Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- Bill Kingsbury wrote: > > I told her that I was investigating a story from a 1909 Phoenix > newspaper article about the Smithsonian Institution's having > excavated rock-cut vaults in the Grand Canyon where Egyptian > artefacts had been discovered, and whether the Smithsonian > Institution could give me any more information on the subject. > I once met a fellow from Arizona who told me that he had studied the old testiment very deeply and had compared the geography of Arizona and surrounding territory to that described there and found that they matched better then that of the mid-East. He claimed that he used that knowledge to then locate through passages in the bible archeological evidence. His wife told me that she at first did not believe it, but became convinced too. I encouraged him to write a book, but he was reluctant to do so. best wishes, Howard Davis DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: >> Not all tribes were foragers and gatherers...many farmed...how do you >> think the Pilgrims learned to grow corn, and fertilize it with fish? > >Fairy tale Do you think Europeans didn't know how to farm until Indians taught >them? Some Europeans did...but not the Pilgrims, who had spent the previous 12 or so years living a comfortable middleclass existence in Holland...nor the Roanoke colonists, who for the most part were upper-middleclass and lower aristocratics intent on 'making a quick buck' and going back to England with a lot of money... The Pilgrims had a real problem trying to grow things in a climate they had not prepared for...remember, they HAD planned to go to Virginia, but ended up in Massachusetts due to faulty navigation... It's a MATTER OR RECORD that by their 3rd year in Massachusetts, they were starving, and it was only from the native population that they learned the techniques on WHAT to grow that would survive and thrive, and be able to be 'put up' to get them thru the winter... It is also a MATTER OF RECORD that the Indian tribes of the Northeast lived in eastablished communities devoted to farming, NOT 'foraging and gathering'... >> The tribes of the northeast lived in established communities, dependent >> on farming and fishing, with occasional hunting and occasional >> 'gathering'...just like the European settlers... > >But with a big difference... No manufacturing that amounted to much more than >handcrafts. Now you're changing your tune...your initial objection was that all Indians just got by with foraging and gathering, and didn't farm...when that fallacy was pointed out, you now decide that 'manufacturing' is to be the new standard... The Inca, Mayans, and Toltecs seem to have been able to 'manufacture' some pretty sophisticated objects... >> These same tribes had a pretty involved monetary system utilizing wampum, >> and the Iroquois Confederacy became the foundation on which our own >> Constitution was written...hardly 'nonproductive' people... > >Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy? Again, it's a MATTER OF RECORD. >> >Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited >> >by starving people... >> >> The answer is, it wasn't...the Europeans did NOT find starving Indians >> when they got here, in fact it was the European immigrants who starved, >> and the native populations had to show the Europeans how to grow food, >> what to hunt, fish, gather, etc., so that the Europeans could survive... > >I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and >fishers I never said any such thing...I said the INDIANS were farmers and fishers...the Europeans who first came here in the 1600s were for the most part pretty middleclass, more merchants than farmers... Not many Europeans, English especially, were hunters or fishers, since hunting and fishing was restricted to the aristocracy, and any lesser personage daring to do so would have been arrested as a poacher and recieved a stiff sentence. June === The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year, Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear. -- Wm. Cullen Bryant: The Death of the Flowers === *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ==
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- from: http://www.keelynet.com/unclass/canyon.txt Archeological Coverups? by David Hatcher Childress Originally placed on the KeelyNet BBS on May 8, 1993 as CANYON.ASC from NEXUS New Times - Volume 2, Number 13 Published in Australia (soon to be in the USA) The following is an intriguing article entitled "Archeological Coverups", by David Hatcher Childress in the above NEXUS magazine. Following that is a newspaper article from a 1909 newspaper indicating a bizarre suppressed find in the Grand Canyon area. It indicates either a hoax published at the time OR that the Smithsonian and/or the government is covering up details of past archeological discoveries that would rock current understanding of the past. Despite KeelyNet being primarily a science based board, this article intrigues us because of the similarity in information suppression to "protect the people"this would appear to be the reason WHY we don't have working free energy and anti-grav devices as well as absolute cures for most terminal diseases. If, after reading the article and the attached newspaper file, you decide to investigate the matter further, we here at KeelyNet would appreciate you sharing your findings with either/or Mr. Childress at the World Explorers Club or us here at KeelyNet. Thanks...