Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
»Keld Jørn Simonsen« sagte am 2002-02-27 um 19:44:10 +0100 : problems with java, I understand. Something about new MS software not running real Sun java but something else, or linux not running java And *that's* what I don't understand. Why do the hassle to write a highly complicated Web application (like banking surely is) if it is supposed to only run on one platform? Why not write a real client/server application? Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.iso-top.de | Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] iso-top.de - Die günstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 1 day 13 hours 27 minutes
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 08:37:01PM -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote: All those in favour? Aye There is also a problem with net banking where all the newer browsers run some other kind of java that Danish banks do not support, so the only linux browser which can do netbakning in Denmark is NS4. keld
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Wednesday 27 February 2002 11:15, David Walser wrote: --- Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All those in favour? s/favour/favor/ ``You f###ing Americans are all the f###ing same! It's listen-to-me-this or let-me-tell-you-that. Well, you're dead now!'' -- Death, in Monty Python's /The Meaning Of Life/. The spelling ``favour'' wins over ``favor'' for historical reasons. Especially on a French-flavoured list! (-: Cheers; Leon Perth, Western Australia
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Wednesday 27 February 2002 11:24, Vincent Meyer, MD wrote: There are many posts like this. I think the summary is: NS4 belongs in the distro, but on the last (nonfree) download CD. People new to Mandrake and Linux should be able to get the most stable browser that works with the most sites, and does not have brain damage on Java code WITHOUT having to pay extra for it. Perhaps I should have written it like this: ``(nonFree)''. The last CD of the download edition is just as free-beer as the rest, but it's not entirely free-speech. I was proposing putting on that one, not on a pay-for-only one. Yes, there are still sites which will *only* work with NS4 or IE5 (WA gummint's so-called portable site at http://mywebct.westone.wa.gov.au/ being a classic example) but they are very much in the minority. Mozilla/NS6 is getting better by leaps and bounds, NS4 is in maintenance mode. There are many good reasons for dropping NS4 to make room for other stuff, but the time has not quite come. PS, if you run across an NS-only or IE-only site, take the time to complain to the webmaster, and point them at http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/, even if they've heard it all before. The squeaky wheel gets the grease, so squeak up! Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Wed Feb 27 11:25 +0100, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 08:37:01PM -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote: All those in favour? Aye There is also a problem with net banking where all the newer browsers run some other kind of java that Danish banks do not support, so the only linux browser which can do netbakning in Denmark is NS4. Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? From what I've seen on the opera.linux ng, most banks seem to just use simple JavaScript browser detection (navigator.appName or similar and grepping the results for Netscape or Internet Explorer). I believe Mozilla can be made to spoof, but it's not as easy to change it as it is in Opera (iow, I haven't found the option in 0.9.8). -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] When it comes down to desperation, You make the best of your situation. Linux 2.4.17-20mdk 10:33am up 1 day, 20:16, 16 users, load average: 0.05, 0.16, 0.11 msg57254/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Wednesday 27 February 2002 23:54, Levi Ramsey wrote: Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? Konqueror features per-site identity spoofing as well as per-site cookies (bin, take, ask). In the menu: Settings, Configure, User-Agent. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
Le Mercredi 27 Février 2002 16:50, Leon Brooks a écrit : On Wednesday 27 February 2002 23:54, Levi Ramsey wrote: Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? Konqueror features per-site identity spoofing as well as per-site cookies (bin, take, ask). In the menu: Settings, Configure, User-Agent. Cheers; Leon I'm using galeon for banking management, and i have no trouble, it is may be bank-related ? Stef
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
Leon Brooks wrote: On Wednesday 27 February 2002 23:54, Levi Ramsey wrote: Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? Konqueror features per-site identity spoofing as well as per-site cookies (bin, take, ask). In the menu: Settings, Configure, User-Agent. Cheers; Leon Yay, thus icreasing the browsing stats for IE, and providing no motivation for sites to support standards: Everyone accessing this site uses IE, even the users who were using wierd browsers under linux last month, and allowing people to say linux isn't used on the desktop, based on browser stats. Buchan -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/gpg.key
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? From what I've seen on the opera.linux ng, most banks seem to just use simple JavaScript browser detection (navigator.appName or similar and grepping the results for Netscape or Internet Explorer). I believe Mozilla can be made to spoof, but it's not as easy to change it as it is in Opera (iow, I haven't found the option in 0.9.8). I believe it's a hack in preferences.js (no ui yet), you might find it listed in one of the changelogs on mozilla.org -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/gpg.key
