Re: [Computer-go] PhD thesis on MCTS

[Hendrik Baier]

Hi Xavier,

I have considered this, but even level-2 Nested MCTS requires quite a
bit of thinking time. Let's say you can do 1000 playouts per second in
your game, and you want to do at least 500 playouts on levels 1 and 2
for each move decision. Assume your playouts have 50 moves on average.
Then we're talking about 3.5 hours per move already...
The numbers are of course all made up but you get the point. Imagine
spending only 10% of that on each move, and then try to play a couple
thousand games for parameter tuning... :) In one-player games this is
much less of a problem because you can do just one search from the
initial position.
If you simply keep your parameter values from lower time settings
however, or if you somehow extrapolate them to such long thinking
times, NMCTS could be an interesting approach for a very slow
two-player game tournament where only one or a few moves per day are
needed. You could possibly draw some qualitative conclusions from it,
even without quantitatively estimating the playing strength very well.

Cheers,
Hendrik

> Thanks, it was nice.
>
> I have a question did you tried to implement Nested montecarlo tree search
> in two player game ?
>
> If I remembered well something like this was envisioned in this mailing
> list.
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Re: [Computer-go] Computer-go Digest, Vol 72, Issue 9

[Yuandong Tian]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for mentioning our team! This is our first tournament. Hopefully we
could do better next time.

Best,
Yuandong

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:00 AM, 
wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Congratulations to Zen! (Nick Wedd)
>2. Re: Congratulations to Zen! (Hideki Kato)
>3. Re: History of influence concepts in go (Ingo Althöfer)
>4. Re: History of influence concepts in go (Nick Wedd)
>5. Re: History of influence concepts in go (Robert Jasiek)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 15:18:21 +
> From: Nick Wedd 
> To: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Subject: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Zen!
> Message-ID:
> <
> caevtg+p7j0-chg0tk9vw90_jd+nbqggdmdts94qdx+jctaj...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Congratulations to Zen19S, winner of the January KGS tournament!
>
> It was closely-contested, with a group of strong players at the top. These
> included a newcomer to these events, darkfmcts3 (Darkforest from the
> Facebook AI Project), which would probably have won with better
> time-keeping.
>
> My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/119/index.html
> As usual, I will welcome your comments and corrections.
>
> Nick
> --
> Nick Wedd  mapr...@gmail.com
> -- next part --
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> http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/attachments/20160110/7c91a2fb/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
> --
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2016 00:34:25 +0900
> From: Hideki Kato 
> To: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] Congratulations to Zen!
> Message-ID: <569279f9.6900%hideki_ka...@ybb.ne.jp>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Dear Nick,
>
> I was surprised this very quick report, thanks.
>
> The Annual Championship is not 2015 but 2016 (and the page is not
> updated yet).
>
> Best regards,
> Hideki
>
> Nick Wedd: <
> caevtg+p7j0-chg0tk9vw90_jd+nbqggdmdts94qdx+jctaj...@mail.gmail.com>:
> >Congratulations to Zen19S, winner of the January KGS tournament!
> >
> >It was closely-contested, with a group of strong players at the top. These
> >included a newcomer to these events, darkfmcts3 (Darkforest from the
> >Facebook AI Project), which would probably have won with better
> >time-keeping.
> >
> >My report is at http://www.weddslist.com/kgs/past/119/index.html
> >As usual, I will welcome your comments and corrections.
> >
> >Nick
> --
> Hideki Kato 
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 20:06:19 +0100
> From: "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de>
> To: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] History of influence concepts in go
> Message-ID:
>
>  >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hello Robert, hello all,
>
>
> > Von: "Robert Jasiek" 
> > On 09.01.2016 22:44, Justin .Gilmer wrote:
> > > influence
> > > = A1 0.3 ...
> >
> > Influence is not a one-value property.
>
> it seems that different people are using the name "influence"
> for different objects/properties.
>
> In the computer go scene, 1-dimensional use goes back to
> Albert Zobrist in his doctoral dissetation from 1970.
>
> Where does your framework for "multi-dimensional" influence comes from?
>
> Best regards, Ingo.
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2016 19:23:46 +
> From: Nick Wedd 
> To: computer-go@computer-go.org
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] History of influence concepts in go
> Message-ID:
> <
> caevtg+mnxaewwchw5jm7ar1h09vszjns-nbrop+e76xfyxg...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello Ingo,
>
> I would assume that Robert is using "influence" as described at
> http://senseis.xmp.net/?Influence
> I think I was aware of this sense before 1970. It is not one-dimensional: a
> shimari is said to radiate more influence along one side than the other.
>
> Best regards,
> Nick
>
>
>
> On 10 January 2016 at 19:06, "Ingo Althöfer" <3-hirn-ver...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> > Hello Robert, hello all,
> >
> >
> > > Von: "Robert Jasiek" 
> > > On 09.01.2016 22:44, Justin .Gilmer wrote:
> > > > influence
> > > > = A1 0.3 ...
> > >
> > > Influence is not a one-value property.
> >
> > it seems that different people are using the name "influence"
> > for different objects/properties.
> >
> > In the computer go scen