>>> Jerry Archeological Coverups? by David Hatcher Childress World Explorers Club 403 Kemp Street Kempton, Illinois 60946-0074 USA Tel : (815) 253-6390 FAX : (815) 253-6300 Most of us are familiar with the last scene in the popular Indiana Jones archeological adventure film RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK in which an important historical artefact, the Ark of the Covenant from the Temple in Jerusalem, is locked in a crate and put in a giant warehouse, never to be seen again, thus ensuring that no history books will have to be rewritten and no history professor will have to revise the lecture that he has been giving for the last forty years. While the film was fiction, the scene in which an important ancient relic is buried in a warehouse is uncomfortably close to reality for many researchers. To those who investigate allegations of archaeological cover-ups, there are disturbing indications that the most important archaeological institute in the United States, the Smithsonian Institute, an independent federal agency, has been actively suppressing some of the most interesting and important archaeological discoveries made in the Americas. The Vatican has been long accused of keeping artefacts and ancient books in their vast cellars, without allowing the outside world access to them. These secret treasures, often of a controversial historical or religious nature, are allegedly suppressed by the Catholic Church because they might damage the church's credibility, or perhaps cast their official texts in doubt. Sadly, there is overwhelming evidence that something very similar is happening with the Smithsonian Institution. The cover-up and alleged suppression of archaeological evidence began in late 1881 when John Wesley Powell, the geologist famous for exploring the Grand Canyon, appointed Cyrus Thomas as the director of the Eastern Mound Division of the Smithsonian Institution's Bureau of Ethnology. When Thomas came to the Bureau of Ethnology he was a "pronounced believer in the existence of a race of Mound Builders, distinct from the American Indians." However, John Wesley Powell, the director of the Bureau of Ethnology, a very sympathetic man toward the American Indians, had lived with the peaceful Winnebago Indians of Wisconsin for many years as a youth and felt that American Indians were unfairly thought of as primitive and savage. The Smithsonian began to promote the idea that Native Americans, at that time being exterminated in the Indian Wars, were descended from advanced civilisations and were worthy of respect and protection. They also began a program of suppressing any archaeological evidence that lent credence to the school of thought known as Diffusionism, a school which believes that throughout history there has been widespread dispersion of culture and civilisation via contact by ship and major trade routes. The Smithsonian opted for
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- Thank you, H. Dee Brown's book is an outstanding work on the subject. But many of our conservative friends are leery of reading anything favorable about "minority" Americans because they're afraid that it might be an example of politically correct propaganda. Sure. During the 1970s, there was a rash of books that lauded the accomplishments/achievements of people of color. Perhaps much of the material was poorly written and excessively laudatory... But consider the fact that the historical record has been distorted for so many years. Look at Samuel Eliot Morison's racist remarks in his epic work on Columbus. I like Howard Zinn's "A People's History"...a good starting point for my libertarian and conservative friends on the list.. tough love for the right wingerswho need to take off their rosy-colored glasses when posting on "the Founding Fathers." I don't understand why reading about the history of Americans of color is "politically correct," while for years, people of color have had to read about the achievements/accomplishments of white Protestant males. A little balance is called for... We have nothing to fear but fear itself (a dead white male said that... didn't he? :) Regards, Wm On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, H. Caulfield wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > >For a real wild history of America, read the Book of Mormon.< > > A very good non-fiction book about the native American wars is "Bury My > Heart At Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown. It's a classic. > > > -- > At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!' Then > there was still nothing. But you could see it. > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld has the stronger arguments in this exchange. But in fairness to Hawk, I think he is not arguing that Native American culture was not without merit...just that European civilization brought with it certain tech advantages... OK. I'm glad that some of you on the list are taking an interest in the Native American contributions to American civilization For those of you who are interested in the evolution of the Constitution (and who believe that it was strictly a British Lockean affair), you need to look at the role the Iroquois Confederacy played in serving as a model for the Const. We know that members of the Iroquois Nation attended the Constitutional Convention (on invitation from Franklin). Also- for those of you who are interested in Elizabeth Cady Stanton and the women's rights movement--recent scholarship has revealed that the Founding Mothers of the Women's Rights Movement (Seneca Falls, NY 1848) were very much aware of the elevated position of women in the Seneca traditional culture... Native Americans were present at the 1848 convention in New York to give support to the idea of suffrage, equal rights for women, etc. The Seneca served as a model for these early feminists. Check it out if you disbelieve me. Regards, Wm On Wed, 6 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > > > -Caveat Lector- > > > > The preponderance of 'Indian mounds' throughout the eastern U.S. would > > tend to belie your contention that the Native Americans were incapable of > > producing anything... > > I never contended such a thing > > > Not all tribes were foragers and gatherers...many farmed...how do you > > think the Pilgrims learned to grow corn, and fertilize it with fish? > > Fairy tale Do you think Europeans didn't know how to farm until Indians taught > them? > > > The tribes of the northeast lived in established communities, dependent > > on farming and fishing, with occasional hunting and occasional > > 'gathering'...just