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Wednesday 27 February 2002 16:58, Stéphane Teletchéa wrote: I'm using galeon for banking management, and i have no trouble, it is may be bank-related ? These are bank related. I am using three banks, one of them has always worked with any reasonable browser, one works somehow with all browsers, and one used to start working nicely with KDE 2.2.x konqueror, but then the bastards changed the site to use fancy javascipt, and now it works only with NS4. Before that, I thought I could actually remove NS4... Teemu
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
Le Mercredi 27 Février 2002 17:18, Teemu Torma a écrit : On Wednesday 27 February 2002 16:58, Stéphane Teletchéa wrote: I'm using galeon for banking management, and i have no trouble, it is may be bank-related ? These are bank related. I am using three banks, one of them has always worked with any reasonable browser, one works somehow with all browsers, and one used to start working nicely with KDE 2.2.x konqueror, but then the bastards changed the site to use fancy javascipt, and now it works only with NS4. Before that, I thought I could actually remove NS4... Teemu And what about javascripts ? You can use them in galeon / konqueror or what you want, where is your point ? Stef
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Wednesday 27 February 2002 12:25, you wrote: On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 08:37:01PM -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote: All those in favour? Aye There is also a problem with net banking where all the newer browsers run some other kind of java that Danish banks do not support, so the only linux browser which can do netbakning in Denmark is NS4. Same in South Africa. Mozilla does my banking to a certain point then it craps out. NS4 looks ugly, but it keeps the banking site up -- Michel Clasquin, D Litt et Phil (Unisa) [EMAIL PROTECTED]/unisa.ac.za http://www.geocities.com/clasqm This message was posted from a Microsoft-free PC ... Linux users and the women who chase them - next Oprah!
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Wed, 27 Feb 2002, Buchan Milne wrote: Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? From what I've seen on the opera.linux ng, most banks seem to just use simple JavaScript browser detection (navigator.appName or similar and grepping the results for Netscape or Internet Explorer). I believe Mozilla can be made to spoof, but it's not as easy to change it as it is in Opera (iow, I haven't found the option in 0.9.8). I believe it's a hack in preferences.js (no ui yet), you might find it listed in one of the changelogs on mozilla.org You can use this xpi, it adds a nice useragent sidebar: http://mozilla-evangelism.bclary.com/sidebars/# Danny
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Wed Feb 27 18:03 +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: Leon Brooks wrote: On Wednesday 27 February 2002 23:54, Levi Ramsey wrote: Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? Konqueror features per-site identity spoofing as well as per-site cookies (bin, take, ask). In the menu: Settings, Configure, User-Agent. Cheers; Leon Yay, thus icreasing the browsing stats for IE, and providing no motivation for sites to support standards: Everyone accessing this site uses IE, even the users who were using wierd browsers under linux last month, and allowing people to say linux isn't used on the desktop, based on browser stats. That's the very reason that I do not as a matter of course use such spoofing. But there are cases where it's needed. I generally try to email the admin of the site to inform him of the error of his ways... -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] When it comes down to desperation, You make the best of your situation. Linux 2.4.17-20mdk 12:01pm up 1 day, 21:43, 16 users, load average: 0.09, 0.05, 0.01 msg57289/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Thu, 2002-02-28 at 02:33, Buchan Milne wrote: Leon Brooks wrote: On Wednesday 27 February 2002 23:54, Levi Ramsey wrote: Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? Yay, thus icreasing the browsing stats for IE, and providing no motivation for sites to support standards: Everyone accessing this site uses IE, even the users who were using wierd browsers under linux last month, and allowing people to say linux isn't used on the desktop, based on browser stats. Yes, this is bad. Opera's default is to identify as MSIE, but it's under quick preferences to change it (F12). I run as opera 'till I need to fake MSIE. But, your system still shows as linux, kinda. User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Linux 2.4.17 i686) Opera 6.0 [en] Thats funny now I look at it. Mosilla, MSIE, opera and linux mentioned :) But back to the point. I think it would be fair to say that most people dont like/dont use NS4, but a lot of people do use it for specific applications when web servers suck, and thus there will be a lot of non-technical mandrake users who get stuck when they upgrade to 8.2 if it is missing. On this basis I think it would be a good idea to leave NS4 on the main distro. A lot of people dont download the last cd. Incidentally, www.harveynorman.com.au used to bitch about opera, and only give me debug info when I faked MSIE, and the debug info said there was no problems! I complained (several times) and today just noticed that they have changed their site and now it works when I fake netscape and/or IE, and if I pick opera it tells me I may need netscape or IE, gives me some links to them, and then provides a link to try anyway which lets me in! Good to see some people out there are listening! (I thought they'd never change!) As for coming to AU, why not linux conf 2003? http://www.linux.org.au/conf/ Ant -- Systems Administrator Pracom Ltd. +61 8 82029074 -=- +61 402 100 671 [EMAIL PROTECTED] PRIVILEGED - PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL This electronic mail is solely for the use of the addressee and may contain information which is confidential or privileged. If you receive this electronic mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify the sender by electronic mail or using any of the above contact details.
