CS: Pol-The march in March
From: Margarita Booker, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >From: "Richard Loweth", INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] What you fail to understand that the bill is against hunting with dogs apposed to hunting with hounds. Lets face it once the bill becomes law it will be used to stop using dogs in the field Margarita -- _If_ it becomes law. Certainly the current Bill will run out of Parliamentary time. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Any old brass?
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] > and .303" ammo is either expensive or scarce (who'd > pay L27.50 per 100 for HXP anyway? Only L27.50? I pay twice that for .22/250 and .243! Aye lad - we were that poor we 'ad to make us own bullets wi' rabbit muck! __ Pete, When you have a moment have a look Graf & Sons website http://www.grafs.com . They usually have once fired brass and in their current catalogue .308Win is $87.50 per 1000 (£58). New Remington brass for 22/250 is $21.83 per 100 (£14.55) £$103.05 per 500 for .243 (£69) Even after paying carriage, you will find these prices hard to beat. Alex -- Cripes for a moment there I thought someone actually was going to tell us how to make bullets out of rabbit muck. ;> Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-AD Meetings
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > it doesn't matter what clothes you wear as long as you're a good person > inside. > > Keep the faith. > > Martyn Archer Yes I'm with you on that one. I realise that camo gear, holsters all over your body and an Alvis Stalwart parked in the drive isn't to everyones taste and to many appears a bit strange, but the bottom line is, who really gives a toss? The attitude of "well it's not really necessary so *they* shouldn't be allowed to do it" dosen't really hold water because no sport is really necessary in the true sense of the word, shooting no less so. This is only lowering ourselves to the level of the bannit brigade. In the 14ish years I've been shooting, the attitude of "don't rock the boat" has been the prevailing one from most of the shooting orgs and clubs. Given the benefit of hindsight, it is plainly obvious that it has done us absolutley no good what-so-ever, in any shape or form. If we had simply taken the bloody minded approach in everything, we may not be any better off than we are now but we certainly wouldn't be any worse off. We have been told not to carry guns in holsters, not to shoot at certain targets, not to use high cap mags, not to wear camo gear, to keep quiet during "sensitive" times when we could be getting our point accross, etc, etc,etc, this is all stuff from shooting orgs and clubs not Parliament. I'm sure others can add to this list. All of this has done nothing at all to help the shooting sports and unless we take a more beligerant attitude we won't be shooting anything by the end of the first decade of this century. I've met all types of people through shooting. I know some bloody good blokes who before the pistol ban used to go to the club tooled up like the preverbial Mexican bandit (Davey, do you still read this? :-)), I've known people who have worn camo gear, cowboy boots, hell I've even got a full length Austrailian stockmans coat I use at the range and I look a right tit in it! The point is, regardless of the eccentricity of the individual, I've never known anyone in the shooting world who I would actually regard as dangerous or likely to bring the sport into disrepute. Jonathan Laws Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Less Lethal Equiptment
From: "jim.craig", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Glasgow based broadsheet 'The Herald' claims that British police are looking at a 'less than lethal' airgun to use in some circumstances. Under the headline 'Paintball guns bid in crime fight' they claim that the FN Herstal Model XM303 can fire a variety of sub-lethal rounds including impact, illuminating and 'skunk' rounds which cover the target in a foul smelling liquid. The illuminating round apparently contains fluorescent /luminous paint while the impact round can temporarily incapacitate with little likelihood of permanent damage. The gun is powered by compressed air, has a quoted MV of 300 fps with a 12 gauge projectile and is said to be accurate out to 100 yards. The Home Office spokeswoman quoted said only that her department's science and technology section was 'always interested in new developments and would look carefully at American trials of the weapon. Another article in the same newspaper highlights the 'continuing rise in handgun related crime' and points out that this is in spite of the 1997 Firearms Act. It quotes Richard Law of the Shooters' Rights Association quite extensively saying that the figures prove that the banning of legally held pistols was a waste of government time and taxpayers' money and suggesting that they should 'consider giving licensed holders back their guns.' and going on to say that ' Every year there has been slight rise in the figures and every year the Government blamed it on licensed holders, now they have nobody to blame but themselves.' Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Earl W", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >I was concerned too that at the last "Pistol AD" that there were a number of black people present also. One can most definitely "judge a book by its cover"! Drug dealers and illegal "Yardies" seeking to buy "off-ticket guns" with money made from prostitution and false-passport rackets. It made my flesh shiver to see their brown hands handling fine Smith & Wesson pistols and asking "How much".< Richard, I do sincerely hope that you are taking the piss! Are you of totally pure heritage, one of the "master race" or are you taking the piss??? My apologies if you are joking. The very basis of the sport of shooting in all its forms, is that anyone of any Nationality, Sex, Ability or Disability (or "Class") can compete against anyone else on a level basis - The Para-Olympics springs to mind. There are not & should not be any barriers to anyone starting the sport of shooting as long as they meet the safety requirements to do so. Men, Women, Boys & Girls, can all compete on level footing against each other on the same level - WHY HAS THIS NOT BEEN PROMOTED??? At my local club, there is a mix of sexes & ages from 17 - 84 of men & women, where else at what other clubs/sports do you get such a diversity of individuals (except for SCUBA Diving which costs L1500 to get started in - though interestingly many Shooters, are also Divers) I have competed against Champions, Beginners & all in between I have taught Firearms proficiency to friends & girlfriends, cousins, nieces, all of whom are now safer, more aware & proficient in the subject of firearms (& not believing the anti's BS) than they would otherwise be. Where the shooting organisations fail miserably is to promote the BENEFITS OF SHOOTING, & this is what they should concentrate on. The Benefits to the Individual, - Concentration, Dexterity, better health, ingenuity, mental skills - maths, judging distances, wind speed, the effect that the various factors will have on the projectile etc - The Eyesight is maintained through the regular exercise of sighting the firearm, & Stigmatism's can be fixed by this method, even individual use of each eye can be achieved - how many non shooters have that skill, definitely a bonus when driving in traffic!!! The Benefits to History, the American West would only have been recorded as a Hollywood version if it was not for the efforts of firearm historians The Benefits to the Economy The Benefits to Community & Society - Disciplined, Law abiding, caring, thoughtful individuals who are able to work as a team. -Conservation & maintenance of the ranges, resulting in a wider array of wildlife The Benefits to Crime reduction - Lower rates of Burglary in areas where the burglar may encounter an armed householder - how many farms are burgled compared with the same number of houses? - Reduction in attacks on the person where CCW is permitted The Benefits to the Military & Police - Development of new technology, If a firearm is crap we say so (SA80) & it gets fixed (We aid the semi only versions of the SA80 were crap, but they banned them before the manufacturers took notice) -Customising & aftermarket add