[CTRL] School Vouchers, Robin Hood Plan, Privatization of education
-Caveat Lector- These are just some ideas - they will be fleashed out and added to the sites listed at the end. Other concerns that esulated from 1600 - 1700 - 1800 - 1900 and on were how machines integrated into business. This lead to a Ortes, Malthus, Engels, Marx and many more speculating on the roles of Government, Merchant, Religion, and worker. Now we have an economy subcontract everything out to businesses that have stocks the stocks are used as economic indicators of economic health Gradually making it too expensive for small business Too expensive to have states and state workers Sum: This gets rid of nationality - Businesses doing thier own education and with vouchers getting paid for it or did you think the Robin Hood plan and vouchers were to help urban areas? All state agencies will gradually be subcontracted out, it will be too expensive to be a state, and like S. Africa corporations will be given the same status as http://ThePiedPiper.tripod.com/deskill/deskill2/timeintables.html Time Line in tables http://ThePiedPiper.tripod.com/deskill/deskill2/Marx.html Impressions on the life and times of Karl Marx http://www.ctrl.org/";>www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html";>Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/";>ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- >Is there a particular reason you removed the CONTEXT? What are you talking about? What context? >>>MJ You do comprehend Statism? >>Nessie Yup. What of it? >MJ Your PREVIOUS comments when compared with the above remarks would indicate otherwise. How so? Be specific. What exactly do you mean by statism? Define your terms. >MJ Perhaps you can refresh our memories since the literacy rate pre-socialist schools exceeds the post socialist schools. (1.) Life is short. I dont plan to waste any of it duplicating my effort for your benefit, simply because you are too lazy to scroll back. (2.) What do you mean socialist schools? What socialist schools? Define your terms. Be specific. (3.) Exceeds? By how much? According to whom? Cite your sources. >>>MJ How will an education through 'cooperation' be WORSE than an education by force? >>Nessie I didn't. I said that if corporations seize control of public education, it will be worse. >MJ I am well aware of your statement. Then why did you intentionally distort it? Are you a congenital liar, or merely an inept debater? >How will corporations be able to FORCE students to attend (1.) I didnt say that they will. Stop putting words in my mouth. Its rude. Its dishonest. (2.) What are you trying to say here, that privatizing education, or even instituting a voucher system, will simultaneously eliminate truancy laws? Do you want to eliminate truancy laws? If so, why? >or taxpayers to pay as our Government does now? Where do you think that voucher money is going to come from? >How is it possible for corporations to 'seize' control without FORCE? Through politics. The armed might of the state is the cats paw of the corporations. >What is one's 'fair share'? As much as you can possibly spare. It shouldnt impact your ability to survive. But, the more you can spare, the more you should contribute. >>Are you saying that you do not consent to contributing your share of the expense of public education? A simple yes or no will suffice. >MJ I have no choice in the matter currently ... it is taken by force. HERE is where the Statism from above comes into play. That wasnt a yes or a no. That was a very lame attempt at evasion. Answer the question I asked, not a question I didnt ask. Do you or do you not consent to contributing your share of the expense of public education? Yes or no? > It is the height of arrogance for you to lecture others as to their "moral duty". It is the height of arrogance for you to presume that you dont need to be lectured. You are a moral cripple. You extol selfishness, and you do it in public, where even innocent children can read you. Have you no shame? >Above you suggest one contribute 'their fair share' to your education goals. Any meaning OTHER than a parent paying for their responsibilities -- ie their child or those children they have chosen such a role -- involves theft of someone's funds ... the enslavement of individuals in order to provide. You have it backwards. Were all in this together, all of humanity. We are totally dependent on, and responsible for, one another. To withhold ones share of the effort that is needed to keep civilization happening, and yet to reap its benefits, is theft. To propose denying any child the very best education possible is unspeakably despicable. People who do so should be ostracized, shunned by all humanity until they reform. However, in your case I would like to make an exception. With your permission, I would like to continue to use you as a foil. Youre a great foil. Nothing I could ever say could discredit your sick and evil philosophy as well as the obvious deficiencies of a mind that embraces them. What better illustration than your own inarticulate debate style? >God just told me that you are full of shit. Then yours is a false god. Only my god is real. Ask anyone but