[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

[JJ via Contra Callers]

Personally for me, the standard ballroom swing helps me to "flip the
switch" in the brain on which side of the swing I'm "supposed to" end on
(assuming we're not switching roles back and forth for fun lol). If my left
arm is the "pointy arm," I'm ending on the left; if my right arm is the
"pointy arm," I'm ending on the right. I don't have to consciously tell
myself "I'm the Lark" or "I'm the Robin," my muscle memory just takes over
and I just end on whichever side my arm position tells me to .

I enjoy neutral swings, but if we're not planning on switching roles
without warning through an individual dance, I tend to stick with the
traditional ballroom figure.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 22:33 Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> "At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role
> actually swung like a lady.  I'm not sure when that became the norm."
>
> When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing
> it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered.  I
> remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few
> guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom
> hold.  By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's
> role in the standard way?
>
> Jeff
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way
>> that indicated it was too intimate for them.  This is especially true if I
>> have to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs
>> (I'm pretty tall).  It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if
>> one or both partners is well on the heavy side.  But, all that aside, if
>> you and your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
>> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
>>
>> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role
>> (using the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment),
>> we'd almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is
>> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
>> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
>> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
>> each other's forearms between your bodies.  At the time, it almost never
>> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.  I'm
>> not sure when that became the norm.  I would occasionally do it with a
>> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with.  We practiced it first
>> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
>> neighbors.  We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
>> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
>> item.  Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
>> change...
>>
>> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when
>> they're happy to swing with me.  But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the
>> extreme to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and
>> looks of disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't
>> returned to the dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though
>> it was pretty great in other ways.
>>
>> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position
>> where the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same
>> place where the lark's hand is on theirs.  I know some people actually
>> teach it this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing.  It's terrible,
>> because their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same
>> space, which, well, physics.  If I'm the lark and their arm is outside
>> mine, when they try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow,
>> eliminating any chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain
>> before I can either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my
>> back, or pull my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the
>> traditional ballroom hold.  I hope we can convince everyone to stop
>> teaching this hold, as it usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt
>> the lark.
>>
>> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
>> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
>> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
>> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
>> provide some support on the shoulder blade.  In my case, at least, if they
>> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
>> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
>> connection.  It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
>> pull 

[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

[Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers]

"At the time, it almost never happened that the one in the lady's role
actually swung like a lady.  I'm not sure when that became the norm."

When I started dancing both roles, around 2005, I remember initially doing
it as you said, with gender-neutral swings with the gents I encountered.  I
remember being surprised sometime around 2006-2007 when I ran into a few
guys dancing switch who indicated they wanted to do the standard ballroom
hold.  By 2008-2009 I think my male friends and I were dancing the lady's
role in the standard way?

Jeff

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 10:16 PM Joe Harrington via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way that
> indicated it was too intimate for them.  This is especially true if I have
> to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm
> pretty tall).  It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or
> both partners is well on the heavy side.  But, all that aside, if you and
> your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
> ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.
>
> In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using
> the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd
> almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is
> symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
> the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
> bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
> each other's forearms between your bodies.  At the time, it almost never
> happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.  I'm
> not sure when that became the norm.  I would occasionally do it with a
> particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with.  We practiced it first
> and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
> neighbors.  We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
> swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
> item.  Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
> change...
>
> In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're
> happy to swing with me.  But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme
> to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of
> disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the
> dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty
> great in other ways.
>
> The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where
> the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place
> where the lark's hand is on theirs.  I know some people actually teach it
> this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing.  It's terrible, because
> their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which,
> well, physics.  If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they
> try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any
> chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can
> either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull
> my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom
> hold.  I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it
> usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark.
>
> One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
> communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
> lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
> length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
> provide some support on the shoulder blade.  In my case, at least, if they
> are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
> enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
> connection.  It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
> pull forward.
>
> --jh--
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this
>> email thread and observations.
>>
>> Short and simple:
>> A "barrel hold" swing:
>> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
>> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his
>> left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged
>> in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things
>> in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
>>
>> In dance,
>> -Julian Blechner
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I can’t answer whether 

[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

[Joe Harrington via Contra Callers]

