Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Barb Witt wrote: Two pertinent articles (The Global Hand and Technology Hoax), from the April 21, 1997 edition of Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908085a.htm Barb Yeah right Barb. Forbes Magazine. The " Capitaist tool." That's a good source for pointing out the disasters of the global econmy. Who do you cite to advance the glory of the Catolic church? Martin Luther? Joshua2 It's my practice not to discuss religion with fundamentalists, nor do I discuss economics with the "true believers" in socialism/communism. If you are referring to me then let me set you straight. I am not a religious anything. I'm a devout atheist. Secondly, I am neither a socialist nor a communist. As with everything on this list, you can choose to read the articles or not. However, if you're going to critique something, it is commonly expected that you at least peruse the material and then mention specifics. I have read the piece. It's a bunch of stupid selective propaganda which tries to apologize for the destructiveness of capitalist " free trade." That's because the readers of Forbes are the very people who benefit most from " free trade." Duh! When free trade was a weapon to break the monopoly of the aristocracy, it was a good thing. Now it is the weapon of the rich to monopolize the world economy. Now it is a bad thing. If this is too complicated for you I could make a stick drawing. The irony of someone like yourself commenting regarding a lack of objectivity is too funny for words. I'm not interested in being objective. Neither is Forbes. You do understand that don't you? And use your damn spell checker. Barb Fokk yeu! J2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
At 07:56 PM 1/18/99 -0600, you wrote: -Caveat Lector- Barb Witt wrote: Two pertinent articles (The Global Hand and Technology Hoax), from the April 21, 1997 edition of Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908085a.htm Barb Yeah right Barb. Forbes Magazine. The Capitaist tool. That's a good source for pointing out the disasters of the global econmy. Joshua2 However, if you're going to critique something, it is commonly expected that you at least peruse the material and then mention specifics Barb === This is from the posted site: Capital emigrated, too. British money, instead of staying at home, built railroads in the U.S. and Argentina, tea gardens in India, and literally created Hong Kong and Calcutta. In a single year, 1871, London absorbed over $100 million of American securities; by 1893 foreigners had sent $3 billion to the U.S. National boundaries did not disappear; bloody wars were yet to be fought over them. But for the first time in history people, money and goods were able to flow across them quite freely. It was as if a giant global handkind of like Adam Smith's invisible hand gone internationalrearranged the world economy. As Jeffrey Williamson, an economics professor at Harvard, says of this period, 1860-1913: Capital and labor flowed across national boundaries in unprecedented quantity, and commodity trade boomed. The results, in terms of global well-being, were fabulous. Railroad and steamship technology had made transportation much cheaper == My question is where did the foreign capital come from? Who were the investors who bought the railroad stocks and bonds in America? What were their expectations concerning interest and dividends? What happened when the bonds defaulted? I submit much of the capital came from illegal trade--piracy, vice, slavery and opium. That's who founded Forbes. The Forbes, Perkins and Russell families founded Skull and Bones at Yale primarily, IMHO, to keep their trade secrets and to recruit people to carry on the operations throughout the world who would take an oath of secrecy. That's why I tend to discount much of what Forbes magazine publishes. Linda Linda, you give your reasons for questioning the character of Forbes, Perkins and Russell families (ironic, aren't you the Clinton supporter), but I question the relevancy. I wonder: (1) How is the historical origin of Forbes money relevant to whether or not the assertions of the authors of the subject articles is true?; (2) Do you disagree with the premises stated by the authors?; (3) If so, which ones, and why?; (4) What is inherently evil about *trade secrets*?; (5) What person who took an oath of secrecy spilled the beans to you? Barb
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Barb Witt wrote: Linda, you give your reasons for questioning the character of Forbes, Perkins and Russell families (ironic, aren't you the Clinton supporter), but I question the relevancy. I wonder: (1) How is the historical origin of Forbes money relevant to whether or not the assertions of the authors of the subject articles is true?; (2) Do you disagree with the premises stated by the authors?; (3) If so, which ones, and why?; (4) What is inherently evil about *trade secrets*?; (5) What person who took an oath of secrecy spilled the beans to you? ++ Barb, (1) The owners of a magazine will not allow ideas to be expressed in their magazine if those ideas will undercut their own livelihood. I believe that the drug trade is not only the "historical origin" of these families, but that it persists to this day. That is the main focus of some of us who have been on this list for the longest