Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
Mike Calloway [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does this mean 8.2 Final will be in April 2002? April/May, yes. -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://www.frozen-bubble.org/
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
On Thursday 31 January 2002 09:23, Yura Gusev wrote: | On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, David BAUDENS wrote: |On Tuesday 29 January 2002 20:06, you wrote: | |Once again, KDE 3.0 will not be included in 8.2 if it is not ready. |'Ready' means that KDE 3.0 need to be in final release and that the |Mandrake's KDE Team + QA Team agree to release it. So, don't hope to |much to see it included in final contribs CDs (KDE 2.2.2 will be the |KDE avalaible in 8.2). | | I tryed KDE for few minutes, used it intensivly and it crashed sereval | times(mostly taskbar when i asked it to use pixmap as a background.) make sure that you have QT 2.3.1, not Qt 2.3.2 | So i'm thinking that maybe just maybe Mandrake will switch to some other | more stable WM, for example IceWM (+ DFM or Evolution for desktop icons). | Because this WM is much faster and stable. Do not mix KDE and KWin (KDE's Window Manager). KWin is pretty fast - it starts under 1 sec. To check it, from the command promt run: #X than: switch to terminal 1 ((Ctrl+Alt+F1) #aterm or xterm than: switch to terminal 7 ((Ctrl+Alt+F7) #kwin so now you will get kwin running, without KDE as I mentioned, KWin starts pretty fast here. | |KDE 3 installation will of course allow users to run KDE 2 or KDE 3. | |Beta versions of KDE 3 will be of course available in Cooker (but only |if when we will have time to do it, i.e. when there will be no know |bugs which need to be fixed in KDE 2). | | Yes, please test all apps. And make 8.2 stable even if you will | have to downgrade or use alpha software. Ask all your developers to | write down any bug or crash on paper, and then go through debug process. | Go and brainstorn every app you mandrake have build. | | For example you can add small hint bar for the MCC, something like | on.area(Configure Local and Network Printers). -- Vadim Plessky http://kde2.newmail.ru (English) 33 Window Decorations and 6 Widget Styles for KDE http://kde2.newmail.ru/kde_themes.html KDE mini-Themes http://kde2.newmail.ru/themes/
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
Does this mean 8.2 Final will be in April 2002? Unless what's generally perceived, we mostly never plan release date according to third party software release dates (the mostly is here because for 7.2 we could have kde-1.99 in), because doing a distro involves many things which are not widely known such as scheduled development cycle, bugfixing cycle, etc. All our releases are 6-month away from each other, with a maximum of 1-month delay according to various things including layout of bugfixing. -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/ _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
Vadim Plessky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... That's right. But, at the same time, many CSS, DOM and JavaScript fixes (KHTML, KJS) are not incorporated into KDE 2.2 branch - already for 2-3 months. So, frankly speaking, KDE2 branch was frozen around 3 months ago... By the time LM 8.2 hitted shelves (add 1-2 more months), KDE2 will be completely out of date. Yes, it's still good to have it as a backup solution. But KDE3 (latest beta/CVS) should be included into LM 8.2. That's my opinion :-) After the way people moaned and groaned about 8.1 having bugs? Nope - too many people expect the distro to be perfect - giving them something you KNOW isn't ready is just foolish. -- Murray J. Root [EMAIL PROTECTED] - email (404) 978-1262 x2646 - voicemail/fax __ FREE voicemail, email, and fax...all in one place. Sign Up Now! http://www.onebox.com
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
On Tuesday 29 January 2002 22:58, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: | Timothy R. Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | As of kde-3.0, I may be wrong but it seems that there is only | little to hope from the user side, between kde-2.2.2 and kde-3.0, | isn't it? | | From what I've seen of it, that would be correct UI-wise, but it is |binary incompatible with kde-2.x applications since it is based on QT3 |(so any KDE 2.x apps would have to be removed/upgraded at the time of |upgrading to KDE-3.0 unless it was some how installed without removing |KDE2/QT2). The main reason I bring this up, is that I know around KDE |2.0's release, a lot of people were rather frustrated that by the time |the latest release of SuSE started showing up in stores (7.0, |mid-September 2000), they had to download 50 megs of software, and many |of the applications included in the system ceased to function or had to |be removed because of dependancy problems. | | OTOH we'll be releasing with a very stable version of kde :-). | That's right. But, at the same time, many CSS, DOM and JavaScript fixes (KHTML, KJS) are not incorporated into KDE 2.2 branch - already for 2-3 months. So, frankly speaking, KDE2 branch was frozen around 3 months ago... By the time LM 8.2 hitted shelves (add 1-2 more months), KDE2 will be completely out of date. Yes, it's still good to have it as a backup solution. But KDE3 (latest beta/CVS) should be included into LM 8.2. That's my opinion :-) -- Vadim Plessky http://kde2.newmail.ru (English) 33 Window Decorations and 6 Widget Styles for KDE http://kde2.newmail.ru/kde_themes.html KDE mini-Themes http://kde2.newmail.ru/themes/
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, David BAUDENS wrote:
On Tuesday 29 January 2002 20:06, you wrote:
Once again, KDE 3.0 will not be included in 8.2 if it is not ready.
