Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[John]

I'll probably be throwing them up online for testing soon, and I know  
I'll have issues/questions.


I'm going to flag your email to me so that I can alert you when  
they're up, if that works.


J



On Aug 26, 2011, at 10:40 AM, Ted Rolle Jr. wrote:


John, would you be willing to post or e-mail them for study?

Ted

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Kevin A. Cameron  
 wrote:

Nice!

And thanks Tim for the clarification, I'll definitely be  
incorporating that

syntax in future projects.

Kevin


On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 6:06 PM, John  wrote:

>
> On Aug 25, 2011, at 9:10 AM, Kevin A. Cameron wrote:
>
>  +1 for the OOCSS mentality...Start with a base class that  
defines the most
>> common use, then use additional classes in conjunction with the  
base class

>> to define the variations.
>>
>
> this is working *very* well for me, both solving problems and  
giving me

> flexibility at the same time.
>
> I re-named my styles improving their descriptiveness and with  
CamelCase,

> the whole thing much easier to read and make sense of.
>
>
> John


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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Kevin A. Cameron]

Nice!

And thanks Tim for the clarification, I'll definitely be incorporating that
syntax in future projects.

Kevin


On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 6:06 PM, John  wrote:

>
> On Aug 25, 2011, at 9:10 AM, Kevin A. Cameron wrote:
>
>  +1 for the OOCSS mentality...Start with a base class that defines the most
>> common use, then use additional classes in conjunction with the base class
>> to define the variations.
>>
>
> this is working *very* well for me, both solving problems and giving me
> flexibility at the same time.
>
> I re-named my styles improving their descriptiveness and with CamelCase,
> the whole thing much easier to read and make sense of.
>
>
> J
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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[John]

On Aug 25, 2011, at 9:10 AM, Kevin A. Cameron wrote:

+1 for the OOCSS mentality...Start with a base class that defines  
the most common use, then use additional classes in conjunction  
with the base class to define the variations.


this is working *very* well for me, both solving problems and giving  
me flexibility at the same time.


I re-named my styles improving their descriptiveness and with  
CamelCase, the whole thing much easier to read and make sense of.


J
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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Tim Climis]

On Thursday, August 25, 2011 4:40:45 pm Kevin A. Cameron wrote:
> Now I'm confused, Tim, you had used a period between the class names...? I
> wasn't really sure of that syntax and hadn't looked into it.
> 
> ".headerLink.alt2 {
>color: orange;
>font-size: 2em;
> }"
> 

The key to mine is that the HTML is different.

I used  instead of http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d
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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Tim Climis]

On Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:09:35 pm John wrote:
> On Aug 25, 2011, at 9:10 AM, Kevin A. Cameron wrote:
> > .headerLink-alt1 a:hover {
> > 
> > background-color: yellow;
> > 
> > }
> 
> Can any character be used before "alt1"  "alt2" etc?
> 
> I could be
> 
> .headerLink_alt1
> 
> right?  are there any characters it can't, or ought not be?
> 

It can't be a period.  That would indicate that "alt1" itself is the name of a 
class. (See my example, where I actually do it that way)

It also can't be any of the other reserved CSS characters (+,>,space, etc)  It 
could be .headerLink_alt1.  Or it could be .headerLinkAlt1.  It's up to you, 
really.

---Tim
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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[John]

On Aug 25, 2011, at 9:10 AM, Kevin A. Cameron wrote:



.headerLink-alt1 a:hover {
background-color: yellow;
}




Can any character be used before "alt1"  "alt2" etc?

I could be

.headerLink_alt1

right?  are there any characters it can't, or ought not be?


J

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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Mark Kelly]

Hi.

On Thursday 25 Aug 2011 at 21:47 Greg Wilker wrote:

> I've been thinking that developing with IE6 in mind is in the past - my
> experience and data shows that people using IE/Windows have left IE6.

[snip]

> Are people seeing data contraire to this?

One of the main sites I maintain is still seeing around 25% IE6, mainly from 
China. I hate it, but I can't drop it.

