Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 andre wrote: On Monday 30 June 2003 19:16, Buchan Milne wrote: Like? make [clean]? rpm? amanda (amrestore or amrecover)? rsync? You could make a true mess (instantly fill a filesystem) of a system by implementing this at glibc level across the board ... Those programs are not that big of a deal. You only have to deal with changed files who have not set the dump attribute I think that is over-simplifying the issues. It should be done in the filesystem (if at all) but i wonder if any of the other *nix flavours have it and why not Isn't that where Veritas makes their money? Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/AUdGrJK6UGDSBKcRAkX1AJ0RYNBEAbikMQUiyY+2K5glavO9zgCcC9Y4 hUQ8XGyGRrKDuL7y84wEHGY= =9ndc -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. **
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Sat Jun 28 23:09 +0200, Pierre Jarillon wrote: This could be an issue. But I am not sure that a low level hack is the best solution. Sometimes people want really erase a file. The proper syscalls could be added to remove any chance of restoration. -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Take due notice and govern yourselves accordingly. Currently playing: Rush - Grace Under Pressure - The Body Electric Linux 2.4.21-0.15mdk 21:53:00 up 4 days, 7:11, 9 users, load average: 0.05, 0.03, 0.01
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Tuesday 01 July 2003 10:33, Buchan Milne wrote: Those programs are not that big of a deal. You only have to deal with changed files who have not set the dump attribute I think that is over-simplifying the issues. That is the main issue. If you have temp files that don't live by that rule than it is not my problem. But the fact that quite a lot of programs use is also a big problem. It should be done in the filesystem (if at all) but i wonder if any of the other *nix flavours have it and why not Isn't that where Veritas makes their money? Veritas seems to have snapshot but not versioning. And you seem to have to set some programs into backup mode which is not that nice of those programs. If only all computers had 2GB of mram than the solution would be trivial
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Saturday 28 June 2003 23:09, Pierre Jarillon wrote: Le Vendredi 27 Juin 2003 19:58, andre a écrit : This is not a gnome or kde issue. This should be done on a very low level so ALL programs will use the trash. This could be an issue. But I am not sure that a low level hack is the best solution. Sometimes people want really erase a file. Deleting a file can be also a wipe which means that the file must be absolutly impossible to restore. wipe : http://wipe.sourceforge.net/ does exist in Mandrake contribs. shred, which is in coreutils, should do the same but you can't be absolutely sure that a file can't be restored with any command. The change that you can restore a file however you shred it with an electron microscope isn't big but it is a possiblity So, when I use a low-level instruction, I am able to make the right choice. So you have to make a filesystem dependent shred. That is to be expected. I'm not even sure that XFS and ReiserFS will shred small files which have grown. With a medium level (bash) it is just necessary to create a rmc (remove clever) which is able to move files in the trash. This is easy to do. Then, it is possible to use: alias rmc='rm -a' I can't find rm -a in the man pages, what does it do. But that is not the big problem. Many programs (all not script?) don't look at the alias for their internal remove command so the avarage use would expect that a deleted file would go into trash but it isn't because they deleted it inside for example ee. With a high level, delete key (KDE ) move already the file in the trash. There is just a lack of maid or cleaning lady to empty it ! The trash directories should be defined in a config file or defined with an environment variable. Trash should be /trash with a ~/trash linked to /trash/home/ To avoid a daemon, it is possible to calculate the size of the trash after a move in the trash (rmc) It shouldn't be a daemon. It should be a filesystem attribute (wrong word use but can't think of the right word)
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
Le ven 27/06/2003 à 17:58, andre a écrit : On Friday 27 June 2003 15:04, Michael Scherer wrote: this is more a request for kde or gnome, you should file a bug report in their bugzilla, this sound like a good idea. This is not a gnome or kde issue. This should be done on a very low level so ALL programs will use the trash. Please don't put trash in low level. let low level be simple and you will have less security problems. Trash should be manage by the D.E ( Gnome, KDE, WM, ... ) and their should have a common trash for all theses D.E. it means that http://www.freedesktop.org/ should edicts a stanard for trash so that wherever D.E you are using you will have the same trash. Move file to trash on KDE, retore it on Gnome.
