Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
- Original Message - From: Gwenole Beauchesne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, March 22, 2003 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [Cooker] mmx and such On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, Oden Eriksson wrote: I have to concur. Mandrake Linux won't even pass first boot on non i686 due to the /lib/i686 mess. Because of this Mandrake can not state that it runs on i586 and later. Please, don't make broken assumptions and first check facts before saying that. Because obviouly, one should have read your paragraph as: Mandrake [snip] I had a bad day. I shut up now.
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
andre wrote: On Friday 21 March 2003 15:18, Guy.Bormann wrote: [snip] It's not a matter of complaining or not, it's a matter of minimal support. Mandrake Linux is supposed to run on any i586 or newer processor. Period. Even if that means a crazy person is encoding videos on a i586(no MMX), say, 166MHz (or somewhere near) without hardware acceleration Must be surely someone with paaaiinnnccce! Guy Has a VIA C3 mmx support because 966Mhz doesn't sound slow to me VIA C3 AFAIK supports both MMX and 3DNOW: http://www.via.com.tw/jsp/en/products/C3/VIAC31.pdf Bye. Giuseppe.
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Friday 21 March 2003 18:26, Oden Eriksson wrote: If this bug hasn't been fixed yet, Pentium compatiblity doesn't seem to be that important for Mandrake :-) Exactly. And my point is that Mandrake cannot state i586 compability. runs fine here on a k6-2, which is definately not i686 d.
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Fri, 2003-03-21 at 14:57, rowland wrote: On Friday 21 Mar 2003 10:18 pm, Pierre Jarillon wrote: Le Vendredi 21 Mars 2003 18:20, Per Øyvind Karlsen a écrit : does this bug applies to other than via c3's? I thought this bug only existed in 9.0 due to the kernel detecting via c3 as an i686..? Look at : http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/errata.php3#viac3 This bug was reported just after the 9.0 release. are you telling me this bug, for bug it is, is still there in 9.1. Mandrake is supposed to be an i586 compatible OS, so it should be a selectable option to load the i686 directory, not load it as standard. Actually this bug is a bug in the arch of the cpu it reports itself as an i686 even though it's i586 this is a bug in the hardware not necessarily in the kernel. rowland penny
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Saturday 22 Mar 2003 7:29 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: Actually this bug is a bug in the arch of the cpu it reports itself as an i686 even though it's i586 this is a bug in the hardware not necessarily in the kernel. ok there is a bug in C3 cpu, but this would not be a problem if an OS that claimed to be for an i586 cpu did not have that directory /lib/i686. If the directory had not been there in the first place, mandrake 9.0 would not have been tried on epia based pc's by newbies and then rejected/badmouthed as useless because it will not load without jumping through hoops! This gives linux a bad name it does not need or deserve. rowland penny
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Sat Mar 22 20:59 +, rowland wrote: ok there is a bug in C3 cpu, but this would not be a problem if an OS that claimed to be for an i586 cpu did not have that directory /lib/i686. And the bug would also not occur if Mandrake dropped Linux and shipped MandrakeFreeDOS. The root cause of the problem is buggy hardware. Period. End of story. -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The food of love is Mandrake root. GPG Fingerprint: 354C 7A02 77C5 9EE7 8538 4E8D DCD9 B4B0 DC35 67CD Currently playing: Fatal Weakness.ogg Linux 2.4.21-0.13mdk 18:40:00 up 7 days, 21:43, 14 users, load average: 0.08, 0.03, 0.01
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Sat, 2003-03-22 at 12:59, rowland wrote: On Saturday 22 Mar 2003 7:29 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: Actually this bug is a bug in the arch of the cpu it reports itself as an i686 even though it's i586 this is a bug in the hardware not necessarily in the kernel. ok there is a bug in C3 cpu, but this would not be a problem if an OS that claimed to be for an i586 cpu did not have that directory /lib/i686. If the directory had not been there in the first place, mandrake 9.0 would not have been tried on epia based pc's by newbies and then rejected/badmouthed as useless because it will not load without jumping through hoops! This gives linux a bad name it does not need or deserve. rowland penny True but on the other hand without the i686 directory I wouldn't be sending this e-mail.. I'm running on a celeron 500mhz. RH SuSE and Slack all know how to install the i686 optimized kernel and libs so I work better here. RH is i386 SuSE is i586 and Slack is well, Slack. Having the i686 libs if fine and needed if you need the i686 kernel.. I do.
