Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
I will say this,.. "Ar-r-r-r-rg!" Ok, now that that's out of the way. I do hate this: http://www.kasmarkgroup.com/ I had reason to go their site (not windows software biz! ;-( And it broke so bad in FF, looking at the source in the DOM inspector I lost count of the tables!!! "Tables of Mass(poor) Construction", I FOUND THEM!!! OVER HERE!!! OK, so I'm out of here and off to CSS land, I'll come back some day when I'm a full grown idiot! Thanks and bye. - JJ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
No, I sympathise with that sentiment. I too build for compliant browsers, but also understand that I need to account for non-compliant browsers. I think you'll find that, despite the initial shock of entering this minefield, once your skills reach a certain level, you will know how to work around their shortcominngs with minimal use of hacks and filters. They can come back and bite you in the bum, ie IE7 will not read the * html hack for example. Think of it as a challenge and an emerging art form, and accept the shortcomings. Otherwise lunacy awaits my friend. __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
On Oct 26, 2006, at 12:01 PM, Css Discuss wrote: > I could easily just build for standards compliant browsers. You do understand that the total market share for standards-compliant browsers is well under 20% (the real picky ones would say under 1%), don't you? Have Fun, Arlen -- In God we trust, all others must supply data __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
I've been looking at one of the links that I was offered in a previous email, one about hacks. http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssHack Something about it angers me. I could easily just build for standards compliant browsers. In fact I think that's what I've decided to do. Study the standard, build only for the standard, and keep making a living with programming. I can incorporate standards compliant markup into my data output HTML templates, it shouldn't break to many things. Then perhaps if IE still holds the lead in use and does become a "standards" browser, it will catch up to my work. At least this morning, I don't think I'll build any hack or work around into my markup. If I need that for a job, I'll come back here and hire one of you good people to do so. Now I thnk I can feel good about what I'm doing, a rightous quest! "Halt! Who goes there?" " It is I, Arthur, son of Uther Pendragon, from the castle of Camelot. King of the Britons, defeater of the Saxons, Sovereign of all England!..." " We have ridden the length and breadth of the land in search of knights who will join me in my court at Camelot. I must speak with your lord and master..." " What? Ridden on a horse?" "Yes!" " You're using coconuts!" (http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-01.htm) You know, kinda' like that. ;-) - JJ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
jj: At 4:58 PM -0600 10/24/06, Css Discuss wrote: >I am a PHP programmer who used to do only front end stuff in the time before >managers accepted CSS as a valid way to mark up web pages. Same here, but I'm a multilingual programmer. :-) >Now I'd really like to get up to speed on CSS but everytime I start to get >into it, it seems like, "oh to make that work in that browser I'll need this >work around, or it's going to do this or that". > >That sucks!!! Is there no logic here? There's logic, but it's not consistent across all browsers. You see, it has just been different programmers trying to solve the same problem from different perspectives and interest (the browser wars). Some got it right and some didn't -- IE being the worse offender and primarily because of self-interest -- IMO. >What do YOU (plural) do? I try to avoid differences and not use hacks. However, I also embed php inside css to make things work for me (but, not for the programmed-challenged). >Do you say, "I'm sticking ot standards, piss on your browser if it doesn't >look good!"? >Your clients will like that. If you tell them what they can/can't have and they accept those conditions, then they have no reason to be pissed. It's the same as any programming task, you can't do everything. If a client said he wanted his computer to fly just using php, I'm sure you would tell him it can't be done without wings and other wax, right? The web is no different, it has limitations. >Do you make your pages simple so that there's flexability in the design, so >that browsers don't notice the difference? >(Think Google) Simplicity is always the best for all solutions, right? Simplicity comes from understanding complexity. What we provide to our clients is supposed to be simple, which imposes a great deal of complexity on us. I've always said that the simpler my program is to the client, the more effort I put into it on my end. Simplicity has it's price. >Do you go bonkers (or spend a ton of time) learning the work arounds so that >instead of a specialist in CSS you become a specialist in the work arounds >that hopefully will be gone in a few years?!?! The "normal" evolution of a css programmer is to go bonkers until you learn enough to avoid problems by applying the right techniques to the right problems -- same as any other language. >I'd really like to get