions that affect everyone are being made  
in secret.

>> I think  many of us would like to contribute to the ASU, seeing as
>> how it's the future of Openmoko, so this would appear to be a
>> limitation upon community contributions.
>
> as such we are paid by openmoko to do what  we are told to do by  
> the design
> department and that is what we then do. you in the community can go  
> and do your
> own themes and patches and packages and do what u want.

Openmoko promotes itself as an "open" company soliciting  
contributions from community developers.

That's great!

But if that means I can only develop apps that run ON the phone - or  
if I want to code for core apps then I need to fork - it would be  
great if they could say so.

Sorry to use the alarmist word "fork" here, I don't mean it that way.

But right now it appears difficult to contribute changes to the ASU  
window manager (if I'm understanding correctly that that is the  
component which is missing a manual keyboard toggle button). It is  
pointless me doing so if I have to maintain this patch all on my own  
and no-one else is going to benefit. If I want to add a manual  
keyboard toggle button then that's exactly the scenario - if other  
people want to use it I effectively have to "fork" the code,  
maintaining a whole package or firmware image, simply so people can  
download it from my website.

>> Where are the design documents which say "no keyboard toggle button
>> should be included", please? If one wishes to contribute code or
>> patches to ASU then I guess it's necessary to know this, or one will
>> find patches rejected because they don't meet this design  
>> specification?
>
> well design documents are pretty thin on the ground. i was told so in
> email/irc directly to do this. i had a manual button there  
> originally and was
> explicitly told to remove it.

Right. So right now there's no point in members of the community  
trying to contribute patches to core features or functionality, lest  
these patches get declined because the designers don't happen to like  
them. Even worse is the prospect of you saying "great! this is really  
useful, I'll add it to git" and then the community member feeling  
disappointed (pissed off) later when you're told to remove it.

IMO it's crazy for you (the senior developer to ASU? you're surely  
the most active?) to have his hands tied by these shadowy "designers"  
who can interfere apparently on a whim. Especially when they're  
coming up with crazy decisions that are technically poor!!

On 21 Jul 2008, at 19:47, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>>> ...
>>> the problem is the designers decided that ASU is not to have any  
>>> manual keyboard toggle button because it will disturb the design  
>>> and/or confuse users, so all apps and toolkits need modification  
>>> to talk a "protocol" to bring up the keyboard on demand (no  
>>> manual controls). that is why you need to do this.

They asked you to take out a simple button, in favour of a whole  
protocol, when no protocol currently exists? Aside from the points  
you make about porting existing (Gnome, KDE, whatever) applications  
to ASU, what's the hard in keeping the button until this protocol is  
later developed?

Please would the "designers" speak up so we can flame them directly.

Presently I think you're misnaming these individuals (this  
individual?). A design document is required for a design, so that  
everyone can see the rationale for decisions. Everything that's  
implemented should have a reason (stated in the design document), and  
that a button might "disturb the design and/or confuse users" is not  
a rational reason for having broken apps which can't use a bloomin'  
keyboard. Making ad-hoc demands for change after the fact is not  
"designing" it is *meddling*.

Stroller.



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Re: the answering machine

[Stroller]

On 20 Jul 2008, at 05:13, Frederik Sdun wrote:
> ...
> I'm one of the GSoC students and work on the answering machine. ...

Hi there,

Is there any page on the Wiki about your work?

I'm posting a fair bit to the documentation mailing list at present  
and today discovered this page:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Voice_Mailbox

It looks like the current Voice_Mailbox wiki page is simply a  
wishlist and unless anyone is implementing its specifics then that  
page is pretty much useless.

It would be nice if you could take a look at that page & see if  
there's any ideas there that would be valuable to your implementation.

Unless anyone is currently working on the Voice_Mailbox _as  
described_ on that page ISTM to be a candidate for deletion or  
archival. It would be nice, in that case, to link it to your  
implementation, seeing as that's sure to appear in official images &  
repositories.

I am posting this to the documentation mailing list - I have cc'd - 
community seeing as I'm replying to your message there, but please  
make any further responses regarding wiki pages to documentation,  
please.

Stroller.




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Re: Terminal for ASU

[Stroller]

On 21 Jul 2008, at 19:47, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> ...
> the problem is the designers decided that ASU is not to have any  
> manual
> keyboard toggle button because it will disturb the design and/or  
> confuse users,
> so all apps and toolkits need modification to talk a "protocol" to  
> bring up the
> keyboard on demand (no manual controls). that is why you need to do  
> this.
> personally i think you need a manual control because, as such, many  
> apps and
> toolkits will not be changed, or they will get it wrong and give  
> you a keyboard
> when you don't want one, or decide not to give you one when you  
> do... but
> that's not my call.

Hi Carsten,

Sorry to trouble you, but who are these designers, please?

I think  many of us would like to contribute to the ASU, seeing as  
how it's the future of Openmoko, so this would appear to be a  
limitation upon community contributions.

Where are the design documents which say "no keyboard toggle button  
should be included", please? If one wishes to contribute code or  
patches to ASU then I guess it's necessary to know this, or one will  
find patches rejected because they don't meet this design specification?

Stroller.


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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Stroller]

Ok. Finally! Done.

The main page is built up from, as I perceive it, an ugly mess of  
templates.

The box underneath the green "Introduction to Openmoko" (containing  
the "Original core team" ... "Why Openmoko?" links) is put there by  
referencing Template:Mainpage - this contains nothign but the box and  
inside that {{submenu}}. Template:Submenu, then contains the actual  
words and links of "Original core team" ... "Why Openmoko?".

Sorry to clutter the main list with this - I'll be off of here (as  
far as this subject goes) immediately the wiki mailing-list is  
created - but can anyone familiar with big wikis tell me if this is  
normal?

I'm all for breaking big wossisnames into components, but this seems  
a little excessive - I had to visit 3 pages in order to edit a single  
link.

Stroller.



On 17 Jul 2008, at 21:29, Steven ** wrote:

> I'll tell you explicitly.  Go ahead.  It's a wiki!  If anyone doesn't
> like your change, they can easily see the history and revert it.  Or
> just clean up your change however they like.  That's what makes the
> wiki so powerful.
>
> If they didn't want you to edit it, I'm pretty sure they could lock it
> down so that you can't.  The fact that they haven't seems to mean they
> aren't worried "regular" users might edit it.
>
> -Steven
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Stroller
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by
>> editing the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/
>> wiki/Distributions
>>
>> But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the
>> "Current software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/
>> NeoSoftwareStack ??
>>
>> Perhaps these 5 categories:
>>   Introduction to Openmoko
>>   Openmoko Products
>>   Join Openmoko development
>>   Openmoko community
>>   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
>> should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?
>>
>> Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the
>> "Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As
>> a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"
>> to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly
>> if you wish me to feel free.
>>
>> Stroller.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:
>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>>>
>>>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>>>
>>>   A good start would be a better search engine
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda  
>>> Wang
>>> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
>>> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of
>>> mostly
>>> outdated and incomplete documentation."
>>>
>>> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
>>> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki
>>> more easy
>>> to use.
>>> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use
>>> this Index
>>> page.
>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>>>
>>> Brenda
>>>
>>> Scott Derrick ??:
>>>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>>>
>>>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the
>>>> OM Wiki.
>>>>
>>>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>>>
>>>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>>>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I  
>>>> search
>>>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never
>>>> know
>>>> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it  
>>>> existed was
>>>> Software/distributions/distributions..
>>>>
>>>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and
>>>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on
>>>> the
>>>> search engine, it sucks..
>>>>
>>>> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the  
>>>> OpenWRT
>>>> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find
>>>> things instead of thwarting you.
>>>>
>>>> Scott
>>>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
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Re: Problem in logging in freerunner through ssh

[Stroller]

I keep the following command in my .bash_profile:

   alias ssg="ssh -o StrictHostKeyChecking=no -o UserKnownHostsFile=/ 
dev/null"

I then `ssg` to hosts which are liable to have changing ssh keys.

Joachim Steiger's suggestion, limiting relaxed HostKeyChecking to a  
single IP is less useful to me, because I most always have a machine  
or two on the network which are getting fresh or temporary o/s  
installs, or which receive dynamic addresses (and which consequently  
share the 192.168.1.100 - 192.168.1.102 range of addresses).

His suggestion causes me to wonder if I should just disable  
HostKeyChecking for all addresses in 192.168.x.y, but the thought  
does pique my paranoia.

Stroller.


On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:26, Marcus Bauer wrote:

>
> Paul Bonser answered already with the fix.
>
> I'll add the reason: whenever you connect to an unknown system, you  
> are
> asked if you want to accept the key like this:
>
> -
> The authenticity of host '192.168.0.202 (192.168.0.202)' can't be
> established.
> RSA key fingerprint is d8:c1:d2:ac:e9:57:9f:ed:1d:ee:b3:fa:62:04:8c: 
> 6c.
> Are you sure you want to continue connecting (yes/no)?
> -
>
> and when you answer 'yes' the public key will be saved to your
> ~/.ssh/known_hosts file. This prevents the so called
> man-in-the-middle-attack. Search google or wikipedia for more details.
>
> If you reflash your phone, the public key changes (it is unique and
> generated on the first boot) and your ssh believes there is an attack.
> Somewhere on the wiki is a description how to shut this behaviour off,
> but I hope nobody will ever inactivate this vigilance.
>

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Stroller]

Hi there,

I thought to try fixing a small part of this particular problem by  
editing the main page & adding a link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/ 
wiki/Distributions

But I do not see where to put it! Perhaps it should replace the  
"Current software stack" link to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ 
NeoSoftwareStack ??

Perhaps these 5 categories:
   Introduction to Openmoko
   Openmoko Products
   Join Openmoko development
   Openmoko community
   Getting started with Openmoko Wiki
should be extended with the addition of "Openmoko software"?

Or perhaps I should just get my hands dirty and change the  
"Introduction to Openmoko" to include the link to "Distributions"? As  
a user I feel reluctant to edit the main page as I feel it "belongs"  
to Openmoko the company or to Brenda, so you must tell me explicitly  
if you wish me to feel free.

Stroller.



On 17 Jul 2008, at 20:00, steve wrote:

> Brenda
>
>   The main page index does not address Scotts issue.
>
>   I second scott's criticism of the wiki. It is not organized well.
>
>   A good start would be a better search engine
>
>
>
> Steve
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brenda Wang
> Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 6:56 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of  
> mostly
> outdated and incomplete documentation."
>
> Hi, I am wiki full time editor of Openmoko.
> Thank you for your opinion . I will put more effort , to make wiki  
> more easy
> to use.
> And now , If you want to know what we have on wiki , Please use  
> this Index
> page.
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>
> Brenda
>
> Scott Derrick ??:
>> Perhaps this is what you seek?
>>
>>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> This is a great page, one of the gems hidden in the bowels of the  
>> OM Wiki.
>>
>> Its also a great example of whats wrong with the Wiki.
>>
>> But how do I find it?  Its not listed on the home page,  not on the
>> FreeRunner page,  not on the getting started page?Unless I search
>> for exactly teh right word or combinations of words I would never  
>> know
>> it existed... The only link I could find, after I knew it existed was
>> Software/distributions/distributions..
>>
>> There has to be some kind of boiler plate format for the design and
>> layout of the Wiki so things are easier to find. You can't rely on  
>> the
>> search engine, it sucks..
>>
>> I think that was the point of the person who recommended the OpenWRT
>> Wiki.  Its design and format was easy to use and helped you find
>> things instead of thwarting you.
>>
>> Scott
>>

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Re: Wiki editors. Citation needed?

[Stroller]

On 17 Jul 2008, at 08:24, BrendaWang wrote:
> ...
> 3. I would like to put the Youtube extension , then we can see the  
> video
> on wiki. I would like to know if this useful ? Personal opinion , I  
> like
> to have this.