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
[snip] It's not a matter of complaining or not, it's a matter of minimal support. Mandrake Linux is supposed to run on any i586 or newer processor. Period. Even if that means a crazy person is encoding videos on a i586(no MMX), say, 166MHz (or somewhere near) without hardware acceleration Must be surely someone with paaaiinnnccce! Guy
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
OK, maybe this is a really dumb question - I won't even pretend that I'm up to speed on the inner workings of building RPM's.. but would it be possible for the RPM file on something like this to have multiple copies of the appropriate library or binary in the package, and the choice of using the MMX enabled one or the vanilla one be made at package installation time? Sure, means a little more work for the packager - or maybe a LOT more work, I don't know - but would mean for those few applications where an extended instruction set would make a difference can take advantage of the extended instructions while still being able to install on machines without them. Sure, they can learn to grab the source and then all of the -dev packages for all the supporting libraries and roll their own, it isn't that hard.. but not everybody wants to learn to do that. V. On Friday 21 March 2003 09:18 am, Guy.Bormann wrote: [snip] It's not a matter of complaining or not, it's a matter of minimal support. Mandrake Linux is supposed to run on any i586 or newer processor. Period. Even if that means a crazy person is encoding videos on a i586(no MMX), say, 166MHz (or somewhere near) without hardware acceleration Must be surely someone with paaaiinnnccce! Guy
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
- Original Message - From: Guy.Bormann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cooker] mmx and such [snip] It's not a matter of complaining or not, it's a matter of minimal support. Mandrake Linux is supposed to run on any i586 or newer processor. Period. Even if that means a crazy person is encoding videos on a i586(no MMX), say, 166MHz (or somewhere near) without hardware acceleration Must be surely someone with paaaiinnnccce! I have to concur. Mandrake Linux won't even pass first boot on non i686 due to the /lib/i686 mess. Because of this Mandrake can not state that it runs on i586 and later. What's the point with /lib/i686? It isn't possible to have i386, i486, i586, ppc, etc. in there also? gwenole? Chears.
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
Am Freitag, 21. März 2003, 16:43:22 Uhr MET, schrieb Oden Eriksson: I have to concur. Mandrake Linux won't even pass first boot on non i686 due to the /lib/i686 mess. Because of this Mandrake can not state that it runs on i586 and later. What's the point with /lib/i686? It isn't possible to have i386, i486, i586, ppc, etc. in there also? The programs should only use /lib/i686/lib* on i686 processors. Take a look at your /lib directory, there are the i586 versions of the glibs libs. -- What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? Mahatma Gandhi (1869 - 1948), Non-Violence in Peace and War
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
- Original Message - From: Götz Waschk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [Cooker] mmx and such Am Freitag, 21. März 2003, 16:43:22 Uhr MET, schrieb Oden Eriksson: I have to concur. Mandrake Linux won't even pass first boot on non i686 due to the /lib/i686 mess. Because of this Mandrake can not state that it runs on i586 and later. What's the point with /lib/i686? It isn't possible to have i386, i486, i586, ppc, etc. in there also? The programs should only use /lib/i686/lib* on i686 processors. Take a look at your /lib directory, there are the i586 versions of the glibs libs. This is deja vu. We have had this discussion before (not you an I). The problem, or the _huge_ bug if you wish lies in the fact that /lib/i686 is installed, used and looked for despite what arch you may have. This cause problems.
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
Am Freitag, 21. März 2003, 17:42:59 Uhr MET, schrieb Oden Eriksson: The programs should only use /lib/i686/lib* on i686 processors. Take a look at your /lib directory, there are the i586 versions of the glibs libs. The problem, or the _huge_ bug if you wish lies in the fact that /lib/i686 is installed, used and looked for despite what arch you may have. This cause problems. If this bug hasn't been fixed yet, Pentium compatiblity doesn't seem to be that important for Mandrake :-) -- What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? Mahatma Gandhi (1869 - 1948), Non-Violence in Peace and War
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 21 March 2003 17:49, Götz Waschk wrote: Am Freitag, 21. März 2003, 17:42:59 Uhr MET, schrieb Oden Eriksson: The programs should only use /lib/i686/lib* on i686 processors. Take a look at your /lib directory, there are the i586 versions of the glibs libs. The problem, or the _huge_ bug if you wish lies in the fact that /lib/i686 is installed, used and looked for despite what arch you may have. This cause problems. If this bug hasn't been fixed yet, Pentium compatiblity doesn't seem to be that important for Mandrake :-) does this bug applies to other than via c3's? I thought this bug only existed in 9.0 due to the kernel detecting via c3 as an i686..? - -- Regards, Per Øyvind Karlsen Sintrax Solutions http://www.sintrax.net - +47 41681061 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+e0ntv8F7V9JOSuURAg6bAKDc0EvVVTznDwyBwhic2IeLC4IA4wCgqOcJ 7V/HycMmaK/3xzlVEvELCWU= =W5d/ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
- Original Message - From: Götz Waschk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [Cooker] mmx and such Am Freitag, 21. März 2003, 17:42:59 Uhr MET, schrieb Oden Eriksson: The programs should only use /lib/i686/lib* on i686 processors. Take a look at your /lib directory, there are the i586 versions of the glibs libs. The problem, or the _huge_ bug if you wish lies in the fact that /lib/i686 is installed, used and looked for despite what arch you may have. This cause problems. If this bug hasn't been fixed yet, Pentium compatiblity doesn't seem to be that important for Mandrake :-) Exactly. And my point is that Mandrake cannot state i586 compability.
