Re: Finger Graffiti
Are you policing this project for violations? Look, he pointed out a potential trademark issue, which will have to be considered if some sort of ungraffiti is to be distributed. There really isn't any reason to keep going on about it. right. so how would this ungraffiti work, exactly? what about if there's a camera, we move the camera around some handy dot, say the "Sun (tm)" for example, and use it to paint ungraffiti into some sort of action queue? ; ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Giles Jones writes: > >Are you policing this project for violations? Look, he pointed out a potential trademark issue, which will have to be considered if some sort of ungraffiti is to be distributed. There really isn't any reason to keep going on about it. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Bah, forget graffiti! It's too difficult; the computer should be able to help you with it, but it doesn't. It essentially says "do this unnecessary work". Using graffiti is like using a help file. (And I have a pretty long rant on those somewhere). If a really clever person sat down and drew lots of pictures, he might come up with a good messag-ease-inspired input method where fingers are moved in patterns similar to real letters. Letters start being drawn from different places (or at least in different directions), so instead of graffiti, it could be like connect-the-dots. Start your letter in one point, a bunch of dots appear that you can drag your finger to, with labels for what letters those dots would lead to. For example, one dot may be labelled "I", while another could be labelled "L U". You could drag to the "I" dot and lift your finger right there to get the letter "I" (or keep dragging if more dots exist for that letter, though there wouldn't be much point). If you drag to the "L U" dot, new dots appear out of that one for the letters "L" and "U"; drag your finger to the one you want, as with "I". Graphically, there would be no static keyboard graphic; the keyboard would not obscure the screen but rather expand (smoothly) when in use. This would save screen space /and/ look cool. All the different letters could be tied into a nice little database which would contain the paths for different letters. Still no ability to lift one's finger, but since the input would be completely guided, that would not hurt like it does with graffiti! To easily look up letters, paths in the database would have to intersect, consistently, at specific points. I guess a grid (where the size of each box is recorded somewhere) would work there. Thus, each letter in the database would have a whole bunch of grid points stored in the order they must be touched. A program could generate the point that one must be moving from to reach a certain grid point for a letter. Otherwise, completely unrelated letters would pop up from points that happen to intersect with other points! (For example, I on point 0,-3 would require contact last with point 0,3). Some kind of tree would have to exist, generated by a magical program (once), using that direction information, saying what letters can be led to from other letters. That would be entirely to speed things along in the case of really big alphabets, so the computer doesn't have to look through every single letter in the database. For example, "I" at 0,-3 leads to "L" and is the end of the path for "I". Point 0,3 leads to a lot of letters; "I", "L", "J", "U", etc. (Sorry, I seem to have changed the story from that first example :p As I said, we would need someone clever to sit down and figure out the connections). Bye, -Dylan McCall On 7/30/07, David Schlesinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >So by using fingers instead of a stylus we're not talking about the > >same use case anyway. > > That's certainly not clear to me. > > >Are you policing this project for violations? > > Not at all, that's a silly idea; as I've said, I simply _am_ obligated > to point out when a trademark held by my employer is being misused, and > that's simply a condition of having the trademark. > > My credentials aren't at issue: I've got a long-standing involvement in > the community, I've presented at both the Ottawa Linux Symposium and at > GUADEC (of which ACCESS was a sponsor) this year, I'm on the GNOME > Foundation's Advisory Board and I'm the chair of the Linux Foundation's > Mobile Working Group and vice-chair of the Linux Phone Standards Forum's > Architectural Working Group. I've been on this list pretty much since it > existed, and as Sean can confirm, I've had a long-term interest in the > project--he and I have chatted on numerous occasions, and while I'm > still waiting for _my_ unit, I can hang on a while longer... > > Let me add that there was = interest expressed by Mickey Lauer at GUADEC > week before last in using some of the "Hiker Project" components--which > we have made available under an open source license--in OpenMoko, > something I'd certainly encourage. > > Let's be clear: nobody's "violated" anything. I felt it was necessary to > give a heads-up that heading too far in the direction you seem to be > trying to stake out (i.e. "Graffiti _shouldn't_ be a trademark" or > "We're using the term in some slightly nuanced way and claiming it's a > 'different use case'") could be potentially troublesome, if the upshot > of it were to wind up amounting to the creation of a "test case" of > either of those notions. If, say, I _didn't_ point this out and, based > on the discussion, someone started a handwriting-related project called > "moko-graffiti" or something, that _would_ be troublesome. Just sayin'. > > I think I've pretty much made the issues clear, and there doesn't seem > to be anything useful being added here. If anyone wants to delve further > into this, they're welcome to e
