Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
On 22 May 2010, at 2:42, Thierry Koblentz wrote: I don't think the author tested these rules in IE lte 6, because as far as I know these rules are *ignored* by IE. Hello again all, After the great enthusiasm generated by my innocent idea of using the universal ie6 stylesheet for IE5 and IE5.5, and not for IE6 for which it is intended, I decided to do exactly what I had wanted to avoid... I set myself up a test machine with IE5 and 5.5. Yes, I did. And I can report back that the universal ie6 stylesheet IS NOT FOR IE5 AND 5.5. The resulting page (mine anyway) is worse, much worse, than no styling at all. If the user may think that something is wrong with his machine when he gets a totally unstyled page, then when he sees this one, he'll be *sure* there's something very wrong (maybe with the person responsible for the mess). He will hopefully decide to upgrade immediately (which may be a reason to use it after all), and if this is impossible, he will go back to pen and paper, abandoning the web and all its horrors. So the universal ie6 stylesheet goes to the trash. I think I'll do a custom minimal stylesheet for IE5, 5.5, and IE Mac at the very end of the development so I won't be tempted to add or remove anything just for those oldies. Topic closed... Thanks for setting me straight. Ellen __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
Am 21.05.10 16:07, schrieb Eric A. Meyer: At 3:54 PM +0200 5/21/10, Joergen W. Lang wrote: Ignore it. IE5.x/Mac is dead. So, some would say, is IE5.0/Win, and yet just last year I had a client whose user traffic was 14% IE5.0/Win. That translated to approximately one million users per month. Based on what I know of their business, I would guess that in the meantime that percentage has not much dropped, and the raw number may well have gone up. My point being that we cannot know Ellen's (or anyone's besides our own) users' needs and browsers, and rather than dismiss her attempts to serve them, it's better to help her figure out how to do so. Ellen, I second the recommendation for Phillipe's IE5/Mac page at http://l-c-n.com/IE5tests/hiding/. I've seen none better. My apologies for being too terse. Let me rephrase: If you can - ignore it. IE5.x/Mac is as dead as Grunge Rock - yet some people still listen to it. ;) I did by no means intend to discourage Ellen (or anyone) from finding a working solution to her problem. Joergen __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
On 22 May 2010, at 2:42, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
Bravo for trying to support as many browsers as possible, and for*not*
considering the universal ie6 styles sheet for IE6.
And when using it for IE5, you may want to remove/ignore some of therules
in there: the CSS expression, all the elements that you know wouldnot be
part of your documents, or rules you do not think are necessary.
For example this rule:
h1 img, h2 img, h3 img, h4 img, h5 img, h6 img { margin : 0; }
that follows this one:
img { margin : 0; }
Or rules like these:
blockquote:before, blockquote:after, q:before, q:after { content :; }
blockquote, q {quotes : ; }
abbr { border-bottom : 1px dotted #666; }
I assumed that any rules having no target in my documents would be
ignored so there was no reason not to leave them there. Am I wrong?
Actually, it is the opposite, there is no reason to leave them in.
If you know that some rules will serve no purpose, then why would you want
to keep them in?
http://carsonified.com/blog/design/setting-rather-than-resetting-default-sty
ling/
The problem is that I assumed (again) that the creators of the
universal ie6 stylesheet had also tested it for IE lt 6 and any
changes I made would NOT be tested.
I don't think the author tested these rules in IE lte 6, because as far as I
know these rules are *ignored* by IE.
Also you'd be removing declarations or rules, not adding anything, so I'd
say the testing part is irrelevant.
Thierry,
Your remarks are interesting but they leave me a bit confused. For me, there
are three possible ways of addressing IE less than 6 (for which I have no test
machine) :
- don't do anything special and don't care what the page will look like. It may
be complete chaos, unreadable, but that is not my problem;
- remove all styling and the page appears with the browser's default styles.
This was what I was planning to do before I came across the universal ie6
stylesheet;
- use a special, simplified stylesheet that will produce a better user
experience than the two previous options. I thought that the universal ie6
stylesheet could be a good answer.
Of course, I can, as you suggest, remove any rules that obviously don't apply
to my site. But the whole point of using such prepackaged stylesheets is to
minimize work. Going painstakingly through each rule to see if it applies or
not seems a waste of time, especially for a large site. It is also much easier
to update if a new version is made available. I don't use frameworks, but I'm
sure those who do end up with a whole lot of html and css that is not really
relevant to their site. Are they supposed to remove all the cruft? And do they
actually do it?