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Thu Feb 28 11:13 +1030, Anthony Symons wrote: On Thu, 2002-02-28 at 02:33, Buchan Milne wrote: Leon Brooks wrote: On Wednesday 27 February 2002 23:54, Levi Ramsey wrote: Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? Yay, thus icreasing the browsing stats for IE, and providing no motivation for sites to support standards: Everyone accessing this site uses IE, even the users who were using wierd browsers under linux last month, and allowing people to say linux isn't used on the desktop, based on browser stats. Yes, this is bad. Opera's default is to identify as MSIE, but it's under quick preferences to change it (F12). I run as opera 'till I need to fake MSIE. But, your system still shows as linux, kinda. User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Linux 2.4.17 i686) Opera 6.0 [en] Well, IE on any platform identifies as Mozilla/4.0. It's a vestige of when IE was the minority browser (back around 2.0/3.0). But IE on Linux is kinda weird... -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] When it comes down to desperation, You make the best of your situation. Linux 2.4.17-20mdk 8:01pm up 2 days, 5:43, 13 users, load average: 0.60, 0.52, 0.38 msg57406/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Wed, Feb 27, 2002 at 10:54:08AM -0500, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Wed Feb 27 11:25 +0100, Keld Jørn Simonsen wrote: On Tue, Feb 26, 2002 at 08:37:01PM -0600, Timothy R. Butler wrote: All those in favour? Aye There is also a problem with net banking where all the newer browsers run some other kind of java that Danish banks do not support, so the only linux browser which can do netbakning in Denmark is NS4. Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? From what I've seen on the opera.linux ng, most banks seem to just use simple JavaScript browser detection (navigator.appName or similar and grepping the results for Netscape or Internet Explorer). I believe Mozilla can be made to spoof, but it's not as easy to change it as it is in Opera (iow, I haven't found the option in 0.9.8). It is not about spoofing. They really cannot do it, because of some problems with java, I understand. Something about new MS software not running real Sun java but something else, or linux not running java from sun. Last time I checked I actually had a problem with NS4 and one of my banks, under mdk 82b3 . Will test again and see if it is still a problem. Still much to test for 82b3... Keld
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
Op do 28-02-2002, om 02:55 schreef Levi Ramsey: On Thu Feb 28 11:13 +1030, Anthony Symons wrote: On Thu, 2002-02-28 at 02:33, Buchan Milne wrote: Leon Brooks wrote: On Wednesday 27 February 2002 23:54, Levi Ramsey wrote: Have you tried Opera's browser spoofing (it can masquerade as IE 5 for Windows)? Yay, thus icreasing the browsing stats for IE, and providing no motivation for sites to support standards: Everyone accessing this site uses IE, even the users who were using wierd browsers under linux last month, and allowing people to say linux isn't used on the desktop, based on browser stats. Yes, this is bad. Opera's default is to identify as MSIE, but it's under quick preferences to change it (F12). I run as opera 'till I need to fake MSIE. But, your system still shows as linux, kinda. User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Linux 2.4.17 i686) Opera 6.0 [en] Well, IE on any platform identifies as Mozilla/4.0. It's a vestige of when IE was the minority browser (back around 2.0/3.0). But IE on Linux is kinda weird... IE5 did run (somewhat) in wine, and there was/is a version for solaris and hpux IIRC
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Thursday 28 February 2002 09:55, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Thu Feb 28 11:13 +1030, Anthony Symons wrote: Yes, this is bad. Opera's default is to identify as MSIE, but it's under quick preferences to change it (F12). I run as opera 'till I need to fake MSIE. But, your system still shows as linux, kinda. User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; Linux 2.4.17 i686) Opera 6.0 [en] Well, IE on any platform identifies as Mozilla/4.0. It's a vestige of when IE was the minority browser (back around 2.0/3.0). But IE on Linux is kinda weird... User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; PlayStation 2) KonqEmbed [en] (-: Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; PlayStation 2) KonqEmbed [en] Now that is WEIRD looking ! :-) Are you just having fun over there, or do you have a PS2 Linux Kit? -Tim -- Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Open Source Migration Guide: http://www.ofb.biz = Christian Web Services Since 1996 ==
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
On Thursday 28 February 2002 11:05, Timothy R. Butler wrote: User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.0; PlayStation 2) KonqEmbed [en] Now that is WEIRD looking ! :-) Are you just having fun over there, or do you have a PS2 Linux Kit? Just having fun. I often set my SMTP banner to say you're connecting to a Commodore 64 SMTP server with an anti-spam cartridge, or a Nintendo. (-: Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
Just having fun. I often set my SMTP banner to say you're connecting to a Commodore 64 SMTP server with an anti-spam cartridge, or a Nintendo. (-: Hehehe... Super Spamario Brothers 3: Attack of the MLM eh? -Tim -- Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Open Source Migration Guide: http://www.ofb.biz = Christian Web Services Since 1996 ==