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 21 March 2003 18:26, Oden Eriksson wrote: - Original Message - From: Götz Waschk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [Cooker] mmx and such Am Freitag, 21. März 2003, 17:42:59 Uhr MET, schrieb Oden Eriksson: The programs should only use /lib/i686/lib* on i686 processors. Take a look at your /lib directory, there are the i586 versions of the glibs libs. The problem, or the _huge_ bug if you wish lies in the fact that /lib/i686 is installed, used and looked for despite what arch you may have. This cause problems. If this bug hasn't been fixed yet, Pentium compatiblity doesn't seem to be that important for Mandrake :-) Exactly. And my point is that Mandrake cannot state i586 compability. mandrake runs without a hitch on my p200mmx:) - -- Regards, Per Øyvind Karlsen Sintrax Solutions http://www.sintrax.net - +47 41681061 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+e00Bv8F7V9JOSuURAuUWAJwNS00ywMC1rC9dRsyeAWQude673ACeP3bv wrATdMUjDUTOEf8/A70VyVM= =AZQe -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Friday 21 March 2003 15:18, Guy.Bormann wrote: [snip] It's not a matter of complaining or not, it's a matter of minimal support. Mandrake Linux is supposed to run on any i586 or newer processor. Period. Even if that means a crazy person is encoding videos on a i586(no MMX), say, 166MHz (or somewhere near) without hardware acceleration Must be surely someone with paaaiinnnccce! Guy Has a VIA C3 mmx support because 966Mhz doesn't sound slow to me
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Fri, 2003-03-21 at 07:27, Vincent Meyer, MD wrote: OK, maybe this is a really dumb question - I won't even pretend that I'm up to speed on the inner workings of building RPM's.. but would it be possible for the RPM file on something like this to have multiple copies of the appropriate library or binary in the package, and the choice of using the MMX enabled one or the vanilla one be made at package installation time? Sure, means a little more work for the packager - or maybe a LOT more work, I don't know - but would mean for those few applications where an extended instruction set would make a difference can take advantage of the extended instructions while still being able to install on machines without them. Sure, they can learn to grab the source and then all of the -dev packages for all the supporting libraries and roll their own, it isn't that hard.. but not everybody wants to learn to do that. V. Possible yes... simple no. Whoever said With software anything is possible never watched a geek trying to get a date with a chearleader. *grin* James On Friday 21 March 2003 09:18 am, Guy.Bormann wrote: [snip] It's not a matter of complaining or not, it's a matter of minimal support. Mandrake Linux is supposed to run on any i586 or newer processor. Period. Even if that means a crazy person is encoding videos on a i586(no MMX), say, 166MHz (or somewhere near) without hardware acceleration Must be surely someone with paaaiinnnccce! Guy
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Fri, 2003-03-21 at 07:43, Oden Eriksson wrote: - Original Message - From: Guy.Bormann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cooker] mmx and such [snip] It's not a matter of complaining or not, it's a matter of minimal support. Mandrake Linux is supposed to run on any i586 or newer processor. Period. Even if that means a crazy person is encoding videos on a i586(no MMX), say, 166MHz (or somewhere near) without hardware acceleration Must be surely someone with paaaiinnnccce! I have to concur. Mandrake Linux won't even pass first boot on non i686 due to the /lib/i686 mess. Because of this Mandrake can not state that it runs on i586 and later. What's the point with /lib/i686? It isn't possible to have i386, i486, i586, ppc, etc. in there also? As the box is installing click on the details button.. Then when you see that glibc has been installed change to term window 2 and mv /mnt/lib/i686 to /mnt/lib/i686.no (or some such name) and it will install and boot. The fix is related to the 9.0 problem with the VIA CPU's which are part i686 part i586 and part i486 (Todd gave me the breakdown on day I don't remember how it went.) James gwenole? Chears.