a pagan about god and theyll tell you the exact same thing. >This is simply ANOTHER religious tenet that you would force on others. Im not forcing anything on anybody. I attempting to use persuasion to convince you, and our audience, of the error of your ways. If I was using force, youd know it. Im perfectly capable of using force, and do so whenever the occasion warrants. Im not using it on you, in part because youre not worth the effort. It would be too time consuming even to find you, because you hide like a coward behind the internet. I seriously doubt that you have ever out spouted this crap F2F to parents at a PTA meeting. Maybe you should. Youd learn a thing or two. >It is Fascistic to attempt to impose your concept of "moral duty" on others by threat of force through government intimidation. I dont. Neither do I propose it be done. In fact, this is precisely why I object to vouchers. Vouchers would mean that the government would take my money from me by force and u
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- Is there a particular reason you removed the CONTEXT? This is errant nonsense and statist sophistry. Nessie Who said anything about statism? I don't think the government should run the schools, either. I just don't want to to see them fall into the hands of the corporations. That would be much, much worse. MJ You do comprehend Statism? Nessie Yup. What of it? MJ Your PREVIOUS comments when compared with the above remarks would indicate otherwise. MJ Not that you provide support for *any* of your drivel (as I remain on vigil for your pre-socialist schools literacy details) ... Nessie I posted a bunch of pointers yesterday. Scroll back. MJ Perhaps you can refresh our memories since the literacy rate pre-socialist schools exceeds the post socialist schools. MJ How will an education through 'cooperation' be WORSE than an education by force? Nessie I didn't. I said that if corporations seize control of public education, it will be worse. MJ I am well aware of your statement. How will corporations be able to FORCE students to attend or taxpayers to pay as our Government does now? How is it possible for corporations to 'seize' control without FORCE? Nessie Personally, I'd prefer to see schools managed by parent-teacher cooperatives. MJ Remove Government from the equation ... and this could certainly be one option. Nessie I'm in favor of that. I'm not in favor of anybody not paying their share of the expenses. MJ What is one's 'fair share'? MJ Will your cooperatives require other people's money which is to be provided without their consent? Nessie Are you saying that you do not consent to contributing your share of the expense of public education? A simple yes or no will suffice. MJ I have no choice in the matter currently ... it is taken by force. HERE is where the Statism from above comes into play. It is the height of arrogance for you to lecture others as to their "moral duty". Nessie It's my moral duty to attempt to enlighten you, because you are a fellow human being and you are morally remiss. It is also pragmatic to attempt to help you to mend yourself of your error because your error threatens the future of all of us. MJ How is a philosophy with roots in rape, theft and enslavement ... moral? Nessie How is does my philosophy have "roots in rape, theft and enslavement"? Be specific. MJ Above you suggest one contribute 'their fair share' to your education goals. Any meaning OTHER than a parent paying for their responsibilities -- ie their child or those children they have chosen such a role -- involves theft of someone's funds ... the enslavement of individuals in order to provide. MJ WHO says it is YOUR 'duty' as you describe it? By what definition? Edict? Nessie God told me. Personally. MJ Really? God just told me that you are full of shit. This is simply ANOTHER religious tenet that you would force on others. It is Fascistic to attempt to impose your concept of "moral duty" on others by threat of force through government intimidation. Nessie That depends on the circumstance. In this particular instance I'm not using force. I'm using logic, reason and morality. If I was using force, you'd know it. MJ What logic? Nessie Since you ask that question at all, I must assume you lack the cognitive skills to understand the answer. Over the last few days I have stated and explained my logic in plain English and in math. Apparently you need somebody to draw you a picture. I'm sorry I can't do that here. This is a text medium. MJ Oh, FALLACIES of logic ... now it makes better sense. Other then not harm my innocent fellow citizens, or steal their property, my moral duty is not to impose my personal beliefs on others. Nessie That's a selfish, self centered and short sighted philosophy. MJ What do you imagine the 'philosophy' you are shoveling is? Nessie Direct, participatory democracy, worker self management, sharing, cooperation and sustainability. In short, I'm promoting anarchism, DIY government. MJ Democracy is rule by mob and NOT compatible with anarchy -- which will necessarily result in gang warfare interrupted by dictatorship of various sorts. That which you are promoting is as selfish, self-centered and short-sighted as you imagine was being described to you -- if not more so. Nessie If everyone felt like you, we'd be in a sorry state indeed. MJ How? If everyone took care of THEMSELVES ... stole from no one else ... cooperated ... how could this be possible? Nessie Because not everybody CAN take care of themselves. MJ That was not the gist of the ideal. Who will determine which persons cannot care for themselves? Why this person? Nessie If you ever find yours