Note however, that this is a in a very niche market, and the plural of 
anecdote is not data :)

Cheers,

Mark
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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Kevin A. Cameron]

In an attempt to head off a flame war  I'll say it completely depends on
your audience. Many corporate internal websites depend on IE6, as well some
developing nations are using it (on older systems).

Majority of all others are using newer browsers..

Kevin


On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Greg Wilker  wrote:

> -Original Message-
> > From: Tim Climis
> > Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 1:12 PM
> > Subject: Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?
> >
> > This might be nitpicking but wouldn't it be more like this? (Or is this
> one of the cases that makes IE6 choke and die?)
>
> I've been thinking that developing with IE6 in mind is in the past - my
> experience and data shows that people using IE/Windows have left IE6.
> Windows has been diligent in including browser upgrades as part of its
> "important" software updates.
>
> Are people seeing data contraire to this?
>
> Inquiring minds,
> Greg
>
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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Greg Wilker]

-Original Message-
> From: Tim Climis
> Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 1:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?
>
> This might be nitpicking but wouldn't it be more like this? (Or is this
one of the cases that makes IE6 choke and die?)

I've been thinking that developing with IE6 in mind is in the past - my
experience and data shows that people using IE/Windows have left IE6.
Windows has been diligent in including browser upgrades as part of its
"important" software updates.

Are people seeing data contraire to this?

Inquiring minds,
Greg

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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Tim Climis]

> At least that's how I think it would apply in the context of this
> conversation.
> 

This might be nitpicking but wouldn't it be more like this? (Or is
this one of the cases that makes IE6 choke and die?)

 /* Default linked header */
.headerLink {
text-decoration: none;
font: 1.2em/1 tahoma, sans-serif;
color: red;
}
.headerLink a:hover {
text-decoration: underline;
}

/* Alternate linked header 1 */
.headerLink.alt1 {
color: blue;
}
.headerLink.alt1 a:hover {
background-color: yellow;
}
> 
/*Alternate linked header 2 */
.headerLink.alt2 {
color: orange;
font-size: 2em;
}
 
 
default header
alternate header
 1
alternate header
2

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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[John]

On Aug 25, 2011, at 9:10 AM, Kevin A. Cameron wrote:


+1 for the OOCSS mentality.

A simple example: lets say you have 3 types of linked headers.  
Start with a
base class that defines the most common use, then use additional  
classes

in conjunction with the base class to define the variations.


thanks for that, Kevin..good to know I have the right idea.

I don't know about you all, but sometimes I get bleary-eyed looking  
at code, trying to see what bit is different from another very  
similar bit. Maybe it's a skill that can be acquired through repetition.


thanks!

John
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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Kevin A. Cameron]

+1 for the OOCSS mentality.

A simple example: lets say you have 3 types of linked headers. Start with a
base class that defines the most common use, then use additional classes
in conjunction with the base class to define the variations.


/* Default linked header */
.headerLink {
text-decoration: none;
font: 1.2em/1 tahoma, sans-serif;
color: red;
}
.headerLink a:hover {
text-decoration: underline;
}

/* Alternate linked header 1 */
.headerLink-alt1 {
color: blue;
}
.headerLink-alt1 a:hover {
background-color: yellow;
}

/*Alternate linked header 2 */
.headerLink-alt2 {
color: orange;
font-size: 2em;
}


default header
alternate header
1
alternate header
2


At least that's how I think it would apply in the context of this
conversation.