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
Le Vendredi 21 Mars 2003 18:20, Per Øyvind Karlsen a écrit : does this bug applies to other than via c3's? I thought this bug only existed in 9.0 due to the kernel detecting via c3 as an i686..? Look at : http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/errata.php3#viac3 This bug was reported just after the 9.0 release. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Friday 21 Mar 2003 10:18 pm, Pierre Jarillon wrote: Le Vendredi 21 Mars 2003 18:20, Per Øyvind Karlsen a écrit : does this bug applies to other than via c3's? I thought this bug only existed in 9.0 due to the kernel detecting via c3 as an i686..? Look at : http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/errata.php3#viac3 This bug was reported just after the 9.0 release. are you telling me this bug, for bug it is, is still there in 9.1. Mandrake is supposed to be an i586 compatible OS, so it should be a selectable option to load the i686 directory, not load it as standard. rowland penny
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Fri, 21 Mar 2003, Oden Eriksson wrote: I have to concur. Mandrake Linux won't even pass first boot on non i686 due to the /lib/i686 mess. Because of this Mandrake can not state that it runs on i586 and later. Please, don't make broken assumptions and first check facts before saying that. Because obviouly, one should have read your paragraph as: Mandrake Linux *did not* install out-of-the box on a VIA C3 processor because kernel reported it as an i686 though it did not fully support CMOV instruction. And because gcc optimised i686 libraries as i686 (aka. PentiumPro with CMOV feature), that caused illegal instructions on a C3. Since MDK 9.0 release, *months* ago, kernel was fixed and no longer reports any processor as i686 if it does not support cmov instructions. So Mandrake Linux *does* pass first boot on non-i686 thanks to i686 libraries going into a separate directory, namely /lib/i686, then the default ones (i586 in */lib/*). Or you have to point me to a valid bug report telling otherwise. ;-) What's the point with /lib/i686? It isn't possible to have i386, i486, i586, ppc, etc. in there also? - ppc is not arch compatible with x86. - glibc benefits from i686 build because: there are hand-tuned assembly code for i686, floating stacks support along with kernel = 2.4.1, high resolution timers, etc. Bye, Gwenole.
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Fri, 2003-03-21 at 07:43, Oden Eriksson wrote: - Original Message - From: Guy.Bormann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 3:18 PM Subject: Re: [Cooker] mmx and such [snip] It's not a matter of complaining or not, it's a matter of minimal support. Mandrake Linux is supposed to run on any i586 or newer processor. Period. Even if that means a crazy person is encoding videos on a i586(no MMX), say, 166MHz (or somewhere near) without hardware acceleration Must be surely someone with paaaiinnnccce! I have to concur. Mandrake Linux won't even pass first boot on non i686 due to the /lib/i686 mess. Because of this Mandrake can not state that it runs on i586 and later. What's the point with /lib/i686? It isn't possible to have i386, i486, i586, ppc, etc. in there also? Hmmm, this is not true: # cat /proc/cpuinfo processor : 0 vendor_id : GenuineIntel cpu family : 5 model : 2 model name : Pentium 75 - 200 stepping: 12 cpu MHz : 150.347 I wouldn't try encoding any video on it, but it boots, using glibc-2.3.1-10mdk and kernel-2.4.21.0.13mdk. -- _ _ _ _ | |_| | |_/ | | / / -_) | / / | |_\_\___|_|_\_\_| @ sbcglobal.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Cooker] mmx and such
On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, Austin wrote: New policy: it's okay to enable MMX instructions for multimedia applications that are not in main, but a notice must be added to the package description. No. The policy remains the same as usual: any package (main, contribs) shall run on any Pentium or newer processor. However, the following was added for 9.1+: Processor features are passed in the AT_HWCAP entry of auxiliary vector for ELF programs. CPU capabilities on IA-32 are for example mmx, sse, sse2. Glibc loader has a neat feature of looking for optimized libraries in */lib/*/hwcap. That is, in addition to looking for optimized libraries for i586 or i686, it can also look for libraries using specific CPU capabilities, based on what the kernel tells through the AT_HWCAP entry. The goal is to provide target-optimized libraries only for critical packages. Remember the 90-10 rule, aka 90% of the time is spent in 10% of the code. Applications are CPU intensive programs (ciphering et al.). Of course, libraries that may benefit most are those hand-tuned for such features in assembly code. In other words, gcc will perform a poor job at doing that itself since, as of today, it still can't auto-vectorize code for example. Conditions: maintainers know where the bottle-neck is and may enable this optimization on a per package basis. This has to be proven effective, and procedure to reproduce the results must be known. Also, the gain obtained shall exceed 15%. Well, the latter is an arbitrary value greater than 5%. ;-) As far as I know, ffmpeg has always has MMX enabled and nobody has complained yet. It's not a matter of complaining or not, it's a matter of minimal support. Mandrake Linux is supposed to run on any i586 or newer processor. Period. Bye, Gwenole