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- >You do comprehend Statism? Yup. What of it? > Not that you provide support for *any* of your drivel (as I remain on vigil for your pre-socialist schools literacy details) ... I posted a bunch of pointers yesterday. Scroll back. >How will an education through 'cooperation' be WORSE than an education by force? I didnt. I said that if corporations seize control of public education, it will be worse. >Remove Government from the equation ... and this could certainly be one option. Im in favor of that. Im not in favor of anybody not paying their share of the expenses. >Will your cooperatives require other people's money which is to be provided without their consent? Are you saying that you do not consent to contributing your share of the expense of public education? A simple yes or no will suffice. >How is a philosophy with roots in rape, theft and enslavement ... moral? How is does my philosophy have roots in rape, theft and enslavement? Be specific. >WHO says it is YOUR 'duty' as you describe it? God told me. Personally. By what definition? Edict? >What logic? Since you ask that question at all, I must assume you lack the cognitive skills to understand the answer. Over the last few days I have stated and explained my logic in plain English and in math. Apparently you need somebody to draw you a picture. Im sorry I cant do that here. This is a text medium. >What do you imagine the 'philosophy' you are shoveling is? Direct, participatory democracy, worker self management, sharing, cooperation and sustainability. In short, Im promoting anarchism, DIY government. >If everyone took care of THEMSELVES ... stole from no one else ... cooperated ... how could this be possible? Because not everybody CAN take care of themselves. >What makes YOU more important than others? I never said I was. I do say that Im smarter than you are and a heck of a lot nicer person. But thats another story, and this isnt the proper venue. >Karl Marx tried to devise an economic system that got rid of selfishness. He did no such thing. Marxism is nothing but state monopoly capitalism. The USSR was nothing but a big company town. All Marxism does is change the bosss name. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. A boss is a boss is a boss. A pox on them all. Round em all up and herd em off a cliff, I say, every last one of them. And sing and dance while they fall. >The Soviet block lagged well behind the West in economic growth. This was primarily because the West forced them to spend the bulk of their resources on defense. >The people there lived in a police state. We live in a police state. >But selfishness, of a type, continued to thrive there. A Soviet citizen did not get ahead by trading with others. He prospered by climbing the political ladder through corruption. How is that different from here? There is no difference between the political ladder and the corporate ladder because the real political power is not the government; its the corporations. They own the land, they control the food supply, they control the energy supply, the medicine, the transportation, everything. Even our tax supported military functions primarily as the private army of the oil companies. What we call the government is nothing but a front for the corporations. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ctrl o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- This is errant nonsense and statist sophistry. Nessie Who said anything about statism? I don't think the government should run the schools, either. I just don't want to to see them fall into the hands of the corporations. That would be much, much worse. MJ You do comprehend Statism? Not that you provide support for *any* of your drivel (as I remain on vigil for your pre-socialist schools literacy details) ... How will an education through 'cooperation' be WORSE than an education by force? Nessie Personally, I'd prefer to see schools managed by parent-teacher cooperatives. MJ Remove Government from the equation ... and this could certainly be one option. Will your cooperatives require other people's money which is to be provided without their consent? It is the height of arrogance for you to lecture others as to their "moral duty". Nessie It's my moral duty to attempt to enlighten you, because you are a fellow human being and you are morally remiss. It is also pragmatic to attempt to help you to mend yourself of your error because your error threatens the future of all of us. MJ How is a philosophy with roots in rape, theft and enslavement ... moral? WHO says it is YOUR 'duty' as you describe it? By what definition? Edict? Nessie If public education falls into corporate hands, this will be a much worse place