'Ready' means that KDE 3.0 need to be in final release and that the
Mandrake's KDE Team + QA Team agree to release it. So, don't hope to
much to see it included in final contribs CDs (KDE 2.2.2 will be the
KDE avalaible in 8.2).
I tryed KDE for few minutes, used it intensivly and it crashed sereval
times(mostly taskbar when i asked it to use pixmap as a background.)
So i'm thinking that maybe just maybe Mandrake will switch to some other
more stable WM, for example IceWM (+ DFM or Evolution for desktop icons).
Because this WM is much faster and stable.
KDE 3 installation will of course allow users to run KDE 2 or KDE 3.
Beta versions of KDE 3 will be of course available in Cooker (but only
if when we will have time to do it, i.e. when there will be no know
bugs which need to be fixed in KDE 2).
Yes, please test all apps. And make 8.2 stable even if you will
have to downgrade or use alpha software. Ask all your developers to
write down any bug or crash on paper, and then go through debug process.
Go and brainstorn every app you mandrake have build.
For example you can add small hint bar for the MCC, something like
on.area(Configure Local and Network Printers).
--
4:07am up 35 days, 15:17, 2 users, load average: 0.03, 0.17, 0.08
O//
==-} - .--._.-^-(.}
)'/{ ( \d
./\, ) -._.-
/ / `\/' GNU -=LFS*1482=-
I am not 31337. But I can use the Vi editor... ;-0
RE: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
I can also add that key KDE developers do no accept Bug Report against KDE 2.2 branch - as it's supposed to be closed. Key developers may do what they want. Distributions have there user base that they must maintain. I second back idea of installing KDE3 and KDE2 in parallel in upcoming LM 7.2 Even if KDE3 is not ready, you can install KDE3 Beta2 in parallel to KDE2 Stable, and allow users to test it and send bug reports to the KDE team. This needs cleanup of KDE3. Current hack of setting KDEHOME screws up KDE2 applications started out of KDE3. And menu methods for KDE3 are still using .kde/ and not .kde3/ as user prefix. KDE3 has to be recompiled with KDEHOME defaulting to ~/.kde3, menu methods fixed then you can really use them in parallel (and even run KDE2 apps out of KDE3 and vice versa). -andrej
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
On Tuesday 29 January 2002 20:26, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: | Timothy R. Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | | Now, a few opinions: | | 1.) I'm not sure if you are planning this or not, but have you |considered delaying the distro until the release of KDE 3.0? While you |might still want to keep KDE 2.2.2 the default desktop, you could |either have an option to install KDE 3.0 instead, or a way to install |them side-by-side (i.e. perhaps install KDE 3 to /opt/kde or vise |versa). SuSE did something like this in SuSE Linux 7.1. | | Unless what's generally perceived, we mostly never plan release | date according to third party software release dates (the mostly | is here because for 7.2 we could have kde-1.99 in), because doing | a distro involves many things which are not widely known such as | scheduled development cycle, bugfixing cycle, etc. All our | releases are 6-month away from each other, with a maximum of | 1-month delay according to various things including layout of | bugfixing. | | As of kde-3.0, I may be wrong but it seems that there is only | little to hope from the user side, between kde-2.2.2 and kde-3.0, | isn't it? There is a lot of improovement in KDE 3.0 comparing to KDE 2.2.2 Support for Asian languages is in particluar requires Qt 3.0 and KDE 3.0, which uses Qt3. I can also add that key KDE developers do no accept Bug Report against KDE 2.2 branch - as it's supposed to be closed. Other areas where KDE was significantly improoved: * Konqueror (and KHTML/LJS in particular) - JavaScript engine is re-written - CSS has a lot of improovements (better standards compliance) - DOM has a lot of improovements Besides, KDE3 (I hope) will have support for SVG (via KSVG module) and will even support SVG icons (neither MacOS X nor WinXP has support for SVG icons) SVG support is somewhat critical on a way to standards-compliant Web universe, so it makes sense to upgrade to KDE3 just because of improoved (added) SVG support. Some time ago I claimed that I will develop some SVG icons. Indeed, I did few of them - but I was sticked to KDE2 for some time and could not test them in KDE3. BTW: any chance to see Sodipodi (GNOME application) in upcoming LM 8.2? I used it for making SVG drawings, and despite some limitations program is great, IMHO. (http://sodipodi.sourceforge.net) I second back idea of installing KDE3 and KDE2 in parallel in upcoming LM 7.2 Even if KDE3 is not ready, you can install KDE3 Beta2 in parallel to KDE2 Stable, and allow users to test it and send bug reports to the KDE team. More reporting we get, higher chances that next release will be more bug-free. -- Vadim Plessky http://kde2.newmail.ru (English) 33 Window Decorations and 6 Widget Styles for KDE http://kde2.newmail.ru/kde_themes.html KDE mini-Themes http://kde2.newmail.ru/themes/
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