ons/improvements that can be adopted or bought by the serving personnel -Developing techniques in competition that is "state of the art" long before the military / Police adopt it -Improved ballistics & cartridge/powder development (Hunters in Alaska & Finland) - OO Buckshot - Developed for hunting larger mammals - later adopted by Police & Military to hunt Humans! -Police & Military teams can compete alongside shooters, which is of benefit to all concerned, increases proficiency, respect among the teams, comments on equipment selection, technique -Snipers are really Stalkers, who at time of war hunt Humans -Shooters have a wealth of knowledge which is shared openly that the Police / Military don't have E.G. Issuing a beginners gun - Revolver / Exposed hammer auto, instead of an advanced shooters gunThe Glock 17 & 9mm... ie. the correct tool for the job. These are just some of the points that we & the associations should promote each day, everyday every chance we get. Shooting unlike so many other sports is open to EVERYONE who wants to take part (as long as they are of sound mind), no matter what the condition of their bodies, background or race - how much trouble has there been at the Olympics between Shooting Teams compared with every other sport present, a lot less I'd wager. My Apologies again if you were joking. Can anyone add other benefits of shooting to the list - could be useful at the March In March N.B. Shooters ARE the definition of Sportsmen / Sportswomen / Sportsperson. WE are a commodity that should be revered Regard
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Make no mistake if, as some wrongly predict, the spotlight then turns on > game shooting and deer stalking... Oh yes it will, as sure as Eggs is Eggs it will. We all know very well how the "bannit" brigade operate, they aren't happy unless they are out there persecuting some minority interest group. Shooting, Stalking, Fishing Hawking, Ferreting and just about anything else you can think of from eating meat, drinking alcohol to scratching your arese in public. Anything that dosent fit with the moral values of some (very) loud mouthed minority organisation will be seen as fair game for eradication. Regarding the points about Fox Hunting being more cruel than shooting, sorry but I just can't see this. I fail to understand why a quick death by dogs is any more cruel than a quick death by shooting especially when there is zero risk of an injured animal getting away when hunted with dogs. Same with Hawking, if happens in nature so why is it unnaceptable if man has a hand in it? Jonathan Laws Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Robert Dashwood", [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I was concerned too that at the last "Pistol AD" that there were a number of > black people present also. One can most definitely "judge a book by its > cover"! Drug dealers and illegal "Yardies" seeking to buy "off-ticket guns" > with money made from prostitution and false-passport rackets. It made my > flesh shiver to see their brown hands handling fine Smith & Wesson pistols > and asking "How much". > This really is silly. I have been practicing at the Bar for a fair few years and have seen more unpleasant facets of one's fellow man than one would wish to. I have yet to see anyone with "mugger": "child abuser" or "murderer" tattooed on them making them stand out from the crowd. The last black chap I saw with a gun was carrying a rather nice pair of Boss, of which I was most envious, and had been at Eton. If he was a danger to anyone, it was to those on the other side of his takeover bids! That there are black criminal gangs and well-armed is known; there are also Asian, Chinese and various flavours of white UK armed criminals around. The key is that they are criminals first; the ethnicity is unimportant. Poaching where I live is a problem, skillfully handled by local police, and all those who have pointed their off-ticket 12 bores at me have been locals. If only they'd ask before taking the pigeons and rabbits, for there are more than enough. I would be surprised if any sensible criminal would attend a legit. event to scout for weapons; much more discrete is the dodgy pub, or even a quick trip to E. Europe: out by Squeezyjet and back by ferry. Eurostar occasionally searches luggage. Pre pistol ban it was always cheaper to buy unlawfully than to turn up at a shop with a licence and buy over the counter, or so some of my clients assured me. Occasionally one has some very limited sympathy for the criminals. I sat listening a few years ago to a plea of guilty at Southwark CC for unlawful possession; discharge with intent to endanger life; att. murder(acquitted of the latter) well-known drug dealer in the proverbial BMW was cut up by a white Transit in Balham High Road; he let off a magazine from a Browning Hi-Power at the Transit, mercifully wounding no-one. There but for the grace of God... Forgive the small rant and poor keyboard skills, but the Bar still believes in Phlogiston and has some way to go to find the 20th.century in my case. -- Er, I'm pretty sure Richard was being sarcastic! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-Emigrate!
From: N J Francis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >...Stuff about the system > Emigrating what a loverly idea! > roger hardley And you think this system and the people it manipulates are unique to this country do you? Neil Francis Trowbridge, UK -- That's exactly what I was thinking. Moving to New Zealand sounds wonderful but they have a tendency to copy the laws of places like the UK and Australia. Look at how much stuff Thorp quoted in his report in New Zealand from sources like the Dunblane Public Inquiry. If things get worse here they will likely get worse in many other places, especially Commonwealth countries. Probably not quite as bad as here but worse nonetheless. Still, if Switzerland joins the EU I'm off! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Any old brass?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~Aye lad - we were that poor we 'ad to make us own bullets wi' rabbit muck!~ You 'ad rabbit muck! - Luxury. We 'ad to pull us own teeth out, melt down the fillings and use those for t'bullets. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: N J Francis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > any of the other legal methods of control.) It's because some people > are revolted by the fact that other people go hunting for > enjoyment, and also because it's still perceived to be the sole preserve of > the idle rich and it's a good way of indulging in a bit of toff bashing. Sounds like a good enough reason to me. What is wrong with this? Neil Francis Trowbridge, UK -- It's inaccurate? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-Cats the worst killers
From: N J Francis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Not you, although you might belong to the cat. :-) > > As I understand it, the cat is not considered to be property, it is not > owned by you or anyone. In contrast, I do own my dog. All this 'nobody owns their cat' stuff is all very quaint and trendy - but quite frankly bollocks. The fact is my cat belongs to me. It is my property as much as any 'domestic' living animal I may have is my property. If anyone steals it I see no difference to stealing anything else off me. Same for anyone unlawfully killing it. Neil Francis Trowbridge, UK Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was concerned too that at the last "Pistol AD" that there were a number of black people present also. One can most definitely "judge a book by its cover"! Drug dealers and illegal "Yardies" seeking to buy "off-ticket guns" with money made from prostitution and false-passport rackets. It made my flesh shiver to see their brown hands handling fine Smith & Wesson pistols and asking "How much". _ I don't think they would be asking: "How much?", if they were drug dealers, but you can most certainly judge the book by its cover and that's why the "comprehensively educated" do not read books! I don't know whether you are serious, but I was shooting more than once on the Gallery at Bisley and listened the conversations on the next firing point. "I bought this (a 1911) because it would flatten anybody with one shot!" said one. "But you only have seven in the magazine. I feel better with 15." replied the other. "Definitely not in the Olympic class." I thought looking at their targets, but very dangerous for the survival of the sport in the country where target shooting was the only legal reason for owning pistols. Alex -- Actually I think Richard has a point Alex, for all you knew they were talking about shooting steel plates. I have to wonder whether your perception is colouring your views because really I have never encountered the things you say you have. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-AD Meetings