to live, worse even than it is today. MJ Yes, you made this claim above ... How will an education through 'cooperation' be WORSE than an education by force? It is Fascistic to attempt to impose your concept of "moral duty" on others by threat of force through government intimidation. Nessie That depends on the circumstance. In this particular instance I'm not using force. I'm using logic, reason and morality. If I was using force, you'd know it. MJ What logic? Other then not harm my innocent fellow citizens, or steal their property, my moral duty is not to impose my personal beliefs on others. Nessie That's a selfish, self centered and short sighted philosophy. MJ What do you imagine the 'philosophy' you are shoveling is? Nessie If everyone felt like you, we'd be in a sorry state indeed. MJ How? If everyone took care of THEMSELVES ... stole from no one else ... cooperated ... how could this be possible? Nessie If you ever find yourself bleeding to death in a ditch, as I once did , that you remember as the cars stream past, that by your way of thinking, they have no moral duty to stop and help you. MJ Right. What makes YOU more important than others? Regard$, --MJ The classic redistribution-of-wealth mentality works this way: A and B get together to impose a tax on C so they can give his money to D, who out of a mix of envy of C, gratitude to A and B, and selfishness, then votes for A and B again so they can repeat the process next year. A and B justify playing Robin Hood by claiming that C has plenty of money and, in any event, has a social responsibility to help 'the needy'. Of course, D is 'needy'. -- William Stanmeyer Karl Marx tried to devise an economic system that got rid of selfishness. The results are well-known. The Soviet block lagged well behind the West in economic growth. The people there lived in a police state. But selfishness, of a type, continued to thrive there. A Soviet citizen did not get ahead by trading with others. He prospered by climbing the political ladder through corruption. -- Charles Oliver http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- >This is errant nonsense and statist sophistry. Who said anything about statism? I dont think the government should run the schools, either. I just dont want to to see them fall into the hands of the corporations. That would be much, much worse. Personally, Id prefer to see schools managed by parent-teacher cooperatives. >It is the height of arrogance for you to lecture others as to their "moral duty". Its my moral duty to attempt to enlighten you, because you are a fellow human being and you are morally remiss. It is also pragmatic to attempt to help you to mend yourself of your error because your error threatens the future of all of us. If public education falls into corporate hands, this will be a much worse place to live, worse even than it is today. >It is Fascistic to attempt to impose your concept of "moral duty" on others by threat of force through government intimidation. That depends on the circumstance. In this particular instance Im not using force. Im using logic, reason and morality. If I was using force, you'd know it. >Other then not harm my innocent fellow citizens, or steal their property, my moral duty is not to impose my personal beliefs on others. Thats a selfish, self centered and short sighted philosophy. If everyone felt like you, wed be in a sorry state indeed. If you ever find yourself bleeding to death in a ditch, as I once did , that you remember as the cars stream past, that by your way of thinking, they have no moral duty to stop and help you. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ctrl o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- >Education is not a "right." Every parent has a duty to educate his/her offspring. Govt should not steal people's money to force them to pay for other's parental responsibilities. Thats where youre wrong. Every human being is born with the moral responsibility to care for, nurture, protect and educate every other human being who needs it. When you withhold what it is your moral duty to give, it is you who are stealing from the rest of us. This is errant nonsense and statist sophistry. It is the height of arrogance for you to lecture others as to their "moral duty". It is Fascistic to attempt to impose your concept of "moral duty" on others by threat of force through government intimidation. Other then not harm my innocent fellow citizens, or steal their property, my moral duty is not to impose my personal beliefs on others. Im a sociologist, an anthropologist, a psychologist, and old. Ive been around a long time. Ive met a LOT of people. Im a GOOD judge of character. In my expert opinion, you dont talk like a poor person or like somebody you cares about others, especially about poor people. Youre either a selfish, self centered, greedy, irresponsible jerk or else youre a world class fraud. Which is it? I am not interested in your matchbook cover credentials. You are a good example of that maxim: "No fool like an old fool." flw http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- >>Some of you may enjoy reading the following book: http://www.centuryone.com/1849-3.html See also