time. And we don't talk idly; we actually research our theories because we want to know the truth. I do support Clinton most of the time. I've been a Democrat all my life, and I believe in equal opportunity. I am against a society based on exclusion and perpetuation and preservation of elites. I am a suspicious person--one who spends every waking hour of every day trying to figure out what is really going on--reading between the lines. Through reading and researching, I have begun to question, not only who is behind the Clinton attacks, but who set Nixon up. If you've read SILENT COUP, by Colodny, you know there is evidence to indicate That the burglary was botched in an attempt to bring Nixon down. And there is a question about the Hinckley attempt to kill Reagan shortly after he took office, as well as the suspicious circumstances surrounding the downed plane Hausenflus was on that led to the discovery of Iran-Contra. I am tired of someone trying to remove our elected presidents of whatever party by covert operations. I can't say that Forbes is behind these attempted coups, but I have found that the persons involved in that magazine have been associated with activities which I find to be highly questionable up to the present day. I have separate research available which I have posted previously, which I could dig up if requested. (2) I'm not sure what the authors' premises were. I had the impression that they were glorifying the role of foreign capital in this country, in addition to capital investment that historically in this country came from primarily New York and Boston. If you read about the investment in railroads in the early 19th century, what you find is that a great many of the bonds were marketed in Europe by various investment bankers. Yet some of the railroads were also financed by Bostonians. How did they make the money to invest in these projects? Once they made the investments, how were the investments protected? Have you read BITTER FRUIT, by Stephen Schlesinger and Stephen Kinzer? (4) Are trade secrets inherently evil? Secrecy is inherently evil. I believe in openness. I believe every qualified person should have the same opportunity to participate in trade. I do not believe that people who earn their money through slavery and drug trafficking should be able to wash their profits through legitimate business by using the guise of "venture capital" investments and thereby gain control of strategic industrial development. That's what I believe has been done. The proof is hard to come by because the evil is hidden. But I'll spend the rest of my life trying to uncover the truth. (5) Nobody spilled the beans to me, personally. People who talk don't live long it seems. Linda DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Barb Witt wrote: -Caveat Lector- At 09:34 PM 1/16/99 -0800, you wrote: -Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would estimate that of over 50% of all consumer manufactured goods are coming from Communist China. Why? Well, because the capitalist built their latest and best manufacturing plants there? Why? Cheap Labour. Huge Market. MJ: How long has labor been cheap abroad? Why is it only in recent years we have had a (purported) mass exodus? Could it be the regulatory load which has escalated over the past recent years? Regard$, --MJ What do you mean " purported?" Where is America's manufacturing base? Did it disappear down a rabbit hole? There's nothing purported about American corporations leaving in droves. This is bullshit on your part and you know it. You take a foolish position, you have to defend it by flinging bovine droppings and red herrings. American companies had been buying their way out of regulations more and more in the years before leaving these shores for foreign labor. As a matter of fact, they got tax breaks for doing it. This could only happen because they got more complete control of Congress. American corporations are owned by the Rich and their managerial sub- class. These two groups have a long history of theft, violence, crime, and treason against the citizens, workers, and country of the USA. Only a twisted Libertarian would blame regulations as the reason for industrial flight. Everyone with any sense at all knows it's for profit. Workers and nation be damned. Joshua2 Two pertinent articles (The Global Hand and Technology Hoax), from the April 21, 1997 edition of Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908085a.htm Barb Yeah right Barb. Forbes Magazine. The " Capitaist tool." That's a good source for pointing out the disasters of the global econmy. Who do you cite to advance the glory of the Catolic church? Martin Luther? Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/18/99 10:39:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: . Everyone with any sense at all knows it's for profit. Workers and nation be damned. Joshua2 You're absolutely right, Joshua2 Prudy DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Barb Witt wrote: Two pertinent articles (The Global Hand and Technology Hoax), from the April 21, 1997 edition of Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908085a.htm Barb Yeah right Barb. Forbes Magazine. The " Capitaist tool." That's a good source for pointing out the disasters of the global econmy. Joshua2 However, if you're going to critique something, it is commonly expected that you at least peruse the material and then mention specifics Barb === This is from the posted site: "Capital emigrated, too. British money, instead of staying at home, built railroads in the U.S. and Argentina, tea gardens in India, and literally created Hong Kong and Calcutta. In a single year, 1871, London absorbed over $100 million of American securities; by 1893 foreigners had sent $3 billion to the U.S. "National boundaries did not disappear; bloody wars were yet to be fought over them. But for the first time in history people, money and goods were able to flow across them quite freely. "It was as if a giant global handkind of like Adam Smith's "invisible hand" gone internationalrearranged the world economy. As Jeffrey Williamson, an economics professor at Harvard, says of this period, 1860-1913: "Capital and labor flowed across national boundaries in unprecedented quantity, and commodity trade boomed." "The results, in terms of global well-being, were fabulous. Railroad and steamship technology had made transportation much cheaper" == My question is where did the foreign capital come from? Who were the investors who bought the railroad stocks and bonds in America? What were their expectations concerning interest and dividends? What happened when the bonds defaulted? I submit much of the capital came from illegal trade--piracy, vice, slavery and opium. That's who founded Forbes. The Forbes, Perkins and Russell families founded Skull and Bones at Yale primarily, IMHO, to keep their trade secrets and to recruit people to carry on the operations throughout the world who would take an oath of secrecy. That's why I tend to discount much of what Forbes magazine publishes. Linda DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- At 09:34 PM 1/16/99 -0800, you wrote: -Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would estimate that of over 50% of all consumer manufactured goods are coming from Communist China. Why? Well, because the capitalist built their latest and best manufacturing plants there? Why? Cheap Labour. Huge Market. MJ: How long has labor been cheap abroad? Why is it only in recent years we have had a (purported) mass exodus? Could it be the regulatory load which has escalated over the past recent years? Regard$, --MJ What do you mean " purported?" Where is America's manufacturing base? Did it disappear down a rabbit hole? There's nothing purported about American corporations leaving in droves. This is bullshit on your part and you know it. You take a foolish position, you have to defend it by flinging bovine droppings and red herrings. American companies had been buying their way out of regulations more and more in the years before leaving these shores for foreign labor. As a matter of fact, they got tax breaks for doing it. This could only happen because they got more complete control of Congress. American corporations are owned by the Rich and their managerial sub- class. These two groups have a long history of theft, violence, crime, and treason against the citizens, workers, and country of the USA. Only a twisted Libertarian would blame regulations as the reason for industrial flight. Everyone with any sense at all knows it's for profit. Workers and nation be damned. Joshua2 The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -- Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787. Two pertinent articles (The Global Hand and Technology Hoax), from the April 21, 1997 edition of Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908085a.htm Barb DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Barb Witt wrote: -Caveat Lector- At 09:34 PM 1/16/99 -0800, you wrote: -Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would estimate that of over 50% of all consumer manufactured goods are coming from Communist China. Why? Well, because the capitalist built their latest and best manufacturing plants there? Why? Cheap Labour. Huge Market. MJ: How long has labor been cheap abroad? Why is it only in recent years we have had a (purported) mass exodus? Could it be the regulatory load which has escalated over the past recent years? Regard$, --MJ What do you mean " purported?" Where is America's manufacturing base? Did it disappear down a rabbit hole? There's nothing purported about American corporations leaving in droves. This is bullshit on your part and you know it. You take a foolish position, you have to defend it by flinging bovine droppings and red herrings. American companies had been buying their way out of regulations more and more in the years before leaving these shores for foreign labor. As a matter of fact, they got tax breaks for doing it. This could only happen because they got more complete control of Congress. American corporations are owned by the Rich and their managerial sub- class. These two groups have a long history of theft, violence, crime, and treason against the citizens, workers, and country of the USA. Only a twisted Libertarian would blame regulations as the reason for industrial flight. Everyone with any sense at all knows it's for profit. Workers and nation be damned. Joshua2 From Jim Norman: May I add the government in many cases subsidise and assist in the movements. In Florida, the Lazard (sp?) Brothers and the Duda Brothers were assisted in moving their agriculture production to Mexico. The government arranged the purchase of their