good with CSS, even REALLY good, I totally intrigued >by them, as much as programming. >It just feels hiking in deep mud,.. WAY too much work. I need to earn a >living here. Oh, you want to earn a living -- well that's different. Just go back to using tables, turn out crap for the windozes suits, and cash your checks. If they want an "accepted" css layout, then import a simple css defining a font. Besides, they won't know any better anyway. In the meantime, learn. Eventually, you'll convert over because it is actually easier to do css than to do it the old table based way. And in doing so, not only will you knock out better sites, but will do so with more functionality, shorter development time, less maintenance, and more accessibility for all. It's a win-win for all. The big problem here, as always, is convincing management that they thought of it first. hth's tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
Hello all, Thanks again for the input and the links. I have been made aware that by replying to emails in the same way I post to google groups ( bottom posting and leaving original text) I've been creating huge emails! Sorry about that. Won't happen again. ;-) - JJ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
On Oct 24, 2006, at 5:58 PM, Css Discuss wrote: > What do YOU (plural) do? > > Do you say, "I'm sticking ot standards, piss on your browser if it > doesn't > look good!"? Nope. > Do you make your pages simple so that there's flexability in the > design, so > that browsers don't notice the difference? > (Think Google) Almost got it, but that's also a bit extreme. > Do you go bonkers (or spend a ton of time) learning the work > arounds so that > instead of a specialist in CSS you become a specialist in the work > arounds > that hopefully will be gone in a few years?!?! Exaggerated, but yes. Exaggerated, because it doesn't take tons of time. Rachel Andrew, bless her heart, has pulled together a bunch of them in CSS Anthology (Sitepoint) and Joe Lowery's CSS Hacks and Filters is another good source. Websites like http://tantek.com/ and http://www.positioniseverything.net/ as well as css-d's own http:// css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssHack will give you most of what you need. You can spend a few free hours gaining a general familiarity with the concepts, to help you find the required hack/filter faster when you need it, or you can wait until you're up against it and then look for it. They key word in your "gone in a few years" comment is "hopefully." Most of the particular bugs will be gone in a few years, though some will, I'm sure, still be with us. The background-position: fixed bug of IE5 was still there in 5.5, and in 6, and it may quite possibly still be there in 7 (I haven't looked for it there, yet). So it stayed around for a decade, give or take. But even if the particular bug that a workaround was designed for is fixed, it'll be several more years after that before you can safely stop working around it, because your audience will continue to use buggy browsers. Those of us who survived Netscape 4.0 can tell you it quite often seems users are most attached to the browsers that perform the worst. And besides that, you can often use the workaround to make something else work as well. So you're not spending time learning techniques you'll only use for a few months or a year. The general idea behind the hacks and filters will be useful for many years to come. There's a lot to be said for Budd's POV, you should never get so you rely on only one tool, but they remain useful tools in your toolbox and it would be foolish to refrain from using them entirely. > I'd really like to get good with CSS, even REALLY good, I totally > intrigued > by them, as much as programming. > It just feels hiking in deep mud,.. WAY too much work. I need to > earn a > living here. Get familiar with a concept Covey calls "Sharpen the Saw." You need to do things today that won't pay off until later, things which will keep your skills sharp and keep you from becoming obsolete. This is one of those things. No, you won't get paid for it today, but without it you may not get paid tomorrow. You can't keep cutting wood efficiently if you don't keep the saw sharp. Hey, if it was easy, *anyone* could do it. And *then* how would you get paid for it? Have Fun, Arlen -- In God we trust, all others must supply data __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
@Georg - I agree with not learning workarounds. One of the greatest potential failings for me (especially when I started *having* to deliver almost identical rendering for IE Win / standards-compliant browsers) was that I started to use workarounds (and even a few hacks) as standard - which is awful, awful practice. Workarounds should never be learned - if they are absolutely necessary they should be specifically implemented for the situation at hand, from scratch. Because cross-browser rendering is a teeming jungle, you're better off learning the terrain rather than the paths, because paths off the beaten track are quickly overgrown. :) Regards, Barney __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
