[CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
>From Steve Gibson (and his recommendation of a reply to read): The iPhone 4 Antenna Controversy: Given all the evidence, here's my theory in my most recent blog post: http://wp.me/pV3mA-22 -- John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Good analysis and later confirmed by one of the commentators. It is also interesting to note how many of the other commentators just won't let go of the original story. On Jun 28, 2010, at 1:26 PM, John DeCarlo wrote: From Steve Gibson (and his recommendation of a reply to read): The iPhone 4 Antenna Controversy: Given all the evidence, here's my theory in my most recent blog post: http://wp.me/pV3mA-22 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:07 PM, tjpa wrote: > Good analysis and later confirmed by one of the commentators. > > It is also interesting to note how many of the other commentators just won't > let go of the original story. So, what is the original story? I only saw stories about how the antenna design of a stock iPhone 4 is flawed in terms of functionality, meaning that the normal usage of the phone could easily result in signal degradation. Seems to be the same summation in the article you reference. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Also troublesome was that Apple admitted the problem... Spin that, Tom. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 1:07 PM, tjpa wrote: > Good analysis and later confirmed by one of the commentators. > > It is also interesting to note how many of the other commentators just > won't let go of the original story. > > > > On Jun 28, 2010, at 1:26 PM, John DeCarlo wrote: > >> From Steve Gibson (and his recommendation of a reply to read): >> The iPhone 4 Antenna Controversy: Given all the evidence, here's my theory >> in my most recent blog post: http://wp.me/pV3mA-22 >> > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:26 PM, mike wrote: > Also troublesome was that Apple admitted the problem... Did Apple admit to a problem? What was the problem that Apple Corp. admitted to? I only know of Mr, Jobs mentioning the problem of purchasers of the device not knowing how to hold it in a manner that would prevent signal loss although there was nothing in the user manual about that. So, even that fairly important oversight in the manual was evidently not a fault on the part of Apple either as no apology in any form has been forthcoming of which I am aware. Therefore, I am at a loss as to what Apple actually admitted to other than not having enough phones to sell. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
"Gripping any mobile phone will result in some attenuation of its antenna performance, with certain places being worse than others depending on the placement of the antennas. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone. If you ever experience this on your iPhone 4, avoid gripping it in the lower left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal band, or simply use one of many available cases." Sure it's great spin, but they admit that holding the phone in the way 90% of users do will result in signal loss. Like my phone, if I hold it upside down and backwards, sideways to my ear so it's unusable, I tend to lose a little signal. Holding it like a phone however, I've had no signal loss. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 1:56 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: > On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:26 PM, mike wrote: > > > Also troublesome was that Apple admitted the problem... > > Did Apple admit to a problem? What was the problem that Apple Corp. > admitted to? I only know of Mr, Jobs mentioning the problem of > purchasers of the device not knowing how to hold it in a manner that > would prevent signal loss although there was nothing in the user > manual about that. So, even that fairly important oversight in the > manual was evidently not a fault on the part of Apple either as no > apology in any form has been forthcoming of which I am aware. > Therefore, I am at a loss as to what Apple actually admitted to other > than not having enough phones to sell. > > Steve > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 5:04 PM, mike wrote: > "Gripping any mobile phone will result in some attenuation of its antenna > performance, with certain places being worse than others depending on the > placement of the antennas. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone. > If you ever experience this on your iPhone 4, avoid gripping it in the lower > left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal > band, or simply use one of many available cases." > > Sure it's great spin, but they admit that holding the phone in the way 90% > of users do will result in signal loss. Like my phone, if I hold it upside > down and backwards, sideways to my ear so it's unusable, I tend to lose a > little signal. Holding it like a phone however, I've had no signal loss. Thanks for the information. However, that is not really the issue with the iPhone. The issue is that the new iPhone places the antenna, or active portions of it, where it can easily come into direct contact with the hand of the user. Other phones have their antenna systems fully insulated and thus not able to directly contact anything external to the phone itself. While mere proximity of any external conductive material can cause a negative effect on an antenna, were such material to come into direct contact with an antenna, far more serious problems may ensue. This is what is happening with the new iPhone, and this is not the norm for cell phones no matter what Apple says. You say spin, I'll offer disingenuous. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Read Gibson's analysis and you will understand that this is really a very marginal problem. If one has good signal strength it won't matter how you hold the phone. If your signal strength is about to go over a cliff, anything you do can potentially push you over. One of those things is touching the phone in a particular spot. They have already sold 2,000,000 of the new phones so even a 1 in a million problem will have a couple of hits. Back when I used to listen to a radio while commuting I knew to stand in specific spots on the train platform. Moving even a few inches would lose the signal. It is not magic, it is physics. On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:06 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the information. However, that is not really the issue with the iPhone. The issue is that the new iPhone places the antenna, or active portions of it, where it can easily come into direct contact with the hand of the user. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