any encyclopedia, Wells, Gibbon, Knox, Perry, Durant, etc. It's not hard to find. www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. ÝÝÝÚrchives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ ctrl o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: > > -Caveat Lector- > > Nessie > Before public education, literacy was limited to a handful, all rich or > in the employ of the church. That was failure. Some of you may enjoy reading the following book: http://www.centuryone.com/1849-3.html HOW THE IRISH SAVED CIVILIZATION : The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role (Hinges of History Series Volume 1) Thomas Cahill (cover price $12.95) CenturyOne Price $10.36 Savings of $2.59 (20%) Item #1849-3 The untold story of Ireland's role in maintaining Western culture while the Dark Ages settled on Europe. Every year millions of Americans celebrate St. Patrick's Day, but they may not be aware of how great an influence St. Patrick was on the subsequent history of civilization. Not only did he bring Christianity to Ireland, he instilled a sense of literacy and learning that would create the conditions that allowed Ireland to become "the isle of saints and scholars" and thus preserve Western culture while Europe was being overrun by barbarians. In this entertaining and compelling narrative, Thomas Cahill tells the story of how Europe evolved front the classical age of Rome to the medieval era. Without Ireland, the transition could not have taken place. Not only did Irish monks and scribes maintain the very record of Western civilization copying manuscripts of Greek and Latin writers, both pagan and Christian, while libraries and learning on the continent were forever lost they brought their uniquely Irish world-view to the task. As Cahill delightfully illustrates, so much of the liveliness we associate with medieval culture has its roots in Ireland. When the seeds of culture were replanted on the European continent, it was from Ireland that they were germinated. In the tradition of Barbara Tuchmail's A Distant Mirror, How The Irish Saved Civilization reconstructs an era that few know about but which is central to understanding our past and our cultural heritage. But it conveys its knowledge with a winking wit that aptly captures the sensibility of the unsung Irish who relaunched civilization. Kelly http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- Nessie Before public education, literacy was limited to a handful, all rich or in the employ of the church. That was failure. MJ Bullshit. Kindly PROVE your assertion. Regard$, --MJ By preventing a free market in education, a handful of social engineers ... has ensured that most of our children will not have an education, even though they may be thoroughly schooled. -- John Taylor Gatto _Dumbing Us Down_ 1992 http://www.ctrl.org/">www.ctrl.org DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion & informational exchange list. Proselytizing propagandic screeds are unwelcomed. Substancenot soap-boxingplease! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory'with its many half-truths, mis- directions and outright fraudsis used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRLgives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html http://peach.ease.lsoft.com/archives/ctrl.html">Archives of [EMAIL PROTECTED] http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/">ctrl To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] School Vouchers
-Caveat Lector- >I agree. But since we have institutionalized a system where Govt usurps citizens funds to pay for so called public education... a voucher system is an improvement over the failed system now in place. (1.) The system now in place is flawed, but it certainly has not failed. Before public education, literacy was limited to a handful, all rich or in the employ of the church. That was failure. (2.) Stating repeatedly that a voucher system is an improvement over the failed system now in place proves neither that a voucher system is an improvement nor that the system now in place has failed. It does not prove, but does strongly suggest, that you cant prove either of these things. If you could prove them, you would most likely do so and not repeat yourself. Thats not how debate works. Thats how six year olds fight. >Education is not a "right." Every parent has a duty to educate his/her offspring. Govt should not steal people's money to force them to pay for other's parental responsibilities. Thats where youre wrong. Every human being is born with the moral responsibility to care for, nurture, protect and educate every other human being who needs it. When you withhold what it is your moral duty to give, it is you who are stealing from the rest of us. >How the hell would you have any idea about my background. Making such an assumption proves you are a shallow thinker. Im a sociologist, an anthropologist, a psychologist, and old. Ive been around a long time. Ive met a LOT of people. Im a GOOD judge of character. In my expert opinion, you dont talk like a poor person or like somebody you cares about others, especially about poor people. Youre either a selfish, self centered, greedy, irresponsible