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Monday 30 June 2003 17:49, FACORAT Fabrice wrote: Please don't put trash in low level. let low level be simple and you will have less security problems. Trash should be manage by the D.E ( Gnome, KDE, WM, ... ) and their should have a common trash for all theses D.E. it means that http://www.freedesktop.org/ should edicts a stanard for trash so that wherever D.E you are using you will have the same trash. Move file to trash on KDE, retore it on Gnome. But it would be simple. If you let it handle by the D.E then the average use will expect it to work for all programs which is just not the case. It will work for konqueror, it may even work for emacs but it won't work for the 20 year old internal program
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 03:49:49PM +, FACORAT Fabrice wrote: Le ven 27/06/2003 à 17:58, andre a écrit : On Friday 27 June 2003 15:04, Michael Scherer wrote: this is more a request for kde or gnome, you should file a bug report in their bugzilla, this sound like a good idea. This is not a gnome or kde issue. This should be done on a very low level so ALL programs will use the trash. Please don't put trash in low level. let low level be simple and you will have less security problems. Trash should be manage by the D.E ( Gnome, KDE, WM, ... ) and their should have a common trash for all theses D.E. it means that http://www.freedesktop.org/ should edicts a stanard for trash so that wherever D.E you are using you will have the same trash. Move file to trash on KDE, retore it on Gnome. For what I was looking for: some poor man backup for the not so experienced users, it needs to be a general mechanism. To me it seems like an extended drakbackup, with backup tarbals as of today and backup filelists as of today, plus some minor script to browse the current living file hierachy, display the available versions for a filename, which was either selected by browsing, or entered manually, and then extract the solicited backup, would well satisfy my wishes. This would also be close to what Microsoft is offering. About the other mechanisms, these could be planned for by making eg the restore of a file be done by a well-defined API or utility, that could in the future be enhanced to cater for one or more of the other technologies, such as: 1. file system intrinsic versioning and restore, ala reiserfs 2. user library overwriting of system calls, such as libtrash 3. system trash handling of system calls, with trash files staying on the same filesystem, and garbage collection, as I proposed 4. GUI trash handling such as KDE, Gnome. To achive my goal of bringing backup to the masses, it would also be beneficial if the defaults for drakbackup be made more encompassing, such as defaulting to all data of the ordinary users, and probably also the system itself, (maybe only changed system files tho), and drakbackup having a more visible place in the install procedure. best regards Keld
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 andre wrote: But it would be simple. If you let it handle by the D.E then the average use will expect it to work for all programs which is just not the case. It will work for konqueror, it may even work for emacs but it won't work for the 20 year old internal program Like? make [clean]? rpm? amanda (amrestore or amrecover)? rsync? You could make a true mess (instantly fill a filesystem) of a system by implementing this at glibc level across the board ... Regards Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/AHBbrJK6UGDSBKcRAhTjAJ9haVr4B97f0K2W9D9t8wtNlDuSVgCeIZsD 60HuLQHSSrHQtRO+SoZIHT8= =306P -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. **
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Monday 30 June 2003 19:16, Buchan Milne wrote: Like? make [clean]? rpm? amanda (amrestore or amrecover)? rsync? You could make a true mess (instantly fill a filesystem) of a system by implementing this at glibc level across the board ... Those programs are not that big of a deal. You only have to deal with changed files who have not set the dump attribute It should be done in the filesystem (if at all) but i wonder if any of the other *nix flavours have it and why not
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
Le Vendredi 27 Juin 2003 19:58, andre a écrit : On Friday 27 June 2003 15:04, Michael Scherer wrote: I suggest another way : the clever trash ! (not yet patented ;-) The trash already does exist. My idea is to improve it. - Add a configuration file for the trash with : a max size select a strategy. - If the max size is exceeded, apply the strategy : change the icon : color, animated play a sound erase definitively a percentage (10% to 100%) of old/biggest files This is not too much difficult to do and, more important, it is easily understandable by everybody. For a newbie, this can be seen as a great improvement. this is more a request for kde or gnome, you should file a bug report in their bugzilla, this sound like a good idea. This is not a gnome or kde issue. This should be done on a very low level so ALL programs will use the trash. This could be an issue. But I am not sure that a low level hack is the best solution. Sometimes people want really erase a file. Deleting a file can be also a wipe which means that the file must be absolutly impossible to restore. wipe : http://wipe.sourceforge.net/ does exist in Mandrake contribs. So, when I use a low-level instruction, I am able to make the right choice. With a medium level (bash) it is just necessary to create a rmc (remove clever) which is able to move files in the trash. This is easy to do. Then, it is possible to use: alias rmc='rm -a' With a high level, delete key (KDE ) move already the file in the trash. There is just