like the European settlers... > > But with a big difference... No manufacturing that amounted to much more than > handcrafts. > > > These same tribes had a pretty involved monetary system utilizing wampum, > > and the Iroquois Confederacy became the foundation on which our own > > Constitution was written...hardly 'nonproductive' people... > > Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy? Give me a > break! > > > >Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited > > >by starving people... > > > > The answer is, it wasn't...the Europeans did NOT find starving Indians > > when they got here, in fact it was the European immigrants who starved, > > and the native populations had to show the Europeans how to grow food, > > what to hunt, fish, gather, etc., so that the Europeans could survive... > > I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and > fishers Did they forget how to do these things after the arrived over here? > > Hawk > > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER > == > CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic > screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters > and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright > frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects > spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL > gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; > be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and > nazi's need not apply. > > Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. > > Archives Available at: > http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html > > http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > > To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: > SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Om > DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- >For a real wild history of America, read the Book of Mormon.< A very good non-fiction book about the native American wars is "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown. It's a classic. -- At first there was nothing. Then God said 'Let there be light!' Then there was still nothing. But you could see it. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- YnrChyldzWyld wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > The preponderance of 'Indian mounds' throughout the eastern U.S. would > tend to belie your contention that the Native Americans were incapable of > producing anything... I never contended such a thing > Not all tribes were foragers and gatherers...many farmed...how do you > think the Pilgrims learned to grow corn, and fertilize it with fish? Fairy tale Do you think Europeans didn't know how to farm until Indians taught them? > The tribes of the northeast lived in established communities, dependent > on farming and fishing, with occasional hunting and occasional > 'gathering'...just like the European settlers... But with a big difference... No manufacturing that amounted to much more than handcrafts. > These same tribes had a pretty involved monetary system utilizing wampum, > and the Iroquois Confederacy became the foundation on which our own > Constitution was written...hardly 'nonproductive' people... Oh, so our concept of govm't was derived from the Iroquois Confederacy? Give me a break! > >Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited > >by starving people... > > The answer is, it wasn't...the Europeans did NOT find starving Indians > when they got here, in fact it was the European immigrants who starved, > and the native populations had to show the Europeans how to grow food, > what to hunt, fish, gather, etc., so that the Europeans could survive... I thought you just said that the Europeans who came here had been farmers and fishers Did they forget how to do these things after the arrived over here? Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- For a real wild history of America, read the Book of Mormon. No, I'm not a Mormon. Also, I came up with something awhile back, while digging through 1925 issues of the New York Times. I'll see if I can find it. Also, David Hatcher Childress (I think that's his name) of Adventures Unlimited press has written several books where he explores "hidden history" of Americas using archaeology. Brian Redman | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.shout.net/~bigred/cn.html Editor-in-Chief| ---Phone: 217-356-4418 Conspiracy Nation | "The perfect slave thinks he's free." DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, Hawk wrote: >In my opinion, Your OPINION matters not a whit...what matters are FACTS...got any? >I think it was due to OVER-POPULATION. What you THINK matters not a whit...where are your FACTS? >"under-productivity per person." The Indians simply were not producers... They >were foragers and gatherers, spending most of their energy getting something to >eat and providing shelter for themselves. The preponderance of 'Indian mounds' throughout the eastern U.S. would tend to belie your contention that the Native Americans were incapable of producing anything... Not all tribes were foragers and gatherers...many farmed...how do you think the Pilgrims learned to grow corn, and fertilize it with fish? The tribes of the northeast lived in established communities, dependent on farming and fishing, with occasional hunting and occasional 'gathering'...just like the European settlers... These same tribes had a pretty involved monetary system utilizing wampum, and the Iroquois Confederacy became the foundation on which our own Constitution was written...hardly 'nonproductive' people... >Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited >by starving people... The answer is, it wasn't...the Europeans did NOT find starving Indians when they got here, in fact it was the European immigrants who starved, and the native populations had to show the Europeans how to grow food, what to hunt, fish, gather, etc., so that the Europeans could survive... June === The melancholy days are come, the saddest of the year, Of wailing winds and naked woods, and meadows brown and sear. -- Wm. Cullen Bryant: The Death of the Flowers === *---* revcoal AT connix DOT com *---* It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227. I assess a fee of $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial email. Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these terms. My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial email. ** DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > [snip] Until recently, the most knowledgable students estimated that there were > somewhere between 15 and 20 million Indians in the hemisphere when Columbus > arrived, agreeing also that probably only some 850,000 lived within the present > boundaries of the contiguous states of the United States, [snip] > > Suffice it to say that North America held far fewer Indians at Columbus' > entrance than people now believe and Josephy is a very fine reference, although > he is a generalist, not a high brow scholar. Few ever quibble with his general > materials, they are well researched. Think about this for a few minutes before going off the handle... In my opinion, the land mass that is now the contiguous United States had fewer than 1,000,000 inhabitants in the late 1400's and early 1500's. The indiginous people had been here for a long time... Ever wonder why there were so few? I think it was due to OVER-POPULATION. You see, what we call "over-population" is not a factor of "number of people per square mile," but is really a factor of "under-productivity per person." The Indians simply were not producers... They were foragers and gatherers, spending most of their energy getting something to eat and providing shelter for themselves. Thus, they were plagued with the same kind of problems we think of when considering so-called "overpopulated" countries. I is usually shocking when people first learn which countries are the most populated in terms of "people per square mile." When asked, most people respond, "China" or "India" or some other such place where masses of people are barely "getting by." In fact, the most populous country in terms of people per square mile is England. Next in line for numbers two and three are Scandinavian countries. Singapore is not even in the first three. Hong Kong is very crowded, also... But these countries all have a VERY HIGH standard of living... Hong Kong and Singapore do not even have any "natural resources" to speak of... Africa has vast regions where people per square mile is a meaningless idea (divide zero by any number and round off to the next highest number, and its still zero). The reason is that productivity per person is high in the most crowded nations. And Africa, though sparsely populated, much as was North America, is populated as such by very poor people barely scraping by. Why, then, was North America, with is vast potential wealth, inhabited by starving people... as is Africa today? I believe it is because of what I called a "tribal mentality" which is a form of socialism to the extreme. It is a socio-economic system that stymies individual responsibility and productivity.. When the northern Europeans came over here, many of them came precisely for "freedom" to run their own affairs, which is the economic system known as capitalism... and "capitalism" is the engine, the driving force, of productivity and wealth ... It is the force that is responsible for creating and sustaining the most wealthy nation of people the world has ever known... It is not responsible for the fact that not *everyone* is wealthy... because there can be no such convergence as "Freedom" AND "Equality." Hawk DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] About historic American Indian population figures --
-Caveat Lector- Kris: About historic American Indian population figures -- Not exactly that many. Here is a quote from Alvin Josephy -- while a dated Indian historian, his basic material even in 1995 was still considered the most reliable to date on general facts like this. Bracketed quotes are mine here, but Josephy says (1991, *The Indian Heritage of America,* Houghton Mifflin Co.): p. 52-53 "Although many persons have tried to estimate how many Indians inhabited the New World [this includes the entire Western Hemisphere -- north, central and south] by 1492, there is no agreement on the figure. In the past some have believed that there were as many as 75 million, others cite a maximum of only 8 million. Until recently, the most knowledgable students estimated that there were somewhere between 15 and 20 million Indians in the hemisphere when Columbus arrived, agreeing also that probably only some 850,000 lived within the present boundaries of the contiguous states of the United States, and considerably fewer father north in Canada and Alaska. The bulk of the population was found below the Rio Grande, concentrated most heavily in the regions of the most intensive practice of agriculture; and it was thought that perhaps 7 million or more people were in Mexico, Central America, and the Caribbean prior to the white man's arrival, and at least 10 million throughout South America, more than half of them in the Andean highlands [Bolivia, Equador, Peru]. " My thoughts: Population figures are always interesting and always important. In fact there are entire books devoted now to analysis of American Indian pop figures. I don't have the latest one at hand. However, Josephy is still very well touted. Suffice it to say that North America held far fewer Indians at Columbus' entrance than people now believe and Josephy is a very fine reference, although he is a generalist, not a high brow scholar. Few ever quibble with his general materials, they are well researched. Judith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Judith, a lister came-up with this statement. > > My understanding is that during the period before colonization > >native-americans numbered less then five million in the are we now call > >the United States. > > What can you tell me? > > Om > K - Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