The question is, aside from the aesthetic aspect of keeping everything clean,
is there a compelling practical reason not to use the universal ie6
stylesheet for IE5 and IE5.5 as is?
As for the irrelevance of testing when you *remove* things, as opposed to
*adding* things, I don't agree. I have come across many instances of situations
where removing something has an effect on the overall result. So, if you say
that the authors of the universal ie6 stylesheet have not tested it at all in
IE5 and IE5.5 (something that I may ask them about) then I think the best
solution for me is to serve an unstyled page to these browsers.
What do you (and others) think?
Ellen
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Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
On May 22, 2010, at 10:00 PM, Ellen Herzfeld wrote:
- use a special, simplified stylesheet that will produce a better user
experience than the two previous options. I thought that the universal ie6
stylesheet could be a good answer.
Of course, I can, as you suggest, remove any rules that obviously don't apply
to my site. But the whole point of using such prepackaged stylesheets is to
minimize work. Going painstakingly through each rule to see if it applies or
not seems a waste of time, especially for a large site. It is also much
easier to update if a new version is made available. I don't use frameworks,
but I'm sure those who do end up with a whole lot of html and css that is not
really relevant to their site. Are they supposed to remove all the cruft? And
do they actually do it?
The question is, aside from the aesthetic aspect of keeping everything clean,
is there a compelling practical reason not to use the universal ie6
stylesheet for IE5 and IE5.5 as is?
I don't see any particular reason not to use it (I've never used it and won't
use it, as is). Thierry's point was that that stylesheet contains a number of
rules and declarations that IE 6 and older won't be able to use anyway. Because
those browsers don't understand them, and he gave some examples:
blockquote:before, blockquote:after, q:before, q:after { content : ; }
blockquote, q {quotes : ; }
IE6 and older don't understand :before and :after.
One can add:
blockquote, q {
quotes : ; }
same reason, the quotes property is not supported.
I see some odd things, like
code {
display : block; }
I often use code in an inline context. A preceding rule also affects the code
element .
Removing the couple of things he pointed out would make the stylesheet smaller,
saving you a bit of bandwidth (and would make that stylesheet saner, in my
book).
And he goes on suggesting to read his article
http://carsonified.com/blog/design/setting-rather-than-resetting-default-styling/
where-in he (strongly) suggest to use that kind of stylesheets as a starting
point for your own.
Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh
http://l-c-n.com/
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Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
Actually, it is the opposite, there is no reason to leave them in. If you know that some rules will serve no purpose, then why would you want to keep them in? http://carsonified.com/blog/design/setting-rather-than-resetting- default-sty ling/ The problem is that I assumed (again) that the creators of the universal ie6 stylesheet had also tested it for IE lt 6 and any changes I made would NOT be tested. I don't think the author tested these rules in IE lte 6, because as far as I know these rules are *ignored* by IE. Also you'd be removing declarations or rules, not adding anything, so I'd say the testing part is irrelevant. Thierry, Your remarks are interesting but they leave me a bit confused. For me, there are three possible ways of addressing IE less than 6 (for which I have no test machine) : Hi Ellen, As Philippe explained, the rules you'd remove are rules that serve no purpose anyway. For example, IE does not style ABBR unless you create a fictitious element via JS (something I doubt you'd bother to do for IE lt 6). And I agree with Philippe about CODE, the browser would apply that rule, but does that styling make sense to you? -- Regards, Thierry www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
On May 21, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Ellen Herzfeld wrote: For IE Mac, I don't know what to do. I would like to serve it the same simplified stylesheet but it seems conditional comments don't work for IE Mac. What would be the best alternative that will leave the smallest footprint in my html? I you absolutely feel the need to support IE5 Mac, this old page of mines has some possible solutions: http://l-c-n.com/IE5tests/hiding/ Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://l-c-n.com/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
Ignore it. IE5.x/Mac is dead. J. Am 21.05.10 13:33, schrieb Ellen Herzfeld: For IE Mac, I don't know what to do. I would like to serve it the same simplified stylesheet but it seems conditional comments don't work for IE Mac. What would be the best alternative that will leave the smallest footprint in my html? __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
At 3:54 PM +0200 5/21/10, Joergen W. Lang wrote: Ignore it. IE5.x/Mac is dead. So, some would say, is IE5.0/Win, and yet just last year I had a client whose user traffic was 14% IE5.0/Win. That translated to approximately one million users per month. Based on what I know of their business, I would guess that in the meantime that percentage has not much dropped, and the raw number may well have gone up. My point being that we cannot know Ellen's (or anyone's besides our own) users' needs and browsers, and rather than dismiss her attempts to serve them, it's better to help her figure out how to do so. Ellen, I second the recommendation for Phillipe's IE5/Mac page at http://l-c-n.com/IE5tests/hiding/. I've seen none better. -- Eric A. Meyer (http://meyerweb.com/eric/), List Chaperone CSS is much too interesting and elegant to be not taken seriously. -- Martina Kosloff (http://mako4css.com/) __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
For IE I'm using conditional comments. Actually, the design is, at this
point, quite simple and I haven't needed many lines in the IE specific
stylesheets up to now, even for IE6.
