[css-d] OT: Don't miss a space

[Philip Taylor]

MiB wrote:



OMG, that was serious. So you’re implying that your tools PREVENTS
you from doing mistakes? So what are these tools then?


My brain and the W3C validator :  the only tools I need.


Maybe a more reasonable question to answer here would be how fast
such a user error can be fixed in a CMS when it is discovered.
That’s much more interesting than to pretend your own code is always
perfect.


I don't pretend.  I write valid code, period.


Are you certain there is never code errors in sites built with
popular CMS products out there.


Of course not.  That is one (of many) reasons why I eschew CMS.


Are you certain no site you’ve built contain even the slightest
error? If so, I must bow to your superior coding.


No site that I have ever built contains invalid code that I have 
written.  If a collaborator chooses to import a module that contains 
invalid code, that code may well make it into the site; this would be 
something over which I have no control.



Care to make this viewpoint interesting? I bet you $1000 I can fix
such a user error in Perch, which I don’t use, significantly faster
than you can in Drupal. I can find a third party, that you will
trust, that can set up such at test with timers. Are you a man or a
mice?


What leads you to believe that :

> Line 435, Column 7: Stray end tag div.
>
>do the Perch developers pay to QA, and why was that particular error not 
picked up before the site went live ?".


Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] OT: Don't miss a space

[Philip Taylor]

Tim Marinin wrote:


Is there, in your opinion, real value from writing only valid code?


Yes.  Writing valid code is the only way of knowing that your material 
renders as you wish by design rather than by chance.



Browsers did great job at making web accept almost everything.


Whence the ubiquity of tag soup.


You can even don't write ,  and  tags, and all
browsers will render good.


Just as it is possible to express oneself in less than perfect English 
and still hope to be understood.   But the fact that browsers, and most 
human beings, are so forgiving is no reason not to /try/ to write 
formally correct HTML or to write grammatically correct English.



So, that's the point of spending time to fixing all errors from
validators? Besides „my-code-is-super-valid“ ego.


See response 1, above :  so that you can have confidence that your 
material renders as you wish by design rather than by chance.  If you 
write invalid code, it may render as you wish today, in the browser(s) 
in which you test it, on the platform(s) on which you test it, at the 
screen resolutions (etc) at which you test it.  And tomorrow, when the 
wind blows from a different direction, it may render completely 
differently.  If, however, you expend a little effort in ensuring that 
you write only /valid/ code, then if it renders today as you would wish, 
there is an /extremely/ high probability that it will continue to render 
correctly tomorrow, and the day after, and on other browsers/platforms, 
and at other resolutions (etc) ...


Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Hi Guys,
Pardon me while I interject, but if your using Wordpress, CSS Javascript 
toolbox (CJT) wont let you get away with bad code. :)
They even have an advanced theme and plugin editor that will show you if 
someone's plugin has bad code and give you descriptions of the error.

https://wordpress.org/plugins/css-javascript-toolbox/

https://wordpress.org/plugins/cjte-advanced-plugins-editor/
https://wordpress.org/plugins/cjte-advanced-theme-editor/

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Best,

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com



On Nov 24, 2014, at 12:00 AM, MiB  wrote:

>  tools PREVENTS you from doing mistakes? So what are these tools then?

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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Crest Christopher]

If I have a 4096 width resolution, I know what are thinking and have 
said already :-) I divide by a 320px width container that works out to 
12.8% my container/div has transformed what previously was working well 
as a responsive container/div now turned into an extremely narrow 
container/div that looks horrible ?


Christopher
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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Crest Christopher]

What do you mean, make images width:100% like this;

img {width:100%} ?
With regards to the image in a div I assume you mean this;

div {width:76%} ?

In other words the image will scale without multiple resolutions of the 
same image ?


Christopher


Hi Christopher
With firefox, you can set different screen sizes in their responsive 
layout mode. VERY helpful.
One thing I have found to be a good method with images is to make them 
width: 100%

and then wrap them in a div and set the images size with the div.