Re: Finger Graffiti
What the fuck is even going on here?! On 7/30/07, Giles Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On 30 Jul 2007, at 15:35, David "Lefty" Schlesinger wrote: > > > Trademarks exist in specific contexts for particular usages, > > they're not > > a global thing. I'm obligated to deal with trademark law as I find it; > > if you wish it were something different, you'll need to write your > > Congressional representative... > > So by using fingers instead of a stylus we're not talking about the > same use case anyway. > > I'm in England, so there's no such thing as a congressional > representative. MP is the term here, don't assume everyone is from > the US. > > Are you policing this project for violations? > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On 30 Jul 2007, at 16:08, David Schlesinger wrote: Not at all, that's a silly idea; as I've said, I simply _am_ obligated to point out when a trademark held by my employer is being misused, and that's simply a condition of having the trademark. True, but these are just ramblings, the inner workings of a project. I'm sure at Microsoft they don't avoid using people's trademarks in internal discussions? It is the individual who mentions the idea and implements it who is responsible for it. If the OpenMoko project decides to merge it into the core code then it becomes the responsibility of the project. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On Jul 30, 2007, at 4:35 PM, David Lefty Schlesinger wrote: Trademarks exist in specific contexts for particular usages, they're not a global thing. I'm obligated to deal with trademark law as I find it; if you wish it were something different, you'll need to write your Congressional representative... US Congress is a fictionary hussle perpetuated by criminals somewhere over the horizon, in many decent places. 1000-moko airdrop over zimbabwe in t-minus, 54 .. 53 .. 52 .. ; ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Finger Graffiti
>So by using fingers instead of a stylus we're not talking about the >same use case anyway. That's certainly not clear to me. >Are you policing this project for violations? Not at all, that's a silly idea; as I've said, I simply _am_ obligated to point out when a trademark held by my employer is being misused, and that's simply a condition of having the trademark. My credentials aren't at issue: I've got a long-standing involvement in the community, I've presented at both the Ottawa Linux Symposium and at GUADEC (of which ACCESS was a sponsor) this year, I'm on the GNOME Foundation's Advisory Board and I'm the chair of the Linux Foundation's Mobile Working Group and vice-chair of the Linux Phone Standards Forum's Architectural Working Group. I've been on this list pretty much since it existed, and as Sean can confirm, I've had a long-term interest in the project--he and I have chatted on numerous occasions, and while I'm still waiting for _my_ unit, I can hang on a while longer... Let me add that there was = interest expressed by Mickey Lauer at GUADEC week before last in using some of the "Hiker Project" components--which we have made available under an open source license--in OpenMoko, something I'd certainly encourage. Let's be clear: nobody's "violated" anything. I felt it was necessary to give a heads-up that heading too far in the direction you seem to be trying to stake out (i.e. "Graffiti _shouldn't_ be a trademark" or "We're using the term in some slightly nuanced way and claiming it's a 'different use case'") could be potentially troublesome, if the upshot of it were to wind up amounting to the creation of a "test case" of either of those notions. If, say, I _didn't_ point this out and, based on the discussion, someone started a handwriting-related project called "moko-graffiti" or something, that _would_ be troublesome. Just sayin'. I think I've pretty much made the issues clear, and there doesn't seem to be anything useful being added here. If anyone wants to delve further into this, they're welcome to email me off-list. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On 30 Jul 2007, at 15:35, David "Lefty" Schlesinger wrote: Trademarks exist in specific contexts for particular usages, they're not a global thing. I'm obligated to deal with trademark law as I find it; if you wish it were something different, you'll need to write your Congressional representative... So by using fingers instead of a stylus we're not talking about the same use case anyway. I'm in England, so there's no such thing as a congressional representative. MP is the term here, don't assume everyone is from the US. Are you policing this project for violations? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Giles Jones wrote: > Except that OpenMoko is a completely made up phrase which has no other > use in the English language. That's completely irrelevant, I'm afraid. (By the way, there was a "Cafe Moko" right around the corner from my hotel in London; I've got a picture of the sign someplace...) > > Graffiti is a dictionary word. Trademarks against dictionary words are > stupid. Microsoft should never have been able to trademark Windows > either. Trademarks exist in specific contexts for particular usages, they're not a global thing. I'm obligated to deal with trademark law as I find it; if you wish it were something different, you'll need to write your Congressional representative... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On 30 Jul 2007, at 14:57, David "Lefty" Schlesinger wrote: system and implementation of that system, and no other. Sean and team will be obliged to do precisely the same sort of thing if they become aware of someone (mis)using the "OpenMoko" trademark in some way that they didn't intend. Except that OpenMoko is a completely made up phrase which has no other use in the English language. Graffiti is a dictionary word. Trademarks against dictionary words are stupid. Microsoft should never have been able to trademark Windows either. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Jay Vaughan wrote: it just happens that Graffiti is what people know "finger painting on your PDA" to be .. its common enough to warrant usage as a word referring to the activity of finger-painting symbols for recognition on a devices surface. No, sorry, this is incorrect, and precisely _why_ I have to point out that Graffiti is a registered trademark: it is _not_ a generic term for "finger painting on your PDA", "Graffiti" refers to a specific writing system and implementation of that system, and no other. Among this group of hackers and individuals willing to bleed on the edge of gadget land, the common-realm use of the term "Graffiti" is, most definitely, applicable. Nobody here in openmoko listville is, yet, a casual nor commercial, nor even consumptive, user. The OpenMOKO device is itself establishing its first stage of activity strictly in -developer- land. "Graffiti" is as good as saying "Hypercard Stack" in such company. I might be wrong about that shortly, or in your specific case, but I feel the need to point out among the legalese that if we say "Graffiti" here, it is probably triggering at least 37 or so different individual subscribers internal "state machine mechanics", in a variety of programming languages, who have implemented such call- lists and search trees required to implement 'a graffiti', commonly and for some various uses, regardless of mark. Tho' quite definitively, in trade. Language is not a product. The reason for mentioning trademark status is specifically to keep it from _becoming_ a generic term (like "zipper", "kleenex" and, to an extent, "xerox", have become generic terms), and is something which, as I've said, holding a trademark obligates the owner to do. Sean and team will be obliged to do precisely the same sort of thing if they become aware of someone (mis)using the "OpenMoko" trademark in some way that they didn't intend. This is basic trademark law, I'm afraid. Well, hand-scrawl defeats law, I'm afraid. ; ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On 30 Jul 2007, at 15:02, Jay Vaughan wrote: i'm rather fond of using xyz position sensors to roll balls around word-chains, myself .. in my opinion there definitely ought to be more 'game' in the interface of handheld toys, and we all know games riff and rip freely at great will, regardless of mark nor trade. that said, i don't really think the limits have even been moderately primped in regards to handling the touch-screen in responsive ways. yes, stylus+WIMP==short-term hack but deep down inside we all long for the true death of windows (based GUI's) in the pocket. as we are definitely seeing around the gadget-sphere, any action that comes naturally for the user is far more progressively used. the iPhone, for example, is definitely one for wankers and twiddlers, if you'll pardon my deutsch .. I suspect when I see a Neo in the flesh that a normal 0-9 abc def type keyboard will probably be the easiest keyboard given the limited size. I have a Nintendo DS lite and that has a 3 inch screen which looks too small for QWERTY. Maybe if landscape it would just about be usable for QWERTY. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
I just think it's a bit rich to be following this project if you don't care about creative freedom. I'd much sooner create a new input system anyway. i'm rather fond of using xyz position sensors to roll balls around word-chains, myself .. in my opinion there definitely ought to be more 'game' in the interface of handheld toys, and we all know games riff and rip freely at great will, regardless of mark nor trade. that said, i don't really think the limits have even been moderately primped in regards to handling the touch-screen in responsive ways. yes, stylus+WIMP==short-term hack but deep down inside we all long for the true death of windows (based GUI's) in the pocket. as we are definitely seeing around the gadget-sphere, any action that comes naturally for the user is far more progressively used. the iPhone, for example, is definitely one for wankers and twiddlers, if you'll pardon my deutsch .. ; ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Jay Vaughan wrote: > it just happens that Graffiti is what