a lack of maid or cleaning lady to empty it ! The trash directories should be defined in a config file or defined with an environment variable. To avoid a daemon, it is possible to calculate the size of the trash after a move in the trash (rmc) -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Greg Meyer wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2003 02:42 pm, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Anyway I am not interesed in mimicking what MS does, but in something that is useful and convenient to the average MDK user. I personally don't find this useful. When I delete a file, I want it to be deleted. That, in combination with incremental rotating backups I do every four hours with rsync give good production and online availability of a file if deleted by accident. Anyway, one point here is that it is useless implementing something like this if there is not a really good consistent UI for it. One thing users hate about Windows is it hiding what it does, and at present we aren't any better. Maybe before adding new incomprehensible features (ie ones without a good UI), we should have UIs for the incomprehensible features we already have. ACL support in Konqueror/Nautilus would get my vote. When rollback is available in at least one filesystem (probably Reiser4 some time after kernel 2.6.1 is out) it may be worthwhile adding a UI for it. In the meantime, let's get ACL support back in ext2/3, and have a UI for it. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+/BafrJK6UGDSBKcRAk3NAJ4nt8IO/kI6HDZxHaR0yHGOPjC28ACcC469 hHDLGJLKneJqTwjabmljxUg= =LDeM -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. **
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 12:04:15PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Greg Meyer wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2003 02:42 pm, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Anyway I am not interesed in mimicking what MS does, but in something that is useful and convenient to the average MDK user. I personally don't find this useful. When I delete a file, I want it to be deleted. That, in combination with incremental rotating backups I do every four hours with rsync give good production and online availability of a file if deleted by accident. I think the function should be optional. If a user wants it it should be easy to aquire, and quite visible, as when you select the functionality for your machine under installation. For me the key is that it is easy to configure so that the chance that it will be used is good. To me it is a basic operating system functionality. Anyway, one point here is that it is useless implementing something like this if there is not a really good consistent UI for it. Hmm, maybe the user interface already in drakbackup to restore files is OK. At least it is a beginning. And there is a need to see how things would be functioning, and users' experience with the facilities. Key for me is also whether/how it would be integrated into the MDK system and installation procedure. This is of cause a MandakeSoft decision. It would thus be nice to hear what MandarakeSoft's thoughts are about such facilities. One thing users hate about Windows is it hiding what it does, and at present we aren't any better. I think what is in drakbackup is pretty obvious, and a kind of per-filesystem .trash directory with file node linking and garbage collection should also be pretty straightforward. Best regards Keld
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
Le Jeudi 26 Juin 2003 20:42, Keld Jørn Simonsen a écrit : If I had not thought to press them on their file shadowing, I might also have left the seminar thinking that this was tool worked at the file level.) Well, the MS people gave a live demonstration of the feature, which was done on a specific file, so maybe the backups are done as something like tarballs but they were able to pick out individual files. Anyway I am not interesed in mimicking what MS does, but in something that is useful and convenient to the average MDK user. I suggest another way : the clever trash ! (not yet patented ;-) The trash already does exist. My idea is to improve it. - Add a configuration file for the trash with : a max size select a strategy. - If the max size is exceeded, apply the strategy : change the icon : color, animated play a sound erase definitively a percentage (10% to 100%) of old/biggest files This is not too much difficult to do and, more important, it is easily understandable by everybody. For a newbie, this can be seen as a great improvement. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Rob Snow wrote: I believe this is currently available with LVM but I am unsure of it's status. LVM snapshots are intended to be temporary (AFAIK), such as doing a backup of a live db or similar while it is running. AFAIK, differences get kept in memory (possibly in another volume??). It is not (AFAIK) intended for long-term snapshots from where you would retreive files. But we haven't needed LVM snapshots yet, although we run LVM on all our critical servers. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+/HX5rJK6UGDSBKcRAiIJAKDIow63rZf+JPjYq65KDT/kUoVimACfddOL YWZk+BSCG/YKAraZ07VmDpY= =7CP1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. **
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