I love the barrel hold, but some of my partners have reacted in a way that
indicated it was too intimate for them.  This is especially true if I have
to lean over to do it, as that puts my face pretty close to theirs (I'm
pretty tall).  It's also difficult to do without frontal contact if one or
both partners is well on the heavy side.  But, all that aside, if you and
your partner like fast swings, it's a great hold, more stable than
ballroom, with four arms providing support rather than one.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, when guys danced the lady's role (using
the terminology of the time for reasons you'll see in a moment), we'd
almost universally be offered the "gender-neutral swing", which is
symmetrical and very stable for fast swinging: both right arms are around
the other's back and both left arms go over/around the other's right arm,
bend 90 degrees at the elbow, pass between you, and clasp left hands around
each other's forearms between your bodies.  At the time, it almost never
happened that the one in the lady's role actually swung like a lady.  I'm
not sure when that became the norm.  I would occasionally do it with a
particular guy partner whom I liked to dance with.  We practiced it first
and then did it with each other, but we gender-neutral-swung our
neighbors.  We got some pretty surprised looks from our neighbors when we
swung each other. At least one guy asked me if that partner and I were an
item.  Times and role terms and what people read into dance behavior
change...

In general, I'm quite happy to swing with guys in either role when they're
happy to swing with me.  But, it's awkward and uncomfortable in the extreme
to be going up an entire line of consecutive frowns, growls, and looks of
disgust as a guy dancing the robbin...enough that I haven't returned to the
dance weekend where that happened in Fall 2022, even though it was pretty
great in other ways.

The one swing style I really dislike is a modified ballroom position where
the robbin tries to put their hand on the lark's back in the same place
where the lark's hand is on theirs.  I know some people actually teach it
this way, I guess as some kind of equality thing.  It's terrible, because
their elbow and the lark's elbow then have to occupy the same space, which,
well, physics.  If I'm the lark and their arm is outside mine, when they
try to provide support, it hyperextends my right elbow, eliminating any
chance I can provide support and sometimes inducing pain before I can
either force my elbow back out, displacing their hand from my back, or pull
my arm up to rest it on their arm in a mirror of the traditional ballroom
hold.  I hope we can convince everyone to stop teaching this hold, as it
usually doesn't work as intended and it can hurt the lark.

One assist that does work in ballroom position and requires no
communication is, if the robbin's arm is as long as or longer than the
lark's, they rest their left arm on the lark's right, extending the entire
length of the arm and then reaching around/over the lark's shoulder to
provide some support on the shoulder blade.  In my case, at least, if they
are short enough that they can't do this, then they're often also light
enough that additional support isn't critical, though it does make for more
connection.  It's important not to press down on the shoulder, though. Only
pull forward.

--jh--


On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 12:52 PM Julian Blechner via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this
> email thread and observations.
>
> Short and simple:
> A "barrel hold" swing:
> - Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
> - One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his
> left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged
> in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things
> in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.
>
> In dance,
> -Julian Blechner
>
> On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the
>> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
>> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
>> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
>> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
>> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
>> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
>> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
>> I were just learning this swing.
>> Becky
>>
>> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
>> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi John, thanks for all your 

[Callers] Re: Favorite Dances by or for David Kaynor?

[frannie via Contra Callers]

David K’s Reel by Bob Isaacs is a double progression dances that uses the
Mary K's signature move for both the Larks and Robins.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024, 1:54 PM Don Veino via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm calling a session at NEFFA next month where we're honoring David
> Kaynor's contribution in music and dance. The band has a relationship with
> David and will be playing his music.
>
> I've searched for David's dances and have several I've called before. What
> I'm seeking are recommendations for DK dances that are particular favorites
> of yours.
>
> Harder to search for are dances written to honor David. For instance,
> David's Guiding Star by Steve Zakon-Anderson - should you have any such
> favorites I'd be happy to hear of those too!
>
> Our slot is the penultimate contra session of the weekend, so solid
> sequences without significant complications will rule.
>
> Thanks!
> Don
>
> Among those classics and others I already have are: The Baby Rose, Young
> Adult Rose, Excretion Reel, Terror on Takeoff, Cherokee Shuffle, The Dog's
> Breakfast, Paul's Line, Hands of Brass, Mary Cay's Reel plus Steve Z-A's
> dance above and one I wrote for David too (Fiddler's Fling).
>
> ___
> Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
> To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net
>
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To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net

[Callers] Favorite Dances by or for David Kaynor?

[Don Veino via Contra Callers]

Hi,

I'm calling a session at NEFFA next month where we're honoring David
Kaynor's contribution in music and dance. The band has a relationship with
David and will be playing his music.

I've searched for David's dances and have several I've called before. What
I'm seeking are recommendations for DK dances that are particular favorites
of yours.

Harder to search for are dances written to honor David. For instance,
David's Guiding Star by Steve Zakon-Anderson - should you have any such
favorites I'd be happy to hear of those too!

Our slot is the penultimate contra session of the weekend, so solid
sequences without significant complications will rule.