people know "finger painting on > your PDA" to be .. its common enough to warrant usage as a word > referring to the activity of finger-painting symbols for recognition > on a devices surface. No, sorry, this is incorrect, and precisely _why_ I have to point out that Graffiti is a registered trademark: it is _not_ a generic term for "finger painting on your PDA", "Graffiti" refers to a specific writing system and implementation of that system, and no other. The reason for mentioning trademark status is specifically to keep it from _becoming_ a generic term (like "zipper", "kleenex" and, to an extent, "xerox", have become generic terms), and is something which, as I've said, holding a trademark obligates the owner to do. Sean and team will be obliged to do precisely the same sort of thing if they become aware of someone (mis)using the "OpenMoko" trademark in some way that they didn't intend. This is basic trademark law, I'm afraid. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
You're correct--I was thinking patent issues rather than trademark issues. Joe Pfeiffer wrote: Here's the most important thing I'm going to say in this message: IANAL, so everything I write below is speculation. Michael Welter writes: Rude or not, I'm posing a question to the community. If our developments do infringe on someone's patent, who are they going to sue? Me? You? FIC? All of us? A minor point -- of course, we're talking about trademarks here, not patents. Let's say we had a multi-touch display, and 20 developers developed some scrolling gestures. Who is Apple going to sue? Seems like the normal action in a lawsuit is to go after everybody in sight, especially the ones with deep pockets. So I'd guess, at a minimum, the twenty developers and FIC. But... it's awfully hard to prove damages when something is distributed for free. And the current patent situation is so chaotic that nobody really knows who is infringing on what patents, nor whether those patents would be found valid if the lawsuit happened. That's especially true now that the (US) Supreme Court has demanded that the lower courts apply a less ridiculous standard for obviousness than they had been. Combine that with some really big guns out there (especially IBM) donating several hundred patents with a no-sue pledge, contingent on people using those patents not suing free software developers, and I'm not worried about infringing patents. I have a lot more respect for a real trademark owner (as opposed to the various scum out there who have tried stunts like registering a trademark on Linux before Torvalds did) than I do a possible patent. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On 30 Jul 2007, at 11:21, Ortwin Regel wrote: Worrying about worrying about the trademark issue is even more irrelevant. Pointing things like this out early is a good thing. Further discussion about the trademark issue isn't necessary, though, it's annoying. What if they contribute software to the project and then claim it infringes their patents? I just think it's a bit rich to be following this project if you don't care about creative freedom. I'd much sooner create a new input system anyway. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Agreed. So can we try to maintain focus on the immediate tactical and technical advances that we can actually accomplish? ; On Jul 30, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Ortwin Regel wrote: Worrying about worrying about the trademark issue is even more irrelevant. Pointing things like this out early is a good thing. Further discussion about the trademark issue isn't necessary, though, it's annoying. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Worrying about worrying about the trademark issue is even more irrelevant. Pointing things like this out early is a good thing. Further discussion about the trademark issue isn't necessary, though, it's annoying. Ortwin On 7/30/07, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Jul 30, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Rod Whitby wrote: > >> Ah cripes, who freaking *CARES* about the Graffiti trademark .. > > Hmm ... someone could just as well say: > > "Ah cripes, who freaking *CARES* about the OpenMoko trademark .." > > > > Is someone actually developing something which uses the OpenMoko > properties? I don't think so. > > > Doesn't sound so good when you say it that way, does it? > > > > I'm not saying don't be "trademark-sensitive", I'm saying that > worrying about the Graffiti trademark is irrelevant, because nobody > is putting, actually, Graffiti into anything. There are plenty of > Graffiti alternatives around .. it just happens that Graffiti is what > people know "finger painting on your PDA" to be .. its common enough > to warrant usage as a word referring to the activity of finger- > painting symbols for recognition on a devices surface. Graffiti, > itself, is useless to us. Similar techniques which do not violate > anyones rights are useful; to discuss, to implement, and hopefully to > use. > > > Note that David didn't accuse anyone of breaching trademark rights, he > > simply pointed out that OpenMoko (or anyone else for that matter other > > than the trademark holder) should be careful not to release any > > software > > package with the trademarked term "Graffiti" in it's name. And he > > said > > he would