jerk or else youre a world class fraud. Which is it? >Selfeshness is a human survival trait that has evolved over millions of years of evolution. Thats where youre wrong again. If you want people to even suspect, let alone believe, that you are conversant with the evolution of, or anything else about, selfishness, I strongly suggest that you first learn to spell the damn word. Id rebut your point further myself, but Kropotkin does a better job of it. Read him: http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/kropotki/sp001503/ >It is no more a "disease" then anger, lust, hunger or sadness. Youre talking apples and oranges here. Anger, lust, hunger or sadness are emotions. Selfishness is behavior. >Now you are starting to "get it." I agree that is is "intolerable" to "take" your money "by threat of force" whether it is given to religious schools or Govt Schools. Wrong again. It is our moral duty to educate all. Its also the smart thing to do, in that it benefits everyone. What is intolerable is that money be taken from me by force and used to promote a religion not my own. This is something upon which people of all religions can agree. >It is gross elitism to equate low income with dysfunctionality. I didnt say it was. Dont put words into my mouth. Its rude. Its dishonest. Poverty doesnt make you more likely to be dysfunctional. It does, however, make it more difficult for you to educate your kids properly. For one thing, it makes it more likely that you yourself are uneducated. For another thing, home education tools cost money. If youre having trouble making the rent, you certainly dont have the money for an encyclopedia, a computer, or tutors. >I never suggested we turn to "corporate schools" to fix anything. Are you suggesting that there are private schools which are not incorporated? List ten. Give their addresses. >Anyone who does not realize that our current Govt School System is a creature of the Corporate State is either naive, ignorant or deluded. It is in part a creature of the Corporate State and in part it is a product of the publics just and cogent demand for education for all. >>Which ones? Be specific or we may justifiably assume that you are making it up. > I am not going to reinvent the wheel. Thats an extremely lame excuse for not doing your homework. >These are basic facts well known to anyone who does even a cursory review. Perhaps. Perhaps not. Either way, your refusal to cite sources discredits both your contention and your scholarship. Anywhere, but especially on the internet, the lack of citation makes anything that anybody says suspect. >Try and understand this. If there is a finite amount of public funds available for public schools and a substantial proportion of kids leave Govt Schools to attend private schools at less per pupil cost.then there is more money available for those who remain in Govt Schools. Wrong. Try to understand this: The amount of funds made available to any individual public school is determined on the basis of how many kids are enrolled there. They fewer kids that go to an individual school, the less money it is allocated to that individual school. A
Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] School Vouchers: The Parent Trap]
-Caveat Lector- Mike Moxley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -Caveat Lector- > > VOUCHERS: THE PARENT TRAP Who will have the fundamental right of educating > children: parents or politicians? By Cathie Adams, president of Texas Eagle > Forum > One of the hidden agendas in the school voucher movement is a desire by certain politicians to channel tax dollars to parochial schools, in direct violation of the separation of church and state. For many years, the Vatican has sought to break down the barriers between church and state in this country and get the same kind of state funding for its schools and salaries for its clergy that exist in other countries such as Germany and Poland. The Curia cannot get it through their birettas that the United States Constitution's guarantee of religious freedom is a two-edged sword--at the same time it protects the right of everyone to worship as they feel led, it warns us that state support of religious institutions leads inevitably to state *control* of those institutions, rather than the other way around. (This is the lesson of the Grove City case.) If churches are to remain free of government intervention, they must also remain free of government funding. QED, over and over and over again... Bob = Robert F. Tatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Remove "nospam" from the address to reply. NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED COMMERCIAL E-MAIL (SPAM) TO THIS OR ANY OTHER INTERNET ADDRESS. RECEIPT OF SPAM WILL RESULT IN IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION OF THE SENDER'S ISP. Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
[CTRL] School Vouchers: The Parent Trap