I'm unclear why an extension is needed - can't YouTube videos simply  
be embedded using HTML? - and don't see *massive* benefits to YouTube  
videos on the wiki.

But I don't see any disadvantages to having YouTube videos on the  
wiki, either. Go for it.

> I plan to put the rating function on wiki. Perhape it can help many
> people who visit wiki , know how other people think this page is  
> useful
> or not.
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:JSKitRating

This is a great idea!


Also:

Does the current wiki software allow for templates, like Wikipedia?  
Sorry if this is obvious - perhaps the Openmoko wiki uses exactly the  
same software as Wikipedia?

For instance, sentences in many Wikipedia articles are marked with  
the words "citation needed" - I see from a little searching that this  
superscript is added when someone edits the page to include the tag  
{{cn}} or {{fact}}. Presumably there is a page automatically  
generated somewhere (I can't immediately find this) which shows all  
pages using that tag and this one can easily see all pages requiring  
fact-checking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Fact

I feel that a similar feature would be useful for the Openmoko wiki -  
it should probably display "fact check?" rather than "citation  
needed" and new users should be encouraged to mark any sections they  
are unsure of or any steps in the HOWTOs that don't work when they  
follow them.

Likewise I think there should be a template for software entries  
which indicates which firmware images - ASU, 2007.2 &c - the page  
applies to. Just as the Wikipedia entry for the Lotus Elise has an  
inset which states it to mid-engined and rear-wheel drive, each  
software page should say whether the article is *about* one of the  
core firmwares, whether it is steps that can be applied to firmwares  
FSO & ASU (but not to 2007.2, because that one is incompatible with,  
say, gpsd) or whether it's software that can be *installed* on the  
FSO & ASU images (but is preinstalled on 2007.2).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Elise

Perhaps I'm horribly confused, but if my horrible confusion over the  
different images at least has the correct basis then this would be  
very beneficial to users.

Stroller.


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Re: Wiki Index was Re: Wiki editors

[Stroller]

The purpose of user pages is generally for users to tell readers  
about themselves.

"Hi, my name is Bob and I've been an Openmoko user for 2 years. I  
have a PHd in technical writing and I enjoy contributing to the wiki  
in my spare time."

Just look at some of the Wikipedia user pages for fuller examples -  
there they often display "awards" for number of edits made, the  
user's country of origin (even countries they've travelled to!)  
spheres of wiki interest and probably even hobbies!

It is right and logical that user pages shouldn't be indexed.

It is wrong (and "illogical") that zedlock should be listed only on  
Quicksand's user page - it should have a proper page to itself.

I am reminded of my previous post over a reluctance by users to edit  
the wiki - perhaps Quicksand was being modest in not creating a new  
page for his own software, perhaps he didn't wish to create a new  
page because he felt that the wiki "belongs" to Openmoko or to  
Brenda. Whatever, that information should probably be moved to a new  
page (although I have to admit to being reluctant myself to edit  
someone else's userpage!!).

Stroller.


On 17 Jul 2008, at 16:31, Scott Derrick wrote:

> to me a site index is a site index.  If its not complete it should  
> state
> so at the top in bold print.
>
> It makes no sense to only show some of the Wiki, isn't the point of  
> this
> thing to provide full access to the community?
>
> Scott
>
>
> Scott
>
> Steven ** wrote:
>> That's a user page.  I can understand why that wouldn't show up in  
>> the
>> index.  Make the zedlock section a real page first.  And tag it with
>> the "Software" category.
>>
>> However, I can't imagine a hand-edited index to ever be accurate for
>> more than a day.  I'd stick with the auto-generated index pages like
>> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Software
>>
>> -Steven
>>

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Re: Ears and FR - Display Locker

[Stroller]

On 17 Jul 2008, at 08:03, Nicolas Pichon wrote:
> 
> Why not using this one :
>
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:Quicksand#zedlock
>
> I like the idea of drawing a 'Z' anywhere on the screen. Comparing  
> to a
> sliding-cursor unlock tool, I see many advantages :

I really like that - it just appears "right" to me. Comparing it with  
the slidelocker page linked to, it just seems better.

Stroller.


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Re: Wiki editors

[Stroller]

On 16 Jul 2008, at 20:09, Michael Shiloh wrote:
> ...
> IIRC these are the volunteers. My apologies if I left anyone off -
> please add yourself:
>
> Josh Monson
> John Reese
> Torfinn Ingolfsen
> Ian Douglas
> Jay Vaughan

I will certainly subscribe & contribute if this is an unmoderated  
list. I'm not going to make a massive time commitment, but would like  
to contribute where I see a need.

Stroller.


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Re: New Freerunner, factory image - "Registering..."

[Stroller]

On 16 Jul 2008, at 18:01, Greg Bonett wrote:
>> ...
>> Anyway, once booted to the factory image I get continuously a
>> "Registering..." message in the top-left corner of the Home screen.
>> After 30 minutes or so this message persists.
>
> Did you get this resolved?  I'm having the same experience right now.
> Still doing some testing though...

Hi there,

Yes, I certainly did. The SIM card was not seated properly.

In fact, I had it in the wrong way around!! This is quite easy to do  
- the cut-out corner of the SIM should face the TOP of the phone;  
once the holder is fully down you slide sideways to lock it - note  
the word "LOCK ->" stamped into the plastic.

I think I read on IRC that a number of other people have had the same  
problem.

Stroller.
  
  

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Stroller]

On 15 Jul 2008, at 19:45, John Reese wrote:

> Stroller wrote:
>> I thought today about starting a "Freerunner usability" page on the
>> wiki, as it seems a very common FAQ on IRC. New users are not
>> satisfied with "the software's not stable yet" but instead want to
>> know "how 'alpha' is it? can I make calls and send texts? how about
>> calendaring?"  Many Linux enthusiasts LOVE the idea of a completely
>> open phone and they're willing to sacrifice features for that right
>> now, because they know (and love!) the fact that Open-Source Software
>> will fix that for them in the future. As long as they can make calls,
>> send texts then they're happy with a alpha software, but one user
>> worries about email or battery life, another needs a browser. It
>> would be great to have a single page one could point them to (perhaps
>> telling them which image to use if they need a specific feature, best
>> call stability or audio quality) - right now I can't find a page that
>> answers their questions, but I don't want to start a new one because
>> *surely* there must already be one??
>
> Perhaps this is what you seek?
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Distributions

That's a pretty good start - thanks for bringing it to my attention.

ISTM that this answers half the question.

What I'm seeing a lot of on IRC is:
 "is anyone using the Freerunner as their main phone?"
 "how reliable is it?"
 "how featureful is it when the FR is used as a main phone?"

The "telephony" line of the Distributions wiki page suggests that  
OM2007.2, FSO, ASU & Qtopia all work equally well.
I don't think that's actually the case, is it?

A thinking-about-buying-a-Freerunner FAQ would be great. The existing  
FAQ is simply too long and cumbersome.

The thing about telling a Linux enthusiast that "it's alpha quality"  
is we're all gung ho to try anyway. We're all glad to fix stuff and  
write bash scripts to the best of our ability, but without a decent  
summary of the status it's kinda hard to know whether our abilities  
meet the challenge.

This is probably better suited to the new wiki list. We'll discuss it  
further there when Steve sets it up.

Stroller.

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Re: In the press. "The OpenMoko wiki - a tangled pile of mostly outdated and incomplete documentation."

[Stroller]

On 15 Jul 2008, at 18:27, Curtis Vaughan wrote:

> Since Ken really liked OpenWRT's Wiki, I looked at it and see they use
> MoinMoin. So, I am willing to set up MoinMoin on a server to be  
> used as
> an FR community wiki.

I don't think that's the problem. I think the problem is with the  
INFORMATION, not the platform it's contained on.

Ken mentions that the OpenWRT Wiki (which I too have found useful) is  
maintained by the developers.

And I think there's a lot of truth in the statement that people are  
reluctant to edit the Openmoko wiki at present.

Do Openmoko's developers spend any time editing the wiki? I know  
they've got loads of other things to do, but maybe just a few minutes  
dedicated each day would provide some direction. One great thing  
about wikis is that you can make a quick edit to them "this doesn't  
work for me, I had to do X" and then someone else can clean up later  
on, "there are two methods of undertaking this task, depending upon  
your hardware version; GTA02 requires X but earlier models require Y".

Someone else suggested that "clean up" tags might be added to  
articles. I think "citation needed", "is this true?" and "GTA01 /  
GTA02 differences?" tags might  be useful, too. As I understand it if  
tags or templates or whatever are used for these then they can be  
summarised by looking at a single "pages which use this template"  
page. This allows contributors to easily see what is in need of  
editing or correction.

Right now I'm happy to edit Wikipedia or OpenStreetMaps, but not the  
Openmoko wiki and I'm not sure why that is. I've seen something  
similar with the Gentoo Wiki, where people seem generally reluctant  
to edit stuff they don't "own". Articles are great and comprehensive  
when someone takes the initiative to start them, but over time they  
become outdated and - after the original author has lost interest -  
no-one takes the time to put much effort into them.

I thought today about starting a "Freerunner usability" page on the  
wiki, as it seems a very common FAQ on IRC. New users are not  
satisfied with "the software's not stable yet" but instead want to  
know "how 'alpha' is it? can I make calls and send texts? how about  
calendaring?"  Many Linux enthusiasts LOVE the idea of a completely  
open phone and they're willing to sacrifice features for that right  
now, because they know (and love!) the fact that Open-Source Software  
will fix that for them in the future. As long as they can make calls,  
send texts then they're happy with a alpha software, but one user  
worries about email or battery life, another needs a browser. It  
would be great to have a single page one could point them to (perhaps  
telling them which image to use if they need a specific feature, best  
call stability or audio quality) - right now I can't find a page that  
answers their questions, but I don't want to start a new one because  
*surely* there must already be one??

Stroller.


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Re: Setting / checking fast charge in /sys/devices/platform/whatever

[Stroller]

On 14 Jul 2008, at 23:17, Al Johnson wrote:
>> ...
>> The wiki [2] says:
>>
>>The battery can be charged using the provided charger (at 1000mA)
>>or from a powered USB port capable of providing 500mA worth of
>>current. Most computers will be able to charge the FreeRunner  
>> without
>>any problems.
>>
>>Charging at 100mA takes 6-12 hours and at 500mA takes 1-2 hour
>>
>>
>> I understood the provided charger was a dumb one and that - because
>> the Freerunner is unable to communicate with it - an unpowered USB
>> connection would be assumed, the Freerunner would act conservatively,
>> only drawing 100mA.
>>
>> Which is correct, please?
>
> The charger is dumb, but has a 47k resistor from the ID pin of the USB
> connector to ground. This allows the Freerunner to identify it as  
> capable to
> provide 1000mA. See the USB Host section of:
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware

Ah, marvellous!

Thank you.

So a full charge using the wall charger takes only 1 hour or so?

Does /sys/devices/platform/whatever have a node for checking charge  
status?

Stroller.

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Re: Keyboard missing forward-slash key

[Stroller]

Nope. And I don't think nano is installed, anyway.

Stroller.