On Tuesday 29 January 2002 20:06, you wrote: /.../ 1.) I'm not sure if you are planning this or not, but have you considered delaying the distro until the release of KDE 3.0? While you might still want to keep KDE 2.2.2 the default desktop, you could either have an option to install KDE 3.0 instead, or a way to install them side-by-side (i.e. perhaps install KDE 3 to /opt/kde or vise versa). SuSE did something like this in SuSE Linux 7.1. /.../ Once again, KDE 3.0 will not be included in 8.2 if it is not ready. 'Ready' means that KDE 3.0 need to be in final release and that the Mandrake's KDE Team + QA Team agree to release it. So, don't hope to much to see it included in final contribs CDs (KDE 2.2.2 will be the KDE avalaible in 8.2). KDE 3 installation will of course allow users to run KDE 2 or KDE 3. Beta versions of KDE 3 will be of course available in Cooker (but only if when we will have time to do it, i.e. when there will be no know bugs which need to be fixed in KDE 2). -- David BAUDENS MandrakeSoft http://www.mandrakesoft.com
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
Timothy R. Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1.) There seems to be a problem in the way HardDrake configures SB Live! soundcards during installation. While the result works alright, because it uses OSS/Lite rather than ALSA it is not possible to use MIDI-Synth, AFAIK. By rerunning HardDrake through DrakeConf after installation, the SB Live! is setup with ALSA and all is well. This problem also occurs in Mandrake 8.1. Would it be possible to make the installation use ALSA to begin with? Since we're in the process to substitute harddrake by the so-called harddrake2, and that original author of harddrake doesn't work for us anymore, I don't know if this would be done for the final... Thierry, WDYT ? 4.) I'm not sure if this was just because there weren't any security updates or not, but I did not receive a prompt to check for upgrades during the install process. Strange, in every install I've done so far, it asked for it. Can you send the file /root/report.bug ? Now, a few opinions: 1.) I'm not sure if you are planning this or not, but have you considered delaying the distro until the release of KDE 3.0? While you might still want to keep KDE 2.2.2 the default desktop, you could either have an option to install KDE 3.0 instead, or a way to install them side-by-side (i.e. perhaps install KDE 3 to /opt/kde or vise versa). SuSE did something like this in SuSE Linux 7.1. Unless what's generally perceived, we mostly never plan release date according to third party software release dates (the mostly is here because for 7.2 we could have kde-1.99 in), because doing a distro involves many things which are not widely known such as scheduled development cycle, bugfixing cycle, etc. All our releases are 6-month away from each other, with a maximum of 1-month delay according to various things including layout of bugfixing. As of kde-3.0, I may be wrong but it seems that there is only little to hope from the user side, between kde-2.2.2 and kde-3.0, isn't it? 2.) May I suggest that the LILO boot screen design be moved back to the 8.1-style? It match Aurora's style very nicely, and looked a little more modern, IMO. Actually we're trying hard to look more professional and the design team decided that this more traditional and less eye-candy design looks more professional. Oh, and on a different topic, I was wondering if it is too late to suggest an RPM for inclusion for Mandrake 8.2? We at the Bochs Project are highly interested in getting Bochs included in Mandrake (particularly since Mandrake was the company that made it open source and owns the copyright). We have a non-distro specific RPM for Bochs 1.3, including man pages and a DLX-Linux image available at http://bochs.sf.net. I would be happy to make this RPM MDK specific if you are interested. Is it functional? Last time (that was rather long ago) I talked with Kevin P. Lawton, he said that the design of Bochs made it practically unusable for real-life emulation since it doesn't execute native code, and that was why he worked on the plex project afterwards. -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
Hi Guillaume, 4.) I'm not sure if this was just because there weren't any security updates or not, but I did not receive a prompt to check for upgrades during the install process. Strange, in every install I've done so far, it asked for it. Can you send the file /root/report.bug ? Sure, I will send it privately though since it's just under 300 kb. As of kde-3.0, I may be wrong but it seems that there is only little to hope from the user side, between kde-2.2.2 and kde-3.0, isn't it? From what I've seen of it, that would be correct UI-wise, but it is binary incompatible with kde-2.x applications since it is based on QT3 (so any KDE 2.x apps would have to be removed/upgraded at the time of upgrading to KDE-3.0 unless it was some how installed without removing KDE2/QT2). The main reason I bring this up, is that I know around KDE 2.0's release, a lot of people were rather frustrated that by the time the latest release of SuSE started showing up in stores (7.0, mid-September 2000), they had to download 50 megs of software, and many of the applications included in the system ceased to function or had to be removed because of dependancy problems. Actually we're trying hard to look more professional and the design team decided that this more traditional and less eye-candy design looks more professional. I can see where you