only say it once, so as not to annoy people by continually > > harping on it. > > > > It would have been wonderful advice if there is actually some release > going on. > > > Don't forget that OpenMoko is a company too. You can't favour and > > protect one companies trademarks and not do the same for another. > > > > I don't care about the trademark issue until there is actually > something to attach a mark to. So far, there is nothing in this > direction. All I care about is that the technical creativity not be > stifled by legalese so soon in the game .. > > ; > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On Jul 30, 2007, at 7:50 AM, Rod Whitby wrote: Ah cripes, who freaking *CARES* about the Graffiti trademark .. Hmm ... someone could just as well say: "Ah cripes, who freaking *CARES* about the OpenMoko trademark .." Is someone actually developing something which uses the OpenMoko properties? I don't think so. Doesn't sound so good when you say it that way, does it? I'm not saying don't be "trademark-sensitive", I'm saying that worrying about the Graffiti trademark is irrelevant, because nobody is putting, actually, Graffiti into anything. There are plenty of Graffiti alternatives around .. it just happens that Graffiti is what people know "finger painting on your PDA" to be .. its common enough to warrant usage as a word referring to the activity of finger- painting symbols for recognition on a devices surface. Graffiti, itself, is useless to us. Similar techniques which do not violate anyones rights are useful; to discuss, to implement, and hopefully to use. Note that David didn't accuse anyone of breaching trademark rights, he simply pointed out that OpenMoko (or anyone else for that matter other than the trademark holder) should be careful not to release any software package with the trademarked term "Graffiti" in it's name. And he said he would only say it once, so as not to annoy people by continually harping on it. It would have been wonderful advice if there is actually some release going on. Don't forget that OpenMoko is a company too. You can't favour and protect one companies trademarks and not do the same for another. I don't care about the trademark issue until there is actually something to attach a mark to. So far, there is nothing in this direction. All I care about is that the technical creativity not be stifled by legalese so soon in the game .. ; ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Much as I've liked Graffiti on my Palm... The technology I'm > interested in pursuing on this device is Quikwriting. Really looks > like a best-of-both-worlds to me. > > http://mrl.nyu.edu/projects/quikwriting/ Wow that would be cool. However random pages on the web seem to claim that it is covered by a very general patent. I am not an expert on patents, but here are some links http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-fw/1999-May/000107.html http://www.google.com/patents?id=bVUgEBAJ&dq=5,764,794 "The present invention pertains to an apparatus for electronically storing alphanumeric characters. The apparatus comprises a computer having a memory. The apparatus also comprises a pointing device electrically connected to the computer which serves as a virtual keyboard. Furthermore, the apparatus comprises means for encoding words with alphanumeric characters with a gesture language which is drawn by the pointing device on a surface without the pointing device having to be lifted from the surface. The encoding means is disposed in the memory. The present invention also pertains to a method for electrically storing alphanumeric characters. The method comprises the steps of a) positioning a pointing device electrically connected to a computer to a relative origin on a surface. Next, there is the step b) of moving the pointing device to a predetermined position relative to the origin in a predetermined motion along the surface..." Niels ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Jay Vaughan wrote: >> Michael Welter writes: >>> So, who are they going to sue??? >> Who said anything about a lawsuit? It is their trademark; stepping on >> it would be really rude, no matter who they decided to go after as a >> result. >> > > Ah cripes, who freaking *CARES* about the Graffiti trademark .. Hmm ... someone could just as well say: "Ah cripes, who freaking *CARES* about the OpenMoko trademark .." Doesn't sound so good when you say it that way, does it? The thing about trademarks is that if you don't defend them, then you loose them. Note that David didn't accuse anyone of breaching trademark rights, he simply pointed out that OpenMoko (or anyone else for that matter other than the trademark holder) should be careful not to release any software package with the trademarked term "Graffiti" in it's name. And he said he would only say it once, so as not to annoy people by continually harping on it. Don't forget that OpenMoko is a company too. You can't favour and protect one companies trademarks and not do the same for another. -- Rod ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
I think David went about it as well as he could.. although I feel by using
"Graffiti-like" Nkoli did not breach trademark rights, just used it as an
example. We do need to come up with another name in the near future,
because we cannot release software called Graffiti.