The half-assed way MS is doing it is a hack. What you probably really want is true snapshots which are done at the FS level. Check out NetApp for an example...snapshots are VERY handy and VERY fast way to save yourself from having to go to tape. (ie. 1sec to snapshot a 0.5TB filesystem) The snapshots also take no space to speak of (couple megs) until you have a delta from the snapshot filesystem contents and the current contents since they refer to the same files until it changes/moves/gets deleted/etc. Snapshots do not protect against device failures due to their nature, but they are great ways to do incremental backups in a very short amount of time. They also allow you to rollback to some previous state in about 1sec. To overly simplify it: they snap a picture of the filesystem layout at a given time and make it static. All changes after that to existing files go to a new place on the disk, leaving the old as it was until you free it. As far as a nice UI, I'd be 100% against that...someone can build one but I want file-system level availability: cd ~ ls your current files cd .snapshot-062503-1500 ls your files as they were on 6/25/03 @ 15:00 cp accidentlly deleted file ~ You just recovered your accidentially deleted file from a snapshot back to your home directory. It's not quite that simple as snapshots are done on the filesystem level and not (normally) on the directory level...you might have to cd /home/.snapshot-xyz/username, but it gets the point across. I believe this is currently available with LVM but I am unsure of it's status. Of course, another option is to use a versioned filesystem, but thats something else from snapshots entirely. -Rob On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 12:04:15 +0200, Buchan Milne wrote -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Greg Meyer wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2003 02:42 pm, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Anyway I am not interesed in mimicking what MS does, but in something that is useful and convenient to the average MDK user. I personally don't find this useful. When I delete a file, I want it to be deleted. That, in combination with incremental rotating backups I do every four hours with rsync give good production and online availability of a file if deleted by accident. Anyway, one point here is that it is useless implementing something like this if there is not a really good consistent UI for it. One thing users hate about Windows is it hiding what it does, and at present we aren't any better. Maybe before adding new incomprehensible features (ie ones without a good UI), we should have UIs for the incomprehensible features we already have. ACL support in Konqueror/Nautilus would get my vote. When rollback is available in at least one filesystem (probably Reiser4 some time after kernel 2.6.1 is out) it may be worthwhile adding a UI for it. In the meantime, let's get ACL support back in ext2/3, and have a UI for it. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+/BafrJK6UGDSBKcRAk3NAJ4nt8IO/kI6HDZxHaR0yHGOPjC28ACcC469 hHDLGJLKneJqTwjabmljxUg= =LDeM -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. **
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Friday 27 June 2003 15:04, Michael Scherer wrote: I suggest another way : the clever trash ! (not yet patented ;-) The trash already does exist. My idea is to improve it. - Add a configuration file for the trash with : a max size select a strategy. - If the max size is exceeded, apply the strategy : change the icon : color, animated play a sound erase definitively a percentage (10% to 100%) of old/biggest files This is not too much difficult to do and, more important, it is easily understandable by everybody. For a newbie, this can be seen as a great improvement. this is more a request for kde or gnome, you should file a bug report in their bugzilla, this sound like a good idea. This is not a gnome or kde issue. This should be done on a very low level so ALL programs will use the trash.
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
this is more a request for kde or gnome, you should file a bug report in their bugzilla, this sound like a good idea. This is not a gnome or kde issue. This should be done on a very low level so ALL programs will use the trash. mhh, as i stated before, there is libtrash. done at glibc level. please google to see what i mean :) i will post a spec tomorow if i finish it. -- Mickaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Friday 27 June 2003 01:45, Greg Meyer wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2003 02:42 pm, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Anyway I am not interesed in mimicking what MS does, but in something that is useful and convenient to the average MDK user. I personally don't find this useful. When I delete a file, I want it to be deleted. That, in combination with incremental rotating backups I do every four hours with rsync give good production and online availability of a file if deleted by accident. Your stating that it is completely useless but have implemented a hack which does exactly the same.
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 17:03, Alex Perry wrote: oops, I accidentally sent a blank message. anyway, I think the file shadow idea is a really good idea, It could be integrated into drakbackup,, and set to run automatically. - Alex Please ignore the MSN email address, i'm a Linux user, I swear -- i have to mount partitions, build kernels, and fight through version dependancies just like everyone else! :) Eh? We're Mandrake users. I don't have to do any of that. =) -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Friday 27 June 2003 21:04, Michael Scherer wrote: this is more a request for kde or gnome, you should file a bug report in their bugzilla, this sound like a good idea. This is not a gnome or kde issue. This should be done on a very low level so ALL programs will use the trash. mhh, as i stated before, there is libtrash. done at glibc level. please google to see what i mean :) i will post a spec tomorow if i finish it. But even glibc may not be low level enough and what does it do with files that are overwriten.