Also, set the images div's size in percentages based on that div's parent
and you will then have a fluid/liquid image in a container that you 
can have size up or down respectfully.
If when resizing the viewport your image gets too big or too small, 
then set a MQ with a min-width or max-width;




Karl DeSaulniers 
Sunday, November 23, 2014 8:26 PM

Hi Christopher
With firefox, you can set different screen sizes in their responsive 
layout mode. VERY helpful.
One thing I have found to be a good method with images is to make them 
width: 100%

and then wrap them in a div and set the images size with the div.

Also, set the images div's size in percentages based on that div's parent
and you will then have a fluid/liquid image in a container that you 
can have size up or down respectfully.
If when resizing the viewport your image gets too big or too small, 
then set a MQ with a min-width or max-width;


IMO... NEVER set a max-width on an  itself.

2¢

Here is somthing I got when I went looking on Google for this same info.
CSS-Tricks:


/*CSS @media skeleton by Tirumal - April 28, 2013 - 
http://code-tricks.com/css-media-queries-for-common-devices/*/

@charset "UTF-8";

/*Most Popular Screen Resolutions

Desktops & Laptops
1024×768 and higher

iPhone
5: 1136×640

4S: 640×960

3GS: 320×480

iPad
First & second generations: 1024×768

Third generation: 2048×1536

iPad Mini
1024×768

Android Phones & Tablets
Most phones are 320px wide or 360px wide, and most tablets are 800px 
wide.
When designing for them, however, it is typical for developers to 
break them

into the following groups based on their Density-independent pixel (dp),
which is the minimum screen size.

Small screens: 426dp x 320dp

Normal screens: 470dp x 320dp

Large screens: 640dp x 480dp

Extra-large screens: 960dp x 720dp*/

/* All Smartphones in portrait and landscape --- */
@media only screen
and (min-device-width : 320px)
and (max-device-width : 480px) {
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* All Smartphones in landscape --- */
@media only screen
and (min-width : 321px) {
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* All Smartphones in portrait --- */
@media only screen
and (max-width : 479px) {
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* ANDROID DEVICES */

/* Android 240 X 320 --- */
@media only screen
and (max-width: 241px){
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* Android(Samsung Galaxy) in portrait 380 X 685 --- */
@media only screen
and (min-width: 375px)
and (max-width: 385px){
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* Android(Samsung Galaxy) in Landscape 685 X 380 --- */
@media only screen
and (min-width: 680px)
and (max-width: 690px){
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* Kindle Portrait 600 X 1024 --- */
@media only screen
and (min-width: 595px)
and (max-width: 610px){
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* Kindle Landscape 1024 X 600 --- */
@media only screen
and (min-width: 1000px)
and (max-width: 1030px){
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* ALL GENERATION IPADS */

/* iPads in portrait and landscape--- */
@media only screen
and (min-device-width : 768px)
and (max-device-width : 1024px) {
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* iPad in landscape--- */
@media only screen
and (min-device-width : 768px)
and (max-device-width : 1024px)
and (orientation : landscape) {
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* iPad in portrait--- */
@media only screen
and (min-device-width : 768px)
and (max-device-width : 1024px)
and (orientation : portrait){
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}



/* Retina IPAD 3 & 4*/

/* Retina iPad 3 & 4 in portrait and landscape--- */
@media only screen
and (min-device-width : 768px)
and (max-device-width : 1024px)
and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio: 2){
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* Retina iPad 3 & 4 in landscape--- */

@media only screen
and (min-device-width : 768px)
and (max-device-width : 1024px)
and (orientation : landscape)
and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio: 2){
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}

/* Retina iPad 3 & 4 in landscape--- */

@media only screen
and (min-device-width : 768px)
and (max-device-width : 1024px)
and (orientation : portrait)
and (-webkit-min-device-pixel-ratio: 2){
/* YOUR STYLE GOES HERE */
}




/* IPAD 1 & 2 (ALSO IPAD MINI)*/

/* iPad 1 & 2 in portrait and landscape --- */
@media only screen
and (min-device-width : 768px)
and (max-device-width : 1024px)
and (-webkit-min-device-p

Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Crest Christopher]

What do you mean, make images width:100% like this;
img {width:100%} ?

With regards to the image in a div I assume you mean this;

div {width:76%} ?

In other words the image will scale without multiple resolutions of the 
same image ?


Christopher


Hi Christopher
With firefox, you can set different screen sizes in their responsive 
layout mode. VERY helpful.
One thing I have found to be a good method with images is to make them 
width: 100%

and then wrap them in a div and set the images size with the div.

