Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- At 08:16 PM 12/6/98 -0500, M. A. Johnson wrote: >Several major turning points mark the reversal of this [Constitutional >enumerated powers] ethic. The first was the passage in 1913 of the >Sixteenth Amendment, which permitted a federal income tax. This was >the first major tax that was not levied on a proportional or uniform >basis. Hence, it allowed Congress a political free ride: It could >provide government benefits to many by imposing a disproportionately >heavy tax burden on the wealthy. ... > -- Stephen Moore, _Between Power and Liberty_ But that's not the way it works. If you look at the ratio between people's disposable income (what's left after paying for necessities like food, clothing, and shelter) and the income tax they pay, the wealthy have a far lower RELATIVE tax burden. Besides, most of the non-working rich use tax shelters to almost totally avoid paying income tax. >There is NOTHING in the nature of a free-market economy to cause >such an event. The popular explanations of depression as caused >by 'over-production', 'under-consumption', monopolies, labor-saving >devices, maldistribution, excessive accumulations of wealth, etc., >have been exploded as fallacies many times. (refer to _Capitalism >the Creator_ by Carl Snyder, The Macmillan Company 1940) Since this was written after 1929, it's hard to believe that this guy didn't know what an Asset Price Bubble is. To understand capitalism, you have to understand mob behavior. Assets such as stocks, property, and beanie babies are priced based on what other investors are willing to pay. The problem is, investors act like a herd of cows. Where one goes, the rest follow. When asset values start to move up, investors begin paying more and more for assets, reinforcing each others' increasingly irrational exuberance. Eventually though, one of the herd is spooked by the total disconnection between asset prices and real worth, and the rest stampede, causing asset prices to plummet. This tends to have numerous collateral effects which if extreme enough can cause a depression. Some of these effects include lack of consumer spending due to loss of consumer confidence, constraint on business growth due to lack of investment capital and lack of demand, and bank failures due to failure of loans based on unrealistically valued asset prices. This has been seen time and time again, most recently in numerous countries in Asia. Government regulation attempts to put limits on the collateral damage that can occur, for instance by keeping banks out of investment banking and limiting how they value collateral. Increasingly there is a call to limit asset price inflation along with the already regulated wage and consumer goods price inflations. This is because economists are beginning to wake up to the hazards caused by Asset Price Bubbles, especially as electronic trading and lack of capital flow controls cause money to move in and out of markets at incomprehensible rates. Even Adam Smith understood the need for "the invisible hand of government" in controlling capitalism. If you look at the economic history of the US, you'll see that in the 19th century the booms and busts tended to be equal in length. Since the "Great Depression", booms have gotten longer and busts shorter, as government regulation has become increasingly sophisticated in preventing the economy from overheating in booms and crashing in busts. You don't have to take my word for it, just read the article by George Soros posted to this list a few days ago. I think his billions suggest some understanding of capitalism (FWIW, he seems to be a wolf compared to other investors). I also recommend reading The Economist magazine. As Noam Chomsky likes to point out, business magazines tend to give a slightly less filtered version of the news, as sophisticated investors demand to know what's really going on in the world. You still have to read between the lines, but the gaps aren't quite as large. Che DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism]
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > On 5 Dec 98 , M. wrote: > > > Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system which > > exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a small minority > > of wealthy capitalists. Ironically, it is actually socialism that > > causes the systematic exploitation of labor. Since the socialist > > state holds a universal monopoly on labor and production, no > > economic incentive exists for the socialist state to provide anything > > more than minimum physical subsistence for the workers except to > > perhaps prevent riots or revolutions. Exploitation is inherent to > > the nature of socialism because individuals cannot exist for their > > own sake, rather, they exist merely as means to whatever ends the > > socialist rulers -- the self-proclaimed spokesman of "society," may > > have in mind. > > > Which goes a long way to explain why millions of ordinary citizens > are now prospering under Russia's new capitalist regine. Not to > mention all the various regions of the Asian world.and South > America, too. > IMHO, if you want to see the *true* face of capitalism, look at Russia. What has emerged since the collapse of the Soviet Union is the only true free market in the world...and if Russian society now seems to be dominated by out-and-out criminals, it's hardly a coincidence. The market *cannot* be trusted to provide the goods and services ordinary people need beyond the neighborhood level, precisely because its "greatest good" is not service but profit maximization. This is why I am not a libertarian... Bob = Robert F. Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove "nospam" from the address to reply. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS. RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP. More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am sorry I did not make my self clear. I was not looking for your definition of 'Pure Capitalism.'What I wanted to know was if you so strongly support a complete "Laissez faire capitalism" how would that be different from what happened before in what I consider a very barbaric time in our country. MJ: I am a fan/advocate/believer in freedom and liberty ... with a zest for EQUALITY before a standard: an individual's RIGHT to his own life as philosophically identified within the DoI and later codified in the US Constitution. I have already POINTED to two areas in the era you identify above as being mythology, but you expressed your disinterest and boasted of your 'omnipotence'. Regard$, --MJ Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. -- Noah Webster DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- I am sorry I did not make my self clear. I was not looking for your definition of 'Pure Capitalism.'What I wanted to know was if you so strongly support a complete "Laissez faire capitalism" how would that be different from what happened before in what I consider a very barbaric time in our country. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- Any economist will tell you in order for capitalism to thrive you must have a constant expanding. Well, we live in a finite word so depressions are built in. As for the myth of so-called 'Robber Barons' I live in Pittsburgh Pa. and I have learned enough of my regions history of Robber Barons, Pinkerton Goons, Company Stores, Strip Mining, spoiled environment and then corporate flight I don't need to read any more about them. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please enlighten me as to what is "pure capitalism" . MJ: That was *YOUR* phrase. As to Capitalism, that was defined at the beginning of this thread which was in response to another incorrectly labelling 'apples' as 'oranges' and BLAMING capitalism when such did not exist. Regard$, --MJ Everyone is in business for himself, for he is selling his services, labor or ideas. Until one realizes that this is true he will not take conscious charge of his life and will always be looking outside himself for guidance. -- Sidney Madwed DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- Please enlighten me as to what is "pure capitalism" . DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We tried "pure capitalism" once it was called the 1900s and the industrial revolution. Every one seems to forget about how nice it was. Try reading about how great it worked how every time a robber baron made more money his workers got nothing.Not to mention the depressions that are inherent to "pure capitalism". MJ: America was never 'purely capitalist'. The 'ignorance' (no disrespect intended) of your statement above sheds light on how well a government in need of power has succeeded in spreading their mythology -- Big Bad Freedom needing a Politician to ensure his whimsical policies provide the illusion of benefit. For so-called 'Robber Barons' ... begin with Folsom's _MYTH of the Robber Baron_. For so-called 'inherent depressions' ... A depression is a large-scale decline in production and trade; it is characterized by a sharp drop in productive output, in investment, in employment and in the value of capital assets (plants, machinery, etc.) Normal business fluctuations, or a temporary decline in the rate of industrial expansion, do not constitute a depression. A depression is a nation-wide contraction of business activity -- and a general decline in the value of capital assets -- of major proportions. There is NOTHING in the nature of a free-market economy to cause such an event. The popular explanations of depression as caused by 'over-production', 'under-consumption', monopolies, labor-saving devices, maldistribution, excessive accumulations of wealth, etc., have been exploded as fallacies many times. (refer to _Capitalism the Creator_ by Carl Snyder, The Macmillan Company 1940) Regard$, --MJ The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -- Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787 DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- We tried "pure capitalism" once it was called the 1900s and the industrial revolution. Every one seems to forget about how nice it was. Try reading about how great it worked how every time a robber baron made more money his workers got nothing.Not to mention the depressions that are inherent to "pure capitalism". DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- MJ wrote: A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and there is no more effective way to limit thought than to control the language itself. By changing definitions of words through continual association, any serious discussion involving the concepts that the words represents becomes hopelessly muddled. The words 'democracy', 'hate' and 'racism' immediately comes to mind. -- Thomas Sowell >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This, I believe to be true, but I also think that Facism, hate and racism also go together. MJ: Hmmm ... fascism (fàsh´îz´em) noun A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. racism (râ´sîz´em) noun The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. hate (hât) verb To feel hostility or animosity toward, To detest. MJ: <> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our country would be better off if we had a capatalist system such as this, but as you stated before... words change through constant association. Capitalism now is the subjugation of the poor by the rich in reality, mostly through the granting of charters to corporations. Corporations are not formed for the public good as they were supposed to be, but are formed to make the rich even richer through manipulating government laws. MJ: My POINT was that what *you* identify (but more pertinent -- what the 'indictor' of Capitalism was positing) is NOT capitalism, but something else. America -- though not explicitly stated -- is idealically to be as identified above, but the Government has usurped additional powers not so granted AND utilized its ability for the 'legalized' use of FORCE to wield havoc. MJ: The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the individual's pursuit of his own economic self-interest simultaneously benefits the economic self-interests of all others. In allowing each individual to act unhampered by government regulations, capitalism causes wealth to be created in the most efficient manner possible which ultimately raises the standard of living, increases the economic opportunities, and makes available an ever growing supply of products for everyone. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From what I have seen in my lifetime, capitalism mostly raises the standard of living for those who already have a high standard of living, and there is very little "trickle down" to the common person who does the labor in the rich man's factory. An "ever growing" supply of products does no good for someone who cannot afford to buy them. If the business owners did share the wealth with the workers, that would be equitable, but I think, unrealistic by what I've seen so far. MJ: America has NOT a capitalist economy, but a mixed economy. As to your concerns ... look at the 'imaginary' poverty figures and notice how many 'poor' persons have automobiles, air conditiong, televisions, etc. :) MJ: The free-market operates in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone, which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you explain in more detail how a man who creates more wealth for himself will simultaneously create more wealth for everyone? (Not trying to be sarcastic, just interested in your theory) MJ: Look at Bill Gates. How many persons did/does *he* employ in his 'quest'? How many have become 'millionaires'? How many people now have home computers? ... for instance. Look at Rockefeller who CONTRARY to myth, made great strides in oil refining, lowered oil prices, created a 'boom' in competititon AND accomplished similar results to that of Gates. MJ: Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system which exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a small minority of wealthy capitalists. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Unfortunately that is just what this system is doing right now. I see that it is also not a pure capitalist system, an element of socialism is there... in a big way. MJ: I would argue that our current system is MORE statist than free. MJ: Ironically, it is actually socialism that causes the systematic exploitation of labor. Since the socialist state holds a universal monopoly on labor and production, no economic incentive exists for the socialist state to provide anything more t
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- MJ wrote: << A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and there is no more effective way to limit thought than to control the language itself. By changing definitions of words through continual association, any serious discussion involving the concepts that the words represents becomes hopelessly muddled. The words 'democracy', 'hate' and 'racism' immediately comes to mind. -- Thomas Sowell >> This, I believe to be true, but I also think that Facism, hate and racism also go together. <> Our country would be better off if we had a capatalist system such as this, but as you stated before... words change through constant association. Capitalism now is the subjugation of the poor by the rich in reality, mostly through the granting of charters to corporations. Corporations are not formed for the public good as they were supposed to be, but are formed to make the rich even richer through manipulating government laws. <> >From what I have seen in my lifetime, capitalism mostly raises the standard of living for those who already have a high standard of living, and there is very little "trickle down" to the common person who does the labor in the rich man's factory. An "ever growing" supply of products does no good for someone who cannot afford to buy them. If the business owners did share the wealth with the workers, that would be equitable, but I think, unrealistic by what I've seen so far. << The free-market operates in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone, which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists.>> Could you explain in more detail how a man who creates more wealth for himself will simultaneously create more wealth for everyone? (Not trying to be sarcastic, just interested in your theory) << Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system which exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a small minority of wealthy capitalists.>> Unfortunately that is just what this system is doing right now. I see that it is also not a pure capitalist system, an element of socialism is there... in a big way. << Ironically, it is actually socialism that causes the systematic exploitation of labor. Since the socialist state holds a universal monopoly on labor and production, no economic incentive exists for the socialist state to provide anything more than minimum physical subsistence for the workers except to perhaps prevent riots or revolutions.