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Alex and Kenneth - handbags at 10 paces. As the majority of us >"lurkers" who sit and read this barrage of BS will all realise that it's the >diversity of the human race that makes this world so interesting and therefore it's >the diversity that makes our sport equally as interesting but it doesn't >give anyone the right to denigrate it. I am not sure what you are preaching, Martyn, but as you so rightly do not approve of anyone denigrating other person's opinions, you should also desist from referring to anyone's opinion as BS! >It doesn't matter what clothes you wear as long as you're a good person >inside. There is a kind of biblical truth in what you say, but even the bible bashers no longer believe that appearances do not matter. Your closest friends will know the real you, but at a distance you are what you look like! If the society in which you live expects certain standards of you and you disregard them, then you will become an outcast. Not a good position to be in when you are asking that same society to support your claim to the sport that you have lost! I am an atheist, yet the society in which I live expects me to come to church for weddings, christenings, funerals and similar occasions. And when I am there I treat clergy with respect and reverence and behave as if I were in a holy place! And I have not sold my principles, because my friends know that I am an atheist! On the contrary, I am showing due respect for their feelings and due consideration for the people who have invited me to share the occasion, happy or sad! So, if you are coming on the March, please do not wear "camo gear" and leave the body armour and knives at home. Polish your shoes, have a haircut and a shave and try to give an impression of a law abiding subject, honest, reliable and one that could be trusted to look after children playing in a park - not a survival freak that should be behind bars in some institution. Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The move to ban hunting with hounds is purely about the perception of hunting as an elitist, upper-class pastime enjoyed by the well-off. If Mr Loweth got around a little more he would see that shooting live quarry is perceived in exactly the same way as hunting by the urban and suburban population. He will do himself no favours by boycotting the March. Barry Woodward -- I thought it was Stuart who was boycotting it? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Sportsman's Association Website
From: "SA Mail", [EMAIL PROTECTED] You may be aware by now that the Sportsman's Association Website in offline. This is because we are in the process of changing hosts, and the process is taking longer than we were told it would. Hopefully the site will be back online early next week. In the meantime the SA will be making any urgent announcements via our Bulletin Board, which is hosted seperately and in full working order. To access the Bulletin Board directly the address is: http://venus.beseen.com/boardroom/d/26347 May I take this opportunity to apoligise for any inconvenience you have experienced. Yours faithfully, Richard Ormrod PA To The Director The Sportsman's Association Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Crime-Time to take guns out of community
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] a.. On Thursday a man was jailed for seven years at the Old Bailey for stabbing to death a rival in a crowded mobile phone shop in Harlesden. Rupert "Birdeye" James, 35, was acquitted of murdering Dean Samuels but convicted of manslaughter. He claimed Samuels had bullied and "dissed" him. - IIRC, they told us that they'd "taken all these guns off the streets" after the 1997 ban. So, how come it's time again to "take guns out of the community"? The only difference this time is that the guns _are_ actually on the streets and in the community and not in someone's locker. mike Steve, & Mike, To which I reply in a poetic manner: In the days of yore, when men were poor And the 'guns' we kept Were nothing to score, We were erstwhile friends And ner' do wells, In the eyes of the landed and the gentry, We looked the part of bums, But never harmed a soul, Yet were thought as scoundrels, And lessors, and scum. All because we would not, Accept the thrashing The disenfranchisement, And discount, We were reviled as less than, The whore in ill repute, Here it seems, We again face the same, Ill refrain of the same old song, That no matter what we do, We are always wrong. But as the script says, And it is quite unique, That in the end (over and over), When it is peace that all will seek We who have harmed none, Will in the end be the meek, And the earth will be ours: For the Meek are not the weak. If it matters, we are right, and have been for quite some time. We have only to persevere and bide our time till the matter is resolved to our benefit. But, never should we let our guard down. -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-TV: Siege
From: "Earl W", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Just seen the Siege program on ITV tonight, why is it that the police marksman will only shoot when the target is pointing the firearm at the hostage with their finger on the trigger, about to kill the hostage? I'm thinking of the shooting where the hostage taker was loading & unloading the (410?) shotgun & pointing his fingers at the hostage & the police as if he would shoot them, though he was not committed to do so. Also the "sniper" officer in training did exactly the same thing, the hostage taker fired the sawn off pump action SG above the hostage then later pointed the SG at the hostage's head, only then did the officer fire!!! As we all know, the body does the last thing the brain told it to do eg the decapitated Chicken that runs away headless - the last command the body received. Also there is the risk of reflex actions or spasm which would cause the target to pull the trigger inadvertently. Shooting someone when they are about to kill the hostage is probably too late, is it not better to shoot when the target is not pointing the firearm/weapon at their hostage(s), there by minimising the risk of the hostage being killed by accident. Someone needs to get all those mis-trained officers retrained, &also do something about their marksmanship abilities. Note that the spokesperson stated that they "need officers capable of shooting a weapon when under great stress" NO MENTION OF BEING ABLE TO HIT THE TARGET AT ALL! On a different note, I now understand that a police Force (poss Notts?) has purchased a shipment of.M16's & 50BMG Barretts, 3rd burst/ full auto/ 1/2" projectiles..in the police armoury! Makes one wonder what else they have...M203's, Mk19's??? Minimi's, GPMG's! Did a force not have a stock of SA80's in the late 80's IIRC? Anyone else see the programme? EW -- Home Office guidelines are that the police cannot have full-autos, although PT17 apparently have a few in case of another Iranian Embassy siege type situation. No police force to my knowledge has ever used the SA80 or anything belt-fed (except the Jamaican Police). Several forces do have .50s though, for long-range shots. Some forces kept some of the semi-autos handed in during 1989 for use by police countersnipers, certainly some H&K G3s, 91s and 93s ended up that way. Actually a shot to the brain will shut someone down before they can do anything else, countersnipers are trained on special targets to hit the correct part of the head, I seem to recall the aiming point on the target is just above the nose, a bit higher than a shot would be right between the eyes. This was heavily researched after the case in San Francisco I think it was, after a Black Panther ducktaped himself to someone and when he was shot he was able to kill the hostage. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-will you go to jail?