On 14 Jul 2008, at 22:19, Greg Bonett wrote:

> Is there a control key?  If so you could edit with nano.
>>
>> G... forget it.
>>
>> I can enter vi to start editing the file, but having switched to
>> editing mode I can't exit it (back to command mode) because there's
>> no Escape key on the keyboard! Thus I can't save the edited file!
>>
>> Looks like I'll have to wait until I've got networking up, after my
>> 16 hour charge.
>>

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Re: Keyboard missing forward-slash key

[Stroller]

On 14 Jul 2008, at 22:00, ian douglas wrote:

> Stroller wrote:
>>> BTW: Do you need to kill or restart anything after editing
>>> /etc/multitap-pad/im-multipress.conf ?
>
> I don't recall if I did... and nothing in /etc/init.d/ rings a bell.
>
>> I can enter vi to start editing the file, but having switched to  
>> editing
>> mode I can't exit it (back to command mode) because there's no Escape
>> key on the keyboard! Thus I can't save the edited file!
>
> Fun times.
>
> Once you get networking back up, I've put a copy of my file here:
>
> http://iandouglas.com/om/im-multipress.conf

It seems to me that the lack of the slashes on the 0 key must be due  
to a bug or a problem reading the KP_0 line of the file.

In order to overcome this it might be worth:
- slashing-out the + in the .conf file
- changing the order of the characters (putting the + at the end?)
- removing the backslash

I'll maybe try this once I have networking up.

Stroller.


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Re: Keyboard missing forward-slash key

[Stroller]

On 14 Jul 2008, at 21:44, Stroller wrote:
>> ...
>> ... which is why I added the characters to my '1' key. :o)
>
> Ah ha!
>
> BTW: Do you need to kill or restart anything after editing /etc/ 
> multitap-pad/im-multipress.conf ?


G... forget it.

I can enter vi to start editing the file, but having switched to  
editing mode I can't exit it (back to command mode) because there's  
no Escape key on the keyboard! Thus I can't save the edited file!

Looks like I'll have to wait until I've got networking up, after my  
16 hour charge.

Stroller.


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Re: Keyboard missing forward-slash key

[Stroller]

On 14 Jul 2008, at 21:37, ian douglas wrote:

> Stroller wrote:
>> On 14 Jul 2008, at 20:20, ian douglas wrote:
>>> edit /etc/multitap-pad/im-multipress.conf
>>> I added / and | to my '1' key.
>>
>> looking at /etc/multitap-pad/im-multipress.conf it appears
>> that both back- and forward-slashes are mapped to KP_0 on the default
>> factory image.
>>
>> However multiple taps to the 0 key do not produce the other
>> characters I'd expect.
>
> ... which is why I added the characters to my '1' key. :o)

Ah ha!

BTW: Do you need to kill or restart anything after editing /etc/ 
multitap-pad/im-multipress.conf ?

Stroller.

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Re: Keyboard missing forward-slash key (was: New Freerunner, factory image - "Registering...")

[Stroller]

On 14 Jul 2008, at 20:20, ian douglas wrote:

> Ken Restivo wrote:
>>> It is very nice that a terminal app is included on the default  
>>> image,
>>> but I cannot work out how to enter a forward-slash ("/"), so cannot
>>> list /var/log and see if there's anything interesting in there.  
>>> Would
>>> I be best advised to set up USB networking and log in via SSH to see
>>
>> I ran into that immediately. The terminal is unusable without a  
>> slash key. That tells me that nobody is actually using that  
>> terminal app to do anything, but rather that it's only been used  
>> tethered by USB.
>
> There have been several messages on the list about how to manually
> correct this, but I agree, it should be changed for the default build.
>
> edit /etc/multitap-pad/im-multipress.conf
>
> I added / and | to my '1' key.

No network on this Freerunner at the moment, so I can't paste the  
file verbatim, but looking at /etc/multitap-pad/im-multipress.conf it  
appears that both back- and forward-slashes are mapped to KP_0 on the  
default factory image.

This clearly relates to the 0 key, as + is also mapped to this key  
and indeed pressing the 0 key in character mode does indeed produce a  
+ sign. However multiple taps to the 0 key do not produce the other  
characters I'd expect.

Is this a known bug?
Are you using a later firmware image?

I'll update when I have network on my Freerunner, but at present it  
seems that I have some hours to play around with it before I can  
connect.

Stroller.


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Re: New Freerunner, factory image - "Registering..."

[Stroller]

On 14 Jul 2008, at 20:12, Ken Restivo wrote:
> ...
> I ran into that immediately. The terminal is unusable without a  
> slash key. That tells me that nobody is actually using that  
> terminal app to do anything, but rather that it's only been used  
> tethered by USB.
>
> But I looked and couldn't find a bug report on this. Is it possible  
> that nobody has yet filed a bug report to add a slash key to the  
> keyboard?

I haven't yet read the posts alluded to by arne anka & ian douglas,  
but I have now discovered that one can use copy & paste to provide a  
slash. This is clumsy in the extreme, but it will provide sufficient  
slashes for me to edit /etc/multitap-pad/im-multipress.conf, if  
necessary.

Stroller.


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Re: Protective rubber

[Stroller]

On 14 Jul 2008, at 20:36, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote:

> A few weeks ago, I came across this pictures:
> http://www.openmoko.com/opportunities-universities-update.html
>
> Is this only a drawing or can it be ordered from somewhere?
> We are a local group of more than 40 members, and most of
> us would like one of these.


That's really nice, eh? I would surely buy one, too.

Stroller.


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Setting / checking fast charge in /sys/devices/platform/whatever

[Stroller]

Hi there,

It looks like my problem with SIM registration [1] may be easily  
solvable simply by trying a different SIM or reseating the current one.

But because I'm fetishistic about following battery charging  
instructions I don't want to try this (which requires removing the  
battery) until the unit is fully charged.

The wiki [2] says:

   The battery can be charged using the provided charger (at 1000mA)
   or from a powered USB port capable of providing 500mA worth of
   current. Most computers will be able to charge the FreeRunner without
   any problems.

   Charging at 100mA takes 6-12 hours and at 500mA takes 1-2 hour


I understood the provided charger was a dumb one and that - because  
the Freerunner is unable to communicate with it - an unpowered USB  
connection would be assumed, the Freerunner would act conservatively,  
only drawing 100mA.

Which is correct, please?

I decided to try forcing the Freerunner to fast-charge, and a little  
Googling found me the CheckFastCharge-script on the Wiki [3].

Reading checkFastCharge.py I find that it checks '/sys/devices/ 
platform/s3c2410-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0008/chgmode' and that fast  
charging is indicated by "fast_cccv" there.

Presumably this script was written for the Neo1973, however, or a  
different kernel, as on my Freerunner the location is '/sys/devices/ 
platform/s3c2440-i2c/i2c-adapter/i2c-0/0-0073/chgmode' and it  
currently says "fast", not "fast_cccv" (or, for that matter, slow or  
anything like that).

So is "fast" the correct syntax for the Freerunner's chgmode?
Has it somehow detected that the charger is capable of 500+ mA?
Or should I echo "fast_cccv" to that location?
What are the correct '/sys/devices/platform/s3c2440-i2c/i2c-adapter/ 
i2c-0/0-0073/chgmode' values for "slow" and no-charge for the  
Freerunner, please? (using the default factory image)
Or is chgmode simply broken on the Freerunner's default factory image?

TIA for any suggestions,

Stroller.





[1] http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/021677.html
[2] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/ 
Getting_Started_with_your_Neo_FreeRunner#Charging_the_Neo_Freerunner
[3] http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CheckFastCharge-script


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Re: New Freerunner, factory image - "Registering..."

[Stroller]

On 14 Jul 2008, at 19:51, Andy Selby wrote:

> 2008/7/14 Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Anyway, once booted to the factory image I get continuously a
>> "Registering..." message in the top-left corner of the Home screen.
>> After 30 minutes or so this message persists.
>
> Yeah, I get that with my neo1973 from time to time, maybe the SIM
> contacts are'nt touching the phone contacts
> What I do is slide my finger down the SIM holder in the direction it
> locks in, press down on the holder and press down on the battery when
> I insert that.
> It sounds unscientific, but by gar, it works pretty much every time.

Ah! That old chestnut! I have had this many times with other phones.

I'll try this when the phone has had a full charge. Having plugged it  
into the wall and started it charging for the first time I am  
reluctant to unplug it until it is fully charged, as per the  
instructions.

Stroller.


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New Freerunner, factory image - "Registering..."

[Stroller]

Hi there,

So my Freerunner arrived this evening, I plugged it in and started  
charging and it powered itself on. I _love_ that kernel messages are  
displayed during boot-up, and the plastic of the Freerunner's case  
has a really nice feel to it.

Anyway, once booted to the factory image I get continuously a  
"Registering..." message in the top-left corner of the Home screen.  
After 30 minutes or so this message persists.

Cell phone reception in my flat is always a little poor - I have to  
walk to the window if I want an intelligible conversation - but all  
other phones have connected to the phone network fine, SMS'd and rung  
on incoming calls fine when located at my desk.

Could this indicate that my SIM is amongst those which the Freerunner  
doesn't like?

It is a UK O2 SIM, at least a couple of years old, probably several  
and perhaps 7 or 8. It has been used last in my Sony-Ericsson P990i  
which is 3G, but I have no idea if that phone has been used at full  
speed. I find that when I received this P990i, c 15 months ago, O2  
sent me a new SIM which is marked as "3G", but I have never used it  
as the phone "seemed to work fine" with the old one.

It is very nice that a terminal app is included on the default image,  
but I cannot work out how to enter a forward-slash ("/"), so cannot  
list /var/log and see if there's anything interesting in there. Would  
I be best advised to set up USB networking and log in via SSH to see  
what's going on? Having plugged it into the wall and started it  
charging for the first time I am reluctant to unplug it until it is  
fully charged, as per the instructions. So any suggestions of how to  
debug this from the phone's own console would be appreciated.

Stroller. 

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Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)

[Stroller]

On 12 Jul 2008, at 01:01, William Kenworthy wrote:
> ...
> Basicly I know it wont change anything, but it always helps when  
> someone
> points out that your view of the universe isnt the same as everybody
> elses ...
>
> BillK
>
> * not going to reply to anymore on this topic as "minds are fixed in
> cement"

[quoting order rearranged]

Well, these comments apply to both sides of the argument, an argument  
which goes back decades - I certainly remember many posts on Usenet  
about this subject.

The reason I'm going on about this is because I'd like to see a  
consensus.

Sure, like any geek discussing a point, I think my view is the  
"right" and most logical one. I'd like to see people stop using the - 
community list for stuff that would be better posted on -device- 
owners. But if that's never going to happen we might as well let Sean  
get on with it & delete -device-owners.

There must be frikkin' thousands of people subscribed to -community,  
and we're hearing in these threads from only a handful of them.

Please - if you have an opinion, speak up one way or the other. I  
promise I'll shut up about this if everyone disagrees with me, but if  
I don't hear from you I will start (or continue, rather) nagging  
people to post on the "correct" list.

> ...
>>> For this reason, all my OM emails go to one folder, which defeats  
>>> the
>>> reason for having so many lists
>>
>> That is YOUR choice. It doesn't defeat the object for anyone else who
>> chooses to filter their lists differently.
>
> From my point of view you are looking at it back to front - you are
> forcing me to subscribe and manage multiple mailing lists that overlap
> just so I can get a coherent view of OM - why not have two lists as
> suggested [-dev and -user] based on broad categories

We might as well have only ONE list, in that case, openmoko-everything.

> and get the users to filter them ...

But how do the users achieve this? It's simply NOT POSSIBLE to filter  
a single list into two different mailboxes based on message content,  
whereas it is trivial for the user to filter *openmoko* into a single  
email mailbox.

So if we're going to continue the "you're forcing the burden upon me"  
argument it is FAR LESS of a burden for those who want to use a  
single mailbox to filter on their local mail client (a one-off setup  
procedure) then it is for those who want different topics separated  
to suffer the clutter and mess of a single list (as this is a  
continuing, ongoing and otherwise insolvable inconvenience).

Stroller.


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Re: [qtopia on freerunner] - What is the right place to discuss Qtopia on Openmoko?