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Friday 27 June 2003 02:26 pm, andre wrote: On Friday 27 June 2003 01:45, Greg Meyer wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2003 02:42 pm, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Anyway I am not interesed in mimicking what MS does, but in something that is useful and convenient to the average MDK user. I personally don't find this useful. When I delete a file, I want it to be deleted. That, in combination with incremental rotating backups I do every four hours with rsync give good production and online availability of a file if deleted by accident. Your stating that it is completely useless but have implemented a hack which does exactly the same. No, I think the difference is that I completely control when something gets deleted for good, and within two days, if I don't need the deleted files because of a mistake, they are gone. The system I see you all raving about could potentially leave files that were intended to be deleted hanging around for a very long time without the user being aware of it. I really don't see the benefits. I haven't really seen any compelling arguments for this other than people saying they like the idea. Why? -- /g Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read -Groucho Marx
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
Greg Meyer wrote: On Friday 27 June 2003 02:26 pm, andre wrote: On Friday 27 June 2003 01:45, Greg Meyer wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2003 02:42 pm, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Anyway I am not interesed in mimicking what MS does, but in something that is useful and convenient to the average MDK user. I personally don't find this useful. When I delete a file, I want it to be deleted. That, in combination with incremental rotating backups I do every four hours with rsync give good production and online availability of a file if deleted by accident. Your stating that it is completely useless but have implemented a hack which does exactly the same. No, I think the difference is that I completely control when something gets deleted for good, and within two days, if I don't need the deleted files because of a mistake, they are gone. The system I see you all raving about could potentially leave files that were intended to be deleted hanging around for a very long time without the user being aware of it. That would all depend on the policy you define for it. As a matter of fact: why not use the disk close to 100% all the time? The usage by the operational system may be _much_ lower, but the spare space can still be used for snapshots, deleted files, etc. etc. You just need a smart filesystem to do it. I really don't see the benefits. I haven't really seen any compelling arguments for this other than people saying they like the idea. Why? Hmmm... IMHO: I really love the way Network Appliance has implemented their snapshot and data recovery features in their (filer) products. It's what makes them rock. Back in 1999 I managed storage for a 700 person company on a Sun E3000. At that time managing it was a total nightmare. Solaris didn't support group quota's (linux did at that time) and keeping projects (groups) from using too much space meant keeping them on a seperate partitions (or disks). With a fully loaded E3000, 3 storage arrays, some disks raided it still all added up to _many_ filesystems. Backups were a nightmare, and recovering files took a lot of time. Oh yeah, we were serving files out to the unix people with automounted NFS and to the windows people with SMB (Totalnet Advanced Server). I would have _loved_ to loose the E3K and use a netapp filer instead. The netapp WAFL filesystem rules. A few years later the company did retire the E3K and moved to a netapp filer. I must say, Microsoft is listening to their customers when it comes to this kind of functionality. I hope linux can provide the same kind of functionality one day, in the filesystem and without any sysadmin hacks... Perhaps with reiser v3,4,5 ? regards, Stefan smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Friday 27 June 2003 23:52, Greg Meyer wrote: No, I think the difference is that I completely control when something gets deleted for good, and within two days, if I don't need the deleted files because of a mistake, they are gone. The system I see you all raving about could potentially leave files that were intended to be deleted hanging around for a very long time without the user being aware of it. But you know they are not deleted. they are removed. The change that you can retrieve the file is 100%(expect in the case you need the file, than it is 0%). Why else does kde have a program to shred a file and is there a ext2 undelete. If you have versioning or snapshot the system is just more pleasant to work in and you still know what you deleted I really don't see the benefits. I haven't really seen any compelling arguments for this other than people saying they like the idea. Why? ps. read chapter 2 http://research.microsoft.com/~daniel/unix-haters.html
[Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
Hi! I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2. It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK? Best regards keld
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 09:15, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Hi! I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2. It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK? Best regards keld I don't know if there is a system like that for Linux, but it would be nice to see. -- Jason Komar [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lubetec
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
- Original Message - From: Keld Jørn Simonsen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 11:15 AM Subject: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality Hi!I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions offiles (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.)I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2.It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups.Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or everyhour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are notchanged. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted,but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should beavailable.There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restoreonly their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal filebrowsing gui, whatever that be.Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK?Best regardskeld