The previous version of the site was done in 2003 and 2004. I used the
usual hacks when needed and tested at the time for IEWin 5, 5.5. Now, I
don't have IE5 or 5.5 anymore and don't want to spend time doing fixes
for them. However, I checked the logs and there are still a (very) few
visitors using these browsers.
I'm thinking of using the universal ie6 stylesheet from
http://forabeautifulweb.com/blog/about/universal_internet_explorer_6_c
ss/, but only for IE5 and 5.5 for Windows. Since I can't check it out,
could somebody please confirm that this stylesheet (ie6.1.0.css) will
do the job, as it's intended for IE6.
For IE Mac, I don't know what to do. I would like to serve it the same
simplified stylesheet but it seems conditional comments don't work for
IE Mac. What would be the best alternative that will leave the smallest
footprint in my html?
Bravo for trying to support as many browsers as possible, and for *not*
considering the universal ie6 styles sheet for IE6.
And when using it for IE5, you may want to remove/ignore some of the rules
in there: the CSS expression, all the elements that you know would not be
part of your documents, or rules you do not think are necessary.
For example this rule:
h1 img, h2 img, h3 img, h4 img, h5 img, h6 img { margin : 0; }
that follows this one:
img { margin : 0; }
Or rules like these:
blockquote:before, blockquote:after, q:before, q:after { content : ; }
blockquote, q {quotes : ; }
abbr { border-bottom : 1px dotted #666; }
Or am I missing something?
--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz
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Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
On 21 May 2010, at 15:00, Philippe Wittenbergh wrote: On May 21, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Ellen Herzfeld wrote: For IE Mac, I don't know what to do. I would like to serve it the same simplified stylesheet but it seems conditional comments don't work for IE Mac. What would be the best alternative that will leave the smallest footprint in my html? I you absolutely feel the need to support IE5 Mac, this old page of mines has some possible solutions: http://l-c-n.com/IE5tests/hiding/ I still have an old Mac here with system 9 with EI5.1 and the first page I have done is really awful in it. Previously, I tweaked every rule until I was satisfied, but now, I would just like to present a page that does not look completely chaotic. As I said, I checked the recent log files of the site and I know as a fact that there are still a few visitors using IE Mac. I'm sure the very few people who are still using such an old system do so because they have no choice so I'm just trying to be polite. Anyway, I think, that your (Philippe) page has given me a step towards a solution with this: === /*\*//*/ @import ie5mac.css; /**/ === Unless I'm mistaken, this will direct IE Mac (and only IE Mac) to a specific stylesheet. However, I didn't see any way to prevent IE Mac from reading the other stylesheets that are linked in the head (I'm not using @import). I would like to avoid using IE Mac specific hacks in the normal stylesheets. But if I have to, so be it. Thanks, Ellen P.S. To see the old site: http://www.quarante-deux.org/ To see the first new page on the test server : http://ansible.xlii.org/quarante-deux/index5.html __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
On 21 May 2010, at 17:09, Thierry Koblentz wrote:
Bravo for trying to support as many browsers as possible, and for *not*
considering the universal ie6 styles sheet for IE6.
And when using it for IE5, you may want to remove/ignore some of the rules
in there: the CSS expression, all the elements that you know would not be
part of your documents, or rules you do not think are necessary.
For example this rule:
h1 img, h2 img, h3 img, h4 img, h5 img, h6 img { margin : 0; }
that follows this one:
img { margin : 0; }
Or rules like these:
blockquote:before, blockquote:after, q:before, q:after { content : ; }
blockquote, q {quotes : ; }
abbr { border-bottom : 1px dotted #666; }
I assumed that any rules having no target in my documents would be ignored so
there was no reason not to leave them there. Am I wrong?
The problem is that I assumed (again) that the creators of the universal ie6
stylesheet had also tested it for IE lt 6 and any changes I made would NOT be
tested.