I know most of us are completely against trademarks and patents, but no need
to shoot the messenger. As Jay said, let's focus on the ideas, and just
watch the terminology...
Kyle
On 7/30/07, Jay Vaughan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Michael Welter writes:
> >> So, who are they going to sue???
> > Who said anything about a lawsuit? It is their trademark; stepping on
> > it would be really rude, no matter who they decided to go after as a
> > result.
> >
>
> Ah cripes, who freaking *CARES* about the Graffiti trademark .. can't
> you just overlook this highly dubious legal issue for now and try to
> understand the nature of the point the guy is trying to make - that
> he would like developers to consider adding a symbol-based
> recognition system that would be based on finger movements - and
> leave all the high-falutin' {annoyin'} lawyerin' for the birds ..
>
> Honest, you lawyer types are a pain in the ass. Nobody needs your
> advice until there's actually something tangible going on. Right
> now, this is just a *technical* discussion, and its getting killed by
> non-sequitur snipes from highly irrelevant positions. Leave it out.
> Lets try to allow a little creativity, still, in the world, okay?
>
> ;
>
> ___
> OpenMoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
___
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community@lists.openmoko.org
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Re: Finger Graffiti
Michael Welter writes:
So, who are they going to sue???
Who said anything about a lawsuit? It is their trademark; stepping on
it would be really rude, no matter who they decided to go after as a
result.
Ah cripes, who freaking *CARES* about the Graffiti trademark .. can't
you just overlook this highly dubious legal issue for now and try to
understand the nature of the point the guy is trying to make - that
he would like developers to consider adding a symbol-based
recognition system that would be based on finger movements - and
leave all the high-falutin' {annoyin'} lawyerin' for the birds ..
Honest, you lawyer types are a pain in the ass. Nobody needs your
advice until there's actually something tangible going on. Right
now, this is just a *technical* discussion, and its getting killed by
non-sequitur snipes from highly irrelevant positions. Leave it out.
Lets try to allow a little creativity, still, in the world, okay?
;
___
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Re: Finger Graffiti
On 7/29/07, Giles Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I don't think your finger will slide around the screen easily enough > to make it work. Even if it does it will leave lots of smears on the > screen. Also I don't see that typing is any slower than graffiti if > the keyboard is well designed. I just hate using handwriting > recognition, I've used it on Palm, Windows Mobile and use it now on > my Nintendo DS. > > If you're like me and don't write on paper all that much you get > irritated with having to write very perfectly on such devices, I'd > also say typing uses less effort and you won't get finger/joint ache > if you use it a lot. > > I think the major problem with small screen size and text entry is > seeing the screen with your finger in the way. Yeah, early onset finger arthritis could be an unpleasant side effect. As for the screen, it will have smears already from regular use.. which might actually help with easier sliding. I also find handwriting recognition software quite painful to use, but in conjunction with a smart dictionary to compensate for similar characters (ie recognize that strokes for 9re9t should really be interpreted as great and replace on the fly), the experience might be improved. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Nkoli writes: > >Quikwriting's different-but-easier alphabet implementation is quite >interesting and may be the best way to get good handwriting recognition. I >was thinking handwriting recognition that can be used with fingers because >of all the interest in finger based apps, since most people won't carry >their styli around if the majority of apps are finger based. The first thing I'll be doing with my NEO (let's see... UPS shows it as having been in transit from Albuquerque to here -- about 225 miles -- since Friday. Should be in my hot little hands tomorrow. UPS comes by my house about 7:00 PM...) is making sure it boots. I'm not quite sure what the second thing is going to be, but rigging something to hold a much-less-elaborate stylus is very, very high on the list. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong, but I just can't see finger applications having the same utiity as the stylus applications I'm used to. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On 7/29/07, Joe Pfeiffer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Michael Welter writes: > >So, who are they going to sue??? > > Who said anything about a lawsuit? It is their trademark; stepping on > it would be really rude, no matter who they decided to go after as a > result. Interface would be Graffiti-like (I used upper and lowercase G to denote trademark and such as Giles mentioned). The name would certainly have nothing to do with Graffiti. The words finger + graffiti just happens to be the simplest combination to define what I had in mind. Quikwriting's different-but-easier alphabet implementation is quite interesting and may be the best way to get good handwriting recognition. I was thinking handwriting recognition that can be used with fingers because of all the interest in finger based apps, since most people won't carry their styli around if the majority of apps are finger based. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