[Stroller]

On 11 Jul 2008, at 19:55, Randy S. wrote:
> ...
> Because it seems to make the FR the closest to actually usable, I  
> am using the Qtopia v4.3.2 image and have run into some issues.  
> Where is the proper place to discuss these things?  Here in this  
> forum, or in a Qtopia forum? Thx!

It's fine to discuss Qtopia on Openmoko on the Openmoko lists.

IMO device-owners, "a list where owners of openmoko devices can share  
their experiences" is the best place for troubleshooting.

Stroller.




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Re: GSM Data (hijacking threads)

[Stroller]

On 11 Jul 2008, at 03:14, Scott Derrick wrote:

> When i "finally" get my FreeRunner is there an application available
> that will display GSM data?

   Could you please not use reply for starting a new thread?
   Your mailer is smarter than you:

   http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-July/021026.html

My email client allows me to right-click on a recipient of an  
existing message and choose "new message", creating an empty message  
that does not hijack the thread. Perhaps yours also has this facility?

Stroller.

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Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)

[Stroller]

On 11 Jul 2008, at 02:44, W.Kenworthy wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-07-10 at 15:41 +0100, Stroller wrote:
>>
>>> Or to merge them?
>>
>> Yikes! Please no!
>>
>
> Keep in mind that:
> The more lists you have, the more fragmented the data is and the  
> harder
> it is to both find relevant data (generally you have to be a member of
> the list), and get participants to threads.  The less likely mail goes
> to the correct list, the less likely those who "need" to see it (vs
> those who just want it) are likely to see it.

In making these remarks you don't address any of my comments  
regarding the clutter of unwanted topics.

> For this reason, all my OM emails go to one folder, which defeats the
> reason for having so many lists

That is YOUR choice. It doesn't defeat the object for anyone else who  
chooses to filter their lists differently.

> - so all I have is the annoyance of
> managing the procmail filters ...

I don't use procmail, but with maildrop it is trivial to regex  
anything Openmoko-related into a single folder.

I have recently started separateing the -device-owners & -community  
lists, but last week I was using:

   if ( /^X-Beenthere: .*openmoko.org/ )
   {
   log "---  
OpenMoko List "
   to "${MAILBOX}/.Geek.Linux.Lists.OpenMoko"
   }

> and suddenly discovering that emails I am
> interested in have been going to a list I wasnt aware of.

It's not that hard to make yourself aware of the other lists.

I don't wish to be aggressive with you - I'm just making a point -  
but is it my fault if you're too lazy to check out the other lists  
available?

Users should become aware of the other lists pretty quickly when it  
is pointed out to them, "hey, this is more suitable for -device- 
owners, please post there".

Stroller.

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Re: real audio streams in OM

[Stroller]

On 10 Jul 2008, at 15:40, arne anka wrote:
>
> mplayer is available. imho it's able to handle those.

You neglected Mr Paulson's comment:

   "even the implementations that use mplayer rely on windows dlls"

Certainly mplayer on my PS3 does not play Real streams as it does on  
my Pentium 4 (it simply fails on PS3).

On my distro media-video/realplayer is masked on PPC, and IIRC  
unmasking it leads to an installation failure.

I am obliged to download Real streams on my Pentium and re-encode  
them in another format before I can view them with mplayer on my PS3.  
I would _love_ to hear how to play them directly.

Stroller.

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Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)

[Stroller]

On 10 Jul 2008, at 09:21, Benedikt Schindler wrote:

> I also didn't know about these other list.
> and i'm not subscribed to it. but i think if all questions that  
> belongs
> to a real problem with the
> device are placed to that list, there wouldn't be a reason to  
> listen to
> this list here.

Well, that's up to you.

> and you could rename this list from "community" to "fancy litle
> discussions of features that maybe will never exist" (a little bit  
> long
> so :) )

To be completely honest, I rather feel the same way about many of the  
discussions here.
Not that that has prevented me from participating in them, of  
course.  ;)

I would like to see device-owners get far more use for genuine  
problems (& help fixing them) so that it's not cluttered with such  
"silly" discussions.

Such "silly" discussions as "I have a great idea!" (that you've all  
heard 1000 times already), "lets all bitch about the glamo / GTK  
toolkit / Freerunner production" and "this software is licensed under  
terms which aren't `free enough`" are inevitable, and I would just  
prefer to see them in the "right" place.

I will have a Freerunner of my own in a week or two, and I would like  
to be able to concentrate on a device-owners list filled with hands- 
on discussion (rather than the existing conjecture).

> if i had a problem and look over the mailing lists i definitly  
> would ask
> the community for help.

I would prefer to ask device-owners, rather than people who are  
subscribed merely because they may plan to buy a Freerunner v4 in the  
future.

> Q: what would be a community mailing list that doesn't talk about  
> there
> existing freerunners?
> A: a list where i have to unsubscribe, because it's just flooding  
> my inbox.

I think there's a place for many of us to subscribe to both. Those  
who are owners may discuss also on community depending upon how much  
time we have this week. Community doesn't mean "I don't have a  
device" but perhaps "you don't need a device to discuss this".

If you have a current Freerunner you can say that that, and you can  
compare existing features, when replying to Openmoko's request for  
wish-list discussion. But you don't need one.

If we have only a single list then such discussion will drown out the  
rapid response of "have you tried the 2008-11-04 kernel?", "yes, I  
get this in dmesg" and so on.

Stroller.


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Re: which list to write to (was Re: x offset in landscape mode)

[Stroller]

On 10 Jul 2008, at 07:17, Michael Kluge wrote:

>> Further to the recent "questions about our mailinglists" thread, ISTM
>> that this is more suitable for device-owners than the wider community
>> list.
>> As I see it you have a device in your hand and you want to hear from
>> other users who have devices in their hands => device-owners, "a list
>> where owners of openmoko devices can share their experiences".
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/
>
> Hmm. That would apply to all:
> * no quick fix for my GPS
> * my SIM does not work
> * gta02 won't charge
> threads as well?

Yes.

I think the device-owners list is ideal for these topics, whereas  
community is more appropriate for:
* whose idea was the Glamo, anyway?
* oh, noes! the GTK toolkit bitch thread.
* I have this great idea for an app (which I'm unable to produce any  
code for at the present time).
* Freedom of Openmoko & other Open-Source Software stuff.

I have only just become aware of the two lists myself and to avoid  
antagonising people I'm refraining from posting too frequently "you  
should've posted to the other list".

Unless there are objections I plan to point out the alternative list  
only once per day and only on fairly new threads, before they become  
too long.

> It is probably the best idea to write to both lists (I was not  
> aware of the other list up to now).

Urg, if you must, for the present.

IMO it's better if the "correct" list was simply addressed in the  
first place.

> Or to merge them?

Yikes! Please no!

If you read Sean Moss-Pultz's post "Re: [Fwd: questions about our  
mailinglists]" (9th July, 2008 04:02:36 BST) he has decided not to do  
this for the present. This is pending more discussion, but it also  
gives us users the chance to get our list-usage right.

> As more freerunners
> are beeing shipped the difference in #people subscribed to both  
> lists should
> become rather small.

I would disagree. There will always be people coming in saying:
* can the Freerunner do X?
* I have this great idea!
* should I wait for the GTA12 revision?

The nature of the Openmoko development process is that there will  
always be new models coming up in the future and discussion of them,  
which would clutter a list intended for user-to-user discussion of  
problems and trouble-shooting.

One might imagine that in 6 months time [EMAIL PROTECTED] might ask,  
"what features do you want on GTA06?" - it might be right for  him to  
illicit feedback from device-owners, but I would encourage him to  
request replies to -community. Otherwise the long threads of  
speculation will fill the list and cause discussions of problems  
(starting the X-server, transferring contacts by bluetooth &c) to  
become overlooked.

Stroller.


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Re: x offset in landscape mode

[Stroller]

On 9 Jul 2008, at 20:28, Michael Kluge wrote:
> ...
> I have a slight problem with the landscape mode. It seems that the  
> touchscreen subtracts some value from the x position where I  
> touched the screen with the stylus. The y value seems to be fine.  
> If I tap on the '+' on the bottom of the screen it looks like I  
> tapped the 'home' icon. I this a known problem? Has anyone tried  
> the landscape mode and found that everything is OK?

Further to the recent "questions about our mailinglists" thread, ISTM  
that this is more suitable for device-owners than the wider community  
list.

As I see it you have a device in your hand and you want to hear from  
other users who have devices in their hands => device-owners, "a list  
where owners of openmoko devices can share their experiences".
http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/

I hope you're not offended by this suggestion, and I hope you get  
helpful replies.

It might be beneficial to state that you're using a Freerunner  
(rather than the earlier Neo 1973) and to mention which firmware  
image you're using on it (even if just to say "I'm using the firmware  
that came on it from the factory").

Stroller.


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Re: Import Contacts

[Stroller]

On 9 Jul 2008, at 16:26, smurfy - phil wrote:
>
> i added a small script and infos at:
>
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Import_Vcf_Contacts
>
> how to import vcf contacts to the default 2007.2 contacts application

Further to the recent "questions about our mailinglists" thread, ISTM  
that this is more suitable for device-owners than the wider community  
list.

Stroller.
  

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Re: [Fwd: questions about our mailinglists]

[Stroller]

On 8 Jul 2008, at 10:56, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 3:40 PM, arne anka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
> wrote:
>>> Please keep device-owners and community.
>>
>> shouldn't community members and device owners more or less be  
>> congruent,
>> now the freerunner is in the world?
>
> Possibly.
> My observation is that any (ok, most) threads on the community
> mailinglist tend to evolve into a lot of
> 1) wishes for things that aren't in the devices today
> 2) requests / demands that things should be done differently
>
> which is good for future, but not so ood for specific question about
> current devices and current software.
> ...
> Well, it depends on what information you want. If you skip
> device-owners, you miss a lot of specific information about the
> devices and software, and the testing that owners do.
> I find that useful enough that I invest the little time extra to read
> that mailinglist as well.

I have messages from all Openmoko mailing lists filtered into a  
single mailbox, so I hadn't noticed the distinction between community  
& device-owners.

Reading your comments I think this might be a really good distinction  
to keep and I'm inclined to set up separate mail folders for the  
Openmoko lists. I think the result would be a concentration of more  
interesting posts.

Perhaps regulars could become more militant about replying "this  
should be on -community" and "replying to the correct list, -device- 
owners"?

Sean - you say in your post of 8 July 2008 14:27:41 BST that you're  
inclined to remove 'device-owners'. Can I ask you to consider a while  
longer, please? We're talking about circa 100 messages per day, so it  
might be best not to be too hasty. Maybe you could simply combine  
'openmoko-devel' and 'distro-devel' into a single 'devel' list for  
the present and revisit the community & device-owners decision after  
some more discussion, perhaps waiting a few weeks?

Stroller.


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Re: questions about our mailinglists

[Stroller]

On 8 Jul 2008, at 12:57, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 1:44 PM, matt joyce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
> wrote:
>> Can you elaborate please (not for the sake of debate, I'm just  
>> curious
>
> No, I'm not going to restart that discussion. The last time it lasted
> for more than a month, wasting lots of time for anybody reading this
> list, and even more for those participating in the discussion.

Maybe you could simply link to the discussion, then?

FWIW I prefer the mailing list subject lines as they are.

[openmoko-users] preppended to the subject line just adds clutter and  
reduces the useful description of the subject that can be used in  
that line. Only so much fits in the list of messages in the mail- 
client's window and [openmoko-users] isn't as useful as "Bug with  
libfoo.so.1 and SMS sent from Nokia 800. Endianness problem?"

Prefixing [openmoko-users] or whatever can cause quite a bit of mess  
if messages are cross-posted between lists or redirected from one  
list to the other ("this shouldn't be on -dev, so I'm replying to - 
users").