Ellen
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Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
Ellen Herzfeld wrote: Ellen P.S. To see the old site: http://www.quarante-deux.org/ To see the first new page on the test server : http://ansible.xlii.org/quarante-deux/index5.html Ellen, Fwiw in your first new page the background-image is a no-show in the current versions of Camino, Opera, SeaMonkey, and Mac IE/5.2. I did not look at the page in a PC. Best, ~d -- desktop http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ mobile http://chelseacreekstudio.mobi/ __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
David Laakso wrote: Fwiw in your first new page the background-image is a no-show in the current versions of Camino, Opera, SeaMonkey, and Mac IE/5.2. I did not look at the page in a PC. If the background image is http://ansible.xlii.org/quarante-deux/img/dev/flyingbooksmall25tr.png I see it just to the left of Quarante-Deux Quelques pages sur la Science-Fiction on a PC (Win/XP PRO) in Seamonkey 2.0.4 Philip Taylor __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
David Laakso wrote:
Ellen Herzfeld wrote:
Ellen
P.S. To see the old site: http://www.quarante-deux.org/
To see the first new page on the test server :
http://ansible.xlii.org/quarante-deux/index5.html
Ellen,
Fwiw in your first new page the background-image is a no-show in the
current versions of Camino, Opera, SeaMonkey, and Mac IE/5.2. I did not
look at the page in a PC.
Best,
~d
Whoops. Sorry, about that... (smacks self).
div#page {
position: relative;
padding-top: 2em;
background-color: #FF;
background-image: -moz-linear-gradient(top, #AC6E39, #ff);
background-image: -webkit-gradient(linear, left top, left
bottom,color-stop(0, #AC6E39),color-stop(1, #ff));
}
~d
--
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http://chelseacreekstudio.com/
mobile
http://chelseacreekstudio.mobi/
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Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
On 21 May 2010, at 19:34, David Laakso wrote: Ellen, Fwiw in your first new page the background-image is a no-show in the current versions of Camino, Opera, SeaMonkey, and Mac IE/5.2. I did not look at the page in a PC. If by background-image you mean the .png to the left of the header, I'm surprised as I see it in Camino and Opera. But if you mean the colored background gradient styled with experimental -moz and -webkit stuff, I consider it eye candy and progressive enhancement. For Win IE 7 and 8, I used the proprietary filters (which seem to work) and for IE6 I just put a normal light brown non gradient background. I might do this for Camino and Opera too but I figure they'll catch up soon enough. And why not IEMac. Seamonkey I don't have. Should I? Ellen __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
Ellen Herzfeld wrote: Seamonkey I don't have. Should I? Well, I never use anything else, being a reluctant migrant from Netscape 4. It's based on the same rendering engine as Firefox (i.e., Gecko) but includes an integrated e-mail client without which I simply could not live ... Philip Taylor __ css-discuss [cs...@lists.css-discuss.org] http://www.css-discuss.org/mailman/listinfo/css-d List wiki/FAQ -- http://css-discuss.incutio.com/ List policies -- http://css-discuss.org/policies.html Supported by evolt.org -- http://www.evolt.org/help_support_evolt/
Re: [css-d] Serving universal ie6 stylesheet to IE5, IE5.5 and IE Mac
Bravo for trying to support as many browsers as possible, and for
*not*
considering the universal ie6 styles sheet for IE6.
And when using it for IE5, you may want to remove/ignore some of the
rules
in there: the CSS expression, all the elements that you know would
not be
part of your documents, or rules you do not think are necessary.
For example this rule:
h1 img, h2 img, h3 img, h4 img, h5 img, h6 img { margin : 0; }
that follows this one:
img { margin : 0; }
Or rules like these:
blockquote:before, blockquote:after, q:before, q:after { content :
; }
blockquote, q {quotes : ; }
abbr { border-bottom : 1px dotted #666; }
I assumed that any rules having no target in my documents would be
ignored so there was no reason not to leave them there. Am I wrong?
Actually, it is the opposite, there is no reason to leave them in.
If you know that some rules will serve no purpose, then why would you want
to keep them in?
http://carsonified.com/blog/design/setting-rather-than-resetting-default-sty
ling/
The problem is that I assumed (again) that the creators of the
universal ie6 stylesheet had also tested it for IE lt 6 and any
changes I made would NOT be tested.
I don't think the author tested these rules in IE lte 6, because as far as I
know these rules are *ignored* by IE.
Also you'd be removing declarations or rules, not adding anything, so I'd
say the testing part is irrelevant.
--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz
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