are coming from. Is that why the console login screens with the ASCII-art version of Tux have been removed, btw? I guess we can't have any fun anymore, huh? ;-) Seriously, I'm very impressed with Mandrake's overall professional feel. That's part of what won me over from SuSE, along with your great utilities such as urpmi. Is it functional? Last time (that was rather long ago) I talked with Kevin P. Lawton, he said that the design of Bochs made it practically unusable for real-life emulation since it doesn't execute native code, and that was why he worked on the plex project afterwards. Well, it's slow, but it may be useful for some real life emulation now adays. I've been on the project as the PR guy since last May, and Bochs has sped up, gained a CLI-based config tool, and networking support; among other things. Right out of the box (pun not intended), you can run the demonstration DLX-Linux, and it only takes a few minutes to get MS-DOS or the QNX demo disk to run. I haven't attempted it, but Bochs has also been known to run Windows 95 and NT 4. Practically speaking, probably it's strongest use is as a way to run legacy DOS apps (including ones requiring networking support). I should also mention in my personal experience it ran Windows 3.1 at a fairly decent speed (on my 450 MHz machine, without slowing down the system). -Tim -- Timothy R. Butler | Universal Networks | http://www.uninet.info [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: 12495932 AIM: Uninettm Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Open Source Migration Guide: http://www.ofb.biz = Christian Web Services Since 1996 ==
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
Timothy R. Butler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As of kde-3.0, I may be wrong but it seems that there is only little to hope from the user side, between kde-2.2.2 and kde-3.0, isn't it? From what I've seen of it, that would be correct UI-wise, but it is binary incompatible with kde-2.x applications since it is based on QT3 (so any KDE 2.x apps would have to be removed/upgraded at the time of upgrading to KDE-3.0 unless it was some how installed without removing KDE2/QT2). The main reason I bring this up, is that I know around KDE 2.0's release, a lot of people were rather frustrated that by the time the latest release of SuSE started showing up in stores (7.0, mid-September 2000), they had to download 50 megs of software, and many of the applications included in the system ceased to function or had to be removed because of dependancy problems. OTOH we'll be releasing with a very stable version of kde :-). Actually we're trying hard to look more professional and the design team decided that this more traditional and less eye-candy design looks more professional. I can see where you are coming from. Is that why the console login screens with the ASCII-art version of Tux have been removed, btw? I guess we can't Yes. have any fun anymore, huh? ;-) Sort of. Times are rather worse than before and we need to attract more business to use mandrake. Seriously, I'm very impressed with Mandrake's overall professional feel. That's part of what won me over from SuSE, along with your great utilities such as urpmi. Thanks. Well, it's slow, but it may be useful for some real life emulation now adays. I've been on the project as the PR guy since last May, and Bochs has sped up, gained a CLI-based config tool, and networking support; among other things. Right out of the box (pun not intended), you can run the demonstration DLX-Linux, and it only takes a few minutes to get MS-DOS or the QNX demo disk to run. I haven't attempted it, but Bochs has also been known to run Windows 95 and NT 4. Practically speaking, probably it's strongest use is as a way to run legacy DOS apps (including ones requiring networking support). I should also mention in my personal experience it ran Windows 3.1 at a fairly decent speed (on my 450 MHz machine, without slowing down the system). I see, though I'm not sure this particular package would be the ideal candidate to be in the distro. Basic questions are the size and potential usage from people, and we are now much more strict to accept new packages. -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
Neuromancer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I have it installed here. Works great. I had to alter it slightly, but it works. I use it to emulate DOS so I can play that old Second Reality demo by Does the sound work ?? Since I've got a GUS I keep a dos floppy to run the demos :-). Future Crew. Remember that? Of course, I'm a demo addict[1], even if currently I would name 303 by Statix/Vic as my favourite demo. Ref: [1] http://guillaume.cottenceau.free.fr/html/demos.html -- Guillaume Cottenceau - http://people.mandrakesoft.com/~gc/
Re: [Cooker] Early Comments on MDK 8.2 Beta
On 29 Jan 2002, Guillaume Cottenceau wrote: Actually we're trying hard to look more professional and the design team decided that this more traditional and less eye-candy design looks more professional. I don't think that there's anything wrong with the new look, it's just that the text is hard to read, because it's double. I'm referring to the shadow effect, which not only makes the text unclear, but also takes away a lot of the professional feeling. But the picture is totally OK, methinks. Regards, Mattias