Css Discuss wrote: > I am a PHP programmer who used to do only front end stuff in the time > before managers accepted CSS as a valid way to mark up web pages. ...and I'm a semi-retired software/hardware developer and professional problem-solver, that now spends available time on making mark up/CSS work for myself and others - both as a job and as a hobby. > Now I'd really like to get up to speed on CSS but everytime I start > to get into it, it seems like, "oh to make that work in that browser > I'll need this work around, or it's going to do this or that". > > That sucks!!! Is there no logic here? Not much... :-) ...and what's there will probably be deprecated pretty soon anyway - if not by W3C then by some over-eager standardista. The logic is that CSS is an _addition_ to proper mark up. CSS can add presentational "magic" to good mark up. CSS can not do much to improve documents with weak mark up, no matter how hard one tries. > So is sticking to the "CSS High Road" like being in Mad Max and > wanting to drive a car. "Yeah there're cool but there's no gas for > 100 miles and if you want parts you'll have to kill someone for them! > Oh yeah and watch out for the guy on the helicopter thing with the > snakes!!!" Pretty close to the facts of life in general, and the web isn't an exclusion-zone. > What do YOU (plural) do? > > Do you say, "I'm sticking ot standards, piss on your browser if it > doesn't look good!"? That's my recipe (but I usually don't say it out loud). > Your clients will like that. Yeah, they do... :-) ...and then they pay the bills and come back for more of the same. Works every time, but of course: it did take a while to _make_ it work. > Do you make your pages simple so that there's flexability in the > design, so that browsers don't notice the difference? (Think Google) Definitely not! Much better to make it as complex as possible, so we're sure to provoke at least a few dozen bugs and manage to make it look different in every single browser on earth. Keeps boredom out of web design :-) No need to go easy on those browsers, and UAs in general. We provide them with proper 'mark up' and 'style', and its their job to deliver to the end-user. If they don't do their job properly, then we may have to force them to by any means necessary. Make sure *not* to add anything beyond standards _until_ it is _absolutely necessary_, as most solutions can be found in those standards. Lack of standard-support across browser-land is of course a constant problem - still, and that's why (even non-valid) workarounds may be the only solution at times. > Do you go bonkers (or spend a ton of time) learning the work arounds > so that instead of a specialist in CSS you become a specialist in > the work arounds that hopefully will be gone in a few years?!?! I don't bother to learn workarounds, as either I remember them - or where someone has documented them - when they are needed, or I can ask someone else. And, you're right: the need for certain workarounds will (hopefully) be gone in a few years - and/or be replaced by the need for entirely new ones. It's a waste of time to learn more than a few of them. Spending a few hours each month on studying standards and the effect they have - or doesn't have - on browsers, is a much more efficient use of time. > I'd really like to get good with CSS, even REALLY good, I totally > intrigued by them, as much as programming. It just feels hiking in > deep mud,.. WAY too much work. I need to earn a living here. A little resistance _now_ is good for your future career. Wouldn't be any need for us if our jobs didn't require a certain amount of work and insight. > I need a pep talk! Ok... Most mark up/CSS related problems are in the mind of the designer/coder, not in the standards or those browsers. Clean up your mind first, and apply CSS second. Once you have gotten the hang of it it's no big deal. May take from three months to three years to reach a comfortable level, and from there it's a continuous learning-process until the whole thing gets deprecated and replaced by something else and hopefully better. So, the process is not much different from learning any other skill. If you like what you're doing, then the entire learning-process can be a lot of fun. It is to me, and it keeps getting funnier :-) See you around. regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
This definitely has been an interesting thread, very nice input from all,
thank you!
Not to defend, but just to share, my whole background in any of my internet
work has been, "study now, benefit later". In the mid-late '90's I took the
"Learn HTML in 30 days" book and sat in front of it and my computer for 30
days. My wife thought I was nuts! Programming was the same, everything has
been self taught. I had the good fortune of working with an internet
start-up in the SF Bay Area in the late 90's with some very excellent
programmers. A couple of whom now are big shots at BEA. They were patient
with me and just laughed behind my back and not to my face, that helped! ;-)
Perl, Java, SQL yummy! One was my manager, he walked in my office one day
with the O'Rielly vim book and said here, install that and learn this. If
your going to work with UNIX programmers you have to know vim. I was given
an clean box and a copy of Linux and told to install and use. Have a nice
day. To that point I had been all windows. (that's why I love my mac, best
of both worlds! Plus, duel mac monitors rules!!!)