As I understand it people who really want the list name added to  
their subject lines can do so by (invoking sed from?) their own  
mailfilter / procmail recipes.

Stroller.


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Re: ancient hardware?

[Stroller]

On 7 Jul 2008, at 04:02, Ajit Natarajan wrote:
> ...
> The Calypso GSM chip dates back to 2000.  This is from the leaked
> hardware definition manual revision history [3].
> ...
> I haven't looked at the other chips.
>
>  From the above, the GSM chip looks ancient. ...
>
> So, I don't understand the comments on ancient parts.  What have we
> compromised on by choosing these parts?

It seems to me that the Freerunner lacks only a couple of features of  
other more modern phones.

Some people want a camera, but *shrugs* that doesn't bother me. I  
assume the decision to omit this was not related to the openness of  
the hardware, probably because the Neo was based on a previous design  
(which FIC undertook for someone else who subsequently abandoned  
their project?).

I don't know why the Glamo was included. You don't mention this in  
your commentary. (And, again, this doesn't bother me, as I want to  
run email & calendaring apps on my phone, not video).

Basically the big compromise was 3G. IMO it's the only thing that  
justifies the "ancient" claims.

Stroller.


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Re: freerunner shipment confirmation?

[Stroller]

On 4 Jul 2008, at 23:19, Jayesh Salvi wrote:
... I believe the 3rd step was my credit card specific which did  
some kind of verification for my Chase Visa credit card.


This is quite common - I've known UK Visa cards to do the same thing.  
I never quite grok the security logic of taking you to a Visa site  
and getting you to enter your date of birth, mothers' maiden name &c  
*during* a transaction (which they always do the first time you use a  
card). If the card-provider wishes to something unique during credit- 
card transactions then the authentication should be set up in ADVANCE.


At the end of 3rd step I got some error and couldn't proceed or go  
back from there. I however received an email confirmation for that  
3rd step from Visa.


What concerns me is, I did not get any confirmation email that  
OpenMoko has received my order successfully. ... But should I be  
getting any confirmation/receipt of transaction from OpenMoko or  
from the third party site that processed my order?


Was it really necessary to post this question to the list? Couldn't  
you have just emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead?


I appreciate that Openmoko has these great community lists to make  
use of, but this seems to me to be a standard ordering enquiry. In  
the case of a credit card transaction query when ordering from any  
other online shop, you'd just email them direct.


Stroller.

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Re: not being able to use Skype is a big problem

[Stroller]

On 3 Jul 2008, at 18:45, Forrest Sheng Bao wrote:

Well, I happen to have a bunch of friends which are not tech geeks,  
as well as my family members. They can follow instructions to use  
Skype without bothering me.


This is the same open/closed problem that exists with many protocols.  
I find it inconvenient chatting to people on the MSN or Yahoo!  
messenger networks, and later Word documents feature password  
protection which may render them difficult to read in other word- 
processors.


Plus, I am using SkypeIn/SkypeOut plan. I don't have a cell phone.  
So I hope I can continue using it on my new handset.


Well, if you have a new Openmoko handset one would expect you to get  
a cell phone plan.


PS: If you wanna call a traditional telephone from a VoIP client,  
there must be a company providing the service to bridging Internet  
and telephony network, right? Do you have such open source  
solutions? I think the company need to pay money to telephony  
service operator. Who will pay it?


This is basically the same as the SkypeOut plan you mention. You pay  
for that, right? The difference is that, using a standard SIP client,  
you have a choice of multiple providers (who may offer competing  
rates and quality of service) and you may run the telephony-out on  
your own landline.


Skype is great for individuals - if we ignore the Freedom element of  
the software & service - but SIP allows you much more flexibility.  
Sure, there would appear to be fewer people using standard SIP  
(although here in the UK many broadband suppliers offer discount /  
free phone plans which involve connecting a standard telephone  
handset to a DSL router which has a telephone socket and runs SIP  
software) but you can certainly make free internet calls with it. Not  
only that, but you can enable multiple clients to do so at one  
location, transfer calls cleverly between them, do call-forwarding,  
and if they need to phone out to the conventional telephony network  
then one billing account can be used for multiple users (presumably  
giving cost savings).


Geeks like SIP because they can run it on their own Linux server or  
choose to rent hosting. They can run clients on their PCs, on Macs on  
under Linux, on any mobile handset they like. We can rent multiple  
phone numbers - with non-geographic area codes (0845 or freephone),  
or with area codes in London or Los Angeles - and then do what the  
heck we like with those calls. We can answer them at the telephone on  
our desk or with software on our laptops; we can route them to  
different destinations depending on the time of day and allocate  
different extensions to different desks in the office. Outgoing calls  
can be routed by different providers depending upon costs - SIP can  
be used to link branch offices with free internet calls (multiple  
calls simultaneously) and calls outside the office can go through an  
ISDN bank, if you prefer that to paying someone else for point-of- 
presence on the POTS network.


If you have friends who use Skype there's not much you can do about  
it - evangelising SIP is about effective as telling them to use Linux  
instead of Windows - but outside of the free calls there are VERY  
many advantages to open protocols.


Stroller.



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Re: Bluetooth Headset compatible to Freerunner?

[Stroller]

Sorry to take so long to reply. The free email provider I use for  
mailing lists has been dodgy the last few days, and this morning 300+  
messages arrived in my Openmoko mailbox.


On 30 Jun 2008, at 14:10, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> ...
> I'm searching for a bluetooth headset with 2 ears and 1 mic that I  
> can connect to the Freerunner, so I can hear music...and if a call  
> comes in, I press a button (at the headset or at the neo, that  
> doesn't matter) and then I can hear the other person over the  
> headset and speak with him/her over the mic of the headset.
>
> Is that possible? Where can I find such headsets?

Hi there,

I'm interested in this type of headset, too.

The Sony Ericsson HBH-DS205 looks nice - I assume it has a microphone  
built in to the "clip" unit? - but £40 (from an Amazon reseller) is a  
little more than I'd prefer to pay.

I have these alternatives bookmarked at present:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/6zf6lx
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5knqh7
http://preview.tinyurl.com/5dews6
   [sorry - this last link adds to cart, but I can't find any other  
way to link to this site.
You may need to click on "view cart" to view the actual headphones]

I'm able to find a poor review for each of these products, but the  
most prominent Amazon reviews give them each 5 stars. Since there  
seem to be a couple of people here who are very happy with the HBH- 
DS205, I can't rule that out, but I would love to be able to consider  
these three headsets, too.

Stroller.


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Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)

[Stroller]

On 28 Jun 2008, at 03:05, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 22:11:06 +0100 Stroller  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>
>>
>> On 27 Jun 2008, at 19:01, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Can someone explain the rationale for the decision
>>> to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko
>>> to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)?
>>
>>
>> Rasterman is the rationale, as far as I can make out.
>
> i had nothing to do with it. i, in fact suggested to keep the  
> current gtk apps
> as-is

I apologise. It just seemed that this change occurred without  
explanation when you came on board. A message you posted some time  
ago evangelising E16 (??) firmed the impression that the new  
environment was your innovation.

> just improve the "desktop environment". others at openmoko insisted  
> even
> on just qtopia - no x11. they wanted qtopia because for them "it  
> worked". we
> ended up with a compromise of a port of qtopia on x11 - but then  
> also needing a
> custom wm.

I have to say that I find it a bit odd running X11 on a mobile phone  
- a WM wouldn't be required without it - when an alternative is  
possible. In fact, as far as I can ascertain an alternative already  
exists. X11 seems logical to me for desktop computers, but not for a  
device which will only ever have one main window on the screen at a  
time. I had mistakenly understood earlier Openmoko builds to be non- 
X11 (i.e. qtopia-ish?)

Stroller.
  

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Re: rationale for ASU (and change from GTK to Qt)

[Stroller]

On 27 Jun 2008, at 19:01, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:

>
> Can someone explain the rationale for the decision
> to switch from the original GTK based OpenMoko
> to QT based version known as April Software Update (ASU)?


Rasterman is the rationale, as far as I can make out.

Stroller.


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Re: Community Initiative GTK. X11 on ASU?

[Stroller]

On 27 Jun 2008, at 16:56, Marcus Bauer wrote:

> On Fri, 2008-06-27 at 17:27 +0200, Francesco Cat wrote:
>> I must have missed something... Can you post some links to explain
>> what are the future plans for the Software Stack? Will GTK not be
>> present any more?
>
> Basically Openmoko has stopped the development of the GTK stack in  
> order
> to start a new stack called ASU. There are some 10.000 developers for
> GTK who can start any time making software for the Neo while there are
> very few developers for ASU, maybe 50. ASU is only used on the Neo ...

Am I right in understanding that the earlier software stack wrote GTK  
to the framebuffer, whereas the ASU required the incorporation of an  
X11 server to the image?

Stroller.


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Re: Group Sales and Technical Questions

[Stroller]

On 26 Jun 2008, at 17:38, Yuval Levy wrote:

> Hi, interested newbie here.
>
> Is Group Sales <http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales> still open?

Wikis are self-editable. Add yourself to the list and see if anyone  
local is organising a group order.

IMO if you're not in a group order already it'll probably be a piss- 
up in a proverbial trying to arrange one.

> I am in Canada, but would prefer a world model (900/1800/1900MHz)  
> rather
> than an North American model (850/1800/1900MHz). Is it possible to  
> put a
> world model in a box of North American models?

It has been frequently stated here that group orders are for lots of  
10 only, and that the group price does not apply to additional units  
(eg. if you order 12 then the additional 2 units are at full price).  
I would expect, therefore, that the lots of 10 would all have to be  
of the same model and that if you want a different model then you'd  
have to make a solo-order. I can't recall if this has been confirmed  
on the list.

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OT: Zimbra & iCal

[Stroller]

On 23 Jun 2008, at 16:05, Joseph Reeves wrote:
> ...
> http://www.zimbra.com/forums/zimbrame-j2me-client/12642-vote-phones- 
> zimbra-j2me-client.html
>
> For those that don't know, Zimbra is an awesome email/collaboration
> suite, they're asking for people to vote on the next mobile platform
> that their client will be released on.

A bit of Googling indicates that Zimbra supports iCal (Apple iCal  
and, presumably, other iCal-standard clients).

This allows syncing of calendar contacts across multiple machines &  
devices without using Zimbra's own client. You should be able to use  
the Thunderbird calendaring program, for instance, and have your  
spouse add appointments to your diary from iCal on her Mac.

Has anyone used this?

I had been planning to implement Apple's open-source iCal server, but  
it's not generally packaged for Linux - so requires download from  
SVN, manual wossisnaming of dependencies and compilation from source  
- and seems to be a bit of a "moving target" at the moment. Although  
I find that Zimbra isn't packaged for my distro (Gentoo) there does  
seem to be a lot more documentation on Zimbra (including how to get  
it running on Gentoo), and it's surely more mature than Apple's iCal  
(on a Linux host, at least).

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OT: Symbian mobile platform to be open-sourced under the Eclipse Public License.

[Stroller]

The demand for converged mobile devices is accelerating. By 2010
we expect four billion people to have joined the global mobile
conversation. For many of these people, their mobile will be their
first Internet experience, not just their first camera, music player
or phone.

Open software is the basic building block for delivering this  
future.

With this in mind, industry leaders are coming together to establish
Symbian Foundation, to bring to life a shared vision and to create
the most proven, open and complete mobile software platform -
available for free...

The Symbian Foundation platform will be available to members under
a royalty-free license from this non-profit foundation. The Symbian
Foundation will provide, manage and unify the platform for its
members. Also, it will commit to moving the platform to open source
during the next two years, with the intent to use the Eclipse Public
License. This will make the platform code available to all for free,
bringing additional innovation to the platform and engaging even a
broader community in future developments.