Thanks!
Don

Among those classics and others I already have are: The Baby Rose, Young
Adult Rose, Excretion Reel, Terror on Takeoff, Cherokee Shuffle, The Dog's
Breakfast, Paul's Line, Hands of Brass, Mary Cay's Reel plus Steve Z-A's
dance above and one I wrote for David too (Fiddler's Fling).
___
Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net
To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net

[Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more conversation and info

[Julian Blechner via Contra Callers]

At the last couple of dances in the last few days, I thought about this
email thread and observations.

Short and simple:
A "barrel hold" swing:
- Seemed to provide a little bit more space than a ballroom hold
- One neighbor offered it (by chance) really clearly, as a lark, with his
left arm curved into a sort of "offer a hug" type position. As we engaged
in the swing hold, he placed his left arm in place, and it guided things
in. It worked pretty well for me, at least as an experienced dancer.

In dance,
-Julian Blechner

On Sat, Mar 16, 2024 at 4:18 PM becky.liddle--- via Contra Callers <
contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I can’t answer whether the robin's would always HAVE to go above the
> lark’s in the modified ballroom swing, but I would intuitively think that
> having that rule/understanding might make it easier for dancers to make the
> transition from ballroom to modified ballroom because the robin’s arm is
> always on top in standard ballroom swing. Also, the lark’s hand is
> typically cupped upwards with the robin’s hand above the lark’s in things
> like a balance or even a handhold in a circle move, so having the hand/arm
> orientations the same in the swing would also seem more intuitive to me if
> I were just learning this swing.
> Becky
>
> On Mar 16, 2024, at 12:25 PM, Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers <
> contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi John, thanks for all your comments. I like this swing at
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUiXStkCHGs from 0:05 to 0:15 - for
> spacing -- and I'm going to introduce it at our next dance!  Though what I
> think Becky found interesting about the variation we're working on is that
> it retains the "pointy hands", which can be useful.
>
> The one thing that I was confused about when I read your message:  you say
> when you tried the swing variation our group has been experimenting with
> (visual at 
> https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au=0
> )
> 
> -- you say that you found the grip insufficient, for the arms that are
> holding just above the elbow.
>
> But in my mind, this hold that me and my partner are doing with his left
> hand my right hand ,  is supposed to be the same as the hold you use in
> this video of yours - (but in your case, your left hand and her right hand.)
> Maybe I didn't execute it properly, but it is what I intended:
>
> https://youtu.be/yUbi1B2Edk0?si=HL-3jgI95LtGZBQ_=198
> Starts at 3:18.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Also, is anyone able to answer my question to Winston -
>
> Is it a given, due to something in the asymmetric nature of the hold, that
> in this video referenced by Allan -
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ0R5iHT-l8 
>    or in the photo I 
> shared above via Dropbox, that the Robin's arm will *always* go above the 
> Lark's arm?
>
> Or could the placement of the arms vary depending on the relative height of 
> the two dancing partners?
> (for example with a 6' tall Lark and a 5' tall Robin, would the Robin's arm 
> still be above the Lark's?
>
> Thanks all!
> Kat K in Halifax
>
> John Sweeney via Contra Callers 
> Thursday, March 14, 2024 7:23 AM
> Hi Kat,
> Yes, I thought you meant something like you show in your photo. When you
> mentioned Jeff's photo I did wonder, as it is what I call a Foreshortened
> Hold in my video and brings you closer together rather than further apart.
>
> I picked up the Foreshortened Hold from the cover of Zesty Contras and
> love it. I was surprised when I analysed the 600 dancers at a contra dance
> at The Flurry and realised that nobody else was using it!
>
> We tried your Modified Ballroom Hold Swing and didn't feel that it really
> worked. With my right arm underneath there didn't seem to be enough
> connection to have a really good swing unless Karen gripped my arm. I felt
> that my hand might slide down. With my right arm on top Karen felt that it
> was pulling on her shoulder even though I wasn't gripping - it was just
> awkward. So, sorry, but I won't be using that one.
>
> Re all the references to sore arms/hands/wrists/etc. The biggest problem
> is that people are told to "give weight". I don't want your weight! People
> misunderstand and lean back or sideways. If people control their own weight
> then all the connection has to do is counter centrifugal force and that it
> not a lot inless you spin really fast.
>
> I always start a Swing lesson by getting the dancers to Buzz on the spot
> BY THEMSELVES. Then when they connect they keep their own balance and
> weight.
>
> I have had major operations on both my shoulders (too much Repetitive
> Strain Injury from another style of dance that is taught badly, and then
> lots of Aerials: https://youtu.be/CJnL_Y63AnY?si=RqKHSw5MQmhiuIFT -