As far as CSS, I got all behind standards about 2 or 3 years ago. When did
Zeldmans book on standards come out? I actually to that on vacation one
winter and read it by the fire up in Bear Valley! Smart guy, but somewhat of
a rant I must say, but there is(was/is) allot to rant about!
I actually agreed with him totally and was ready to really get into it, and
a huge programming project came along and the rest is history. I bought the
books, but time got away from me.
My initial interest in internet was to publish digital artwork to the world
for free. Publish and free where terms that were not synonymous when I was
playing music. As 20 something working musicians it was blood sweat and
tears to get anything out there, and along comes the web and now the likes
of You Tube!
You youngin's don't know how easy you have it! ;-)
Ok, so much for my going on. (Fresh coffee buzz in the AM 8^)
I'm done being discourged and irritated by the likes of this:
/* IE5.x/Win hacks */
#main {width: 960px; voice-family: "\"}\""; voice-family: inherit;
width: 750px;}
#content {width: 585px; voice-family: "\"}\""; voice-family: inherit;
width: 540px;}
#sidebar {width: 155px; voice-family: "\"}\""; voice-family: inherit;
width: 140px;}
#ish a:link, #ish a:visited {height: 65px; voice-family: "\"}\"";
voice-family: inherit; height: 52px;}
/* IE5/Mac hacks */
/*\*//*/
#navbar {padding-top: 0.75em; height: 1.66em;}
#navbar li a {display: inline;}
/**/
Now I've just got to remember what it' supposed to do. I know I read about
it somwhere once before.
Thanks again, I will be following the links and checking them out.
The goal is to set aside a bit of time each day and refresh the brain on CSS
and Standards.
I will be here checking the list at least once a day, this seems like a very
cool group of people.
Take care, See ya'
- JJ
On 10/25/06, Arlen Walker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 24, 2006, at 5:58 PM, Css Discuss wrote:
>
> > What do YOU (plural) do?
> >
> > Do you say, "I'm sticking ot standards, piss on your browser if it
> > doesn't
> > look good!"?
>
> Nope.
>
> > Do you make your pages simple so that there's flexability in the
> > design, so
> > that browsers don't notice the difference?
> > (Think Google)
>
> Almost got it, but that's also a bit extreme.
>
> > Do you go bonkers (or spend a ton of time) learning the work
> > arounds so that
> > instead of a specialist in CSS you become a specialist in the work
> > arounds
> > that hopefully will be gone in a few years?!?!
>
> Exaggerated, but yes. Exaggerated, because it doesn't take tons of
> time. Rachel Andrew, bless her heart, has pulled together a bunch of
> them in CSS Anthology (Sitepoint) and Joe Lowery's CSS Hacks and
> Filters is another good source. Websites like http://tantek.com/ and
> http://www.positioniseverything.net/ as well as css-d's own http://
> css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssHack will give you most of what you
> need. You can spend a few free hours gaining a general familiarity
> with the concepts, to help you find the required hack/filter faster
> when you need it, or you can wait until you're up against it and then
> look for it.
>
> They key word in your "gone in a few years" comment is "hopefully."
> Most of the particular bugs will be gone in a few years, though some
> will, I'm sure, still be with us. The background-position: fixed bug
> of IE5 was still there in 5.5, and in 6, and it may quite possibly
> still be there in 7 (I haven't looked for it there, yet). So it
> stayed around for a decade, give or take.