The platform will be free and open to develop on from the start
whether you are enthusiast, web designer, professional developer
or service provider. To develop on the platform you will not need
to be a member of the foundation. ...

http://symbianfoundation.org/

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Re: Why not use forum?

[Stroller]

On 18 Jun 2008, at 12:45, Ewan Marshall wrote:
> ...
> Also how do you get unread message notification on forums?
> ... forums only do whole threads, not individual post in thread.

I've started using a new forum recently, there being no mailing-lists  
I can find for this particular subject, and am reminded how damned  
irritating this is.

The forum software shows which threads have new messages, but when I  
click on them I'm shown the whole page of upto 40 messages. I scroll  
through them and find something interesting, only to realise that I  
already read that message yesterday. I then have to scroll all the  
way to the bottom of the page to work out which messages within the  
thread are new. If the thread is a long one I have to then go to the  
next page & do the same thing again.

This is the fundamental failing of forums, IMO, but the lack of  
automatic quoting is also a considerable hindrance. As the thread   
drifts away from the original topic you can't tell who is replying to  
whom. It is impossible to know what someone is referring to when they  
make a short post such as "I have that one too, and it's great" - is  
it the original device described in the message topic, or the  
alternative suggested by Dave a few posts in?

I wanted to vent my dislike of forums when Leonti posted his first  
message over a week ago, but refrained because I knew I could easily  
spend an hour detailing all forums' shortcomings and because I knew  
that many others would contribute and save me the bother. These two  
points are a good summary of what pisses me off most about forums,  
though.

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Re: speech -> text on FR?

[Stroller]

On 16 Jun 2008, at 01:34, Dan Staley wrote:

> I actually just interfaced with the Sphinx project at one of the
> research positions I hold.  It is actually a very well written  
> interface
> (for the most part...there were a few things poorly documented and/or
> implemented)

Apparently the Openmoko GSoC contributor has also found this:
http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-June/018752.html

He's following the list, so I'm sure he'll be along shortly.  
Hopefully you'll be able to give him some pointers.

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Re: Invisible Shield

[Stroller]

On 16 Jun 2008, at 01:35, Ajit Natarajan wrote:
> Joerg Reisenweber wrote the following in response to my post:
>> Hey, Ajit.
>> I already told you they shall apply directly by using their official
>> office
>> address, so we have some guarantee they intend to do some useful
> thing > and
>> will send back the device. Please don't nag.
>> /jOERG
>
> So, I'm guessing that he is taking care of this.

jOERG's message sounded to me like he was waiting for Invisible  
Shield to get in touch with him.

Whatever.

I hope that one way or the other this'll get sorted. It'd be really  
nice to have the protecter already when my Freerunner arrives, so  
that it gets covered from new & remains pristine.

I haven't tried this invisible shield thingy, but it does look the  
bee's knees. I already have screen protectors on my DS-Lite and my  
PSP, but I would probably have bought the Invisible Shield instead,  
if I'd known about it.

Stroller.


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Re: Why not use foru

[Stroller]

On 15 Jun 2008, at 15:15, Shawn wrote:
>
>> There is no need to delete email when you use IMAP; email doesn't  
>> use that much space, and, unless you use a terrible client,  
>> nothing will slow down from having mail going back forever.
>
> Tell that to the IT department at work. They've recently lowered  
> our email storage limits on the M$ exchange servers.

What part of "unless you use terrible [software]" don't you understand?

;)

Exchange stores large numbers of messages in a single binary file (I  
think the *whole* message store for the server, or the whole message  
store for each user). So one can easily imagine performance  
constraints would exist reading messages into memory which would not  
bother a proper IMAP server loading a single text file from disk.

Stroller.

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Re: G3. Was: GTA03: New case? Bigger screen!

[Stroller]

On 15 Jun 2008, at 05:54, Nigel Cunningham wrote:
> ...
> Or maybe I am just ignorant. Can you do sending
> and receiving email and so on with GSM, or is that 3G only?

GSM is fine for this.

> ...
> I'd really rather buy a Freerunner, but at the moment I'm not sure  
> what
> to do. I currently have a Nokia 3210 that spends most of it's time
> turned off and forgotten, and a Palm Zire 21 that gets wiped if the
> Nokia does something wrong (apparently not shielded that well). I'd  
> like
> to replace them both by one thing, and I want that one thing to be  
> Linux
> based and open source. At the same time, though, I want it to be  
> useful
> for a long time. 3G seems to me ignorant mind to fit that bill better
> than GSM.

I'm not sure what the big deal is with 3G.

My misconception was that GSM was only "dial-up speed", but someone  
recently posted here stating otherwise. Someone debated with him over  
his terming GSM as having "ADSL speed", but if it's 2 or 3 times  
faster than 56k then that's fine by me. I can do all my email &  
websurfing quite happily at that speed, and since my current 3G  
mobile is painfully slow when coverage is spotty I can't see that it  
makes much difference.

As I understand it GSM *does* allow you to make a digital data  
connection, and that's the important thing.

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OT: Nokia expects open source developers to accept things like DRM, commercial IP rights, and SIM locks.

[Stroller]

   Open-source developers targeting the mobile space need to learn
   business rules including digital rights management, Nokia's software
   chief has claimed.

   Speaking at the Handsets World conference in Berlin on Tuesday, Dr
   Ari Jaaksi told delegates that the open-source community needed to
   be 'educated' in the way the mobile industry currently works, because
   the industry has not yet moved beyond old business models.

   Jaaksi, Nokia's vice president of software and head of the Finnish
   handset manufacturer's open-source operations, said: "We want to
   educate open-source developers. There are certain business rules
   [developers] need to obey, such as DRM, IPR [intellectual property
   rights], SIM locks and subsidised business models."

   Jaaksi admitted that concepts like these "go against the open-source
   philosophy", but said they were necessary components of the current
   mobile industry. "Why do we need closed vehicles? We do," he said.
   "Some of these things harm the industry but they're here [as things
   stand]."

Full article:
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2008/ 
gb20080612_288518.htm
or 

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

[Stroller]

On 12 Jun 2008, at 03:19, Kevin Dean wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 7:35 PM, Joe Pfeiffer  
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>  If I don't get a phone, I shouldn't have to pay for one.
>
> Walk into T-Mobile or AT&T and  buy a phone and sign up for a
> contract. Write down how much you pay. Walk out, put that phone in
> your car and walk back into the store and sign up for the same
> contract without a phone. Write THAT price down. Compare and you'll
> see they're the same.

I think your replies to this thread started when I said "OMG!  
WTF!?!?!?" in reply to a statement like that.

Here in the UK the prices would certainly NOT be the same.

Checking AT&T's website it does indeed seem the situation is  
different in the US. I went to the website, clicked the "shop for  
tariffs" ("shop for plans"?) link and was unable to complete the  
checkout process without selecting a handset. To a European, this  
seems about as antiquated as being required to rent your landline  
handset from the phone company (which indeed was the case when I was  
a child, 25 years ago).

> You're not arguing you shouldn't have to pay for a phone, you're
> arguing that you should be allowed to dictate the level of profit
> someone else's company is able to make on transactions.

Hmmmn... IMO you're taking Mr Pfeiffer's "should" a bit literally here.

Certainly from my point of view, I am astounded at the opportunity  
the US carriers appear to be missing out on. They could easily  
advertise "got a handset from your old contract? Save 25% on you  
monthly bills - try our new SIM-only tariffs!" Think of how the  
customers would come flocking to them.

The scenario you describe means that whenever one finishes one's  
contract the old mobile phone is garbage. It's chucked away and  
becomes landfill. I can't see how this benefits anyone except the  
foreign manufacturers of phones. The carriers have to stock,  
inventory & finance handset stock, and the consumer ends up paying  
more. It just seems insane to me, and that's what surprised me.

(OTOH: I now understand that the iPhone truly does only cost $199, if  
one prefers monthly billing to PAYG SIM cards).

Stroller.

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Re: comparing Apples and Oranges $199 iPhone Freerunner GTA02

[Stroller]

On 11 Jun 2008, at 09:34, cedric cellier wrote:
> ...
> Anyway, I wouldn't call a way to easily share content like mails,
> contacts, calendar events, and even files, a "step backward". At the
> contrary, this is one of the biggest trouble for me with FOSS.
> Think about what a pain it would be to install and maintain a
> Kolab server (for instance) accessible from openmoko and some desktop
> linux, with good performance and ease of use. Now look how simple
> MobileMe is.

It would (surely?) be equally simply to rent an account on a shared  
Kolab server, but this is the difference between the iPone & Linux  
markets. Mac users have for years been paying for the (dreadful) dot- 
Mac service and think nothing of it, whereas a geek will not see the  
need to spend money on something he can install on his existing file- 
server.

Stroller.

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Re: Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price

[Stroller]

On 11 Jun 2008, at 13:55, Shawn wrote:

> My question is this:
> say I buy a freerunner, but decide to switch to AT&T as my provider  
> (as I plan to do in the near future), will they not hit me with a  
> contract agreement anyway? Isn't that how you get the cheapest  
> minute/plans?

They may do it differently in the US (woah! Europe's market  
regulation might be good for the consumer!?!?!) but here in the UK  
the contract agreement is cheaper if you bring your own phone.

Sure, a contract gets you the cheapest minute/plans (as long as you  
use them), but there's "cheapest" and cheapest.

Here in the UK millions of people have old mobile phones they've  
already paid for, or on which the contract has already expired. Sure,  
they may go with O2 or Vodafone for their next contract because they  
get a "free" iPhone, but those existing unlocked phones don't get  
chucked in the landfill. So I go to Vodafone and say "I've got this  
old phone that my brother's throwing away, and I'd like a contract  
please"; if Vodafone only offer me a contract which includes a  
replacement phone then that new phone has to be paid for somehow in  
the terms of the contract; if I go to O2 instead and they say "ok,  
you don't want a new phone" then obviously they can make the contract  
cheaper.

I am staggered this seems to be so difficult, and I'm not sure  
whether it's that the carriers make it so difficult in some parts of  
the world, or simply that the concept is so difficult to some people.

Stroller.

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Re: SIM cards for Freerunner (was Free Runner price vs iphone 3G price)

[Stroller]

On 11 Jun 2008, at 15:44, Joe Pfeiffer wrote:

> ian douglas writes:
>> Joe Pfeiffer wrote:
>>> when I went to get a sim card to use in my moko, I was
>>> unable to find one without getting a subsidized phone to go with it.
>>
>> TMobile did this for me in about 15 minutes at one of their  
>> stores, and
>> I didn't even have my Neo with me at the time. I simply told them  
>> I had
>> an unlocked international GSM-capable phone and I just needed a  
>> SIM card
>> for it.
>
> Did you get a lower price on your contract than you would have with a
> phone?  Yes, they would have let me pay for a subsidized phone without
> giving me the phone...

Where the heck are you?

To the British it is quite *obvious* that a contract without a phone  
is cheaper.

The most obvious example of this is that one can choose how much to  
pay up front - on can choose the phone "for free" with one set of  
tariffs, or pay £75 on purchase and get the same number of minutes  
for £10 a month less (on an 18-month contract, for example). One can  
also get much cheaper contracts when no phone purchase is involved.

Stroller.
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Re: Click Feedback?

[Stroller]

On 10 Jun 2008, at 14:13, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> ...
> we have been shipping pulseaudio (which is quite a CPU hog on embedded
> systems) on our rootfs for quite a while now. The main reason not  
> to use alsa
> directly was because of mixing, since alsa dmix absolutely does not  
> cut it.
> ...
> If we were to get rid of it, we could ditch pulseaudio and go  
> directly to
> alsa. This means no longer being able to mix sounds, but rather  
> stick them
> into a queue and play them sequentially.