From: "Ian Summerell", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If any one is interested, Pobin Page is asking people to sign up to scare Blair. He is asking the question "will you go to jail for foxhunting?" You can sign up online at www.countrymansweekly.co.uk Ian Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-BSSC
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] But BSSC also said "keep quiet" after Hungerford! It didn't work then either. But they never learnt. I personally would not give a penny piece to them. Useless! Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-MoD Police Powers
From: "Charles Parker", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spectator - 17 Feb 2001 A national police force is being assembled, and newspapers are looking the other way STEPHEN GLOVER When people say that this government has a tyrants heart I usually take it with a pinch of salt. Surely Tony Blair and nice Jack Straw and that strange Geoff Hoon cant really be trying to deprive us of our hard-won liberties. Granted there are worrying examples, such as the plan to limit july trials. But need we get so het up? Yes we do. Unnoticed by most newspapers, and ignored by all lobby correspondents, a select committee has been considering the Armed Forces Bill. Tacked on to this is a separate section relating to the powers of the Ministry of Defence police. The effect of these proposals, if adopted, would be to create a national police force for the first time, directly answerable to the Secretary of State for Defence. Let me go back a bit. In 1987 the powers of the Ministry of Defence police were extended under the Ministry of Defence Police Bill. However, the relevant minister, Archie Hamilton, gave an assurance that all serious crimes [would be] passed on to the domestic police department. In other words, the MoD police would still be largely restricted to the no doubt important work of guarding Ministry of Defence property and investigating minor crimes committed by MoD personnel. This undertaking has been more honoured in the breach than in the observance. Increasingly, the MoD police have been investigating serious crimes. More ominously, they have been acting as an arm of the state against civilians. Readers may remember the cases of Tony Geraghty and Nigel Wylde, two utterly decent men, and both of them civilians, whose houses were raided by MoD police in December 1998. Charges against both men were later dropped, but not before they had been harassed and intimidated. So the powers of the MoD police have been gradually and stealthily increased. Now the government wants to extend them further. If the Armed Forces Bill becomes law, the Ministry of Defence police will have full jurisdiction and investigative powers anywhere in the United Kingdom. But whereas existing constabularies face local accountability, the Ministry of Defence police would be accountable only to the Secretary of State for Defence. They would be perfectly within their rights if they raided your house or mine, or arrested us in the street. The Bill requires that the local chief constable agree, but that is all. Perhaps you think I am being a little paranoid. We are all British, after all. Surely the MoD police would not overstep the mark. Well, I wouldnt count on it. Nigel Wylde has uncovered an extraordinary speech made by Walter Boreham, the retiring chief constable of the MoD police, last October. Mr Boreham was addressing the Defence Police Federation conference, and was rather indiscreet. He revealed that during the fuel protests the previous month he had been approached by the government and asked for assistance. I wrote back to the second permanent under-secretary, said Mr Boreham, and told him that he could have as many officers as reasonably practicable but he wouldnt be able to use them for the specific role the Home Office had intended of aiding fuel convoys or policing picketed oil refineries. Having explained our dilemma in great legislative detail, it wasnt long before the second permanent under-secretary was on the case. In others word, the government considered using the MoD police during the fuel protest, thinking that they would be more effective than normal police. Upon discovering this was not permissible under existing legislation, the government decided to extend the powers of the MoD police so that they could work as a national police force. Hence the new section in the Armed Forces Bill. This section is meeting spirited opposition in the select committee, led by the Tory MP Robert Key and the Liberal Democrat Paul Keetch. Labour MPs on the committee, by contrast, do not appear unduly alarmed by their governments tyrannical inclinations. Amendments will be introduced by opponents, and the Bill will get a rough ride in the Lords. It may not reach the statute book before a May election, but that wouldnt stop New Labour having another go if it wins. Mr Key is surely right when he speaks of mission creep on the part of the MoD police. The government is attempting to introduce an unaccountable national police force by the back door, and it must be stopped. -- Fantastic, is what I say. If there is a national police force then maybe we can get a national firearm licensing system out of it too. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More
CS: Crime-police armourer questioned
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] POLICE ARMOURER QUESTIONED OVER `FIREARMS OFFENCES' 160006 FEB 10 An armourer for two police forces has been questioned about possible firearms offences, it emerged today. The 55-year-old man has been released on bail pending further inquiries until April 16, Suffolk police said. The man is understood to be a registered gun dealer and armourer for the Suffolk and Norfolk forces. His job is to maintain and repair police guns. He does not buy them for the police. Officers are believed to have seized a substantial number of weapons and to be examining them to try to establish whether or not they are owned legitimately. The man is understood to have been arrested at his home in Pakenham, Suffolk. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-NZ gun registration unlikely
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://onenews.nzoom.com/news_detail/0,1227,29750,00.html > >Setback for gun registration plan Steve, Mike, & John (Howat), It's good (and that is stating it mildly) that John's organization has made inroads in this matter. I wonder how much an impact our own letters -- eloquently penned and appropriately civil -- would further the cause of our brothers and sisters that southern land? John: your voice is needed here. If we can ever hope to get over the top and beyond, then we must assist in every way we can. Let us bolster the voice of Liberty in every way we might! If the light of reason can shine for even a moment, it will be as a beacon in the night, and entice all others to see the error of their way. Let us help sustain that lantern! -- In Liberty, =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Whenever we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary." --Thomas Paine By way of the The Federalist http://www.Federalist.com/ =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Target-Any old brass?