>
> But even if the particular bug that a workaround was designed for is
> fixed, it'll be several more years after that before you can safely
> stop working around it, because your audience will continue to use
> buggy browsers. Those of us who survived Netscape 4.0 can tell you it
> quite often seems users are most attached to the brows
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
Hi JJ: > Now I'd really like to get up to speed on CSS but everytime I start to get > into it, it seems like, "oh to make that work in that browser I'll need this > work around, or it's going to do this or that". > > That sucks!!! Is there no logic here? No, there's logic there. :) Other people have recommended reading the specs and that's probably a good idea, but I admit they were too much for me, originally. Maybe with your programming background they would come easier. An easier read is Eric Meyer's (listMom) Cascading Style Sheet (an O'Reilly book). > So is sticking to the "CSS High Road" like being in Mad Max and wanting to > drive a car. "Yeah there're cool but there's no gas for 100 miles and if you > want parts you'll have to kill someone for them! Oh yeah and watch out for > the guy on the helicopter thing with the snakes!!!" > > What do YOU (plural) do? What do I do? I study the information first, the html, and decide what markup to do, what makes sense information-wise. Then I mark up the main divisions, put a background color in and make sure it all fits together. and, as opposed to the conceived wisdom, I work mainly in firefox or mozilla but i check at this point to make sure IE is reading it right, if not, its easier to make adjustments or figure out what's going on - mainly because I don't have all the formatting styles in yet, cluttering up my css. Then I start putting in the detail. Mainly I don't do anything special for IE (i've used conditional comments some but not all the time) and I've done stuff much more complicated than google. ;) just when it has to be absolutely pixel perfect have i used conditional comments. > Do you say, "I'm sticking ot standards, piss on your browser if it doesn't > look good!"? > Your clients will like that. no, you always have to pay attention to IE, its a fact of life, and at this point I don't mind it - I sorta feel sorry for IE sometimes, actually. and really, it hasn't been a real big deal. firefox and mozilla have their quirks, too. at least with mozilla i ran into one recently and had to ask for help here and got it really fast. > Do you go bonkers (or spend a ton of time) learning the work arounds so that > instead of a specialist in CSS you become a specialist in the work arounds > that hopefully will be gone in a few years?!?! well, if I run into something I need help with I just turn to this list! I'll be forever grateful for some of the help I've gotten here. > I'd really like to get good with CSS, even REALLY good, I totally intrigued > by them, as much as programming. I'm not a programmer but it does feel to me sometimes like css is akin to programming. I think it helped me that I always used a text editor. > It just feels hiking in deep mud,.. WAY too much work. I need to earn a > living here. It may be a bit much work, but I can tell you want to do it! About a year and a half ago is when I became disgusted with my html and determined to learn css positioning (had used the formatting bit for quite a while). It took me most of last year to learn enough to feel fairly comfortable, but then, maybe I'm a slow learner, too. I think others, maybe with different background, can pick it up faster. Don't know if you're inclined or have the time but I did learn a lot from the css classes at International Webmasters. For me a class brought all the information together in a structured way that really helped. > I need a pep talk! I hope I was peppy enough! oh, i'm sure you probably know about the webdev toolbar, there is another extension that i wouldn't be without. The Tidy extension http://users.skynet.be/mgueury/mozilla/ it sets in the bottom of the browser window with a pretty green icon. if you make an error, turns to a yellow exclamation mark. i'm constantly checking with that as i go and it means i immediately catch things, really helps. it doesn't take the place of validation through the w3c, and that shouldn't wait until the end, but its faster and easier to use in a "continuous manner". cheers Donna > > Thanks, > JJ > __ > css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d > IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 > List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ > Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ > > -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 http://www.westendwebs.com/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