Also, set the images div's size in percentages based on that div's parent
and you will then have a fluid/liquid image in a container that you 
can have size up or down respectfully.
If when resizing the viewport your image gets too big or too small, 
then set a MQ with a min-width or max-width;

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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Tom Livingston]

On Mon Nov 24 2014 at 9:30:08 AM Crest Christopher <
crestchristop...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What do you mean, make images width:100% like this;
>
> img {width:100%} ?
> With regards to the image in a div I assume you mean this;
> 
> div {width:76%} ?
>
> In other words the image will scale without multiple resolutions of the
> same image ?
>
>
>
Use that with caution. Don't deliver a 4000px wide image to a phone and
don't scale a 200px wide image to 960px wide on your desktop.

see picturefill.js http://scottjehl.github.io/picturefill/
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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Tom Livingston]

On Mon Nov 24 2014 at 9:27:25 AM Crest Christopher <
crestchristop...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> as a responsive container/div now turned into an extremely narrow
> container/div that looks horrible ?
>
> Christopher
>

Enter Media Queries stage left and... ACTION!

On small screens, you'd have a different layout so as to avoid this. Stack
your columns instead of side-by-side. When the viewport is wide enough to
support side-by-side columns that aren't ridiculously narrow, add a
breakpoint and add styles at that point to reposition the stacked columns
to be side-by-side.
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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Crest Christopher]

When I divide the a container/div, suppose one of my containers/div 
which is 360px in width by lets say extremely large 4096px the result is 
a 11.3% container/div on a 360px width device the container/div is not 
even a container/div any longer rather a long, slim rectangular box, 
that is why I said, in this scenario I have to use MQ instead of 
percentages.


Christopher


Tom Livingston 
Monday, November 24, 2014 9:47 AM
Um, not necessarily. Your stacked columns that I mentioned could be 
90% of the viewport, for example, so as to give you a nice margin on 
the right and left (using margin 0 auto 0 auto;). That 90% could 
continue up to the point that the layout can support side-by-side.




Tom Livingston 
Monday, November 24, 2014 9:40 AM


crestchristop...@gmail.com 


as a responsive container/div now turned into an extremely narrow
container/div that looks horrible ?

Christopher


Enter Media Queries stage left and... ACTION!

On small screens, you'd have a different layout so as to avoid this. 
Stack your columns instead of side-by-side. When the viewport is wide 
enough to support side-by-side columns that aren't ridiculously 
narrow, add a breakpoint and add styles at that point to reposition 
the stacked columns to be side-by-side.





Crest Christopher 
Monday, November 24, 2014 9:27 AM
If I have a 4096 width resolution, I know what are thinking and have 
said already :-) I divide by a 320px width container that works out to 
12.8% my container/div has transformed what previously was working 
well as a responsive container/div now turned into an extremely narrow 
container/div that looks horrible ?


Christopher
Tom Livingston 
Sunday, November 23, 2014 8:29 PM
I don't recommend using all of these 'just because'. Good info though.
On Sun, Nov 23, 2014 at 8:27 PM Karl DeSaulniers 
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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[MiB]

nov 24 2014 12:26 Karl DeSaulniers :

> Hi Guys,
> Pardon me while I interject, but if your using Wordpress, CSS Javascript 
> toolbox (CJT) wont let you get away with bad code. :)
> They even have an advanced theme and plugin editor that will show you if 
> someone's plugin has bad code and give you descriptions of the error.

Yes, that is definitely impressive. I’ll give you that. Unfortunately that will 
not prevent developers from posting laughable and invalid code in Wordpress 
anyway. Wordpress is one of the CMSes where you often can find the worst code 
on the internet.

IMHO structurally unsound code is much worse than a stray surplus coding tag 
that hardly is affecting the site experience as much as the former. It can 
certainly look bad depending on the actual effect. But I digress. I keep 
forgetting to just talk CSS. Sorry about that.
After all CSS is more interesting.




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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Laughable maybe, invalid NO. 
Whole reason for my post. 