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On September 1993 plus 3585 days Jason Komar wrote: On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 09:15, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Hi! I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2. It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK? Best regards keld I don't know if there is a system like that for Linux, but it would be nice to see. ReiserFS is aiming for something like this, but more so (without the gui). I'm not sure how much of it is implemented in Reiser4 and how much is waiting for 5 and 6, but the whitepaper makes the stuff that Keld described seem like small potatoes...Hans wants version control in the filesystem, with database functionality (rollbacks and so on and so forth). Vox -- Think of the Linux community as a niche economy isolated by its beliefs. Kind of like the Amish, except that our religion requires us to use _higher_ technology than everyone else. -- Donald B. Marti Jr. pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
Le jeu 26/06/2003 à 15:15, Keld Jørn Simonsen a écrit : Hi! I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) It's different from backup and if it's in realtime it's very strong. Delete the file, oops, recover the file. But security risk also ( like old versions of documents in .doc ) What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. tar.gz and incremental backup When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. Have u ever use drakbackup or amanda, etc ... There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. ha, very interesting but not easy to do. Indeed you first need to decompress the backup, show files belonging only to the user, when the user for example click on the file in the file list, show the different version available, etc ... A better approach should to use something like hdlist which contain list of backed up files + attributes ( atime, backup timestamp, size ) for each user/owner. So this apps browse in this db, show the files belongings to the owner, etc ... It may be interesting and think as an extension for drakbackup but : 1°/ it's very complicated to implement 2°/ I don't think it will be seen in 9.2 3°/ amanda/Arkiea may be best suits for this -- FACORAT Fabrice [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fiventis
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
oops, I accidentally sent a blank message. anyway, I think the file shadow idea is a really good idea, It could be integrated into drakbackup,, and set to run automatically. - Alex Please ignore the MSN email address, i'm a Linux user, I swear -- i have to mount partitions, build kernels, and fight through version dependancies just like everyone else! :) - Original Message - From: Keld Jørn Simonsen To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 11:15 AM Subject: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality Hi!I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions offiles (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.)I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2.It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups.Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or everyhour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are notchanged. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted,but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should beavailable.There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restoreonly their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal filebrowsing gui, whatever that be.Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK?Best regardskeld
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 23:15, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2. It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. That's called rsync. (-: When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK? AFAICT, AtFS will do file versioning, which is what you seem to want. Alternately, one of the write on CD overlay filesystems might be tweakable for it. I don't think any of the fabulous GUI tools of which you speak exist, which of course implies something to keep yourself constructively busy with starting now. (-: Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jason Komar wrote: On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 09:15, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Hi! I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) Did they tell you how much it would cost for the storage to go with this? I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2. It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK? Best regards keld I don't know if there is a system like that for Linux, but it would be nice to see. This can be done with rsync in backup mode with hard links. I haven't tried it yet though. Remember, binary files (ie word docs) don't make nice diffs (usually bigger than the file itself). If you have something that makes nice diffs (OpenOffice.org xml), why have the filesystem do it when better tools are available (ie CVS). If you don't have something that makes nice diffs, you had better have lots of disk available. What's wrong with good old backups?? (amanda for instance). Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE++xe+rJK6UGDSBKcRAgvwAKCPRt0d61uYvJ6I4o8fNPkyUWxWnwCdHTQm ubNpfkW5iGEcyaxLB6+dZmg= =hzsB -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. **