From: Pete Ansbro, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > and .303" ammo is either expensive or scarce (who'd > pay L27.50 per 100 for HXP anyway? Only L27.50? I pay twice that for .22/250 and .243! Aye lad - we were that poor we 'ad to make us own bullets wi' rabbit muck! Pete Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was concerned too that at the last "Pistol AD" that there were a number of black people present also. One can most definitely "judge a book by its cover"! Drug dealers and illegal "Yardies" seeking to buy "off-ticket guns" with money made from prostitution and false-passport rackets. It made my flesh shiver to see their brown hands handling fine Smith & Wesson pistols and asking "How much". Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-AD Meetings
From: "Martyn Archer", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alex and Kenneth - handbags at 10 paces. As the majority of us "lerkers" who sit and read this barrage of BS will all realise that it's the diversity of the human race that makes this world so interesting and therefore it's the diversity that makes our sport equally as interesting but it doesn't give anyone the right to denigrate it. I like guns, rifles, knives, camo clothing ad infinitum. There's not enough time in the world for me to enjoy all the things I want to achieve before I die. What I have no time for is the bickering of grown men over who's got the biggest, fastest, most powerful whatever. Just give me the facts, let me make my own judgement, then move on... As to the AD/Pistol meeting comments. I have been to every single one since 1985 (twice in some years) I don't remember the armoured vehicle but I used to walk between the competitions with my 686 in my holster. I have seen others with loaded magazines/holstered 1911/concealed holsters openly displayed, ankle holstered firearms. I saw a couple of guys firing Uzi's on the Man V Man (I thing I took a video it) The funniest thing I saw was one chap who had a Buntline in a standard holster and the barrel went past his knee. He was wearing shorts, boots and a white tee shirt. Every one who saw him laughed and must have thought "what a Pratt". In 1994 I was asked by one of the range workers to cover up my revolver, but I pointed out to him that if he looked behind him he could see there was a group of people gathering together all showing each other what they had bought, so what was the point? The point is "IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW YOU'RE DRESSED". If it's cold at Bisley, I wear a camo jacket. I've been shooting there for 20 years up to 18 times a year, they still take my money. So please boys, don't get out of your prams, lets concentrate on the job in hand. 1. March on the 18th 2. Raise the profile of our sport 3. Demand ONE ORGANISATION 4. If all else fails...emigrate and email your MP to tell him why. It doesn't matter what clothes you wear as long as you're a good person inside. Keep the faith. Martyn Archer Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Useful Quote
From: "John Hurst.", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Saxon is not like the Norman. His manners are not so polite. But he never means anything serious till he talks about justice and right. When he stands like an ox in the furrow with his sullen set eyes on your own, And grumbles, "This isn't fair dealing", My son, leave the Saxon alone. R. Kipling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-New Police Weapon?
From: "Charles Parker", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Police Review 9 Feb 2001 Advice sought over search for new weapon By SEAN HOWE ACPO has asked Home Office scientists to assist with the search for a new weapon - something less lethal than a gun but able to operate over greater distances than CS spray. ACPOs salf-defence arrest and restraint subcommittee and its firearms sub-committee have submitted their operational requirements, detailing what the weapon must be capable of doing, to the Police Scientific Development Branch. Other advisers have also been consulted. Police Review understands that the PSDB has been asked to examine the available technology and then to advise the ACPO committees abouthow they meet their requirements. Insp Neil Haynes, former assistant secretary to the self-defence, arrest and restraint sub-committee, confirmed that the request had been made of the PSDB, adding: Unless we are clear about what we want we are going to be looking at sifting through a hell of a lot of rubbish.' Insp Haynes said the PSDB were given the operational requirements last summer, and were asked to give regular updates to the respective ACPO committees. Currently officers are equipped with batons and CS spray, but, according to Insp Haynes the service recognises there is still a gap between those options - which are very close range and a firearm. What we need is a less lethal option that operates over a greater distance.' Insp Haynes illustrated his point by saying: if a man is armed wlth an axe, its a short-range weapon. The options at present are containment and negotiation... but there may be an additional threat in that people are threatening to harm themselves, and time is a factor. 'The only options (in this situation] would be to use firearms to shoot [the man] or put [support group officers] in with shields to disarm them. Even though that has been seen to be effective, it is putting officers into the threat range. It may be theres a need for other options to be considered.' Insp Haynes added: CS... can cause red skin, burning and isnt particularly pleasant to have applied but if you balance that against other options such as baton strikes [the CS] option is preferable. Summing up, he saId: If an officer is acting on information he believes to be correct and the only option open to him is a lethal one, theres no opportunity to reverse the decisions. It is too final. Communication and conflict resolution techniques will not be abandoned, he stressed, but he accepted there is a need for the police to have more options. 'This is particularly now that the Human Rights Act is there, because of the need to have the options to act proportionately,' said lnsp Haynes. In order to operate truly proportionately we need more options to consider. More tools In the toolbox.' Insp Haynes, who was until recently in charge of officer satety at New Scotland Yard, attended a non-lethal weapons conference hosted by the Janes Information Group in Edinburgh in December, where speakers from a number of countries outlined not only weapons they used but talked about some of the continuing research regardIng both existing and new non-lethal weapons. Talking to Police Review this week, lnsp Haynes said ACPO was seeking a weapon which was less- lethal' He explained: Something which through appropriate testing and medical reviews is unlikely to cause fatal or serious injury, is able to be operated simply and at distances beyond existing kit (in the range of 25 metres).' He added: Less lethal is used because we see it as a comparative lethality because although we have got to accept there are very few things that are totally non-lethal...what we want is something where lethality is extremely uniikely and minimised.' A spokesperson for the Home Office confirmed this week: We are looking into the request from ACPO.' A Police Complaints Authority spokesman explained: When firearms are used and a civilian is injured or killed it is automatically put to the PCA to supervise the investigation into what happened.' Molly Meacher, deputy chairwoman of the PCA told Police Review: 'We would welcome anything that reduced the risk of people losing their lives through the use of firearms. When it came to deployment, Insp Haynes said: There is a human being on each end of a less lethal option and we have got to understand and respect that there is a human being on the operating end and not put those people under undue pressure when deciding which option is most appropriate.' He said any decision about who would be armed with any new weapons would be determined by the way they were to be deployed. It should not be assumed, he added, that the weapons would automatically be given to firearms officers. UNDER CONSIDERATION Weapons under consideration, said l