Re: [Computer-go] PhD thesis on MCTS

[valkyria]

My first montecarloprogram Viking worked something like this (this was 
before UCT).


It used alpha-beta evaluating each terminal node with 500 simulations. 
But I would do early cutoffs after 50 moves or so if a coinfidence 
interval was outside the current alfa or beta.
This together with heavy playout made it work well enough to compete for 
some time even with the first UCT programs.


Magnus Persson (Viking/Valkyria)

On 2016-01-11 17:15, Hendrik Baier wrote:

Hi Xavier,

I have considered this, but even level-2 Nested MCTS requires quite a
bit of thinking time. Let's say you can do 1000 playouts per second in
your game, and you want to do at least 500 playouts on levels 1 and 2
for each move decision. Assume your playouts have 50 moves on average.
Then we're talking about 3.5 hours per move already...
The numbers are of course all made up but you get the point. Imagine
spending only 10% of that on each move, and then try to play a couple
thousand games for parameter tuning... :) In one-player games this is
much less of a problem because you can do just one search from the
initial position.
If you simply keep your parameter values from lower time settings
however, or if you somehow extrapolate them to such long thinking
times, NMCTS could be an interesting approach for a very slow
two-player game tournament where only one or a few moves per day are
needed. You could possibly draw some qualitative conclusions from it,
even without quantitatively estimating the playing strength very well.

Cheers,
Hendrik


Thanks, it was nice.

I have a question did you tried to implement Nested montecarlo tree 
search

in two player game ?

If I remembered well something like this was envisioned in this 
mailing

list.

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[Computer-go] Go Aesthetics

[Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira]

Hi, some time back I mentioned creating a program that evaluates the 
aesthetics of a game of Go. Has anyone given it some thought? I'd love 
to have a comparison between professional and amateur dan matches, or 
across time periods or players. There are a few papers on aesthetics for 
chess so I don't see why not Go. It shouldn't be terribly difficult to 
make, after deciding on the things to look for. I'd like to kickstart 
this discussion.


For reference:
Advanced Computer Recognition of Aesthetics in the Game of Chess by 
Azlan Iqbal and Mashkuri Yaacob


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Re: [Computer-go] Go Aesthetics

[Steven Clark]

It's an inherently subjective thought-exercise -- ask 10 different players
and you will get 10 different ideas of what constitutes beauty. I'm not
even sure I agree with the metrics proposed in
http://www.wseas.us/e-library/transactions/computers/2008/26-184.pdf for
chess -- why is it inherently more "beautiful" to use a weaker piece as
opposed to a stronger piece?

In go, there are a lot of characteristics that exist on a continuum (e.g.
aggression vs. calm/steady, etc.) Play at either end of the spectrum has
its own appeal.
Metrics one could analyze:
-Willingness to tenuki
-Ability to maintain sente
-Tenacity of attack (how to measure?)
-Efficiency of shape (how to measure?)
-Favoring influence vs. territory
-Preference for invasion vs. reduction
etc.

One would do better to analyze a given player over many games, vs. just
looking at one game (since there is such variability).

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 10:10 PM, Gonçalo Mendes Ferreira 
wrote:

> Hi, some time back I mentioned creating a program that evaluates the
> aesthetics of a game of Go. Has anyone given it some thought? I'd love to
> have a comparison between professional and amateur dan matches, or across
> time periods or players. There are a few papers on aesthetics for chess so
> I don't see why not Go. It shouldn't be terribly difficult to make, after
> deciding on the things to look for. I'd like to kickstart this discussion.
>
> For reference:
> Advanced Computer Recognition of Aesthetics in the Game of Chess by Azlan
> Iqbal and Mashkuri Yaacob
>
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Re: [Computer-go] Go Aesthetics

[Robert Jasiek]

Is playing bad moves good for aesthetics? No? Then why call it 
aesthetics? Call it perfect / good play. The most "beautiful" stone is 
bad if it is dead.


--
robert jasiek
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