Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Howard R. Davis III [EMAIL PROTECTED] nurev wrote: "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: Ric Carter wrote: Does the concept of the primacy of "individual rights" preclude any individuals from joining in free association, incorporating as groups to engage in commercial, charitable, governmental or other activities? Do corporations [public or private] have more, equal or less rights than individuals? Corporations do not have individual rights nor should they. They are a creation of government and thus should be regulated. No no. They are the creation of Capitalists with the license from government. Jeez guys, can't you get over this government as bogey- man shit? It positively ruins your thinking abilities. A corporation is an artificial entity. It can have no existence without government. It is you that have a problem with your thinking ability. It is true that someone (usually capitalists, but also others) may petition the government for the corporation's creation and own it. It is, however, created by the government when a charter is filed. Everybody's missing the point: a gov't is a corporation too, as are non-profit agencies [NGOs], religions, any groups that are organized within certain guidelines [which vary from place to place]. To that extent, ANY legally organized group is an "artificial entity", eh? Cities, churches, cartels, charities, manufacturers, bankers, unions, traders, lawyers, political parties, doctors, all incorporate under the laws of some jurisdiction or another. And such a jurisdiction, itself a corporation, defines the rights/privileges/obligations of any individual or organized group within that jurisdiction. So I return to my original question: does the concept of "individual rights" interfere with the ability of individuals to associate, to join together, to organize in groups, for whatever purpose? Do people in groups have more or equal or less rights/privileges/obligations than they do individually, as seen from the context of "individual rights"? Remember, people organize such groups precisely because a group is capable of mustering resources, developing specialties, doing things that an individual is unable to do. So, because a group can do things an individual can't, is a group more or less responsible for its actions than an individual would be? Or does "individual rights" mean that groups are non-entities, fictional, evil, what? Ric, puzzled... DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- Okay Nuerve and E Mael..that's good boys. Now Moo Moo is going to take nap (but I am a light sleeper, remember that). Moo Moo DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- Neurv and E Mael: I thought I told you two kids to knock it off...its Mother's Day Moo Moo DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- E Mael wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: I answered you off list. Why did you go back on list smilin' tweezer boy? - J2 - just one of many dirty tricks you will learn when you play with me, monkey boy. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. and go clean that shit off 'n yo shoes, you hillbilly. How someone as spazzed out as you can both breath, and breath at the same time is truly amazing. But here is a real intelligence test. It's called SWITCH. You take a thumb and stick it in your mouth. Then you take your remaining thumb ( you do have only 2 don't you?) and stick it in your ass. Then... With deep respect, Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: -Caveat Lector- "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: -Caveat Lector- Ah, here is the crux of the problem. This person, and and capitalists in general would like everyone to take on their belief system. Individualism, individual rights, and the ever so lovely PROPERTY IS PRIOR TO LAW. These twisted apostles of greed and arrogant stupidity are just simply selfish bastards inventing justifications for their sorry assed selves. Who in their right mind would claim that " property is prior to law?" Not only isn't this factual in all of human evolution, but it's a pathetic indication of a warped and sick personality. Long before governments and law existed men and women gathered or killed food to eat. Was this food not their property? No. It was food. They created tools which made their efforts more efficient. Were these tools not the property of their creators? No. They were possessions. Please explain the difference between property and possessions. Later they planted and cared for certain plants which they found they preferred over others. Were these not then their property? It was in order to protect these properties from those who simply stole these creations from their creators that the banding together of people originated. What is this mish-mash? People (?) banded together for warmth and mutual protection even before they were people. You are correct. People and their predecessors did band together before property was developed. However, as the possessions of the people increased from just their lives to tools and surplus food the banding together increased in complexity. Agreements between unrelated groups had to be made and this is where you get the first lawyers, I suppose. What you are describing above is the A.O.P.L. the Association Of Paranoid Landlords. Yes, precisely. Thank you for agreeing with me. This was the origin of government and law. And, in fact, it seems that early written records indicate that law preceded government. At least that seems to me to be what is indicated by the early books of the bible. Yeah, there is a good source for historical reference. Again we are in agreement. Property is a legal invention. Like the corporation. It came into existence to legitimize and institutionalize the holdings of the rich. Property is an agreed upon fiction. Especially when it is in the form of land. How can you own something that was here before you and will be here after you. It is the state that insures ownership. If there is no state, then you need to command force to protect your property. Property rights are flimsy at best. Human rights and property rights often come into conflict where the property owners userp the power of State. Then comes revolution and property is redistributed or redefined. Funny how Libertarians and Conservatives and capitalists in general see these legal inventions as natural rights. There is nothing natural about lawyer reality. It's always just a temporary condition. Or as Mao said: "Power comes through the barrel of a gun". Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: -Caveat Lector- "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: -Caveat Lector- Ric Carter wrote: Does the concept of the primacy of "individual rights" preclude any individuals from joining in free association, incorporating as groups to engage in commercial, charitable, governmental or other activities? Do corporations [public or private] have more, equal or less rights than individuals? Corporations do not have individual rights nor should they. They are a creation of government and thus should be regulated. No no. They are the creation of Capitalists with the license from government. Jeez guys, can't you get over this government as bogeyman shit? It positively ruins your thinking abilities. A corporation is an artificial entity. It can have no existence without government. It is you that have a problem with your thinking ability. It is true that someone (usually capitalists, but also others) may petition the government for the corporation's creation and own it. It is, however, created by the government when a charter is filed. Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: MONKEY BOY!!! NAVEL LINT!!! Listen here you wayward wad of whapit. The best part of you streamed down the pigs thigh. It contained the chromosomes with the instructions to develop a brain. How do you write this shit anyway? Who can stand you enough to push the keys for you? Does your poor mom know your up? - J2 - no, but yours knows i am. and yes the best part of me did stream down her leg, son. and yes i know that i often repress people with my literary acuity. and no i do not even need anyone to push my keys as i am still fairly handy at pushing them myself. so what do you do when you are not PR ing for a halfwit. you will never find the other half if you keep up that yammering, son. and i will have you keep a civil note when addressing me, if you please to stay on the list. try to control yourself a little more, as that could develope into incontenance and you won't be able to go outside with out a diaper if that developes. have a nice day smilin' chris DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- Okay you guys.this is Mother Jones talkingknock it off. Moo Moo Never thought I would raise such children. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- E Mael wrote: -Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: No no. They are the creation of Capitalists with the license from government. Jeez guys, can't you get over this government as bogeyman shit? It positively ruins your thinking abilities. Joshua2 pretty kewl huh josh; when someone actually mistakes you as an adult with a half a wit and actually responds to you as if you were actually somebody. all you have to to is to sit back and laugh when they do. how silly of these people to actually think the guv is a boogyman, when we know that the boogyman is you, with your granpas taste in politics and your granmas emotional patriotic 'nobody can change her mind' senile rant. you have soo much to teach all of us. maybe we should all stop posting and just listen to you. you are a real miracle worker; you have nothing whatsoever to offer and yet you give so much. i think we ought to inform the polish pope that we have a real saint in our midst. do you know the pope? are you polish? whether you are or not, you will always be to me. lmao at you Who let you out of the bathroom? Find your tweezers and go back to doing what you do best. J2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- Jim Norman wrote: -Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: Ah, here is the crux of the problem. This person, and and capitalists in general would like everyone to take on their belief system. And likeYou don't? Why are you trying to make everybody think as you do? About 30% of the people writing to this list are in my observation Libertarian or Libertarian leaning. About another 20% are conservative. And I can't tell about how many Liberals. The one thing they all have in common, is that they are doing well in this kind of economy and would complain or criticize every other Red Herring, and emotional distraction available. This is a narrow group which can afford the equipment and the time, and has the education to appreciate the Net. Few have the guts to admit that at the bottom of the real conspiracies lies the acquisition of huge amounts of money. Capitalism is the system of choice because it is the system devised and incrementally perfected by the rich over many hundreds of years to transfer wealth from the masses to the elites. By making it available to the middle class, they have coopted the very people whose wealth they are rerouting. The middle class is so happy to emulate their elites in morals and life style, that they would rather avoid looking at the situation honestly. The elites give them every opportunity and tool with which to delude themselves. Luxuries and self stupefaction through drugs and media at all levels. These people are 1 month's pay away from seeing the economy in an entirely different should they loose their job or profits. The only honest utterance from the Clinton Experience is " it's the economy stupid." I'm not trying to make anyone think like me. I don't know you and I don't give a shit what you think. But there are people who are trying to figure out what is happening to their world and the bullshit flies thick and heavy around here. I put out my observations for anyone to compare to reality. If I fail to match the real world I'm full of shit. If your view fails to match the real world, you are full of shit. Isn't that fair? Individualism, individual rights, and the ever so lovely PROPERTY IS PRIOR TO LAW. this is what our country was built on! That's my point exactly! We are agreed upon the root ( rad ) of the problems that plague us. Very astute of you. These twisted apostles of greed and arrogant stupidity are just simply selfish bastards inventing justifications for their sorry assed selves. Sounds like you're mad because you don't have any. I have enough. More than many. I am solidly middle class. I hate being a cash cow for the rich. Who in their right mind would claim that " property is prior to law?" Not only isn't this factual in all of human evolution, but it's a pathetic indication of a warped and sick personality. Who in their right, or left, mind would claim that "property is NOT prior to law?" Not only isn't this factual in all of human evolution, but it's a pathetic indication of a warped and sick personality. JN Property is a legal creation. That concept could only come into being with agricultural surpluses. That came about 12000 years ago as evidenced by cities like Jericho and some in India. Cities needed laws for regulating themselves do to the complexity of a dense population. Nomadic societies were generally communal. Those societies developed communalism as the economic tool of survival. Prior to that the issues were territory and possessions. The only " right " pertaining to territory and possessions was the right of might. When you strip away the superficial legalisms, it still comes down to that. Contracts, deeds, promissory notes, etc. only work as long as ALL of society agrees to play the game. When circumstances change we revert back to the natural laws of might makes right, and quantity ( of non property owners ) is mightier than property rights. That's the REAL bottom lime. When enough wealth is monopolized by the most aggressive thieves in the society, they must monopolize the govt in order to get the govt to protect their property. Hence, property laws which protect property. ( Russia, USA, are obvious examples.) I find it funny that the same people who scoff at human rights take individual rights so much more seriously. They positively pee in their pants when anybody questions the validity of property rights or does not assign the same reverence to the concept as they do. There is no reason to honor property rights if you don't own property. And everyone can't own property if it keeps concentrating in the hands of the rich. There are thousands of homeless, millions of renters, and after the next economic downturn, millions of ex-property owners. What kind of rights do you think they will be pushing ? Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- Ric Carter wrote: T'ain't so. Capitalism is about acquiring and manipulating CAPITAL, about owning and controlling the means of production of material goods. Capitalism is thus about POWER. In any non-trivial society, many conflicting interests will contend for power, resources, influence; a representative gov't serves as the lubrication between those interest, a way for the social "machinery" to run without seizing-up and melting-down. How well any specific gov't institutions serves that purpose, is debatable. MJ: Capitalism is the social system based upon private ownership of the means of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all property is privately owned. Ric Carter wrote: What is the basis for this statement? MJ: Reality? AAHHH ha ha ha ha ha ha. Is this guy funny or what? God bless Libertarians. They bring humor to the world. Just a few lines down Mr.Shecky Johnson says... snip Ric Carter wrote: Can you name any viable society that hasn't regulated commerce? MJ: Nope, hence the absence of a capitalist society in all of history. And THIS constitutes reality in Shecky Johnson's world view. Good one Sheck. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: -Caveat Lector- Ah, here is the crux of the problem. This person, and and capitalists in general would like everyone to take on their belief system. Individualism, individual rights, and the ever so lovely PROPERTY IS PRIOR TO LAW. These twisted apostles of greed and arrogant stupidity are just simply selfish bastards inventing justifications for their sorry assed selves. Who in their right mind would claim that " property is prior to law?" Not only isn't this factual in all of human evolution, but it's a pathetic indication of a warped and sick personality. Long before governments and law existed men and women gathered or killed food to eat. Was this food not their property? No. It was food. They created tools which made their efforts more efficient. Were these tools not the property of their creators? No. They were possessions. Later they planted and cared for certain plants which they found they preferred over others. Were these not then their property? It was in order to protect these properties from those who simply stole these creations from their creators that the banding together of people originated. What is this mish-mash? People (?) banded together for warmth and mutual protection even before they were people. What you are describing above is the A.O.P.L. the Association Of Paranoid Landlords. This was the origin of government and law. And, in fact, it seems that early written records indicate that law preceded government. At least that seems to me to be what is indicated by the early books of the bible. Yeah, there is a good source for historical reference. Howard Davis Property is a legal invention. Like the corporation. It came into existence to legitimize and institutionalize the holdings of the rich. Property is an agreed upon fiction. Especially when it is in the form of land. How can you own something that was here before you and will be here after you. It is the state that insures ownership. If there is no state, then you need to command force to protect your property. Property rights are flimsy at best. Human rights and property rights often come into conflict where the property owners userp the power of State. Then comes revolution and property is redistributed or redefined. Funny how Libertarians and Conservatives and capitalists in general see these legal inventions as natural rights. There is nothing natural about lawyer reality. It's always just a temporary condition. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: -Caveat Lector- Ric Carter wrote: Does the concept of the primacy of "individual rights" preclude any individuals from joining in free association, incorporating as groups to engage in commercial, charitable, governmental or other activities? Do corporations [public or private] have more, equal or less rights than individuals? Corporations do not have individual rights nor should they. They are a creation of government and thus should be regulated. No no. They are the creation of Capitalists with the license from government. Jeez guys, can't you get over this government as bogeyman shit? It positively ruins your thinking abilities. Joshua2 Individuals are not an artificial entity and should not be regulated in a free society. It was the 14th amendment which gave corporations similar rights as individuals (and vice versa). Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- [EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes: No no. They are the creation of Capitalists with the license from government. Jeez guys, can't you get over this government as bogeyman shit? It positively ruins your thinking abilities. Joshua2 pretty kewl huh josh; when someone actually mistakes you as an adult with a half a wit and actually responds to you as if you were actually somebody. all you have to to is to sit back and laugh when they do. how silly of these people to actually think the guv is a boogyman, when we know that the boogyman is you, with your granpas taste in politics and your granmas emotional patriotic 'nobody can change her mind' senile rant. you have soo much to teach all of us. maybe we should all stop posting and just listen to you. you are a real miracle worker; you have nothing whatsoever to offer and yet you give so much. i think we ought to inform the polish pope that we have a real saint in our midst. do you know the pope? are you polish? whether you are or not, you will always be to me. lmao at you DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- Ric Carter wrote: T'ain't so. Capitalism is about acquiring and manipulating CAPITAL, about owning and controlling the means of production of material goods. Capitalism is thus about POWER. In any non-trivial society, many conflicting interests will contend for power, resources, influence; a representative gov't serves as the lubrication between those interest, a way for the social "machinery" to run without seizing-up and melting-down. How well any specific gov't institutions serves that purpose, is debatable. MJ: Capitalism is the social system based upon private ownership of the means of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all property is privately owned. Ric Carter wrote: What is the basis for this statement? MJ: Reality? Ric Carter wrote: If the US founders accepted this view ["completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy"], why did they empower Congress to regulate commerce? MJ: To ensure free trade between the several States. Ric Carter wrote: Can you name any viable society that hasn't regulated commerce? MJ: Nope, hence the absence of a capitalist society in all of history. Ric Carter wrote: Doesn't unregulated commerce lead to monopoly/cartel and/or drug-lord-style competition? [I use 'commerce' as a shorthand term for any commercial activity.] MJ: Two types of monopoly: Coercive requires government; Natural which is desired but has never existed. As long as ENTRY into the marketplace is unencumbered, no monopoly is possible. It is government and their 'tinkering' which creates advantage to some over others and prevents access. MJ: But the separation of the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights. Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the doctrine of individual rights. This means that capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the rights of others. As demonstrated in the previous example no government intervention is required; but more specifically, once the government steps in, capitalism ceases. Ric Carter wrote: Does the concept of the primacy of "individual rights" preclude any individuals from joining in free association, incorporating as groups to engage in commercial, charitable, governmental or other activities? MJ: Within the Natural Rights Ideal [see the Declaration of Independence], a group can posses no ADDITIONAL rights than each of its members. Ric Carter wrote: Do corporations [public or private] have more, equal or less rights than individuals? MJ: A Corporation is an entity created by the Government and as such has the FORCE of government to ensure its privileges. Ric Carter wrote: In a representative democracy, who is the protector of individual and corporate rights? MJ: In a democracy, there is no 'protection of individual rights' as everything is subject to the whim of the majority. The US was envisioned and Constitutionalized as a Representative Republic which granted specific functions to its government -- all of which serve the legitimate functions of government. Ric Carter wrote: Shall a society form and empower a gov't to represent the varied interests of members of that society, to mediate between conflicting interests, to adjudge and protect the rights of those members? Isn't this what the US Constitution is about? MJ: No. The US Government was to 'mediate' between the several States and other nations ... ensuring protection of all from force and fraud (see the individual powers in Article I, Section 8). Ric Carter wrote: IMHO proclaiming that individuals have absolute rights over groups is as bogus and dangerous as proclaiming that groups have absolute rights over individuals. A viable, vibrant society requires mechanisms for balancing the interests/rights/responsibilities of all its members, individuals and groups alike. MJ: An individual [see the DoI] has a right to his own life. All other rights are borne from this basic ideal. For a government to provide this 'balance' between individual rights and groups of individuals' rights serves only to provide some with a legislated advantage over others. Ric Carter wrote: The mechanisms: gov't law. Yup, this equates to POWER. Strip our representative gov't of power, and where will it flow? Into which nonrepresentative institutions would you invest power? Do private, commercial, corporate boards of directors consider your interests when making their plans? Should they? MJ: Government derives its legitimate functions as a collective application of an individual's right to his own