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If hunting is not cruel, why then am I prosecuted if I set a pack of large dogs onto a smaller, solitary dog? All that the Hunting Bill really can be said to be doing is simply extending to wild mammals the protection that domestic mammals have enjoyed since before the Kaiser's War. I also believe that yes, hawking is also cruel, as is the practice of ritual slaughter and the live feeding of reptiles with mice, rats and birds. But, as Abraham Lincoln said :"One war at a time". I shall also not be going to the march in March. Why? Because I am not one of those who wish to see my sport - live quarry shooting - hijacked as "marching fodder" by the houndsports lobby, whilst almost every day I am subject to hearing or reading letters from the red coated fraternity in the local media in my local press justifying their method of "fox control" because "shooting is cruel"! Make no mistake if, as some wrongly predict, the spotlight then turns on game shooting and deer stalking then these same old quotes will be trotted out against us. Can we not remember Michael Yardley's "infamous" handgun interview at the time of Hungerford being used by the press after Dunblane? Is it not evidence itself that there is no "hidden agenda" against shooting that the Government itself has modified the Hunting Bill specifically to remove any risk of deer stalking with dogs being "caught" in the Hunting Bill? Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-McCain introduces gun bill
McCain Planning Gun Control Bill By Mark Preston of Roll Call http://www.rollcall.com/pages/news/00/2001/02/news0208c.html Seizing on Congress' failure to reach a bipartisan agreement on gun safety legislation, Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Joe Lieberman (D-Conn.) are quietly working together to draft an alternative compromise that both parties can support. The discussions between McCain and Lieberman are still in the infant stages, but the bill is likely to include a reworked version of the controversial gun show loophole, trigger locks and more funds and support for the law enforcement community, aides to both Senators said. Some of McCain's GOP colleagues believe that the Arizonan's interest in the gun issue and other hot topics, such as HMO reform, is an attempt to undercut President Bush's agenda. "[McCain] is just trying to set the presidential agenda, and there is a discomfort with that," griped a GOP Senator close to the Republican leadership team Staffers for both McCain and Lieberman have been talking about a compromise gun bill since late last year; however, the two Senators were able to discuss the issue in greater depth during their official visit to Munich, Germany, this past weekend. "This is not done," a source close to McCain cautioned. "But we are working on it." A spokesman for Lieberman acknowledged that the Connecticut Democrat is eager to work with the Arizona Republican, whom he "deeply respects." "This would be an opportunity to chart a third way on stopping gun crime by dedicating more resources to enforcing existing gun laws while also fixing some of the loopholes that persist in those laws," Lieberman spokesman Dan Gerstein said "With Senator McCain joining Senator Lieberman on this debate, you are all but guaranteed it is going to register on the public's radar screen," said a senior Senate Democratic aide, who noted that the Senate Democratic leaders would likely embrace Lieberman's efforts to pass a gun safety bill. "McCain is unbelievable," the aide added. "He has got absolutely no fear of antagonizing his leadership." McCain's decision to tackle this issue is likely to further infuriate his Senate GOP colleagues, who are working hard to implement Bush's legislative priorities. "There is a lot of frustration," a Republican Senator said. "He has got his own agenda."... Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Cutlasses
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cutlasses and even Boarding Pikes were still listed as warships equipment right through the 1960's and even into the early 1970's. At least one case of pristine cutlasses was discovered in store in one of the West Wales storage depots during the massive Falklands equipment preparations - that would have been early 1982. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-Cats...and Pheasants..
From: Jonathan Spencer, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >If you "steal" a pheasant when it is alive...it is poaching. This is my understanding - feel free to correct me. A wild living pheasant is a wild animal and belongs to no man. Once it is "reduced into possession" - whether alive or dead - it becomes possession. >So >what then of pet pheasants kept in an enclosed aviary? Theft or poaching? Since they are in someone's possession, they belong to that someone. --Jonathan Spencer, firearms examiner "Justice is open to everybody in the same way as the Ritz Hotel." Judge Sturgess, 22 July 1928 Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Field-Cats...and Pheasants..
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] If a wild animal has been legally captured and become a possession or is bred in captivity then it has become property and therefore theft from the aviary would be just that - theft. Regards Jerry Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-SAS vs MMM
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.freep.com/news/metro/moms14_20010214.htm Soccer moms enlist in battle over guns Michigan's CCW fight takes fun out of games at metro business February 14, 2001 BY TAMARA AUDI FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER With its green indoor turf, a parking lot that could double as a minivan showroom and a popular soccer clinic for toddlers called Wee Kickers, Total Soccer in Wixom seemed an unlikely battlefield for the national gun debate. But it was there on a Friday night, as the last games of pickup soccer were ending, that pro-gun forces dealt a blow to gun control. As battles go, it wasn't much to watch. The gun-control soldiers carried petition sheets and pens, and wore sweat suits, ponytails and tight smiles. They spoke in low voices. This is how soccer moms fight. They were defeated by the only group powerful enough to beat them: other soccer moms. Gun-rights mothers threatened to pull their kids off Total Soccer teams if the gun-control mothers -- mostly members of the Million Mom March -- did not stop collecting signatures at the facility for a petition that could overturn Michigan's new concealed-weapons law. The pro-gun mothers used the word "boycott." Petitioners were asked to leave. And Total Soccer learned its lesson. "It was enough to make you think if a company takes a political stand, it's going to hurt you in the long run," said Wendy Woods, a Total Soccer manager. She said the petitioners were well-mannered and friendly. Some were even familiar faces in the tight-knit soccer community. But management said it feared as many as 20 of 600 teams might be eliminated by a boycott. "Whether we support what they're doing or not, it ends up being not worth it." As the gun battle intensifies in Michigan, some of the fiercest fighting is going on in the oddest places: churches, ice rinks, movie theaters, parent-teacher group meetings and Main Street shops. And the most powerful fighters, it turns out, are the women who support these places with their money, time and children. Gun-control advocates have until March 28 to collect 151,000 valid signatures to try to put the concealed-weapons law on a ballot before voters. The newly passed law gives Michigan residents age 21 and older the right to carry concealed weapons with a permit. The law, which takes effect July 1, bans weapons from certain public places, including bars, schools and sports arenas. The Million Mom March is not the only group gathering signatures. The effort is coordinated by People Who Care About Kids, a group organized by Wayne County Prosecutor Michael Duggan. But ever since the Million Mom March grabbed national attention at its Washington, D.C., event last Mother's Day by using motherhood as political currency, women in gun-rights groups have taken on a higher profile. Second Amendment Sisters (SAS), the pro-gun answer to the Million Mom March, has been recruiting women in Michigan. Next month, along with the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners, SAS will host a Shop 'n' Shoot weekend in Frankenmuth exclusively for women. So far, about 35 women have signed up for shooting lessons and bargain-shopping. Both sides of the gun debate are tapping feminine instincts. The Web site of the Million Mom March ties into Valentine's Day today with the message "It's A Labor of Love." The SAS site counters with "Happy Valentine's Day! Is your love protected?" Although they were defeated at Total Soccer, the Million Mom March and the concealed-weapons petition are winning on other fronts. Last weekend, petitions were passed out in 50 churches and synagogues in metro Detroit, Duggan said. So far, 125,000 signatures have been collected. And some religious leaders embrace the cause, despite pressure. "There were some people in the congregation who were not happy because they felt we were mixing politics and religion. And one person objected as an NRA member," said the Rev. John Budde, pastor of the Holy Family Catholic Church in Novi. NRA is the National Rifle Association. That hasn't stopped gun-rights proponents from trying to push petitioners out when they see them. The chat room of the Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners Web site is filled with comments from members looking to thwart petitioners at the businesses where they are collecting signatures. "I don't want to give money to any business that's going against our interests -- and a lot of members feel the same way," said Ross Dykman, the coalition's executive director. Dykman said he has written letters to some businesses. But what has really rattled business owners are complaints from consumers, especially women, said Dykman and representatives for some businesses. So far, gun-control petitioners have been asked to leave Total Soccer, MJR Theaters in