-Caveat Lector- VOUCHERS: THE PARENT TRAP Who will have the fundamental right of educating children: parents or politicians? By Cathie Adams, president of Texas Eagle Forum Virtually every candidate for political office claims that if we elect him, he will fix public education, and since 92% of our children attend public schools, such political promises appeal to almost everyone. Those political promises have led to a multitude of unproven education fads introduced in public school classrooms, but there is one idea that has yet to overcome political opposition: vouchers, a.k.a. school choice. There are two major sources of opposition for the idea: teachers' unions who are afraid of losing part of their funding and those who hold to free market ideals and oppose government regulations. Voucher supporters claim they would create competition for the public schools and thereby improve them. But columnist Charlie Reese sums it up nicely: "Government schools cannot compete in any sense of the word. They are government schools, creatures of law and politics. Faculty, its pay, and the curricula are determined not by the schools, but by politicians, bureaucrats and, in some cases judges. To state that public schools can compete with private schools is like saying a bronze statue of a horse can compete with a live one." In reality, public funding would destroy private education. Saralee Rhoades outlines why in The Freeman, a newsletter published by The Foundation for Economic Education: Private schools will become dependent on this new source of money and in time unable to exist without it. Private schools electing to safeguard their freedoms, not taking advantage of "free" money, will not be able to compete. When the only schools left are government schools, is there any assurance that the quality of public schooling will not precipitously decline as it has before? The resultant government monopoly will preclude any form of competitive standards. Costs will skyrocket as offices are set up nationwide to monitor the expenditure of government funds, protect students from exploitation, and expand services as further needs arise. Eventually the aim will be the maintenance of the program, not the education of children. Compliance with government policy and maintenance of the status quo will assume greater and greater importance, as more workers become dependent on government-subsidized salaries. The bottom line is that government cannot fix the educational problem because government is the problem. Some insist that voucher legislation can be written to protect private schools. Chester Finn, chief architect of the National Goals (presented in former President Bush's America 2000 plan and President Clinton's Goals 2000) and a voucher advocate refutes the claim. "Some to be sure, like to think they can have it both ways; i.e. can obtain aid without saddling themselves with unacceptable forms of regulation. But most acknowledge the general applicability of the old adage that he who pays the piper calls the tune, and are more or less resigned to amalgamating or choosing between assistance or autonomy." Texas voucher supporters believe that if legislation denies federal funds, then private schools would be free from government strings. In 1995, the Texas Legislature passed Senate Bill 1 and created the Texas Workforce Commission that have brought about systemic reforms required by federal education laws, Goals 2000 and School-to-Work. The Texas Assessment of Academic Skills (TAAS) is being restructured to come into compliance with the rewrite of Texas' essential elements into performance standards/outcomes called Texas Essential Knowledge and Skillsall an outgrowth of the federal programs. It is logical that if private and public schools are answerable to the same bureaucracies, the Texas Education Agency (TEA) and the Texas Comptroller, then they will both be controlled by the federal government programs. State regulation is guaranteed. Governor George W. Bush has said, "I believe we ought to try a pilot voucher program that is tied to our accountability system [the TAAS test]." Rather than public schools being forced to compete in an education market place with private schools, the private schools would be forced to conform to the same outcome-based standards and performance-based tests prescribed for every public school by both federal and state governments. Ronald Trowbridge, vice-president for external programs and communications at Hillsdale College in Michigan, wrote in The Wall Street Journal "If government vouchers are extended to private primary and secondary schools, truly private schools in five, 10, 15 or 20 years will become virtually extinct." Courts have broadened government control over private schools that take government funds. The infamous Grove City College vs. Bell case decided that even though the GI bill funds went directly to a student rather than a school, it came under federal regulations. The
[CTRL] School vouchers
-Caveat Lector- January 31, 99 Today's Houston Chronicle has an article on the chances of Texas becoming one of three states to offer vouchers to family's for private schools. The article can be read at http://www.chron.com/content/story.html/page1/186553 You have to register with the Houston Chronicle on-lineto read the article, but the registration is free. http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/Intro2.htm DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