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: Ah, here is the crux of the problem. This person, and and capitalists in general would like everyone to take on their belief system. Individualism, individual rights, and the ever so lovely PROPERTY IS PRIOR TO LAW. These twisted apostles of greed and arrogant stupidity are just simply selfish bastards inventing justifications for their sorry assed selves. Who in their right mind would claim that " property is prior to law?" Not only isn't this factual in all of human evolution, but it's a pathetic indication of a warped and sick personality. Every man has a property in his own person. This nobody has any right to but himself. The labor of his body and the work of his hands are properly his. -- John Locke, 1690 Did Man precede Government? Regard$, --MJ He that judges without informing himself to the utmost that he is capable, cannot acquit himself of judging amiss. --John Locke, 1690 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- Scott Brown wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- MJ: I contract with you ... I pay you $20, you paint my front porch. THIS is capitalism. Where is the state you were requiring? Das GOAT wrote: First off, it's NOT capitalism. It's simply an economic exchange -- "barter," mediated by money, i.e., a transferable "right" to goods at value, "earned" by labor, traded for labor. Now, if you contracted with me to paint your front porch, it cost me $20 in labor and materials to do it, and you only paid me $10 --making MONEY "FOR NOTHING," but your PROFIT of $10 only paid for by MY loss-- THAT would be capitalism. MJ: No force here only your stupidity in contracting without concern for you benefit -- unless of course it was your intention for charity. Serious flaw here buddy. Even stupid people have the right not to be ripped off by sharpsters. Capitalism is the social system based upon private ownership of the means of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all property is privately owned. It's not a social system, but an economic system. It also happens to be an economic system that rots the social system it coexists with. This country is a good example of that. Post communist Russia is an even better example of that. Crime and corruption are the indicators of rot in a social system. Need I say more? But the separation of the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights. Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the doctrine of individual rights. This means that capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the rights of others. So then it is OK in your opinion to choose an economic system other than capitalism if enough of us use our individual rights to do so. Isn't that correct? And if that should happen, all you hard core rugged individualists would be free to leave this country and move to Russia where true Capitalism flourishes. Have a nice trip. Dress warmly, and don't forget your gun. Bon Voyage mon ami, Joshua2 I already warned you guys once. I guess I have to hand out towels for all the mental masturbators. Lookey there, you have gone and made a mess. We shall soon see who among us is masturbating. It won't be a pleasant sight. I have heard rumors that Ayn Rand is the most popular centerfold among degenerate capitalists. Fully clothed. I just don't get it. Oh the humanity...! J2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-05-05 07:41:57 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Every man has a property in his own person. This nobody has any right to but himself. The labor of his body and the work of his hands are properly his. -- John Locke, 1690 I'm waiting for someone to claim that the "property" owned by Capitalists is "theirs" by virtue of being "the work of their own hands." Give me one example of Capital Assets --factories, industrial machinery, etc-- that was not secured with BORROWED money and paid off by profits from the work of OTHER PEOPLE's hands, i.e., labor which the Capitalist didn't perform. Can Capitalism exist without BANKS and the Stock Market? DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-05-05 07:51:51 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We shall soon see who among us is masturbating. It won't be a pleasant sight. I have heard rumors that Ayn Rand is the most popular centerfold among degenerate capitalists. Fully clothed. I just don't get it. Be sure to see "The Passion of Ayn Rand" coming to cable TV soon. It demonstrates that her political ideal --"rational selifishness"-- when translated into the interpersonal sphere gave her the morals of an alleycat. Apparently Bill Clinton is an Objectivist ... DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: Ah, here is the crux of the problem. This person, and and capitalists in general would like everyone to take on their belief system. And likeYou don't? Why are you trying to make everybody think as you do? Individualism, individual rights, and the ever so lovely PROPERTY IS PRIOR TO LAW. this is what our country was built on! These twisted apostles of greed and arrogant stupidity are just simply selfish bastards inventing justifications for their sorry assed selves. Sounds like you're mad because you don't have any. Who in their right mind would claim that " property is prior to law?" Not only isn't this factual in all of human evolution, but it's a pathetic indication of a warped and sick personality. Who in their right, or left, mind would claim that "property is NOT prior to law?" Not only isn't this factual in all of human evolution, but it's a pathetic indication of a warped and sick personality. JN DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- MJ: Every man has a property in his own person. This nobody has any right to but himself. The labor of his body and the work of his hands are properly his. -- John Locke, 1690 Das GOAT wrote: I'm waiting for someone to claim that the "property" owned by Capitalists is "theirs" by virtue of being "the work of their own hands." MJ: Any 'person's' property is theirs whether by THEIR exchanges or through the GIFTS of others. I am not certain WHAT you are attempting above, could you elaborate? Das GOAT wrote: Give me one example of Capital Assets --factories, industrial machinery, etc-- that was not secured with BORROWED money and paid off by profits from the work of OTHER PEOPLE's hands, i.e., labor which the Capitalist didn't perform. MJ: Why should anyone be prohibited to 'dispose' or 'invest' their earnings in whatever manner THEY desire? Why should anyone be prohibited from entering a contract to provide x for y? Das GOAT wrote: Can Capitalism exist without BANKS and the Stock Market? MJ: Yes. Regard$, --MJ Laissez faire does not mean: Let soulless mechanical forces operate. It means: Let each individual choose how he wants to cooperate in the social division of labor; let the consumers determine what the entrepreneurs should produce. Planning means: Let the government alone choose and enforce its rulings by the apparatus of coercison and compulsion. -- Ludgwig von Mises DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- MJ: I contract with you ... I pay you $20, you paint my front porch. THIS is capitalism. Where is the state you were requiring? Das GOAT wrote: First off, it's NOT capitalism. It's simply an economic exchange -- "barter," mediated by money, i.e., a transferable "right" to goods at value, "earned" by labor, traded for labor. Now, if you contracted with me to paint your front porch, it cost me $20 in labor and materials to do it, and you only paid me $10 --making MONEY "FOR NOTHING," but your PROFIT of $10 only paid for by MY loss-- THAT would be capitalism. MJ: No force here only your stupidity in contracting without concern for you benefit -- unless of course it was your intention for charity. Serious flaw here buddy. Even stupid people have the right not to be ripped off by sharpsters. Capitalism is the social system based upon private ownership of the means of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all property is privately owned. It's not a social system, but an economic system. It also happens to be an economic system that rots the social system it coexists with. This country is a good example of that. Post communist Russia is an even better example of that. Crime and corruption are the indicators of rot in a social system. Need I say more? But the separation of the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights. Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the doctrine of individual rights. This means that capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the rights of others. So then it is OK in your opinion to choose an economic system other than capitalism if enough of us use our individual rights to do so. Isn't that correct? And if that should happen, all you hard core rugged individualists would be free to leave this country and move to Russia where true Capitalism flourishes. Have a nice trip. Dress warmly, and don't forget your gun. Bon Voyage mon ami, Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the doctrine of individual rights. This means that capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the rights of others. As demonstrated in the previous example no government intervention is required; but more specifically, once the government steps in, capitalism ceases. Regard$, --MJ Property is prior to law; the sole function of the law is to safeguard the right to property wherever it exists, wherever it is formed, in whatever manner the worker produces it, whether individually or in association, provided that he respects the rights of others. -- Frederic Bastiat Ah, here is the crux of the problem. This person, and and capitalists in general would like everyone to take on their belief system. Individualism, individual rights, and the ever so lovely PROPERTY IS PRIOR TO LAW. These twisted apostles of greed and arrogant stupidity are just simply selfish bastards inventing justifications for their sorry assed selves. Who in their right mind would claim that " property is prior to law?" Not only isn't this factual in all of human evolution, but it's a pathetic indication of a warped and sick personality. Property is not prior to law but only exists because your society allows it to exist. The moment you have too much property and others don't have enough for sustenance, you will learn what is meant by " eat the rich." If you don't think this is true, I suggest you bone up on the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Cuban Revolution, etc. Capitalism can not work because no society or economy is sustainable if it's run by capitalists. Pretty soon they monopolize everything they think is valuable or worthwhile. Like the businesses that are most profitable, and whatever political system is extant. When the nation state, even the super state, becomes too small for their wealth, greed, and lust for power to maintain that wealth, they simply decide to do away with the nation state, despite the fact that the rest of us are not interested in doing so. It's interesting how Libertarians, Conservatives, and Liberals, get their bowels in an uproar about all the kinds of issues that manifest in a degenerate and declining civilization like the West is, but somehow manage to overlook the rotten root ( rad ) of the problems. Each group easily sees the bullshit and hypocrisy in the others but not in themselves. All the worst aspects of this society traces directly to the economic system that allows just about everything as long as someone makes a profit. It's the economy stupid. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- nurev [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- "M.A. Johnson" wrote: -Caveat Lector- MJ: I contract with you ... I pay you $20, you paint my front porch. THIS is capitalism. Where is the state you were requiring? Das GOAT wrote: First off, it's NOT capitalism. It's simply an economic exchange -- "barter," mediated by money, i.e., a transferable "right" to goods at value, "earned" by labor, traded for labor. Now, if you contracted with me to paint your front porch, it cost me $20 in labor and materials to do it, and you only paid me $10 --making MONEY "FOR NOTHING," but your PROFIT of $10 only paid for by MY loss-- THAT would be capitalism. MJ: No force here only your stupidity in contracting without concern for you benefit -- unless of course it was your intention for charity. Serious flaw here buddy. Even stupid people have the right not to be ripped off by sharpsters. Capitalism is the social system based upon private ownership of the means of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all property is privately owned. It's not a social system, but an economic system. It also happens to be an economic system that rots the social system it coexists with. This country is a good example of that. Post communist Russia is an even better example of that. Crime and corruption are the indicators of rot in a social system. Need I say more? But the separation of the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights. Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the doctrine of individual rights. This means that capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the rights of others. So then it is OK in your opinion to choose an economic system other than capitalism if enough of us use our individual rights to do so. Isn't that correct? And if that should happen, all you hard core rugged individualists would be free to leave this country and move to Russia where true Capitalism flourishes. Have a nice trip. Dress warmly, and don't forget your gun. Bon Voyage mon ami, Joshua2 I already warned you guys once. I guess I have to hand out towels for all the mental masturbators. Lookey there, you have gone and made a mess. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- Ric Carter wrote: Does the concept of the primacy of "individual rights" preclude any individuals from joining in free association, incorporating as groups to engage in commercial, charitable, governmental or other activities? Do corporations [public or private] have more, equal or less rights than individuals? Corporations do not have individual rights nor should they. They are a creation of government and thus should be regulated. Individuals are not an artificial entity and should not be regulated in a free society. It was the 14th amendment which gave corporations similar rights as individuals (and vice versa). Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Howard R. Davis III [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ric Carter wrote: Does the concept of the primacy of "individual rights" preclude any individuals from joining in free association, incorporating as groups to engage in commercial, charitable, governmental or other activities? Do corporations [public or private] have more, equal or less rights than individuals? Corporations do not have individual rights nor should they. They are a creation of government and thus should be regulated. Individuals are not an artificial entity and should not be regulated in a free society. It was the 14th amendment which gave corporations similar rights as individuals (and vice versa). Commercial corporations preceded the existence of our federal gov't by a century or two, originating in Holland England in the 16th 17th centuries. A corporation is merely an association recognized as a legal entity, organized under specific laws rather than being granted a charter by a sovereign. Corporations may be commercial [such as a business], noncommercial [such as a charity], political [such as a party], govern- mental [such as a city], etc. Nations of revolutionary origin are self- constituted, rather than incorporated or chartered, but serve the same purpose as any other incorporated/chartered/constituted body - to provide certain services, services that individuals cannot obtain individually. The rights, privileges, and obligations of any corporation or individual are determined by the society in which they reside, and may be codified as laws, or exist more informally as mores, customs, morals, etc. Most societies establish [incorporate] governmental bodies as surrogates for the society as a whole. A favorite pastime of people is forming new govt's; when the US west was settled, as soon as more than a handful of people lived in an area, they'd hold town meetings, organize a gov't, choose officers, and proceed to the fun of political squabbling. It's one of the great entertainments of humanity, almost as much fun as war. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- MJ: I contract with you ... I pay you $20, you paint my front porch. THIS is capitalism. Where is the state you were requiring? Das GOAT wrote: First off, it's NOT capitalism. It's simply an economic exchange -- "barter," mediated by money, i.e., a transferable "right" to goods at value, "earned" by labor, traded for labor. Now, if you contracted with me to paint your front porch, it cost me $20 in labor and materials to do it, and you only paid me $10 --making MONEY "FOR NOTHING," but your PROFIT of $10 only paid for by MY loss-- THAT would be capitalism. MJ: No force here only your stupidity in contracting without concern for you benefit -- unless of course it was your intention for charity. Capitalism is the social system based upon private ownership of the means of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all property is privately owned. But the separation of the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights. Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the doctrine of individual rights. This means that capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the rights of others. Das GOAT wrote: Well, you just defrauded and robbed me, breaching our contract -- and contracts are a matter of "law," enforceable by the State through its legal system. snip MJ: You freely entered into the contract to provide the service in which that contract was fulfilled (see example above). No fraud or force, your strawman fallacy. Regard$, --MJ A totalitarian state thrives on propaganda, and there is no more effective way to limit thought than to control the language itself. By changing definitions of words through continual association, any serious discussion involving the concepts that the words represents becomes hopelessly muddled. The words "democracy," "hate" and "racism" immediately comes to mind. -- Thomas Sowell DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- Ric Carter wrote: Meanwhile, all the previous writers in this thread seem to assume Capitalism is about fee-for-service, then argue whether a State has a role in resolving disputes between contractor and contractee. MJ: Non sequitur, strawman ... proving this person cannot reason logically. Ric Carter wrote: T'ain't so. Capitalism is about acquiring and manipulating CAPITAL, about owning and controlling the means of production of material goods. Capitalism is thus about POWER. In any non-trivial society, many conflicting interests will contend for power, resources, influence; a representative gov't serves as the lubrication between those interest, a way for the social "machinery" to run without seizing-up and melting-down. How well any specific gov't institutions serves that purpose, is debatable. Capitalism is the social system based upon private ownership of the means of production which entails a completely uncontrolled and unregulated economy where all property is privately owned. But the separation of the state and the economy is not a primary, it is only an aspect of the premise that capitalism is based upon: individual rights. Capitalism is the only politico-economic system based on the doctrine of individual rights. This means that capitalism recognizes that each and every person is the owner of his own life, and has the right to live his life in any manner he chooses as long as he does not violate the rights of others. As demonstrated in the previous example no government intervention is required; but more specifically, once the government steps in, capitalism ceases. Regard$, --MJ Property is prior to law; the sole function of the law is to safeguard the right to property wherever it exists, wherever it is formed, in whatever manner the worker produces it, whether individually or in association, provided that he respects the rights of others. -- Frederic Bastiat DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- This Ben Ladin or whatever his name is; he is a capitalist.his father was a contractor.and this is allegedly where he got his millions of dollars. Now again, who is kidding who.what ever happened to him; he is still on this list (just kidding). Colleen Tlhe point here seems to be, this guy (Bennie for short) knows how to settle a dispute, I am told. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- "The idea of 'free contract' between the potentate and his starving subject is a sick joke..." http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/interviews/9612-anarchism.html Interview: "Noam Chomsky on Anarchism" by Tom Lane, December 23, 1996 snip 5. Many "anarcho-capitalists" claim that anarchism means the freedom to do what you want with your property and engage in free contract with others. Is capitalism in any way compatible with anarchism as you see it? Anarcho-capitalism, in my opinion, is a doctrinal system which, if ever implemented, would lead to forms of tyranny and oppression that have few counterparts in human history. There isn't the slightest possibility that its (in my view, horrendous) ideas would be implemented, because they would quickly destroy any society that made this colossal error. The idea of "free contract" between the potentate and his starving subject is a sick joke, perhaps worth some moments in an academic seminar exploring the consequences of (in my view, absurd) ideas, but nowhere else. I should add, however, that I find myself in substantial agreement with people who consider themselves anarcho-capitalists on a whole range of issues; and for some years, was able to write only in their journals. And I also admire their commitment to rationality -- which is rare -- though I do not think they see the consequences of the doctrines they espouse, or their profound moral failings. The following re-post is worth re-pondering as well http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9812DL=ctrlD=0P=32190 Subject: Re: [CTRL] vs. socialism, vs. capitalism, what now? Date:Sat, 26 Dec 1998 17:12:13 EST From:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Caveat Lector- In a message dated 12/26/98 3:49:36 AM, MJ wrote: Name one business one may participate (legally) which is devoid of government. This has been an interesting discussion. I doubt we're going to find ourselves all simultaneously agreeing to one single perfect economic solution anytime soon, but I think it's very important to discuss this type of thing along with the various other abuses and manipulations of power discussed on CTRL. Disagreements aside, how can we expect to actually have a positive impact on the status quo unless we mentally hack the system, as well as our own preconceptions? When I said "slightly mixed," I wasn't trying to deny that we live in Babylon, and that we cannot escape Babylon's grip (Babylon as a metaphorical representation of the United States). You cannot operate a "business" of any substantial sort without entangling yourself with the government, and you cannot gain employment legally without paying taxes, which go to support all sorts of nasty stuff that people generally wouldn't approve of if they realized what was actually going on. The question is, are you one of the few who the system is built to serve, or are you one of the rabble which the system feeds upon? I guess that's what I meant by "slightly mixed," in the sense (quoth Noam Chomsky) that we have in effect a form of state socialism for the rich, with free markets reserved for the poor. Those who are able to claw their way out of the free market and gain entry to the "top of the pyramid club" will, on the way, learn all the bloodthirsty tricks necessary to maintain their prosperous new positions. The social rot begins to smell like roses; decay becomes new growth; crisis becomes opportunity. Corporate execs draw $250,000 paychecks with $100,000 bonuses on a bad year (and blow every dime of it, saving surprisingly little), while the kids in the public housing project down the road have to put plywood over their windows because all the glass has been broken out. But the system (any mass system) is perpetuated by building a conceptual "box" (laws, regulations, social controls, etc.), then tricking and/or forcing as many people as possible to stay within the box. Automatically the perpetuation of this system becomes its primary occupation; that's a given. There is no system that can be built which will be able to withstand the probing of those who seek to use it to their own advantage. Maybe the revolution will come one day, but even if it did, would anything new really come along? The real revolution is within each of us -- the systematic individual process of eliminating one's own contradictions, false values and preconceptions. We have been conditioned since birth in a rancid sea of lies, contradictory messages, dead ends, and greed-inspired motivations. We must deprogram ourselves, dig deep into our own souls, and determine what exactly it is we want to do in these 70-some-odd years that most of us are given on this earth. Only when we have cleansed ourselves of
Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- "Howard R. Davis III" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- Jeff Russo wrote: -Caveat Lector- --- "M.A. Johnson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: You guys are hilarious. Capitalism can not exist without the State. MJ: I contract with you ... I pay you $20, you paint my front porch. THIS is capitalism. Where is the state you were requiring? I contract with you... I pay you $20. You do NOT paint my porch. I now have two options: 1) hunt you down and get my money back or kill you. 2) Use some sort of legal recourse, provided by the state, to solve this dispute. A smoothly functioning Capitalist economy needs some sort of judicial system to ensure enforcement of contracts and settle disputes. This, by the way, is just about ALL you need from the state. But the Wise folks in Washington have provided us with SO much more! :) === Actually there is a third option. Belong to an organization which guarantees contracts not by force by by shunning. That is, if a person fails to fulfill his contract he would be black balled by the organization. The threat of subsequent loss of income (and reputation) would probably have as much effect as our present system which only seems intent on joining the thief in his thievery. Howard Davis Hey, you guys are gonna have to clean all that stuff up you know. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system]
-Caveat Lector- - Original Message - From: Scott Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] everything snipped Hey, you guys are gonna have to clean all that stuff up you know. Hey, it's easy. Meanwhile, all the previous writers in this thread seem to assume Capitalism is about fee-for-service, then argue whether a State has a role in resolving disputes between contractor and contractee. T'ain't so. Capitalism is about acquiring and manipulating CAPITAL, about owning and controlling the means of production of material goods. Capitalism is thus about POWER. In any non-trivial society, many conflicting interests will contend for power, resources, influence; a representative gov't serves as the lubrication between those interest, a way for the social "machinery" to run without seizing-up and melting-down. How well any specific gov't institutions serves that purpose, is debatable. Take it from there. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- "Howard R. Davis III" wrote: -Caveat Lector- Lloyd Miller wrote: -Caveat Lector- Yes, I think that was the point I was making. But, remember America was Statist from the Get Go via the Federalists. Esp. Alexander Hamilton's advocacy of a Central Bank...ie, the First Bank of the United States. Laissez-faire is an ideal, not something that has ever been even approximately acheived. Well, not exactly from the "Get Go". There were a few years before the Constitution was ratified when the US was under the Articles of Confederation. This was a purposely weak confederation. There were over a dozen "presidents" during this time. Their main function was moderating congressional debates, etc. However, there were some problems, especially with money. It may have been a purposeful conspiracy to keep the system from working or there may have been some real problems. At any rate that was the real driving force for federation (originally the Constitutional Convention wasn't - they were only supposed to change a few things in the Articles). Afterwards things did get a lot better financially. Howard Davis You guys are hilarious. Capitalism can not exist without the State. It's not because of any flaw, it's because capitalism is inherently self destructive ( not to mention destructive to everything else it touches). Capitalism NEEDS the State to keep it alive and to keep capitalists from getting their throats cut by those being exploited. Your nonsense about a "pure" Laissez-faire as an ideal is about as silly as virgin births and unicorns. This is what makes Libertarians appear moronic. Joshua2 DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: You guys are hilarious. Capitalism can not exist without the State. MJ: I contract with you ... I pay you $20, you paint my front porch. THIS is capitalism. Where is the state you were requiring? Capitalism requires the State to be absent ... once it rears its head into the 'bargain' one no longer has capitalism, but some sort of mixed-economy. Regard$, --MJ Capital is a result of labor, and is used by labor to assist it in further production. Labor is the active and initial force, and labor is therefore the employer of capital. -- Henry George DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- --- "M.A. Johnson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: You guys are hilarious. Capitalism can not exist without the State. MJ: I contract with you ... I pay you $20, you paint my front porch. THIS is capitalism. Where is the state you were requiring? I contract with you... I pay you $20. You do NOT paint my porch. I now have two options: 1) hunt you down and get my money back or kill you. 2) Use some sort of legal recourse, provided by the state, to solve this dispute. A smoothly functioning Capitalist economy needs some sort of judicial system to ensure enforcement of contracts and settle disputes. This, by the way, is just about ALL you need from the state. But the Wise folks in Washington have provided us with SO much more! :) === Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- George Bernard Shaw _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- Jeff Russo wrote: I contract with you... I pay you $20. You do NOT paint my porch. I now have two options: 1) hunt you down and get my money back or kill you. 2) Use some sort of legal recourse, provided by the state, to solve this dispute. MJ: A. I do not 'pay' until the job is completed. :) B. A 'private' mediator does just as well as a State system. The 'State' in your example does NOT factor into the exchange, which is what is required for Capitalism. When the painter has to be licensed it is no longer capitalism. It is then a mixed system. Regard$, --MJ The meaning of economic freedom is this: that the individual is in a position to choose the way in which he wants to integrate himself into the totality of society. -- Ludwig von Mises DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- My goodness.pay the $20.00.. Colleen DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- Jeff Russo wrote: I contract with you... I pay you $20. You do NOT paint my porch. I now have two options: 1) hunt you down and get my money back or kill you. 2) Use some sort of legal recourse, provided by the state, to solve this dispute. MJ: A. I do not 'pay' until the job is completed. :) B. A 'private' mediator does just as well as a State system. If a private system that performed the tasks of the judicial system was worked out, fine. The 'State' in your example does NOT factor into the exchange, which is what is required for Capitalism. When the painter has to be licensed it is no longer capitalism. It is then a mixed system. I'm just as opposed to mandatory licensing as you are. -- jmr === Jeff Russo [EMAIL PROTECTED] - "The power of accurate observation is often called cynicism by those who have not got it." -- George Bernard Shaw _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- In a message dated 99-05-01 13:03:50 EDT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: MJ: I contract with you ... I pay you $20, you paint my front porch. THIS is capitalism. Where is the state you were requiring? First off, it's NOT capitalism. It's simply an economic exchange -- "barter," mediated by money, i.e., a transferable "right" to goods at value, "earned" by labor, traded for labor. Now, if you contracted with me to paint your front porch, it cost me $20 in labor and materials to do it, and you only paid me $10 --making MONEY "FOR NOTHING," but your PROFIT of $10 only paid for by MY loss-- THAT would be capitalism. So, where does the State come in? Well, you just defrauded and robbed me, breaching our contract -- and contracts are a matter of "law," enforceable by the State through its legal system. So I take you to court, argue my case against you, and appeal to the judge to fulfill his legal obligation under the laws of the State to right this "wrong," i.e., inequity, a "crime" (injustice) in the economic exchange. Unfortunately, YOU, in effect, spend $5 of the $10 which you style from me to hire a sophisticated con man called a "lawyer," who argues speciously that the crime which his client committed was not "really" a crime, and who by any means necessary --lying, destroying evidence, intimidating witnesses, etc-- succeeds in swaying the judge (who's indebted to you anyway, for his own job!) to decide AGAINST me, i.e., AGAINST the "right" being asserted by me. Rather than JUSTICE prevailing and you paying me another $10 to bring my payment for work done back to the agreed-upon $20, thereby restoring equity, the ironic result of the State's intervention is that, even after being cheated by you, "the law" rules that I OWE YOU, and I have to pay YOUR lawyer, YOUR judge, etc., to PROTECT your "PROFIT." Now, THAT's capitalism! DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- And this gentlemen, is why you never steal anything small.. Be like the big guysThink Big.. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- Jeff Russo wrote: -Caveat Lector- --- "M.A. Johnson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Caveat Lector- nurev wrote: You guys are hilarious. Capitalism can not exist without the State. MJ: I contract with you ... I pay you $20, you paint my front porch. THIS is capitalism. Where is the state you were requiring? I contract with you... I pay you $20. You do NOT paint my porch. I now have two options: 1) hunt you down and get my money back or kill you. 2) Use some sort of legal recourse, provided by the state, to solve this dispute. A smoothly functioning Capitalist economy needs some sort of judicial system to ensure enforcement of contracts and settle disputes. This, by the way, is just about ALL you need from the state. But the Wise folks in Washington have provided us with SO much more! :) === Actually there is a third option. Belong to an organization which guarantees contracts not by force by by shunning. That is, if a person fails to fulfill his contract he would be black balled by the organization. The threat of subsequent loss of income (and reputation) would probably have as much effect as our present system which only seems intent on joining the thief in his thievery. Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- Lloyd Miller wrote: -Caveat Lector- Yes, I think that was the point I was making. But, remember America was Statist from the Get Go via the Federalists. Esp. Alexander Hamilton's advocacy of a Central Bank...ie, the First Bank of the United States. Laissez-faire is an ideal, not something that has ever been even approximately acheived. Well, not exactly from the "Get Go". There were a few years before the Constitution was ratified when the US was under the Articles of Confederation. This was a purposely weak confederation. There were over a dozen "presidents" during this time. Their main function was moderating congressional debates, etc. However, there were some problems, especially with money. It may have been a purposeful conspiracy to keep the system from working or there may have been some real problems. At any rate that was the real driving force for federation (originally the Constitutional Convention wasn't - they were only supposed to change a few things in the Articles). Afterwards things did get a lot better financially. Howard Davis DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- Yes, I think that was the point I was making. But, remember America was Statist from the Get Go via the Federalists. Esp. Alexander Hamilton's advocacy of a Central Bank...ie, the First Bank of the United States. Laissez-faire is an ideal, not something that has ever been even approximately acheived. *** Lloyd Miller, Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273, Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for the entire political-ideological spectrum. Quarterly journal, book sales, rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly Up-date Lists E-text Archive of research, intelligence, catalogs, resources. To Discuss Ideas: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://msen.com/~lloyd/ For Ordering Info Free Catalog: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://a-albionic.com/formaddress.html For Discussion List: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] text in body: subscribe prj [EMAIL PROTECTED] **FREE RARE BOOK SEARCH: http://a-albionic.com/search.html ** Explore Our Archive: http://a-albionic.com/a-albionic.html Video Finder, Free Catalogs, Links, Sweepstakes, What-Not: http://www.msen.com/~daugh/store.htm *** -Original Message- From: Cristo1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Newsgroups: alt.politics.democrats.clinton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, April 29, 1999 10:55 PM Subject: Re: Flaw in Capitalist system Obviously this response is only true of STATISM not CAPITALISM!!! which this country only knew for a period of about 100 years, before being converted slowly at first but more rapidly in the last 30 years to STATISM!! DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
Re: [CTRL] Flaw in Capitalist system
-Caveat Lector- MAbUS wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]... The capitalist system has one major flaw. It is that after it is fully developed and exploited, there must be destruction because further growth is no longer possible. I am afraid this is an old fallacy with no basis in economics. Certainly, human desires and needs are infinite so there is no such thing as a fully developed Capitalist system. There is always the frontier of satisfying human desires and needs more efficiently and thoroughly HOWEVER--in "political capitalism" or "State Capitalism" the ruling political elite in covert control of the State and the commanding heights of the economy via the Federal Reserve and Regulatory Agencies may decide that _destruction_ would provide them more opportunities for profit and relief from competititive political and economic forces than trying to use their control of capital to develop new and more efficient economic activities. Further, they may decide that anything new they might do would undermine their existing hegemonic investments and, therefore, destruction would be a surer bet! For instance, instigating a war in which the peasants would be taxed to death would role gigantic profits into favored defense industries. The State Capitalist Financial Politicians could pull their money out of their "normal investments" prior to the concocted war crisis and put their capital into their defense companies. -- Forwarded for info and discussion from the New Paradigms Discussion List, not necessarily endorsed by: *** Lloyd Miller, Research Director for A-albionic Research (POB 20273, Ferndale, MI 48220), a ruling class/conspiracy research resource for the entire political-ideological spectrum. Quarterly journal, book sales, rare/out-of-print searches, New Paradigms Discussion List, Weekly Up-date Lists E-text Archive of research, intelligence, catalogs, resources. To Discuss Ideas: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://msen.com/~lloyd/ For Ordering Info Free Catalog: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://a-albionic.com/ For Discussion List: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] text: subscribe prj [EMAIL PROTECTED] **FREE RARE BOOK SEARCH: http://a-albionic.com/search.html ** Explore Our Archive: http://a-albionic.com/a-albionic.html Please Patronize PRJ's Advertisers: http://home.msen.com/~daugh/store.htm Many Pay Even If You Just Look and Don't Buy! Video Finder, Free catalogs, Health Products, Sweepstakes, Etc. *** MAbUS wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]... The capitalist system has one major flaw. It is that after it is fully developed and exploited, there must be destruction because further growth is no longer possible. DECLARATION DISCLAIMER == CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic screeds are not allowed. Substancenot soapboxing! These are sordid matters and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright frauds is used politically by different groups with major and minor effects spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers; be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and nazi's need not apply. Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector. Archives Available at: http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email: SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Om