CS: Pol-The march in March
From: David Chappell - UK, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Like a lot of people, I enjoy the quotes often posted here. I have kept just about all of them. Whilst going through them, I came upon this little gem that I had forgotton, it might make a nice poster: "We are peaceful people; we ask only to live freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect." - This phrase comes from Clause 4 of New Labour's constitution. :-) David. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-The Left's Embrace of Guns
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ashcroft May Teach Lefties to Love Guns Knute Berger, AlterNet February 13, 2001 I have never understood why the left in this country has decided to unilaterally disarm. Why is it that liberal civil libertarians are always gung ho on the constitution, until it gets to the Second Amendment which was what, written in invisible ink? In trying to stake out some kind of moral high ground, the left has abandoned not a only a basic right, but a potent symbol. Face it, in America, you only get respect if you're packing. The right has known this for a long time: guns are as American as John Wayne, as righteous as Charleton Heston, as cool as the latest, hipster noir revival film (Snatch comes to mind). But more importantly, the militias, patriots, NRA-nuts, and neo-Confederates comprise an importantand much pandered-toRepublican constituency. Their guns, and the money that goes with them, have gained them the attention of the media and the powerful. Unlike Barry Goldwater, their extremism in the defense of liberty has been good politics. Now one of the big panderers is Attorney General, John Ashcroft, a man who loves to toss around right-wing code words that mean something to the far political fringe. He defends gun rights as a bulwark against the "tyranny" of government and judicial activism, and he extols the virtues of "southern patriots." As the left faces the possibleeven likelytyranny of a far-right Republican regime, isn't it time to lock and load? The left has been reluctant to ally itself with the right on many issues, even when they agree. Notice that few activists have embraced Pat Buchanan for his stance against the World Trade Organization. Partly it's principle, not wanting to associate with racists, anti-Semites, or religious fanatics. It's also partly snobbery, avoiding the trailor trash side of the cultural divide. The result is that many liberals looked the other way at the outrages at Ruby Ridge and Waco, or at the depradations against privacy and police restraint under Attorney General Janet Reno and Bill Clinton. They scoffed when the NRA fundraisers called federal cops "stormtroopers." Well, now that the government is in new hands, is the left having any second thoughts? Does anyone really believe that Ashcroft's ATF will be any more compassionate than Janet Reno's? It's not like lefty activists have abandoned violence entirely. The Earth Liberation Front and other so-called eco-terrorists are torching trophy homes that sprawl into the last lots of wilderness (or Long Island). The Black Bloc anarchists of Eugene and elsewhere are ever-eager to make a statement by smashing glass at the nearest Starbucks or Niketown. Of course, they don't like to call such acts violence because, they rationalize, acts against property aren't violence, because private property itself is violence. Whatever. The fact remains that some elements of the left are resorting to actions that make simple gun ownership for self-defense, or any other legal reason, seem downright lame. After all, target shooting, it seem to me, is much less violent than burning down a ski resort. If the mainstream left was honest with itself, it would end its pious moralizing about guns and recognize that violence is sometimes an effective political tool. An even greater tool is the threat of violence. In Seattle, a group of pro-gun progressives, Democrats for the Second Amendment, got together with a group called Cease Fear to offer NRA handgun training to gay and lesbians. The training was also sponsored by a variety of organizations, including the Microsoft Gun Club, the local Libertarian Party, and the Jewish Defense League. While Cease Fear focuses on basic gun safety training, it was also designed to help people get over the idea that guns are for rednecks only. Jonathan Rauch, in a Salon article called "Pink Pistols," argues that guns can not only protect gays, but empower them the way self-defense has empowered Jews. "Guns can do the same thing for homosexuals: emancipate them from their image -- often internalized -- of cringing weakness. Pink pistols, I'll warrant, would do far more for the self-esteem of the next generation of gay men and women than any number of hate crime laws or antidiscrimination statutes." Rauch wants to make gay-bashing dangerous. To that end, Cease Fear unveiled new T-shirts for last spring's Gay Pride parade: and delta symbol with a fist holding a handgun and the words "Bash this!" In that spirit, the time is ripe for liberals to overcome their Second-Amendment reluctance, embrace gun rights, praise Gaia and pass the ammunition. It's time to test the tolerance of the Bush administration's new chief law enforcement officer by seeing how far he'll go to protect those who also abhor tyranny, but from the opp
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not after the comment about Pistol AD. I was at the last one and so was Lord Cullen and neither of us saw anything that you mention. You say later on Pistol 94, so possibly you are getting confused as to the dates, but Pistol 96 did not have anything going on that was remotely unsavoury, at least from what I saw and I was there for two days, and Cullen was there on one of the days I wasn't. Lord Cullen even commented on how well-regulated the sport appeared. Steve. __ You are right, it was 1995 Anno Domini meeting as my letter to Sandy Ewing, who was then Chief Executive of NRA is dated 6th June, 1995. But even if you went to that meeting, you may not have seen the group I described because they stayed only one day and I used to go every day as I live only 25 miles from Bisley. But the date does not alter the validity of the argument. On another occasion at my club we had a visit form the local Parish Councillors. Our range is in one of 5 ex.military hospital wards, all of which have been converted to civilian leisure use and the councillors (who are in fact our landlords) visit all clubs on site on a fact finding mission. Well, this visit was after Dunblane in the Summer of 1996 and we debated how best to present our sport. My suggestion that we should stick to something very tame and boring like UIT shooting at 25 metres, but the majority opinion was that we should not pretend but show them a Service match with turning targets. When our visitors came one or two male councillors had a go and evidently enjoyed themselves, but at the end of this "presentation" an older woman said that it sent shivers down her spine seeing us shoot at "the pictures of soldiers" and she asked if we enjoyed imagining shooting at people!!! Fortunately, I expected the question and I replied that the targets were no more than means of scoring the shots and that their design was not up to us but was regulated internationally. "Of course we would prefer to shoot