RE: Finger Graffiti
>So, who are they going to sue??? Nobody. Having a trademark means defending it in instances where it's used in ways that the holder didn't intend, and I've pointed out that this _is_ one of those instances. I don't intend to continue pointing it out if people persist, but I think I've done my part to indicate that, for example, shipping a handwriting-related module with a name that approximated "Graffiti" would be inconvenient, because we very likely _would_ have to stop that. Just sayin'. Please let's remember that open source rests on a foundation of intellectual property law: without, for example, copyright, there would be no way to enforce the GPL. Using open source and the like fairly means that you expect people to respect your wishes about your intellectual property, so it behooves you to respect the wishes of others... ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Michael Welter writes: >So, who are they going to sue??? Who said anything about a lawsuit? It is their trademark; stepping on it would be really rude, no matter who they decided to go after as a result. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On 30 Jul 2007, at 01:38, David Lefty Schlesinger wrote: Graffiti (as it pertains to handwriting systems) is a registered trademark of ACCESS Systems Americas, not a generic term; you want to find some alternate terminology. Sorry, gotta point it out, it's part of my job... It's a dictionary word and if used in lowercase (without a capital G) then it isn't being referred to as a trademark. We have referred to many brand names in discussions and nobody else has popped up to remind us that it's a trademark of theirs. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
"David \"Lefty\" Schlesinger" writes: >Graffiti (as it pertains to handwriting systems) is a registered >trademark of ACCESS Systems Americas, not a generic term; you want to >find some alternate terminology. > >Sorry, gotta point it out, it's part of my job... Much as I've liked Graffiti on my Palm... The technology I'm interested in pursuing on this device is Quikwriting. Really looks like a best-of-both-worlds to me. http://mrl.nyu.edu/projects/quikwriting/ ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
So, who are they going to sue??? Giles Jones wrote: On 30 Jul 2007, at 00:49, Nkoli wrote: So, there I was pretending my phone has a touchscreen while I wait for GTA02 when this idea popped into my head for a keyboard alternative. I would very much like to hear thoughts. The design would remove the onscreen keyboard completely and replace it with a Graffiti-like interface that can recognize something as wide as a finger or as tiny as a stylus. A couple of icons for a symbols list and other essentials that the user may not want to write out (ex www., .com or greek letters) will be all that's left of the keyboard. For the sake of minimalism, the entire screen, excluding the very top or bottom where the icons are, will be used as the input area. The app should be activated or deactivated with one touch just like the current keyboard. It would have to have some excellent text recognition as well as a built in dictionary to suggest words, which should make up for any holes in the text recognition. Also, a find as you write feature will be handy for finding folders in the main menu, names in the contact list or numbers in the logs, basically reducing scrolling through areas that aren't primarily text based. The benefits of this finger graffiti are that it has a learning curve of zero, eliminates hunting and pecking so anyone can write quickly without needing to get used to the onscreen keyboard. Oh yeah, it's as fast as you can move your fingers and it can easily be done one handed. I have little experience with programming and I hardly do more than write little time saving scripts nowadays, so I honestly have no concept of what such an app would take. What d'you guys think? I don't think your finger will slide around the screen easily enough to make it work. Even if it does it will leave lots of smears on the screen. Also I don't see that typing is any slower than graffiti if the keyboard is well designed. I just hate using handwriting recognition, I've used it on Palm, Windows Mobile and use it now on my Nintendo DS. If you're like me and don't write on paper all that much you get irritated with having to write very perfectly on such devices, I'd also say typing uses less effort and you won't get finger/joint ache if you use it a lot. I think the major problem with small screen size and text entry is seeing the screen with your finger in the way. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Michael Welter Telecom Matters Corp. Denver, Colorado US +1.303.414.4980 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.TelecomMatters.net ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