Hi Mickey,

In reading this I'm struck by the last paragraph, and not the "click  
feedback" example you give.

Someone else has already mentioned SMS notification whilst listening  
to music, but also my GPS concept is affected. If a driver is  
approaching an accident blackspot he cannot afford for notification  
of that to be queued to play after some other application is finished.

Stroller.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 - product management, features & assumptions

[Stroller]

 manufacturers "muddy up" the phones  
they aim at girls and little old ladies (excuse me) by including the  
ability to copy & paste; Apple have realised that only a minority of  
business-phone users want or need that.

The Neo & Freerunner have both been "smartphones", and that's surely  
the interest that draws Linux users to this list. We want to be able  
to shell into our unix servers, read PDFs and so on. The idea of an  
open phone fires our imagination because we can integrate our  
contacts from our LDAP servers and our diary with an iCal server, we  
can do whatever the heck we want with Openmoko - we want to ADD  
features, not remove them.

In the context of that, does animation and transparency matter? Heck  
no! We want a phone that displays text & icons on the screen, and as  
long as the phone does that quick enough, we don't want you wasting  
resources on trying to make the "experience" more flashy.

There has been mention in these threads about the screen requirements  
of smaller phones. I can only conclude from this that FIC are  
planning to leverage their experience in building smartphone hardware  
in order to break into to the larger market of small "girlie" and  
"soccer mom" phones. Fine, but please don't do this at the expense of  
your smartphone market. Honestly, I don't see how you can do this  
well, without castrating your power-phone offerings.

Parts of this conversation have focussed on making a "use case" for  
VGA screens, but please, FIC management, make a use case for  
transparency and flashy animations before having Carsten work on it.  
Whilst I was writing an Apple spam arrived here, promoting today's  
new iPhone announcement - I clicked on the link to iSteve's  
presentation. The "enterprise" take-up from Fortune 500 companies was  
surely impressive, but this leverage is because of Exchange- 
compatibility and all the features that OS X gives to the iPhone for  
free, not the flashy animations. This is where Openmoko can compete.

I could write a lot, LOT more here,

Stroller.




















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Re: regarding the 'data security' thread recently

[Stroller]

On 10 Jun 2008, at 14:08, Benedikt Schindler wrote:
> Ilja O. schrieb:
>> About data wipe:
>>
>> I was thinking -- doesn't eny SIM card have some kind of ID number?
>> And if they do, do we have software way to obtain it?
>>
>> Phone could wipe itself if another SIM card is inserted AND upon SMS
>> message receiving.
>
> ... by the way : to what phonenumber will you send a sms when the  
> thief
> has replaced the sim card?

LOL.

This was my first reaction, too, and was just about to post to the  
list and ask the same question when I realised the answer.

The new phonenumber doesn't matter, because it'll wipe the phone when  
the thief's friend sends them a text message.

Having said that, why wait for an incoming text?
Why not just have the phone wipe itself when the SIM card changes?
You just need to store the original SIM ID in flash memory and check  
against it at start-up. The software can add an additional function  
for "change SIM card" which will allow the user to do so safely ("add  
SIM card" is probably better - if it allows the phone to check  
against a whitelist of multiple SIM cards then users can swap between  
two tariffs easily, without having to worry about activating this  
function EVERY time they do so).

The erasing of personal data can be done silently without alerting  
the user (thief), and doesn't need to interfere with an additional  
feature of "phoning home" its details in the event of theft .

Stroller.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Stroller]

On 9 Jun 2008, at 17:52, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen wrote:
> ...
> I am more and more convinced that QVGA would be good enough for
> _most of the future users_. The reasons:
> ...
>  - Calendar is not an (real) issue

Tell that to one of the people who've raised that subject here on  
this list. Just because it's not an issue for you, doesn't mean it's  
not a real one for them.

IMO the calendar problem is only the tip of the iceberg - it is only  
ONE example where screen real-estate makes HUGE difference.

Openmoko's openness allows a wide variety of new applications that  
we've never thought of before, will pull in a huge number of  
developers who will break new ground, simply because they can. I  
honestly don't think we can imagine the applications to which  
Openmoko phones will be put to in a year or two, and I'm sure there  
are going to be many of them for which QVGA doesn't cut it.

> ...
> - Remember all the complaints about "Impossible to view videos on
>GTA02"? That was a huge issue for many people.

That's nonsense, I'm afraid. In one of his earliest posts Carsten  
explained that the workaround for this is to encode the video at  
lower resolution. If you encode the video at 320x240 and play it then  
it consumes exactly the same bus-width whatever size screen you play  
it on (if this problem isn't fixed in other ways on later revisions,  
anyway. doesn't GTA03 do away with the Glamo?).

Stroller.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Stroller]

On 10 Jun 2008, at 02:17, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> browsing full web pages scrammed into a 2.8" screen as many have  
> suggested, is
> really... pushing such a tiny screen far beyond its usefulness. web  
> pages are
> "designed" for 14" or 17" screens or so. squeezing them down into  
> 2.8" is nigh
> madness. it's possible - but vga vs qvga there isn't the factor  
> (imho) :)

I'm sorry, Carsten, but this just makes me think you're nuts. Um, I  
mean, eccentric.

I mean, I know you know loads more about this sort of thing than I  
do, but mobile phone web-browsers are absolutely standard these days.

I can see your point that the size of mobile phone screens makes for  
poor viewing, but that doesn't mean we're not going to do it anyway -  
viewing a webpage when you're out and about is SO tremendously useful  
(maybe not all the time, but when one needs it) that it's got to be a  
design consideration.

And to say that 4 times the pixels makes no discernible difference in  
this? Well, c'mon!

True, there may be many people who never use the web-browser in their  
mobile phone, but my Mum just uses the cheapest mobile phone she got  
for £20 from Tesco. Likewise my ex-girlfriend bought her mobile phone  
because it was pink, or pretty by whatever other criteria is  
important this week.

People buying Openmoko phones will do so because they want to install  
applications (if only one or two) on them, and these are the sort of  
people who will turn to a web-browser when they're stuck for some  
piece of information and away from home.

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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Stroller]

On 7 Jun 2008, at 04:10, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>> ...
>> I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to
>> personally compare VGA & QVGA 2" phone screens.
>>
>> However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is
>> generally quite visible to me.
>>
>> ... Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at
>> high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for
>> me, be better for displaying webpages & PDFs - I'll be able to fit
>> more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller
>> text.
>> ...
> it will be better - of course. what' i'm baffled about is why all  
> of a sudden
> here a lot of "excellent vision gifted" people turn up, whereas in  
> real life i
> never see them... :)

I have to admit that I should have said "my *corrected* eyesight is  
also better than 20/20" to be perfectly truthful, but I do wear my  
glasses at all waking hours.

I do need to get a new prescription at the moment, as it's been 3 or  
5 years since my last one and I have noticed degradation in the last  
few months. My eye tests have, however, been consistent over the last  
15 years - only slightly stronger glasses needed each time, and those  
have always given me better than 20/20 sight - and I'm still very  
aware of VDU quality.

Stroller.


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Stroller]

On 6 Jun 2008, at 23:19, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
>> ...
>> Let's reverse the question - would you reduce the resolution of your
>> desktop system?
>> What do you currently have? 1024*1280 or more?
>> You can still do everything like writing software, e-mail, web
>> browsing, gaming.
>> Probably even faster. But how would it appear? Future oriented or old
>> fashioned?
>
> this is different - because it's me - my eyesight is better than  
> 20/20 and i
> use the highest res i can get, when i can get it as i know i can  
> read my
> miniscule 8pt or less fonts. but no one else can read my screen -  
> they all
> complain that it's too hard and i am forever upping font sizes if i  
> want anyone
> to read something on it. i know *I* am fine with it, but the vast  
> majority of
> other people can't read my screen. this is why i am cutting myself  
> out of this
> - trying to not be personal about it as i know already i'm an  
> exception to the
> rule.

Hi there,

I haven't posted on this topic before because I'm not able to  
personally compare VGA & QVGA 2" phone screens.

However my eyesight is also better than 20/20, and display quality is  
generally quite visible to me.

Your statements have seemed to say that QVGA is "just as good" as VGA  
for most people, and I have been sceptical of this - I find that my  
current phone (P990i) is QVGA, and that is rubbish for viewing  
webpages. Since you have 20/20 eyesight and can view tiny fonts at  
high resolutions I'm inclined to believe that a VGA screen will, for  
me, be better for displaying webpages & PDFs - I'll be able to fit  
more on the screen and my eyesight will allow me to read the smaller  
text.

So my vote is for VGA (or even widescreen VGA, like the PSP?).

Stroller.

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Stroller]

On 5 Jun 2008, at 18:46, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:04:32 Stroller wrote:
>> On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
>>> Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
>>> to hold a stylus?
>>
>> Nooo!
>>
>> Stylii are EVIL!
>>
>> If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for
>> that app on my mobile phone!
>
> A stylus is inevitable given a certain combination of application  
> type and
> physical display size.
>
> That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger- 
> compatible (we
> also hate stylii),

I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be  
finger-compatible, but that "ported" applications are not sure to be  
optimised for finger use.

> _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people
> who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to  
> operate
> with a stylus.

If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that  
doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an  
admission of defeat.

Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko -  
going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the "core  
distro" and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers  
of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile  
Thunderbird   for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny,  
but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely  
to be finger-capable.

Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, "oh, fingers  
don't matter".

There are a dozen "smartphones" out there that I can buy now with  
tiny little touchscreens that need a stylus, but these are used only  
by geeks. The majority of people buy still buy phones with a number  
pad and some kind of navigating aid (a tiny wheel, or joystick nub,  
or up-down-left-right arrow buttons). Why is this? Probably because  
people like using their fingers to access their phone. I know this is  
an old, and perhaps divisive, debate, where never the twain will  
meet, but Openmoko has a great opportunity here to make a phone that  
combines power with ease-of-use. Enable anyone to install extra apps  
on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes  
the device less accessible.

Stroller.


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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Stroller]

On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:

> Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
> to hold a stylus?

Nooo!

Stylii are EVIL!

If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for  
that app on my mobile phone!

vi FTW!

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Re: OT: TinyURL

[Stroller]

On 4 Jun 2008, at 18:12, Joseph Reeves wrote:
> ...
> TinyURL on the other hand... Why would anyone ever use that? I never
> click on links unless I know where they link to. Here's a plan for
> abuse:
>
> 1: Discover browser 0-day exploit
> 2: Put up a gallery of FreeRunner pictures on a website
> 3: Point a tinyurl at the gallery
> 4: Wait until everyone's linked to it and is clicking it
> 5: Change gallery to 0-day exploit
>
> Or even easier:
>
> 1: Link to goatse.
>
> TinyURL takes all the best practice Internet guidlines you try and
> teach people and ruins them all. Can't stand it.

TinyURL itself protects you from this.

All you do is go to <http://tinyurl.com/preview.php>, click on the  
"enable previews" link and it sets a cookie on your PC. Thereafter,  
everytime you click on a TinyURL link it shows you first what website  
the link redirects to, and you then have to click again to make a  
"manual redirection".

Maybe your email client is perfect, and never has a problem with  
mangled URLs, but for the rest of us TinyURL is very useful.

Stroller.
  

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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[Stroller]

On 3 Jun 2008, at 15:15, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:

> ... we at EE are not deciding on key features of future products, we
> are provided with specs on what to design.

Yeah, but you're the guys who can just slip the odd extra chip into  
the design without anyone else noticing.   ;)

If questioned just tell management that Classic FM is required to  
soothe the kernel penguins.