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Thursday 26 June 2003 17:15, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Hi! I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2. It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK? There is libtrash, wich can be used to replace the unlink system calls with somthing like a mv. but, there is no gui or anything you need. there is no rpm for now, maybe tomorow if i can adapt the ones of pld. for older version of the contents, i don't know, except cvs and subversion :) -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 FACORAT Fabrice wrote: Le jeu 26/06/2003 à 15:15, Keld Jørn Simonsen a écrit : Hi! I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) It's different from backup and if it's in realtime it's very strong. Delete the file, oops, recover the file. To do it in realtime would need hooks from the filesystem, or direct support in the filesystem. However, without this kind of implementation, you could easily get 5 minute resolution (which is as good as the majority of needs would be). If done via samba, this could be triggered by a vfs module though, but it won't help for other access methods. But security risk also ( like old versions of documents in .doc ) Actually less, since you aren't likely to send of the snapshotted version of the document, as you do with .doc every time (unless you are very careful). What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. tar.gz and incremental backup Not convenient enough to access afterwards. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. Have u ever use drakbackup or amanda, etc ... There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. ha, very interesting but not easy to do. Indeed you first need to decompress the backup, show files belonging only to the user, when the user for example click on the file in the file list, show the different version available, etc ... A better approach should to use something like hdlist which contain list of backed up files + attributes ( atime, backup timestamp, size ) for each user/owner. So this apps browse in this db, show the files belongings to the owner, etc ... It may be interesting and think as an extension for drakbackup but : 1°/ it's very complicated to implement 2°/ I don't think it will be seen in 9.2 3°/ amanda/Arkiea may be best suits for this If you're willing to give up compression, you can have *everything* else, just not as integrated. http://www.mikerubel.org/computers/rsync_snapshots/ Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE++x9DrJK6UGDSBKcRAogWAJ928ltkBpB0v0wKVCgFY89V1nCNLgCfYKTf 3Ot2XOxaFoDFiQRG1cT+l3o= =sndr -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. **
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Thursday 26 June 2003 17:56, Buchan Milne wrote: This can be done with rsync in backup mode with hard links. I haven't tried it yet though. This should be done in the filesystem. A rm shouldn't remove the file but move it to the backup dir Remember, binary files (ie word docs) don't make nice diffs (usually bigger than the file itself). If you have something that makes nice diffs (OpenOffice.org xml), why have the filesystem do it when better tools are available (ie CVS). If you don't have something that makes nice diffs, you had better have lots of disk available. OO xml is zipped so i don't know if that still makes good diffs. And docs have the diff's internally IIRC What's wrong with good old backups?? (amanda for instance). It is not a backup problem
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
Well, I attended just such a MS session (ts2) recently. When pressed the answer was that you got all the files in any particular directory that was shadowed replaced. i.e. it was a directory shadow/replacement tool. It definitely was NOT a file by file replacement tool. I am sure they will correct this behavior, and may have already, but at the time (two months ago) this is the way this feature was reported to actually work. (Interestingly, I might also note that it would be nice if MS actually took the time to fix their interesting ways of puffing their products. If I had not thought to press them on their file shadowing, I might also have left the seminar thinking that this was tool worked at the file level.) Bob Finch On Thursday 26 June 2003 10:15 am, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Hi! I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2. It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK? Best regards keld
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 05:56:46PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jason Komar wrote: On Thu, 2003-06-26 at 09:15, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Hi! I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) Did they tell you how much it would cost for the storage to go with this? I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2. It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK? Best regards keld I don't know if there is a system like that for Linux, but it would be nice to see. This can be done with rsync in backup mode with hard links. I haven't tried it yet though. Yes, I am sure that a lot of bits and pieces already exist, but the big difference lies in packaging them all together and put it into the distribution so that it is a standard thing. Maybe drakbackup is the place to do it. Remember, binary files (ie word docs) don't make nice diffs (usually bigger than the file itself). If you have something that makes nice diffs (OpenOffice.org xml), why have the filesystem do it when better tools are available (ie CVS). If you don't have something that makes nice diffs, you had better have lots of disk available. yes, diffs may not be efficient in space, for file types like .doc .rpm and .iso. However compression may be very good on .doc and other file types like .txt and .html and even binary files. I don't think it should be done in the specific filesystem, I think it should be a general tool that would work for the whole system and with different file systems (ext3, reiserfs, what have you.). What's wrong with good old backups?? (amanda for instance). It is not so easy for a user to get access to the old files. Most times a user does not have access to system backups, and they do not set up backup themselves (they cry instead). I think a lot of users do not have backup set up. With the advent of big cheap disk like 80 GB being common nowadays, it costs something like 10 EUR to have a backup area of 5 GB. Having a standard option during installation of the MDK system to ensure backup could be a very good way to improve overall system roboustness. Maybe it could also be used to do a roll-back of the system to a specific state. Best regards keld