Couple of useful links: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/selector.html http://www.quirksmode.org/css/contents.html Barney Carroll wrote: > @JJ: I use pretty much the same setup. Only now I need another laptop > for IE7 :). Vim on Mac doesn't sit tight for me... I use BBEdit > (intelligent collapsing and, as far as I'm concerned, cleanest & > simplest interface around). > > Shelly's spot on. I know a lot of developers who're just baffled at the > concept of CSS (style? developers? hehehe), but if you read through > w3c's glossaries and write to standard (ie Firefox) - afterwards the > logic employed by IE is an interesting challenge :). > > Regards, > Barney > > Css Discuss wrote: >> I'm a Mac user now, was Linux full time for quite a while. I keep a >> laptop handy to check windows browsers. I use FF for everyday life and >> doing my HTML and CSS. >> It's interesting coming back to front end stuff, I wonder how many >> here use Vim as their HTML/CSS editor? I'm so hooked! >> >> I find this thread interesting, thanks for the encouragment. >> >> - JJ >> >> On 10/24/06, Shelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> *Exactly* what Rimantas said. I have found that the majority of people >>> who say "CSS is too hard" or put up arguments for not using it (like "oh >>> to make that work in that browser I'll need this work around, or it's >>> going to do this or that" LOL) are generally people who haven't really >>> given it a shot. This includes people who are new to it (which is a >>> common first reaction, but they'll learn) as well as people who tried it >>> once for a day or two and just gave up because they wanted to "get it" >>> instantly (those are the *fun* ones to discuss it with!) >>> >>> Once you get CSS - it's like riding a bike. You *get* it. And then you >>> start wanting to know and understand more. And the more you "get" the >>> better you get at it. For me, it took a couple of months before the >>> light bulb switched on over my head, and thanks to the past years of >>> learning, reading, and soaking up whatever I could wherever I could >>> (this list, too!), I usually get hired by design houses that want to go >>> tableless. Many times (especially when I see responses here from Georg >>> or francky - among others, and remember who actually runs this list) I >>> feel like I know nothing - until I speak with someone who's in the same >>> spot I was five years ago. I may not know as much as a lot of these >>> guys, but I *do* know enough that my skills are sought after enough to >>> pay for my family vacations (and electronic goodies of all sorts that >>> are around the house!) >>> >>> But *exactly* what he said - the *biggest* mistake you can make is to >>> design for IE and then fix the other browsers later. The second biggest >>> mistake is to wait until the site is completely finished before you >>> start validating your CSS and markup (you should be doing that all along >>> to save yourself a visit to the hospital from head trauma via "banging >>> your head on the desk") >>> >>> CSS is awesome. It's been so long since I've used a table that I >>> actually have to look up old tutorials now to see how they're done ;) >>> And for the record, usually when I find myself needing to use a hack, >>> it's only for IE5 on a Mac - and even then it's rare. >>> >>> ~Shelly > __ > css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d > IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 > List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ > Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
Couple of useful links: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/selector.html http://www.quirksmode.org/css/contents.html Barney Carroll wrote: > @JJ: I use pretty much the same setup. Only now I need another laptop > for IE7 :). Vim on Mac doesn't sit tight for me... I use BBEdit > (intelligent collapsing and, as far as I'm concerned, cleanest & > simplest interface around). > > Shelly's spot on. I know a lot of developers who're just baffled at the > concept of CSS (style? developers? hehehe), but if you read through > w3c's glossaries and write to standard (ie Firefox) - afterwards the > logic employed by IE is an interesting challenge :). > > Regards, > Barney > > Css Discuss wrote: >> I'm a Mac user now, was Linux full time for quite a while. I keep a >> laptop handy to check windows browsers. I use FF for everyday life and >> doing my HTML and CSS. >> It's interesting coming back to front end stuff, I wonder how many >> here use Vim as their HTML/CSS editor? I'm so hooked! >> >> I find this thread interesting, thanks for the encouragment. >> >> - JJ >> >> On 10/24/06, Shelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> *Exactly* what Rimantas said. I have found that the majority of people >>> who say "CSS is too hard" or put up arguments for not using it (like "oh >>> to make that work in that browser I'll need this work around, or it's >>> going to do this or that" LOL) are generally people who haven't really >>> given it a shot. This includes people who are new to it (which is a >>> common first reaction, but they'll learn) as well as people who tried it >>> once for a day or two and just gave up because they wanted to "get it" >>> instantly (those are the *fun* ones to discuss it with!) >>> >>> Once you get CSS - it's like riding a bike. You *get* it. And then you >>> start wanting to know and understand more. And the more you "get" the >>> better you get at it. For me, it took a couple of months before the >>> light bulb switched on over my head, and thanks to the past years of >>> learning, reading, and soaking up whatever I could wherever I could >>> (this list, too!), I usually get hired by design houses that want to go >>> tableless. Many times (especially when I see responses here from Georg >>> or francky - among others, and remember who actually runs this list) I >>> feel like I know nothing - until I speak with someone who's in the same >>> spot I was five years ago. I may not know as much as a lot of these >>> guys, but I *do* know enough that my skills are sought after enough to >>> pay for my family vacations (and electronic goodies of all sorts that >>> are around the house!) >>> >>> But *exactly* what he said - the *biggest* mistake you can make is