respective properties in south Florida, interfaced with the Mexican authorities in arranging suitable authorizations and properties in Mexico, and assisted with the expense of moving. Jim Norman The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -- Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787. Two pertinent articles (The Global Hand and Technology Hoax), from the April 21, 1997 edition of Forbes: http://www.forbes.com/forbes/97/0421/5908085a.htm Barb DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would estimate that of over 50% of all consumer manufactured goods are coming from Communist China. Why? Well, because the capitalist built their latest and best manufacturing plants there? Why? Cheap Labour. Huge Market. MJ: How long has labor been cheap abroad? Why is it only in recent years we have had a (purported) mass exodus? Could it be the regulatory load which has escalated over the past recent years? Regard$, --MJ What do you mean " purported?" Where is America's manufacturing base? Did it disappear down a rabbit hole? There's nothing purported about American corporations leaving in droves. This is bullshit on your part and you know it. You take a foolish position, you have to defend it by flinging bovine droppings and red herrings. American companies had been buying their way out of regulations more and more in the years before leaving these shores for foreign labor. As a matter of fact, they got tax breaks for doing it. This could only happen because they got more complete control of Congress. American corporations are owned by the Rich and their managerial sub- class. These two groups have a long history of theft, violence, crime, and treason against the citizens, workers, and country of the USA. Only a twisted Libertarian would blame regulations as the reason for industrial flight. Everyone with any sense at all knows it's for profit. Workers and nation be damned. Joshua2 The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -- Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/11/99 6:03:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Explanation: The poorest 40 percent of Americans did not contribute as much to the lifestyle and productivity of American individuals as did Bill Gates. Unlike the poorest 40%, everyone who bought goods from Microsoft did so as a voluntary decision, whereas many of the poorest 40% were recipients of funds extorted by threat of violence from the other 60%. Hawk, you seem to live in a dark pit. On the contrary, my dear man, I live in the bright sunshine of Texas! I even ocassionally venture outside the borders of this magnificent republic. Your response is so appalling that i first passed it by because in the face of such unreality, there doesn't seem to be much to say. Why, Son, that's because there really ISN'T much to say against it, which is all you have any interest in... So, I suppose you're going to bless us with more blather But i will say this. See? I knew it! Suppose that you are perfectly right. I am. Gates wealth relative to the 40% is solely due to his superior productivity so that God Almighty and all decent right thinking citizens see the justice. I might have something to do with saving some back for a "rainy day," hiding some from the greedy and voracious govm't tax collectors, prospering due to the adage, "Help enough people get what they want, and you can have anything you want," and other factors that such as thrift and generosity.. I suspect there is more to it than "pure productivity." Suppose Gates were to increase his productivity even more in ratio to his fellows so that his wealth now exceeds 80% of the population. Would such a wealth distribution be wise even for Mr. Gates? Why not? The fact that he has more doesn't mean that I have less If I didn't have two automobiles, would one suddenly appear in front of some African's hut? As a matter of fact, my own wealth has been INCREASING during the period of time that Bre'r Gates' has been increasing... Ain't that sort of wierd in your contorted economic theory? If there is some causal relationship, I hope Gates does continue to increase his wealth. You haven't come to realize that "wet streets don't cause rain." If so, do you suppose that there might be some point at which society becomes so unstable that the game is over? Don't wish too hard for it... You seem to always get around to some veiled "people's revolution" BS... You're a lot like NUREV, both of you rave on with your Walter Middy delusions of revolutionary grandeur, but I suspect that neither of you would have any idea of what to do if you were suddenly plopped into the middle of revolution... like my Mercedes suddenly materializing in front of the African's hut. Hawk DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- M.A. Johnson wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: Historian Arnold Toynbee studied 21 past civilizations, looking for common factors in their demise. The two most important ones were the EXTREME CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH, and inflexibility in the face of changing conditions within and around them. Aaaah ... but were they FREE societies? Regard$, --MJ Aristotle may be regarded as the cultural barometer of Western history. Whenever his influence dominated the scene, it paved the way for one of history's brilliant eras; whenever it fell, so did mankind. -- Alyssa Rosenbaum Oswald Spengler also investigated the rise and fall of civilizatons in his great book: "The Decline of the West". He found that the growth of centralized power and the development of a welfare state also were characteristics of the end of a civilization. The expansion of the difference between highest and lowest is probably related to those two characteristics, as well. Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: Historian Arnold Toynbee studied 21 past civilizations, looking for common factors in their demise. The two most important ones were the EXTREME CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH, and inflexibility in the face of changing conditions within and around them. Aaaah ... but were they FREE societies? Regard$, --MJ Ooh ... no they were slave societies ruled by a free elite class. Just like today. Eeh ... but it's the act of wealth concentration itself that is the problem. And it is the power that wealth brings that corrupts the freedom of everyone. Yiieeeah ... that's why there must be limits on the amount of wealth individuals can accumulate. YIKES!!! The best way to do that is with a progressive income tax up to 100% when anyone approaches that limit. No tax shelters. No foolin'. 100% tax on income over $2,000,000 per year. If you can't live on that, take a second job in another country. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Gerald Harp wrote: -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 1/11/99 6:03:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Explanation: The poorest 40 percent of Americans did not contribute as much tp the lifestyle and productivity of American individuals as did Bill Gates. Unlike the poorest 40%, everyone who bought goods from Microsoft did so as a voluntary decision, whereas many of the poorest 40% were recipients of funds extorted by threat of violence from the other 60%. Hawk, you seem to live in a dark pit. Your response is so appalling that i first passed it by because in the face of such unreality, there doesn't seem to be much to say. But i will say this. Suppose that you are perfectly right. Gates wealth relative to the 40% is solely due to his superior productivity so that God Almighty and all decent right thinking citizens see the justice. Suppose Gates were to increase his productivity even more in ratio to his fellows so that his wealth now exceeds 80% of the population. Would such a wealth distribution be wise even for Mr. Gates? If so, do you suppose that there might be some point at which society becomes so unstable that the game is over? Jerry Historian Arnold Toynbee studied 21 past civilizations, looking for common factors in their demise. The two most important ones were the EXTREME CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH, and inflexibility in the face of changing conditions within and around them. -- "And it came to pass that in the last days catatonics roamed the earth, and great monsters ruled the masses." Joshua II DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Free at last, all mighty, free at last. Michael, your persistent challegenges for 'ideal'-'logical' purity bemoan the fact that the table is set and full of diners. Arrogant actors in a unduly, elaborate Greecian theatre of the absurd There is money in the bank and expectations of millions that 'continuity' of ' the System' shall continue. By wrapping many fates with their own the 'Conspiracy' attempts to set the stage, and picks the plays, actors and script. Epic scenes, casts of millions, gripping drama, raw sex, blood violence, pacing and pathos. I believe it was Mao, who said something like,"Power come from the end of a gun.' Revolutionary rhetoric. I would estimate that of over 50% of all consumer manufactured goods are coming from Communist China. Why? Well, because the capitalist built their latest and best manufacturing plants there? Why? Cheap Labour. Huge Market. And moreAloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris. Who Benefits?-- Where is the money going?. One would assume that China is making a profit, plus the agents? These are questions about the very real non-idealogical cryptocracies that we live in. These cryptocracies are very zeitgist in their outlook and use dogma to stifle. What do you do with the defective slaves? What do you do with the defective slaves? Do you set them aside? Do you boil them in oil? Do you deceive them, As, you bleed them, All the while? What do you do with the defective slaves? Do you get them to fight one another? You know, To save you the bother? Now, you lose, By the way, Everytime; But the play is the game, And it aint always the same. And isnt being a player, Better than, Being the game? What do you do with the defective slaves? Effectively, cajoling away, Away down the river, Away till the time, A will and a way, For the defective slaves. (C) !997 R. A. Kris Millegan Roads [EMAIL PROTECTED] MHO Om K - In a message dated 1/12/99 5:04:36 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: nurev wrote: Historian Arnold Toynbee studied 21 past civilizations, looking for common factors in their demise. The two most important ones were the EXTREME CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH, and inflexibility in the face of changing conditions within and around them. Aaaah ... but were they FREE societies? Regard$, --MJ -- Aloha, He'Ping, Om, Shalom, Salaam. Em Hotep, Peace Be, Omnia Bona Bonis, All My Relations. Adieu, Adios, Aloha. Amen. Roads End Kris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would estimate that of over 50% of all consumer manufactured goods are coming from Communist China. Why? Well, because the capitalist built their latest and best manufacturing plants there? Why? Cheap Labour. Huge Market. MJ: How long has labor been cheap abroad? Why is it only in recent years we have had a (purported) mass exodus? Could it be the regulatory load which has escalated over the past recent years? Regard$, --MJ The policy of the American government is to leave their citizens free, neither restraining nor aiding them in their pursuits. -- Thomas Jefferson to M. L'Hommande, 1787. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- Subject: The Price We Pay: The 10 Worst Corporations of 1998 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:57:44 -0500 From: Robert Weissman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list CORP-FOCUS [EMAIL PROTECTED] What did we learn in 1998? Microsoft Chairman and CEO Bill Gates' net wealth -- $51 billion -- is greater than the combined net worth of the poorest 40 percent of Americans (106 million people). Hundreds of hospitals are "dumping" patients who can't afford to pay. The feds are criminally prosecuting big tobacco companies for smuggling cigarettes into Canada. (Never mind addicting young kids to smoke and thus condemning them to a certain, albeit, slow, death -- can't criminally prosecute them for that.) There's a bull market in stock fraud. Prescription drugs may cause 100,000 deaths a year. Two Fox-TV reporters in Florida are fired for trying to report on adverse health effects associated with genetically engineered foods. The U.S. Department of Agriculture proposes that genetically engineered foods be labelled "organic." Coal companies continue to cheat on air quality tests as hundreds of coal miners continue to die each year from black lung disease. The North American Securities Administrators Association estimates that Americans lose about $1 million a hour to securities fraud. Robert Reich says that megamergers threaten democracy. Corporate crime explodes, but the academic study of corporate crime vanishes. Three hundred trade unionists around the world were killed in 1997 for defending their rights. Corporate firms lobbying to cripple the Superfund law outnumber environmental groups seeking to defend it by 30 to one. Down on Nike? Chinese political prisoners allegedly make Adidas products. Blue Cross Blue Shield Illinois is a corporate criminal. Chemical companies are testing pesticides on human beings. Senator Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, questions whether the Pentagon's financial controls have suffered a "complete and utter breakdown." Environmental crimes prosecution are down sharply under Clinton/Gore. Bush/Quayle had a better record. Bell Atlantic buys Maurice Sendak's Where the Wild Things Are illustrations to sell telephone products. Companies that have workers die on the job continue to be met with fines. Criminal prosecutions still rare. This is the price we pay for living in Corporate America. Wealth disparity, megamergers and the resulting consolidation of corporate power, commercialism run amok, rampant corporate crime, death without justice, pollution, cancer and an unrelenting attack on democracy. The 1998 market run-up might make plugged-in America feel good about itself, but big business is eating out the democratic foundation of the country, and when the empty shell crumbles, what kind of chaos might we anticipate? If you have justice on your mind, herewith for the tenth consecutive year is Multinational Monitor's effort to pinpoint those responsible. It is, admittedly, a short list -- the Ten Worst Corporations of 1998. But it is a representative list, and as the damage becomes more apparent, as the outrage at, and contempt for, our fearless leaders grows, surely the list, too, will grow. The Ten Worst Corporations of 1998 are: * Chevron, for continuing to do business with a brutal dictatorship in Nigeria and for alleged complicity in the killing of civilian protesters. * Coca-Cola, for hooking America's kids on sugar and soda water. Today, teenage boys and girls drink twice as much soda pop as milk, whereas 20 years ago they drank nearly twice as much milk as soda. * General Motors, for becoming an integral part of the Nazi war machine, and then years later, when documented proof emerges, denying it. * Loral and its chief executive Bernard Schwartz, for dumping $2.2 million into Clinton/Gore and Democratic Party coffers. The Clinton administration responded by approving a human rights waiver to clear the way for technology transfers to China. * Mobil, for supporting the Indonesian military in crushing an indigenous uprising in Aceh province and allegedly allowing the military to use company machinery to dig mass graves. * Monsanto, for introducing genetically engineered foods into the foodstream without adequate safety testing and without labeling, thus exposing consumers to unknown risks. * Royal Caribbean Cruise Lines, for pleading guilty to felony crimes for dumping oil in the Atlantic Ocean and then lying to the Coast Guard about it. * Unocal, for engaging in numerous acts of pollution and law violations, to such a degree that citizens in California petitioned the state's attorney general to revoke the company's charter. * Wal-Mart, for crushing small town America, for paying low, low wages (a huge percentage of Wal-Mart workers are eligible for food stamps), for using Asian child labor and for homogenizing the population; and last, but not least, * Warner-Lambert, for marketing a hazardous