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 andre wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2003 17:56, Buchan Milne wrote: This can be done with rsync in backup mode with hard links. I haven't tried it yet though. This should be done in the filesystem. A rm shouldn't remove the file but move it to the backup dir So where is the patch adding this feature to all the filesystems supported? (if it is feasible to have this any time in the near future, it will be something like rsync). Remember, binary files (ie word docs) don't make nice diffs (usually bigger than the file itself). If you have something that makes nice diffs (OpenOffice.org xml), why have the filesystem do it when better tools are available (ie CVS). If you don't have something that makes nice diffs, you had better have lots of disk available. OO xml is zipped so i don't know if that still makes good diffs. You can get it to save unzipped (maybe only in OO.o1.1, or was it 1.0.2 with the mobile addon kit?). I have tested diffs done into CVS, and it does make good diffs. And docs have the diff's internally IIRC Exactly the problem, most people send off the version with all the previous revisions to others, who they didn't intend to see all revisions. What's wrong with good old backups?? (amanda for instance). It is not a backup problem Once a file is older than about 5 revisions, keeping it on fast-access media is a waste of money. rsync + amanda is what we use in production. 1 day interval for rysnc, if you want anything else, we'll pull it off tape. If users have a problem with that, they can write their copies to CD on our webCDwriter installation. I much prefer having users educated than to have to backup every single little change to a file. We have over 130GB of data at the moment, and it starts getting very expensive to start keeping 5-10 copies of that all compared to the 2 we have on disk (on-site and a rysnc'ed copy off-site) with daily differential amanda backups. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE++z8drJK6UGDSBKcRAiXjAJ4hzEJFNXIL5l0llosAwH79OGuD6gCfSp/S lJZ6i43Ca0SKbi6Wz4f+1Ao= =DUNA -END PGP SIGNATURE- ** Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. **
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Thu Jun 26 17:15 +0200, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: I have just been to a MS marketing seesion for their Windows Server 2003 and one of the few key selling points there is the volume shadowing feature. This is a way to find deleted files, or older versions of files (eg if you accidentially deleted some of the contents.) I would like to see that kind of functionality also in mdk 9.2. It seems nice to have. What I think one could do is to reserve some space for backups. Then one cron job could be run to make backups every day, or every hour or so. Backups should not be taken of system files that are not changed. Backups should be compressed and could be diffs. When space is being tight some older versions should be deleted, but maybe the original should be kept. Some excludsion list should be available. There should then be a utility and gui to find older versions of a file, given a specific file path. Users should be able to restore only their own files. That is, the gui should be the normal file browsing gui, whatever that be. Is there such a system for Linux and is it already in MDK? AFAIK, there is no such system, but I may this summer try to hack a similar functionality onto ext2/ext3, as described here: http://trikuare.cx/mt/archives/000164.php -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Currently playing: Rush - Power Windows - Marathon Linux 2.4.21-0.15mdk 16:35:00 up 2 days, 1:53, 8 users, load average: 0.00, 0.01, 0.04
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Thu, Jun 26, 2003 at 08:44:45PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 andre wrote: On Thursday 26 June 2003 17:56, Buchan Milne wrote: This can be done with rsync in backup mode with hard links. I haven't tried it yet though. This should be done in the filesystem. A rm shouldn't remove the file but move it to the backup dir So where is the patch adding this feature to all the filesystems supported? (if it is feasible to have this any time in the near future, it will be something like rsync). I think this can be done with a shared library, that instead of removing a file, moves the inode to a specific directory per file system, ala lost+found and renames it in some way so you have the data and time (a version stamp) and the owner rights etc available. This should not be file system specific code, but something that is available on all file systems with normal POSIX file system semantics. Libshred probably does it this way. And then some garbage collection, that can be run periodically or triggered by low availablilty of space. A lot like MS is doing it for their trash basket. And something that probably should be standard for MDK desktops, both KDE and Gnome have a trash basket. Once a file is older than about 5 revisions, keeping it on fast-access media is a waste of money. rsync + amanda is what we use in production. 1 day interval for rysnc, if you want anything else, we'll pull it off tape. If users have a problem with that, they can write their copies to CD on our webCDwriter installation. I am not really trying to target big organisations with well developed backup strategies. These people know what they are doing and would probably not be satisfied with a standard solution anyway. I am more thinking of small businesses, smaller web servers, home and hobby systems. The ones that forget to set up backup. I think there are many of these users around that are actual or potential MDK customers. I much prefer having users educated than to have to backup every single little change to a file. They don't do it. And if I have to bother every time I make a change, that would lower my productivity. And Murphys law says that I will forget to backup the very file that I really should not have deleted. We have over 130GB of data at the moment, and it starts getting very expensive to start keeping 5-10 copies of that all compared to the 2 we have on disk (on-site and a rysnc'ed copy off-site) with daily differential amanda backups. 130 GB of data is next to nothing these days, a standard 120 GB disk costs 80 EUR + tax nowadays. But of cause there should be some policy on when and how to do garbage collection. Best regards Keld
Re: [Cooker] wish for mdk 9.2: file shadow functionality
On Thursday 26 June 2003 02:42 pm, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: Anyway I am not interesed in mimicking what MS does, but in something that is useful and convenient to the average MDK user. I personally don't find this useful. When I delete a file, I want it to be deleted. That, in combination with incremental rotating backups I do every four hours with rsync give good production and online availability of a file if deleted by accident. I can understand why MS implemented it, to give companies and their attorneys another way to recontruct data that somebody attempted to destroye. -- /g Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read -Groucho Marx