to >>> design for IE and then fix the other browsers later. The second biggest >>> mistake is to wait until the site is completely finished before you >>> start validating your CSS and markup (you should be doing that all along >>> to save yourself a visit to the hospital from head trauma via "banging >>> your head on the desk") >>> >>> CSS is awesome. It's been so long since I've used a table that I >>> actually have to look up old tutorials now to see how they're done ;) >>> And for the record, usually when I find myself needing to use a hack, >>> it's only for IE5 on a Mac - and even then it's rare. >>> >>> ~Shelly > __ > css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d > IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 > List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ > Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/ -- Barney Carroll Text Matters Information design: we help explain things using language | design | systems | process improvement ___ phone +44 (0)118 918 2382 email [EMAIL PROTECTED] web http://www.textmatters.com __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
> Shelly's spot on. I know a lot of developers who're just baffled at the > concept of CSS (style? developers? hehehe), but if you read through > w3c's glossaries and write to standard (ie Firefox) - afterwards the > logic employed by IE is an interesting challenge :). You can start with a tested suite: http://developer.yahoo.com/yui/grids/ -- Chris Heilmann Book: http://www.beginningjavascript.com Blog: http://www.wait-till-i.com Writing: http://icant.co.uk/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
@JJ: I use pretty much the same setup. Only now I need another laptop for IE7 :). Vim on Mac doesn't sit tight for me... I use BBEdit (intelligent collapsing and, as far as I'm concerned, cleanest & simplest interface around). Shelly's spot on. I know a lot of developers who're just baffled at the concept of CSS (style? developers? hehehe), but if you read through w3c's glossaries and write to standard (ie Firefox) - afterwards the logic employed by IE is an interesting challenge :). Regards, Barney Css Discuss wrote: > I'm a Mac user now, was Linux full time for quite a while. I keep a > laptop handy to check windows browsers. I use FF for everyday life and > doing my HTML and CSS. > It's interesting coming back to front end stuff, I wonder how many > here use Vim as their HTML/CSS editor? I'm so hooked! > > I find this thread interesting, thanks for the encouragment. > > - JJ > > On 10/24/06, Shelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> *Exactly* what Rimantas said. I have found that the majority of people >> who say "CSS is too hard" or put up arguments for not using it (like "oh >> to make that work in that browser I'll need this work around, or it's >> going to do this or that" LOL) are generally people who haven't really >> given it a shot. This includes people who are new to it (which is a >> common first reaction, but they'll learn) as well as people who tried it >> once for a day or two and just gave up because they wanted to "get it" >> instantly (those are the *fun* ones to discuss it with!) >> >> Once you get CSS - it's like riding a bike. You *get* it. And then you >> start wanting to know and understand more. And the more you "get" the >> better you get at it. For me, it took a couple of months before the >> light bulb switched on over my head, and thanks to the past years of >> learning, reading, and soaking up whatever I could wherever I could >> (this list, too!), I usually get hired by design houses that want to go >> tableless. Many times (especially when I see responses here from Georg >> or francky - among others, and remember who actually runs this list) I >> feel like I know nothing - until I speak with someone who's in the same >> spot I was five years ago. I may not know as much as a lot of these >> guys, but I *do* know enough that my skills are sought after enough to >> pay for my family vacations (and electronic goodies of all sorts that >> are around the house!) >> >> But *exactly* what he said - the *biggest* mistake you can make is to >> design for IE and then fix the other browsers later. The second biggest >> mistake is to wait until the site is completely finished before you >> start validating your CSS and markup (you should be doing that all along >> to save yourself a visit to the hospital from head trauma via "banging >> your head on the desk") >> >> CSS is awesome. It's been so long since I've used a table that I >> actually have to look up old tutorials now to see how they're done ;) >> And for the record, usually when I find myself needing to use a hack, >> it's only for IE5 on a Mac - and even then it's rare. >> >> ~Shelly __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