Best,
Karl

Sent from losPhone

> On Nov 24, 2014, at 12:38 PM, MiB  wrote:
> 
> 
> nov 24 2014 12:26 Karl DeSaulniers :
> 
>> Hi Guys,
>> Pardon me while I interject, but if your using Wordpress, CSS Javascript 
>> toolbox (CJT) wont let you get away with bad code. :)
>> They even have an advanced theme and plugin editor that will show you if 
>> someone's plugin has bad code and give you descriptions of the error.
> 
> Yes, that is definitely impressive. I’ll give you that. Unfortunately that 
> will not prevent developers from posting laughable and invalid code in 
> Wordpress anyway. Wordpress is one of the CMSes where you often can find the 
> worst code on the internet.
> 
> IMHO structurally unsound code is much worse than a stray surplus coding tag 
> that hardly is affecting the site experience as much as the former. It can 
> certainly look bad depending on the actual effect. But I digress. I keep 
> forgetting to just talk CSS. Sorry about that.
> After all CSS is more interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Philip Taylor]

Karl DeSaulniers wrote:


Laughable maybe, invalid NO.


http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=https://.wordpress.com/

Very first site I tried.
Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Jon Reece]

On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 6:20 PM, Philip Taylor  wrote:

> Karl DeSaulniers wrote:
>
>  Laughable maybe, invalid NO.
>>
>
> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=https://.wordpress.com/
>
> Very first site I tried.
>

​Apparently, even the W3C have trouble keeping all of their pages passing
validation ;)

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http://www.w3.org/blog/dpub/2014/10/01/new-draft-for-the-requirements-for-latin-text-layout-and-pagination-published/


-- 
Jon Reece
jon.re...@gmail.com
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[css-d] Form does not appear in IE8

[J.C. Berry]

Hello all,

On this page
http://promotions.xifin.com/Total-Cost-of-Billing_WP.html

The form inside this HTML

   

   


Does not appear in IE8. Could you take a look? My IE dev toolbar is not
working correctly and I've been working on it for hours.

-- 
J.C. Berry, M.A.
UI Developer
619.306.1712(m)
jcharlesbe...@gmail.com
http://www.mindarc.com


This E-mail is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18
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Re: [css-d] Form does not appear in IE8

[Angela French]

Maybe you need to put a few form elements in it.

-Original Message-
From: css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org 
[mailto:css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of J.C. Berry
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2014 3:47 PM
To: CSS-D
Subject: [css-d] Form does not appear in IE8

Hello all,

On this page
http://promotions.xifin.com/Total-Cost-of-Billing_WP.html

The form inside this HTML

   

   


Does not appear in IE8. Could you take a look? My IE dev toolbar is not working 
correctly and I've been working on it for hours.

--
J.C. Berry, M.A.
UI Developer
619.306.1712(m)
jcharlesbe...@gmail.com
http://www.mindarc.com


This E-mail is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 
?? 2510-2521 and is legally privileged. This information is confidential 
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above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are 
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this 
communication is strictly prohibited.

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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[MiB]

nov 25 2014 00:03 Karl DeSaulniers :

> Laughable maybe, invalid NO. 
> Whole reason for my post. 

OK, but I find it a tad pretentious to argue you know the specific code of 
hundreds of thousands of web sites built with Word press. You obviously do not 
know this and neither do I. We just have differing experiences there of actual 
code in the wild.  

What I find more likely is that you’ve found that the features of Wordpress, 
since version something that you describe, helps you know that your 
Wordpress-built sites doesn’t contain validation errors. And that’s a good 
thing of course.



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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[MiB]

nov 25 2014 00:39 Jon Reece :

> ​Apparently, even the W3C have trouble keeping all of their pages passing
> validation ;)

Unless it’s intentional. Maybe they’re just not using Wordpress?
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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Karl DeSaulniers]

Not talking about Wordpress itself, I'm talking about pages you build IN 
Wordpress for your own site. lol.
Wordpress itself is a mess. But people who pay the bills use it and want me to 
edit on it. so these tools have helped me keep error free for the most part.
Haven't used it long enough to know if it is 100%, but its better then 0%.