Re: [CTRL] Living in corporate America.
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: -Caveat Lector- Subject: The Price We Pay: The 10 Worst Corporations of 1998 Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:57:44 -0500 From: Robert Weissman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of list CORP-FOCUS [EMAIL PROTECTED] What did we learn in 1998? Microsoft Chairman and CEO Bill Gates' net wealth -- $51 billion -- is greater than the combined net worth of the poorest 40 percent of Americans (106 million people). Explanation: The poorest 40 percent of Americans did not contribute as much tp the lifestyle and productivity of American individuals as did Bill Gates. Unlike the poorest 40%, everyone who bought goods from Microsoft did so as a voluntary decision, whereas many of the poorest 40% were recipients of funds extorted by threat of violence from the other 60%. Hundreds of hospitals are "dumping" patients who can't afford to pay. Explanation: There is no such thing as a free lunch... or for that matter, "free hospital care." Anytime anyone gets something for nothing, someone got NOTHING for something. By the way, where did they "dump" these folks? Out behind the hospital in the alley? The feds are criminally prosecuting big tobacco companies for smuggling cigarettes into Canada. (Never mind addicting young kids to smoke and thus condemning them to a certain, albeit, slow, death -- can't criminally prosecute them for that.) Explanation: A "company" cannot addict anyone to anything. Addiction is a voluntary act on the part of the additee. There's a bull market in stock fraud. Explanation: Stay out of the stock market. Prescription drugs may cause 100,000 deaths a year. Explanation: Prescription drugs may save 100,000,000 lives this year, probably more. Two Fox-TV reporters in Florida are fired for trying to report on adverse health effects associated with genetically engineered foods. Explanation: I guess Mark Twain was wrong when he said, "It is amazing how easy it is to obtain someones cooperation when the receipt of his pay check depends on it." The U.S. Department of Agriculture proposes that genetically engineered foods be labelled "organic." Explanation: Don't believe anything ANY department of the U.S. govm't says. Coal companies continue to cheat on air quality tests as hundreds of coal miners continue to die each year from black lung disease. Explanation: When one places himself in harm's way, one is subject to being harmed. There should be some responsibility for the choices we make. Black lung disease has been around long enough for (even) coal miners to realize that they are accepting personal risk in taking the job. The North American Securities Administrators Association estimates that Americans lose about $1 million a hour to securities fraud. Explanation: Don't invest in "securities." Manage your own money, then if you lose it, blame no one but yourself. Robert Reich says that megamergers threaten democracy. Corporate crime explodes, but the academic study of corporate crime vanishes. Explanation: Don't believe ANYTHING Robert Rice says.. He works for the government. The greatest "threat to democracy" is not corporate growth but government growth. Three hundred trade unionists around the world were killed in 1997 for defending their rights. Explanation: "Defending their rights" might also be interpreted as, "trying to keep other people from working who really want to work but don't want to belong to a union." Corporate firms lobbying to cripple the Superfund law outnumber environmental groups seeking to defend it by 30 to one. Explanation: That's really good news. For example: The Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) claims that in 1990 clean air and clean water regulations reduced the American gross national product by almost 6%. Six percent of the 1990 U.S. GNP is enough money to provide jobs with salaries of $50,000 to 6,651,480 unemployed people. In American in 1990 there were, by the way, 6,874,000 people unemployed. The EPA and the Office of Management and Budget calculate that $20 billion will be spent for each case of cancer averted. Of course you, personally might be willing to spend $20 billion not to get cancer. But, assuming you had $20 billion, how would your wife and kids feel about you spending this way? You can hear them saying, "Dad, its just a lump," or "who cares about a sudden change in a wart or mole?" The Council of Economic Advisors has pointed out one EPA rule, concerning wood preservatives, that is estimated to prevent a single occurrence of cancer every 2.9 million years at a cost of $5 trillion per life saved. Down on Nike? Chinese political prisoners allegedly make Adidas products. Explanation: Going barefoot will result in the release of a Chinese prisoner? Blue Cross Blue Shield Illinois is a corporate criminal. Chemical companies are testing pesticides on human beings. Explanation: Floride