>> This may depend on the leaders of such a system. If they/he/she want to be popular and stay in office (provided it is an elected office) it would be in their/her/his best interest to increase production, make the business more productive, pay more wages to the workers. Actually I can see no reason why the leader would not want everyone to be well off finacially, nothing to lose and everything to gain. <> This could very well be the case if the rulers were not elected. <> Government and capitalism do not mix as we now have a system of just that with the corporations controlling most of the populace and the government. As I said before there is an element of socialism in our society also, and it becomes very muddled as to which is gaining ground/which is losing ground. <> The way I see it is that the "free market" that Clinton and his followers are trying to lead us to, is not, in fact, a free market at all. It seems to me to be a Fascist movement where the corporations, which are privately owned will have access to very cheap labor resulting in the corporations making more money, and not sharing their good fortune with the workers. I can also see that it is a socialistic movement in that, it works to bring down our economy to that of a third world nation, making a large rift between the rich and the poor... A purely socialistic form of government is not supposed to do this, but we see that the communist/socialist regimes of eastern Europe have actually widened the gap between rich and poor to the point where the poor are nearly starving and the rich have an abundance of everything, including power. These are both Statist forms of government which, I believe the founders of this Republic were trying to avoid. I sincerely believe that our Constitution was made so that we could be free to do what we want as long as it doesn't infringe upon the rights of others. Lawyers, judges, legislatures, presidents, etc all lawyers have perverted the Constitution and the plainly written words of it. Your redefining capitalism idea is a good idea, maybe the original idea, but how many laws would it take to keep it like that, and how could it be perverted into becoming the system we have today? Regards, Bob Stokes DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL
Re: [CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- On 5 Dec 98 , M. wrote: > Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system which > exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a small minority > of wealthy capitalists. Ironically, it is actually socialism that > causes the systematic exploitation of labor. Since the socialist > state holds a universal monopoly on labor and production, no > economic incentive exists for the socialist state to provide anything > more than minimum physical subsistence for the workers except to > perhaps prevent riots or revolutions. Exploitation is inherent to > the nature of socialism because individuals cannot exist for their > own sake, rather, they exist merely as means to whatever ends the > socialist rulers -- the self-proclaimed spokesman of "society," may > have in mind. Which goes a long way to explain why millions of ordinary citizens are now prospering under Russia's new capitalist regine. Not to mention all the various regions of the Asian world.and South America, too. sno0wl DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Apples and Oranges: REDEFINING Capitalism
-Caveat Lector- A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and there is no more effective way to limit thought than to control the language itself. By changing definitions of words through continual association, any serious discussion involving the concepts that the words represents becomes hopelessly muddled. The words 'democracy', 'hate' and 'racism' immediately comes to mind. -- Thomas Sowell Laissez faire capitalism means the complete separation of economy and state, just like the separation of church and state. Capitalism is the social system based upon private ownership of the means of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all land is privately owned. But the separation of the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights. Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the doctrine of individual rights. This means that capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the rights of others. The essential nature of capitalism is social harmony through the pursuit of self-interest. Under capitalism, the individual's pursuit of his own economic self-interest simultaneously benefits the economic self-interests of all others. In allowing each individual to act unhampered by government regulations, capitalism causes wealth to be created in the most efficient manner possible which ultimately raises the standard of living, increases the economic opportunities, and makes available an ever growing supply of products for everyone. The free-market operates in such a way so that as one man creates more wealth for himself, he simultaneously creates more wealth for everyone, which means that as the rich become richer, the poor become richer too. It must be understood that capitalism serves the economic self-interests of all, including the non-capitalists. Contrary to widely held beliefs, capitalism is not a system which exploits a large portion of society for the sake of a small minority of wealthy capitalists. Ironically, it is actually socialism that causes the systematic exploitation of labor. Since the socialist state holds a universal monopoly on labor and production, no economic incentive exists for the socialist state to provide anything more than minimum physical subsistence for the workers except to perhaps prevent riots or revolutions. Exploitation is inherent to the nature of socialism because individuals cannot exist for their own sake, rather, they exist merely as means to whatever ends the socialist rulers -- the self-proclaimed spokesman of "society," may have in mind. Regard$, --MJ Capitalism undoubtedly has certain boils and blotches upon it, but has it as many as government? Has it as many as marriage? Has it as many as religion? I doubt it. It is the only basic institution of modern man that shows any genuine health and vigor. -- H. L. Menken Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -- Milton Friedman DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