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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[Stroller]

On 3 Jun 2008, at 02:36, Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
> ... GTA03 -the recycled name- (which I'm working on the electric  
> schematics of the device
> right now) is an improved version of GTA02 (if plans don't  
> change ;), fixing
> some "bugs"/annoyances/EndOfLive-chips-issues of GTA02/FR (like  
> kicking
> glamo) and introducing some gimmicks not worth (IMHO) to mention in  
> the tech
> specs (mostly design).
> ...
> GTA04 OTOH is about breaking new shores trying to bring exiting new  
> power to
> the Neo line.

Since you're the guy working the electric schematics of the device,  
can I ask you to consider an FM radio receiver in future iterations,  
please? GTA04 or 05 or whatever. I believe, from a previous post to  
the list, that this is a particularly popular mobile-phone feature in  
India, but my Sony-Ericsson P990i also has this, and I was using it  
today - it's really much underrated.

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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[Stroller]

On 2 Jun 2008, at 23:44, Sergey Volkov wrote:
> ...
> I have a question regarding future products of Openmoko.
> ...
> Could anybody unveil the GTA03 mystery? What are the hardware  
> specs, will the
> shared-slow-videoRAM-bus issue be fixed (for me it's the main reason
> to wait for the next device)?

Not wanting to denigrate any hard work jOERG (or anyone else at FIC)  
is currently undertaking on the next model of mobile phone, but I  
think most of us have waited long enough for Freerunner, and I think  
you'd be crazy holding off waiting for a later version.

If you look at <http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007- 
October/011217.html> you will see how Freerunner has for ages been  
ready "real soon now". We'd all rather the hardware is released when  
it's good and ready - we don't want to rush the developers, so get  
Freerunner as soon as it's out and don't torture yourself with  
further agonising anticipation.

Stroller.

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Re: FoxyTag

[Stroller]

posed_features/ 
Speed_trap>. Personally, I think this is well and good - the issue  
appears to evoke strong views without much room for consensus (the  
split of opinion seems to be 50/50) and it's less divisive to just  
have a dedicated site for those who want speed-camera data.

Substantially, FoxyTag is written in Java so it can run on a variety  
of closed mobile phone platforms - on OpenMoko we can do far better,  
I think. The phone software is not difficult to write, and alone  
would not be deemed sufficiently complex to justify it as a final- 
year undergraduate project.

The location data is a different matter and, with 5,000 cameras in  
the UK alone, it's not trivial. There are likely users with many more  
local cameras who could contribute more, but I could probably only  
think of 5 cameras to contribute to a database; some people will wish  
to make use of the system without any location contributions, so I'd  
guess 1000 users is a reasonable estimate  to build up a usable  
database, for the UK alone!

If anyone knows of other sources of speed-camera location data then  
please post them. It's likely that someone else will have something  
like this working on OpenMoko before I get my ass in gear enough to  
do anything about it. That's why I post my thoughts any time I see  
something about GPS - hopefully I may influence the motivated author.  
Foxytag do give an email address on their participate page, if "you  
want to do a new client that is compatible with FoxyTag", so should  
one get a proof-of-concept working on OpenMoko they're surely worth  
contacting.

Stroller.


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Re: FoxyTag. Political aspects.

[Stroller]

On 2 Jun 2008, at 20:29, Robin Paulson wrote:
> 2008/6/2 Mathieu Rochette <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> I recently discover the foxytag project . I'm wondering if this  
>> apps could
>> run on the freerunner, if so I'll definitly buy one :D
>
> hopefully not, those things are odious.
>
> maybe stick to the speed limit?

Hi there,

Can we try to avoid a flamewar on the list, please?

Stroller.

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Re: Map Overlay OF Wiki

[Stroller]

On 2 Jun 2008, at 10:14, Lasse Poulsen wrote:

...
I've made some calculations on relations between number of visitors  
and

population of the countries. ...
PDF:
http://static.silenzio.dk/om/wiki.openmoko.org_pop.pdf


Considering the effort you've put into this I hope you'll forgive me  
for mentioning that it needs a (bar?) chart, so that one can actually  
visualise the results.


Numbers are dry, boring and unable to fulfil my desire for instant  
gratification.


Stroller.

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Re: Freerunner v. HTC v. ....

[Stroller]

On 24 May 2008, at 11:45, Al Johnson wrote:

On Saturday 24 May 2008, Ajit Natarajan wrote:
It would be great if someone who has used or is otherwise aware of  
the
feature sets of the Freerunner, HTC, and other smart phones to  
compare

and contrast these.

I was especially worried about a posting a day or two ago saying that
the Freerunner is 1990s era hardware.  I would like to know what  
makes

the hardware 1990s era.


I don't think you have much to worry about on the hardware front.  
Here's the

spec of the HTC TyTN according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_TyTN

...
GPS: only Freerunner


Hi there,

I'm sure you were comparing the Freerunner to a specific model of  
Windows Mobile "smartphone", but I believe other models (of Windows  
Mobile phone) do have GPS. It's a feature of the java version of  
Google Maps for Windows Mobile that it can use the GPS.


Stroller.

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Re: UK Distribution

[Stroller]

On 22 May 2008, at 22:29, Hugo Mills wrote:


On Thu, May 22, 2008 at 05:05:47PM +0100, Alastair Johnson wrote:
I was going to post this under the European Distribution thread  
but it seems to have drifted off topic. Shameless self-promotion  
follows...


We will be selling the Freerunner in the UK. The details are still  
being worked out, but if you register we will keep you updated as  
things change.


https://www.truebox.co.uk/trueboxportal/index.php?wk=OpenMoko


   One thing that's unclear is whether the European distributors, such
as yourselves, will be selling the 10-packs as well as single phones,
or whether those are only coming from OpenMoko in the USA. Are you
able to give an answer to this question at this point?


Indeed.

I'm not sure if the group sales thing is going to work in my area,  
and the £20 saving of the 10-pack doesn't bother me too much, but I  
do want the headset and whatever "goodies" are available as part of  
the 10-pack. I'm almost tempted to buy a 10-pack myself and whack the  
other 9 on fleaBay, but I don't think my credit card would stand it.


If Truebox can offer the goodies then I'd love to purchase from them  
- 420 Silbury Boulevard is just down the street from me, in fact, so  
it would be easy to collect my Freerunner the *moment* it arrives.  
I'll pop in for a chat tomorrow, Alastair, and scrounge a coffee from  
you.


Stroller.
 
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Re: Mapless GPS

[Stroller]

On 22 May 2008, at 11:27, Alexey Feldgendler wrote:



Randall Munroe, the author of XKCD, suggests an excellent idea:
http://blag.xkcd.com/2008/05/20/gps-cyborg-implant/

Simply put, it's a GPS navigator that only repeatedly gives you the  
direction towards the target (in “three o'clock” style) and the  
distance to it, without using any maps at all. It probably won't  
help you in a maze of twisty passages all alike, but should be good  
enough when navigating in a city or suburb where roads are made to  
enable you to reach places.



Blimey! You must be young - you're writing like this like this is a  
new thing!!
When I was using GPS - I bought my first one 10 years ago, but it was  
an end-of-line model then - they were all like this.

<http://www.gpsnow.com/images/gm12b.gif>

You're quite right that this is quite an effective user interface. A  
GPS with full maps and which gives street directions is FAR more  
complex to program, but is not orders of magnitude better at getting  
you to the destination, for all the reasons you observe (although I  
snipped this bit from your post). You basically point yourself in the  
same direction as the needle and don't worry too much about the finer  
details until the needle swings approaching 90 degrees (because it  
obviously tends not to do so until you're very close). Even if you  
already think you're on the right road, the "compass" display is very  
reassuring - one is frequently wary of directions given over the by  
phone by another party, but the needle pointing down the road in  
front of you confirms they're (probably!) correct.


The speech interface is a nice addition, and I would imagine one  
would find it quite useful.


If I suddenly develop oodles of free time and programming insight  
when my Freerunner arrives then this is the first type of GPS I'll be  
writing. I'll leave maps & directions to the boys and girls of Google  
- there's sure to be one or two of their engineers who buy a  
Freerunner, and having used their Java-based Google Maps on my Sony- 
Ericsson P990i (and knowing that the Windows Mobile version can use a  
phone's built-in GPS) I am optimistic that Google Maps will be  
available for Freerunner at some point.


I _really_ want to see an Openmoko application where you can just  
choose a contact and have your position sent to them by text message.  
When their Freerunner receives the message it automagically opens a  
GPS application that points to your position - this would be SO  
useful for meeting up with friends, finding a party or a bar or  
whatever, joining them at a deserted picnic spot in the woods. I  
wrote about this before <http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/ 
community/2008-April/016318.html> and I see no need for something  
more complicated than a "GPS compass" display like this.


Stroller.

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Re: Barometric altimeter on 'future' Freerunner ?

[Stroller]

On 17 May 2008, at 22:17, Philippe Guillebert wrote:

Matthias Schulze wrote:

I am wondering about applications possible with the Freerunner
(connected via usb) or later phone models, if a barometric altimeter
would be included.


Hi,

Err, doesn't GPS give us a pretty accurate altitude already ?


lol.

No.

Event if the precision is something like +/- 20 meters, I believe  
it's got a better accuracy than a barometric altimeter that you've  
got to calibrate to the meteorological conditions all the time.


GPS altitude precision is more like +/- 200 metres. Even cheap  
electronic altimeters are accurate to a few feet. That they need  
daily calibration makes them only of use to people who actually  
_need_ to know their height - an altimeter built into a digital  
watch, for instance, is usually no more than a gimmick, but a hang- 
glider pilot can simply hold down the "zero" button on his £100  
altimeter for 3 seconds and then knows his height accurately for the  
duration of the day's flying.


Stroller.

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Re: IAX2/Asterisk + Openmoko FreeRunner

[Stroller]

On 17 May 2008, at 18:16, Doug Hawkins wrote:

...
There are a few "hassles" with the Nokia software that I'm looking  
forward to making sure are "clean" with the OpenMoko system when I  
get to start playing on one.  One is that on some "free" (airport &  
community) WiFi systems, you have to open a web page and "accept"  
the terms and conditions before it will allow any traffic (VoIP or  
otherwise), so I'd like to make a routine that will run a config  
script to accept the "terms" based on the network I'm connecting  
with (e.g.: look up ESSID in a database to find out that a certain  
webpage's button needs to be 'clicked' and perform that task).  The  
other is to optionally connect to any open WiFi networks as I pass  
through them (ESSID scanning & connect attempts through open AP's).


I'm not sure that this should be handled by the VoIP software.

Although I'd like VoIP on my Freerunner, a greater priority for me is  
that the IMAP client should automatically check for new messages.


On my present mobile (Sony Ericson P990i) one has to open the  
messaging program, select the IMAP account and then "select send &  
receive" from a drop-down menu. That this is so fiddly simply means  
that I never do it, and if I must check for an important new message  
when away from home then the client has to sync through weeks of new  
messages in my inbox (yes, I should keep it more tidy!) before  
downloading today's messages.


I had envisioned writing a Bash script to run in cron every few  
minutes: to switch on wifi, scan for networks and connect to any on  
an "allowed" list; a background IMAP send-and-receive can then be  
performed if a working wifi connection is found. If we are to have  
multiple applications checking for wifi availability then I guess  
that should be done in one place?


Stroller.

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Stroller]

  
_income_ - that's REALLY significant!! FIC doesn't have income at the  
moment, and maybe in a couple of years time FIC'll tear everything  
down and start the software again from scratch (Openmoko-NG) to  
accommodate the language changes you desire. Right now, FIC's  
priority is to get hardware out the door, and to get working phones  
in peoples' hands.


Operating-system language support is obviously something that's  
important to you, but if you take a look at the economic realities, I  
think you'll agree that there's no reason for it to be a priority  
right now (sorry).


Stroller.

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