Kevin


On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Ghodmode  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 5:29 AM, John  wrote:
> > As I evolve my site, I'm differentiating styles by altering the name so
> that
> > I can adjust attributes.
> >
> > example: home page head and sub-page head might be mostly the same, but
> one
> > might need different positioning or color.
> >
> > can my style sheet get too long? It only measures about 2K in size right
> > now, but what if it got to a whopping 16K?
>
> As far as I know, there's not a limitation on the size.  As Philippe
> Wittenbergh, mentioned, Internet Explorer limits the number of rules
> to 4095 and the number of stylesheets to 31 (not 32).
>
> Here are a couple of links that refer to this limitation in IE:
>  -
> http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/iewebdevelopment/thread/ad1b6e88-bbfa-4cc4-9e95-3889b82a7c1d/
>  - http://support.microsoft.com/kb/262161
>
>
> > is that a big concern, or is the human angle a bigger deal in terms of
> > keeping everything straight?
>
> It's annoying when IE imposes a limitation on us that none of the
> other browsers do, but I think that almost all sites should fit within
> the 31/4095 limit.
>
> Having said that, I have run into the stylesheet limitation on a large
> Django-based site with lots of developers working on lots of different
> parts of the site.  But the problem only happened in development
> because we minified and combined the stylesheets before pushing into
> production.  Also, there was a lot of room for optimization of all of
> the code that would have eliminated the problem entirely.
>
> Something that might help is the concept of Object-Oriented CSS which
> was presented by one of the Yahoo developers.
>
> The GitHub Wiki:
>  - https://github.com/stubbornella/oocss/wiki
>
> The presentation:
>  -
> http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/03/23/object-oriented-css-video-on-ydn/
>
> Or just the slides:
>  - http://www.slideshare.net/stubbornella/object-oriented-css
>
> > thanks!
> >
> > J
>
> --
> Ghodmode
> http://www.ghodmode.com/blog
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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Ghodmode]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 5:29 AM, John  wrote:
> As I evolve my site, I'm differentiating styles by altering the name so that
> I can adjust attributes.
>
> example: home page head and sub-page head might be mostly the same, but one
> might need different positioning or color.
>
> can my style sheet get too long? It only measures about 2K in size right
> now, but what if it got to a whopping 16K?

As far as I know, there's not a limitation on the size.  As Philippe
Wittenbergh, mentioned, Internet Explorer limits the number of rules
to 4095 and the number of stylesheets to 31 (not 32).

Here are a couple of links that refer to this limitation in IE:
 - 
http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/iewebdevelopment/thread/ad1b6e88-bbfa-4cc4-9e95-3889b82a7c1d/
 - http://support.microsoft.com/kb/262161


> is that a big concern, or is the human angle a bigger deal in terms of
> keeping everything straight?

It's annoying when IE imposes a limitation on us that none of the
other browsers do, but I think that almost all sites should fit within
the 31/4095 limit.

Having said that, I have run into the stylesheet limitation on a large
Django-based site with lots of developers working on lots of different
parts of the site.  But the problem only happened in development
because we minified and combined the stylesheets before pushing into
production.  Also, there was a lot of room for optimization of all of
the code that would have eliminated the problem entirely.

Something that might help is the concept of Object-Oriented CSS which
was presented by one of the Yahoo developers.

The GitHub Wiki:
 - https://github.com/stubbornella/oocss/wiki

The presentation:
 - 
http://www.stubbornella.org/content/2009/03/23/object-oriented-css-video-on-ydn/

Or just the slides:
 - http://www.slideshare.net/stubbornella/object-oriented-css

> thanks!
>
> J

--
Ghodmode
http://www.ghodmode.com/blog
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Re: [css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On Aug 25, 2011, at 6:29 AM, John wrote:

> can my style sheet get too long? It only measures about 2K in size right now, 
> but what if it got to a whopping 16K?

16kb is nothing… :-)
Besides, you should gzip your stylesheets on your live server to guarantee a 
faster download / transfer. And consider minifying them.

(sending a 100kb gzipped stylesheet is probably not a good idea…, having a 16kb 
stylesheet for a 2 page website would probably point to serious issues on the 
conceptual design of said site)

The bigger limits: IE up to v9 has a limit of 4095 selectors per stylesheet, 
and can only load a maximum of 32 stylesheets (other browsers don't have that 
limit).

> is that a big concern, or is the human angle a bigger deal in terms of 
> keeping everything straight?

The human angle is important, in terms of management, but has not much to do 
with the file size.

Philippe
--
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/






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[css-d] can style sheets be too long?

[John]

As I evolve my site, I'm differentiating styles by altering the name  
so that I can adjust attributes.


example: home page head and sub-page head might be mostly the same,  
but one might need different positioning or color.


can my style sheet get too long? It only measures about 2K in size  
right now, but what if it got to a whopping 16K?


is that a big concern, or is the human angle a bigger deal in terms  
of keeping everything straight?


thanks!

J
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