at the traditional round bull targets, but if we are to compete in international matches we have to use the prescribed targets." I said. I thought I handled the embarrassing moment rather well, but after they had gone I got a lot of flack from several members, who thought that I was ashamed of what we were doing.etc., etc., I do hope that I have made my point clear - we do depend on public opinion and if, though ignorance, they show concern at what they see, we should try to reassure them, explain what is it all about, rather than bash them with our rights. Our sport is easily linked with violence and crime and we should be wary of any behaviour that might show us in that light. Now, if some members of this list still think that this is "the sensible approach that can only lead to ..!", I am afraid that is all I can offer. But I did not always think this. The time for protests and bloody mindedness was during the Cullen Enquiry! We wasted precious weeks and months examining "evidence" and writing "submissions" when we should have taken the firm stand against our sport being examined and against any recommendations made as regards its future when the massacre had nothing to do with any of us. Even if Hamilton were the Chairman of NRA and His Holiness the Pope at the same time, what he did had nothing to do with me, you, Kenneth and 57,000 other pistol shooters and that is and always will be my opinion. Alex -- My explanation would have been to point out that most target shooting sports have their roots in military practice, even ISSF, so it is hardly surprising the targets look like enemy soldiers. But then you were there, sometimes it is better to use an unsophisticated argument depending on the brain power of who you are talking to. It was important to make submissions to the Cullen Inquiry, that wasn't a mistake, the mistake was that too many people listened to BSSC and the crazy suggestion that we "keep quiet" when everyone should have been writing to their MPs, newspapers, etc. (In fact BSSC actually suggested that only they should make a submission to the inquiry - it didn't even mention any of the criminology arguments). I wrote to every member of the House of Lords and actually got phone calls from peers thanking me for my letter and saying that they had only received one or two others. In at least a few cases those letters made the difference on how the peer voted. However this is crying over spilt milk. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-BSSC
From: "VinceB", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Er, well, here's me prattling along about 'one organisation' and an 'umbrella' organisation, embracing all the main existing associations and then Norman Bassett comes along and tells me about the BSSC. The BSSC (British Shooting Sports Council) already exists and represents BASC, APCTSG, SAGBNI, CA, NRA, CPSA, NSRA, GTA, SST, MLA and UKPSA. I would say that's 75% of UK shooting associations - based on membership nos. Is there anyone out there who can tell us a little more about the BSSC? Can we get the rest of the 'unnattached' associations to affiliate? Will they accept individuals? How is it funded? Anyone know? Cheers VinceB -- BSSC has been around for ages. Essentially they have meetings of the association reps once in a while to decide on common policies. Funding for them comes from donations. There is no individual membership. Pretty much everyone lost faith in them with their "keep quiet" policy after Dunblane that was patently obviously the wrong thing to do. (And the main reason I started Cybershooters). The fact that you haven't heard of them before speaks volumes. I think they're a bit better than they were simply because of the huge amount of complaints, but it's a bit late now. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Misc-Cooper's Commentaries
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MID-WINTER And by that we certainly do not mean 'the winter of our discontent.' The new regime in Washington may not be perfect in every respect, but when one is plucked out of the sea by a life boat he is not likely to complain that it leaks a little. The mood at the NRA winter board meeting was notably cheerful. We started out by extending Charlton Heston's reign for one more year, and this is an occasion for great joy. There are those who claim that he was selected by somewhat irregular means, but he is such a tremendous asset to the Association that we are not likely to find fault with procedural technicalities. In his position as president, Mr. Heston supplies a persona of dignity and charisma unmatched by anyone in public life since Ronald Reagan. We learn that NRA membership is now up to 4.3 million. We learn that Dr. Ugo Beretta of Gardone has donated the sum of one million dollars (that is dollars, not lire) to the Association. He may not make the world's best service pistol, but he does run the world's best executive lunch room, as I can attest personally. At the winter meeting I was elevated to the peerage, so to speak, by being elected to the Executive Council of the National Rifle Association. This is a life-time appointment during good behavior (I may be flung out if I would be discovered to have voted for a Democrat), which relieves me from the need to run for office again, unless I choose to do so. A council member does not have voting authority, but this is hardly a bother when we note that really close votes on policy matters are nearly unheard of. I intend to remain on the board until my present term runs out. At that time, circumstances will decide whether I should run again. We all noted that the Attorney General of South Carolina has announced that the season is now open in that state on burglars. Now there is an example to follow! After a preliminary but penetrating study, we have concluded that the best of the pocket 45s is the Kimber. Family member Clint Smith, however, deems that it is God's will that any pistol for the 45 ACP cartridge must have a 5-inch barrel. Customizers take note. We learn that Saddam Hussein has announced (in Arabic) that he won the Gulf War. Well he did get away, a historical mistake for which we are inclined to hold George Bush, Sr., responsible. It would appear that that small, black cloud on the horizon is the specter of a general Moslem war against the West-something which should be put off as long as possible, but is probably going to be with us in due course. Someone has observed that if you find yourself in San Francisco, be careful upon leaving not to look back, lest you be turned into a pillar of salt. Let it be decreed that there may be no elections in the future during hunting season. Apparently Hillary has suggested that we reform our electoral system by modifying or doing away with the Electoral College. If she is serious about this (or about anything), we suggest she consider restructuring the Electoral College on the basis of counties, rather than states. That should certainly take care of that argument. Despite the factory's curious decision to discontinue production of the 376 Scout, which I like to call the Steyr Dragoon, the piece was a distinct sensation at the Safari Club meeting in Vegas. Family member and master instructor Rich Wyatt sold ten of them to people going to Africa. This piece is a great success in both Africa and Alaska, and why it should be taken off the market at a time when new products seem to be the rage is hard to explain. What it offers is solid, medium-class power in Scout configuration, and Scout configuration is the most significant forward step in the design of sporting rifles since World War II. There seems to be a mysterious sort of emotional block here, possibly do to lack of shooting experience on the part of gun salesmen as a class. There is also the 'magnum myth,'; which has served to convince a couple of generations of hunters that excess power can make up for lack of marksmanship. One correspondent claimed, for example, that some people in his party opined that 'the 308 simply would not suffice for open-country mule deer hunting.' Those who are familiar with open-country mule deer hunting are well aware that the 308 will do everything that a 300 Ultra will, and with considerably less bother. When that mule deer gets so far away that you cannot deck him with your Scout, you are not going to be able to take him with your 'super thunder-stick' either. Remember that a hunter's skill is measured not in how far away his target was, but how close he was able to get to it. Of course a good many hunters are not very skilled, but that does not excuse taking shots beyond one's useful range. The