Best,

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com



On Nov 24, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Philip Taylor  wrote:

> 
> 
> Karl DeSaulniers wrote:
> 
>> Laughable maybe, invalid NO.
> 
> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=https://.wordpress.com/
> 
> Very first site I tried.
> Philip Taylor
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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[Karl DeSaulniers]

On Nov 24, 2014, at 10:06 PM, MiB  wrote:

> 
> nov 25 2014 00:03 Karl DeSaulniers :
> 
>> Laughable maybe, invalid NO. 
>> Whole reason for my post. 
> 
> OK, but I find it a tad pretentious to argue you know the specific code of 
> hundreds of thousands of web sites built with Word press. You obviously do 
> not know this and neither do I. We just have differing experiences there of 
> actual code in the wild.  

Hi MiB,
Not sure how you got all that from my post. When did I argue I knew that? I 
just simply gave an example of a tool that helps people write valid code in 
Wordpress (a CMS). You asked Phillip what tools he used. I just happened to be 
looking at these at the exact moment you asked that question. Seemed like fate. 
So I shared.

In regards to what you asked here, If they are using these plugins and actually 
fixing any errors they find, then yes I know (without pretension) their code 
will be valid. It's the reason these plugins were created. lol

> 
> What I find more likely is that you’ve found that the features of Wordpress, 
> since version something that you describe, helps you know that your 
> Wordpress-built sites doesn’t contain validation errors. And that’s a good 
> thing of course.
> 

Exactly ;)

> 

I think what is the fundamental problem here and the reason things like CMSs 
exist is because not enough people are being educated correctly on how to do 
all this stuff, but the machine waits for nobody and so people learn on the 
fly, make mistakes and someone else or themselves have to come fix it. They 
create these CMSs so others don't have to learn how to do all that other stuff 
and its easier to keep up with the machine. However, if your going to be 
putting together a CMS for others to use and advertise it as a solid CMS, then 
I would have to say those Dev's need to be on top of their game. No room for 
mistakes. At the very least make sure the home page has no flaws. But now I am 
OT and will digress.

Best,

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [css-d] Form does not appear in IE8

[Karl DeSaulniers]

On Nov 24, 2014, at 5:47 PM, "J.C. Berry"  wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> On this page
> http://promotions.xifin.com/Total-Cost-of-Billing_WP.html
> 
> The form inside this HTML
> 
>
>
>   
> 
> 
> Does not appear in IE8. Could you take a look? My IE dev toolbar is not
> working correctly and I've been working on it for hours.
> 
> -- 
> J.C. Berry, M.A.
> UI Developer
> 619.306.1712(m)
> jcharlesbe...@gmail.com
> http://www.mindarc.com


The span with this class="lpContentsItem formSpan"

Has no height or width in safari. I am guessing that IE is treating this 
literally.
Can't get on my PC to check IE atm, but have run into similar problems with IE 
myself.
Run your page through a validator. Might help some.

HTH,

Karl DeSaulniers
Design Drumm
http://designdrumm.com

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Re: [css-d] Don't miss a space

[MiB]

nov 25 2014 07:38 Karl DeSaulniers :

> However, if your going to be putting together a CMS for others to use and 
> advertise it as a solid CMS, then I would have to say those Dev's need to be 
> on top of their game. No room for mistakes. At the very least make sure the 
> home page has no flaws.

Yes, I agree with this. But of course it can also be argued that 100% 
validation is seldom the primary objective. If the site works without user 
issues, which in my case means all automatic GUI tests pass and no reports are 
coming in of malfunction, then the site is working. Whether it also validates 
fully may be a moot point and not be considered a "flaw” out of a business 
perspective. I’ve been forced to kicking and screaming have to publish sites 
that didn’t fully validate, but if I can help it I won’t allow this myself. I 
just know there’s fine but distinct line between what can constitute both a 
technical and a business flaw.

Because a specific web page may have these outcomes:

1. It may fulfill the business requirements and be technically without (known) 
flaws (Best IMHO) 
2. it may fulfill the business requirements and have technical flaws that does 
not affect the former  (Acceptable)
3. it may fail to fulfill the business requirements and be technically without 
(known) flaws (Unacceptable)
4. it may fail to fulfill the business requirements and have technical flaws 
that affects the former or not (Unacceptable)

The outcomes 2 and 3 illustrates my point, I think.

I try not to worry too much about if my CSS and HTML code validates, but 
usually it does.  
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