I say tongue and cheek. Half of what Jobs says is spin or disingenuous. At his heart, he's just a car salesman...good cars though. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 3:06 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: > > > You say spin, I'll offer disingenuous. > > Steve > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
You are right, and for whatever reason Apple ignored the physics. I say it was for form over function, you can deny all you want, but Apple has admitted the problem. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 3:24 PM, tjpa wrote: > > > It is not magic, it is physics. > > > On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:06 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: > >> Thanks for the information. However, that is not really the issue >> with the iPhone. The issue is that the new iPhone places the antenna, >> or active portions of it, where it can easily come into direct contact >> with the hand of the user. >> > > > * > ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** > ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** > * > * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:24 PM, tjpa wrote: > It is not magic, it is physics. Well, then let us sum this thing up. In your view, is there anything whatsoever that is problematic, in terms of the end user of these phones, about how Apple decided to use an antenna system that is highly exposed to direct contact with conductive material that is external to and not a part of the phone itself? Should Apple have insulated the antenna from contact with external conductive material, and made that insulation an integral component of the basic phone package as opposed to offering a separate accessory that performs this function that comes in at 15% of the cost of the phone itself? Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:13 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Well, then let us sum this thing up. In your view, is there anything whatsoever that is problematic, in terms of the end user of these phones, about how Apple decided to use an antenna system that is highly exposed to direct contact with conductive material that is external to and not a part of the phone itself? Some people in marginal reception areas are reporting problems. Some people who had reception problems with previous models are reporting the new model does not have the problem. You need to tell me what proportion of the 1.7 million iPhone 4s sold are having this problem and where they are geographically. Then compare this to the numbers who claim improved reception. Then we can figure out if there is any real problem. Should Apple have insulated the antenna from contact with external conductive material, and made that insulation an integral component of the basic phone package as opposed to offering a separate accessory that performs this function that comes in at 15% of the cost of the phone itself? I would speculate that the purchase price of phone rubbers is not being subsidized by ATT. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:36 PM, tjpa wrote: > On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:13 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Well, then let us sum this thing up. In your view, is there >> anything whatsoever that is problematic, in terms of the end user of >> these phones, about how Apple decided to use an antenna system that is >> highly exposed to direct contact with conductive material that is >> external to and not a part of the phone itself? > > Some people in marginal reception areas are reporting problems. Some people > who had reception problems with previous models are reporting the new model > does not have the problem. You need to tell me what proportion of the 1.7 > million iPhone 4s sold are having this problem and where they are > geographically. Then compare this to the numbers who claim improved > reception. Then we can figure out if there is any real problem. A complete non-answer of the question as posed. >> Should Apple have insulated the antenna from contact with external >> conductive material, and made that insulation an integral component of >> the basic phone package as opposed to offering a separate accessory >> that performs this function that comes in at 15% of the cost of the >> phone itself? > > I would speculate that the purchase price of phone rubbers is not being > subsidized by ATT. Another complete non-answer of the question. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:45 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: A complete non-answer of the question as posed. You just won't accept any answer except the one you are promoting. You don't want reality to get in the way. Experiences http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/iphone4/index.html#d28jun2010 Peter Dy i was on a call (more like on hold) today for around 20 min and during that time i was trying to drop the call by bridging the left upper and lower antennas. in short, i wasn't able to drop the call. i just got down to 1 bar and the call sounded just as good as 5 bars. Robert Wright I have an 3 year old MotoKRZR k1m cell phone. I am in the process of getting an iPhone 4. I can produce the same signal degradation on the MotoKRZR by grasping it in various configurations. I suspect this is characteristic of all cell phones. Don Andrachuk Steve Birchall asked, "...why is this just being noticed on the 4th generation iPhone, and seems to have not been noticed by users of any other cell phone?" Good question! The issue exists for many, if not most, cellphones to varying degrees. This article points out similar findings with the Nexus One and a Nokia handset: http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/24/other-mobile-phones-with-similar-signal-loss-issues/ etc. etc. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:02 PM, t.piwowar wrote: > "...why is this just being noticed on the 4th generation iPhone, and seems > to have not been noticed by users of any other cell phone?" > > Good question! The issue exists for many, if not most, cellphones to varying > degrees. This article points out similar findings with the Nexus One and a > Nokia handset: > > http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/24/other-mobile-phones-with-similar-signal-loss-issues/ Nobody, myself included, has denied the potential for signal degradation were a conductive material to alter the normal characteristics of a cell phone antenna. An antenna that is directly exposed to conductive material is more subject to such adversity as is an antenna of the same design that is shielded, to one degree or another, from such direct exposure. To wit, the simple application of a piece of tape, serving as insulation, over the portion of the iPhone that causes some signal degradation can fix the problem in many, perhaps most cases. To my way of thinking, this is something that Apple should have taken into consideration in a manner other than drooling over all the extra money they could make from those bumper accessories. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] In E-Mail, Steve Jobs Comments on iPhone 4 Minerals
Despite last week’s flurry of bad press surrounding the iPhone 4’s antenna, Steve Jobs is still in a chatty mood about his company’s newest handset. His latest personal e-mail to a customer relates to minerals used to create the iPhone 4 and other Apple products. http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/06/steve-jobs-iphone4/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+wired/index+(Wired:+Index+3+(Top+Stories+2)) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] In E-Mail, Steve Jobs Comments on iPhone 4 Minerals
Yes, Mac owners do have the leisure to worry about such life and death issues. It is a nice benefit that comes from not having to spend all our spare time patch, patch, patching. On Jun 29, 2010, at 12:02 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Despite last week’s flurry of bad press surrounding the iPhone 4’s antenna, Steve Jobs is still in a chatty mood about his company’s newest handset. His latest personal e-mail to a customer relates to minerals used to create the iPhone 4 and other Apple products. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
You clearly did not read 2/3s of my last post. Here is another quote... Martin L While I was worried about antenna attenuation, the reception has improved. I had no coverage in most of my house with the 3Gs, but 4 has improved coverage, both for 3G and WiFi. I do see antenna attenuation when I touch the phone in all the wrong places, but reception and transfer speed is not affected. Based on my experience, reception and clarity of phone calls have been improved. On Jun 28, 2010, at 10:33 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Nobody, myself included, has denied the potential for signal degradation were a conductive material to alter the normal characteristics of a cell phone antenna. An antenna that is directly exposed to conductive material is more subject to such adversity as is an antenna of the same design that is shielded, to one degree or another, from such direct exposure. To wit, the simple application of a piece of tape, serving as insulation, over the portion of the iPhone that causes some signal degradation can fix the problem in many, perhaps most cases. To my way of thinking, this is something that Apple should have taken into consideration in a manner other than drooling over all the extra money they could make from those bumper accessories. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
[CGUYS] Just How Bad is Google's Mismanagement of the Android Market?
Google’s mismanagement of the Android Market http://nanocr.eu/2010/06/27/googles-mismanagement-of-the-android-market/ I am sure glad that the Apps Store does not look anything like this dystopian store that Android users are stuck with -- an anarchic place that only a Libertarian would love. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 1:09 AM, t.piwowar wrote: > You clearly did not read 2/3s of my last post. Here is another quote... I read it, the whole thing. I think that you understand the point about why it is best not to have an antenna of any sort or for any use coming into direct contact with conductive material of undetermined capacitive and/or conductive characteristics if it can be avoided. Even some of the very articles that you have referred to maintain that same thing. However, you simply refuse to say that Apple could have done better in this instance, thus I am left to puzzle over why you take such an intransigent position on something that is so obvious. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Because it doesn't matter in normal use. It appears that it may matter in some extreme cases. You are insisting that they must design their product for the extreme case and make the rest of us suffer the consequences. You have not explained why they must do such a silly thing. You just insist that they must. Sent from my iPad On Jun 29, 2010, at 1:41 AM, "phartz...@gmail.com" wrote: > However, you simply refuse to say that Apple could have > done better in this instance, thus I am left to puzzle over why you > take such an intransigent position on something that is so obvious. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