Graffiti (as it pertains to handwriting systems) is a registered trademark of ACCESS Systems Americas, not a generic term; you want to find some alternate terminology. Sorry, gotta point it out, it's part of my job... Nkoli wrote: > So, there I was pretending my phone has a touchscreen while I wait for > GTA02 when this idea popped into my head for a keyboard alternative. I > would very much like to hear thoughts. The design would remove the > onscreen keyboard completely and replace it with a Graffiti-like > interface that can recognize something as wide as a finger or as tiny > as a stylus. A couple of icons for a symbols list and other essentials > that the user may not want to write out (ex www., .com or greek > letters) will be all that's left of the keyboard. For the sake of > minimalism, the entire screen, excluding the very top or bottom where > the icons are, will be used as the input area. The app should be > activated or deactivated with one touch just like the current > keyboard. It would have to have some excellent text recognition as > well as a built in dictionary to suggest words, which should make up > for any holes in the text recognition. Also, a find as you write > feature will be handy for finding folders in the main menu, names in > the contact list or numbers in the logs, basically reducing scrolling > through areas that aren't primarily text based. The benefits of this > finger graffiti are that it has a learning curve of zero, eliminates > hunting and pecking so anyone can write quickly without needing to get > used to the onscreen keyboard. Oh yeah, it's as fast as you can move > your fingers and it can easily be done one handed. I have little > experience with programming and I hardly do more than write little > time saving scripts nowadays, so I honestly have no concept of what > such an app would take. What d'you guys think? > > > ___ > OpenMoko community mailing list > community@lists.openmoko.org > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community > ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Finger Graffiti
On 30 Jul 2007, at 00:49, Nkoli wrote: So, there I was pretending my phone has a touchscreen while I wait for GTA02 when this idea popped into my head for a keyboard alternative. I would very much like to hear thoughts. The design would remove the onscreen keyboard completely and replace it with a Graffiti-like interface that can recognize something as wide as a finger or as tiny as a stylus. A couple of icons for a symbols list and other essentials that the user may not want to write out (ex www., .com or greek letters) will be all that's left of the keyboard. For the sake of minimalism, the entire screen, excluding the very top or bottom where the icons are, will be used as the input area. The app should be activated or deactivated with one touch just like the current keyboard. It would have to have some excellent text recognition as well as a built in dictionary to suggest words, which should make up for any holes in the text recognition. Also, a find as you write feature will be handy for finding folders in the main menu, names in the contact list or numbers in the logs, basically reducing scrolling through areas that aren't primarily text based. The benefits of this finger graffiti are that it has a learning curve of zero, eliminates hunting and pecking so anyone can write quickly without needing to get used to the onscreen keyboard. Oh yeah, it's as fast as you can move your fingers and it can easily be done one handed. I have little experience with programming and I hardly do more than write little time saving scripts nowadays, so I honestly have no concept of what such an app would take. What d'you guys think? I don't think your finger will slide around the screen easily enough to make it work. Even if it does it will leave lots of smears on the screen. Also I don't see that typing is any slower than graffiti if the keyboard is well designed. I just hate using handwriting recognition, I've used it on Palm, Windows Mobile and use it now on my Nintendo DS. If you're like me and don't write on paper all that much you get irritated with having to write very perfectly on such devices, I'd also say typing uses less effort and you won't get finger/joint ache if you use it a lot. I think the major problem with small screen size and text entry is seeing the screen with your finger in the way. ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Finger Graffiti
So, there I was pretending my phone has a touchscreen while I wait for GTA02 when this idea popped into my head for a keyboard alternative. I would very much like to hear thoughts. The design would remove the onscreen keyboard completely and replace it with a Graffiti-like interface that can recognize something as wide as a finger or as tiny as a stylus. A couple of icons for a symbols list and other essentials that the user may not want to write out (ex www., .com or greek letters) will be all that's left of the keyboard. For the sake of minimalism, the entire screen, excluding the very top or bottom where the icons are, will be used as the input area. The app should be activated or deactivated with one touch just like the current keyboard. It would have to have some excellent text recognition as well as a built in dictionary to suggest words, which should make up for any holes in the text recognition. Also, a find as you write feature will be handy for finding folders in the main menu, names in the contact list or numbers in the logs, basically reducing scrolling through areas that aren't primarily text based. The benefits of this finger graffiti are that it has a learning curve of zero, eliminates hunting and pecking so anyone can write quickly without needing to get used to the onscreen keyboard. Oh yeah, it's as fast as you can move your fingers and it can easily be done one handed. I have little experience with programming and I hardly do more than write little time saving scripts nowadays, so I honestly have no concept of what such an app would take. What d'you guys think? ___ OpenMoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