I'm a Mac user now, was Linux full time for quite a while. I keep a laptop handy to check windows browsers. I use FF for everyday life and doing my HTML and CSS. It's interesting coming back to front end stuff, I wonder how many here use Vim as their HTML/CSS editor? I'm so hooked! I find this thread interesting, thanks for the encouragment. - JJ On 10/24/06, Shelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > *Exactly* what Rimantas said. I have found that the majority of people > who say "CSS is too hard" or put up arguments for not using it (like "oh > to make that work in that browser I'll need this work around, or it's > going to do this or that" LOL) are generally people who haven't really > given it a shot. This includes people who are new to it (which is a > common first reaction, but they'll learn) as well as people who tried it > once for a day or two and just gave up because they wanted to "get it" > instantly (those are the *fun* ones to discuss it with!) > > Once you get CSS - it's like riding a bike. You *get* it. And then you > start wanting to know and understand more. And the more you "get" the > better you get at it. For me, it took a couple of months before the > light bulb switched on over my head, and thanks to the past years of > learning, reading, and soaking up whatever I could wherever I could > (this list, too!), I usually get hired by design houses that want to go > tableless. Many times (especially when I see responses here from Georg > or francky - among others, and remember who actually runs this list) I > feel like I know nothing - until I speak with someone who's in the same > spot I was five years ago. I may not know as much as a lot of these > guys, but I *do* know enough that my skills are sought after enough to > pay for my family vacations (and electronic goodies of all sorts that > are around the house!) > > But *exactly* what he said - the *biggest* mistake you can make is to > design for IE and then fix the other browsers later. The second biggest > mistake is to wait until the site is completely finished before you > start validating your CSS and markup (you should be doing that all along > to save yourself a visit to the hospital from head trauma via "banging > your head on the desk") > > CSS is awesome. It's been so long since I've used a table that I > actually have to look up old tutorials now to see how they're done ;) > And for the record, usually when I find myself needing to use a hack, > it's only for IE5 on a Mac - and even then it's rare. > > ~Shelly > __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
<...> > What do YOU (plural) do? > > Do you say, "I'm sticking ot standards, piss on your browser if it doesn't > look good!"? > Your clients will like that. > > Do you make your pages simple so that there's flexability in the design, so > that browsers don't notice the difference? > (Think Google) > > Do you go bonkers (or spend a ton of time) learning the work arounds so that > instead of a specialist in CSS you become a specialist in the work arounds > that hopefully will be gone in a few years?!?! Hi, first things first: 1) Forget hacks. These are the last measure. You may need some workarounds, but hacks are much overrated. Andy Budd had a great presentation on the subject at @media 2006 [1]. He talked about strange attitude forming among some web developers–whenever they encounter some CSS problem they immediately start looking for the hack to solve it. That's bad. 2) Do not try to make design look the same pixel to pixel in different browsers. This is possible, but usually not worth it–regular users don't change their browser in the middle of the browsing, they just stick to their preferred one... unless your site doesn't work in it. So, "no" to pixel-to-pixel identity, "yes" to looking good and working well in major browsers. 3) Validate your (X)HTML and CSS. This will help you to catch some markup errors which may interfere with CSS renedering. 4) Use decent browser as you work: Firefox, Safari, Opera. If your design works in one, chances are high that it will work perfectly in others without any modifications. IE may require some extra effort, but this way it is easier than to build for IE first and then try to adapt for the other browsers. 5) Take your time and go through CSS specification. It is not that scary. 6) Make yourself familiar with some common IE bugs and how to deal with them. "Position is everything" [2] is a good place to start. I am sure others will give more advices. http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2006/06/media_2006_presentation/ http://positioniseverything.net/ Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
[css-d] CSS: one band-aid on top of another?
Hello, I am a PHP programmer who used to do only front end stuff in the time before managers accepted CSS as a valid way to mark up web pages. Now I'd really like to get up to speed on CSS but everytime I start to get into it, it seems like, "oh to make that work in that browser I'll need this work around, or it's going to do this or that". That sucks!!! Is there no logic here? So is sticking to the "CSS High Road" like being in Mad Max and wanting to drive a car. "Yeah there're cool but there's no gas for 100 miles and if you want parts you'll have to kill someone for them! Oh yeah and watch out for the guy on the helicopter thing with the snakes!!!" What do YOU (plural) do? Do you say, "I'm sticking ot standards, piss on your browser if it doesn't look good!"? Your clients will like that. Do you make your pages simple so that there's flexability in the design, so that browsers don't notice the difference? (Think Google) Do you go bonkers (or spend a ton of time) learning the work arounds so that instead of a specialist in CSS you become a specialist in the work arounds that hopefully will be gone in a few years?!?! I'd really like to get good with CSS, even REALLY good, I totally intrigued by them, as much as programming. It just feels hiking in deep mud,.. WAY too much work. I need to earn a living here. I need a pep talk! Thanks, JJ __ css-discuss [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d IE7 information -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=IE7 List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