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
Hey, wanna hear a REAL HOOT I use a web-enabled medical records system. They recently changed their code so that the ONLY browser that will work with their site is IE5.. because. wait for it. they say it's MORE SECURE!!! (rotflmao) Pointed out to them that IE5 works best.. for running things like VBS script viruses. (Tonight's comedy relief courtesy of Medicalogic.. now a division of GE medical)
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
All those in favour? Aye. -Tim -- Timothy R. Butler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Universal Networks http://www.uninet.info Christian Portal and Search Tool: http://www.faithtree.com Open Source Migration Guide: http://www.ofb.biz = Christian Web Services Since 1996 ==
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
--- Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All those in favour? s/favour/favor/ Count me in. I think it's a good idea. If Mandrake really doesn't want to do it I have another idea. I dunno how you have your packages made now, but you could have one package with just the integration stuff (menu file, icons, wrapper for launching) in like a netscape-common RPM on the Mandrake download CDs, and have the actual Netscape binaries and stuff in packages on the commercial CDs. Then you could have the netscape-common configured generic enough that people could either install Mandrake's commercial packages, or the tarball from Netscape, and still have it work. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO People new to Mandrake and Linux should be able to get the most stable browser that works with the most sites, and does not have brain damage on Java code WITHOUT having to pay extra for it. The Linux newbee who loads the basic install, and can't browse the web is NOT going to take the time to search newsgroups, or whatever, to find out that some other browser will work real soon now or that Netscape isn't Open Source / GPL Politically Correct so it's been religated to the extras disk. They'll just see that they can't go where they want to with Linux, and go back to windows. Along the way they'll tell 10 of their friends that Linux is junk, because they couldn't go to www.toomucheyecandy.com or whatever. Flame me if you must, and if this brands me an open source heritic, so be it - but if Netscape can be distributed for free, AS IN COST, not as in beer, and if it's the only thing we have that's stable, then I think we'd be foolish NOT to include it in the distro. Sorry if I'm grouchy tonight.. Vinny On Tuesday 26 February 2002 08:17 pm, you wrote: On Wednesday 27 February 2002 09:20, Anthony Symons wrote: I primarily use opera, but from time to time there is some page or some javascript that opera wont handle that netscape will. I agree it does crash a lot, but the most recent 4.x isnt too bad and I often use it as a backup browser when nothing else will cope. Various sites with dynamic content come in to this category, as well as some video streams. There are many posts like this. I think the summary is: NS4 belongs in the distro, but on the last (nonfree) download CD. All those in favour? Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
Um...his suggestion was to put it on the last download CD, which you don't have to pay for, by non-free he was using the FSF definition. --- Vincent Meyer, MD [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO People new to Mandrake and Linux should be able to get the most stable browser that works with the most sites, and does not have brain damage on Java code WITHOUT having to pay extra for it. The Linux newbee who loads the basic install, and can't browse the web is NOT going to take the time to search newsgroups, or whatever, to find out that some other browser will work real soon now or that Netscape isn't Open Source / GPL Politically Correct so it's been religated to the extras disk. They'll just see that they can't go where they want to with Linux, and go back to windows. Along the way they'll tell 10 of their friends that Linux is junk, because they couldn't go to www.toomucheyecandy.com or whatever. Flame me if you must, and if this brands me an open source heritic, so be it - but if Netscape can be distributed for free, AS IN COST, not as in beer, and if it's the only thing we have that's stable, then I think we'd be foolish NOT to include it in the distro. Sorry if I'm grouchy tonight.. Vinny On Tuesday 26 February 2002 08:17 pm, you wrote: On Wednesday 27 February 2002 09:20, Anthony Symons wrote: I primarily use opera, but from time to time there is some page or some javascript that opera wont handle that netscape will. I agree it does crash a lot, but the most recent 4.x isnt too bad and I often use it as a backup browser when nothing else will cope. Various sites with dynamic content come in to this category, as well as some video streams. There are many posts like this. I think the summary is: NS4 belongs in the distro, but on the last (nonfree) download CD. All those in favour? Cheers; Leon __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com
Re: [Cooker] Put NS4 on the last CD
Oops.. I misunderstood. Thought he meant a CD that would only be included in one of the commercially available packs. Sorry. If is on a downloadable CD, then I'm OK with it. V. On Tuesday 26 February 2002 09:29 pm, you wrote: Um...his suggestion was to put it on the last download CD, which you don't have to pay for, by non-free he was using the FSF definition.
