windows which inherit visual type from root window appear in rootless mode (6.8.1.0-1 on Windows 2000)
Hi all, I think I have found a bug with the Cygwin/X server when run with the -rootless flag. It seems that children of the root window which use InputOnly as their class and CopyFromParent as their visual type display part of the (normally unshown) root window (with stippled black and white pattern) rather than displaying nothing. The window manager WindowLab (http://www.nickgravgaard.com/windowlab/) of which I'm the author demonstrates this bug when the user tries to drag a window (an InputOnly and CopyFromParent child of root is used to constrain the mouse pointer). Cheers, Nick
Re: New rootless mode
Kensuke Matsuzaki wrote: Hi, guys. I'm writing code related mwextwm. Temporally I added -internalwm option. It detects another window manager, and automatically it switches on/off built-in window manager. There are duplicated code for -rootless and -multiwindow and -mwextwm. This will merge those three mode. I have to clean-up, debug and test more. But I want to know direction of this patch before. How do you think? 1. Add -internalwm option? (more better naming?) -internalwm is actually -multiwindow? 2. Replace -rootless and -multiwindow with this. or something else. I'd keep the options (at least their names) for backward compatibility. BTW: Torrey wanted to change a rootless definition in fb.h https://freedesktop.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1737 Can you please take a look? I don't think the change will break anything but I've not the complete insight on the code. bye ago NP: Neikka RPM - Bound with sympathy (Terrorfakt mix) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gotti.org ICQ: 126018723
Re: New rootless mode
-internalwm is actually -multiwindow? No. -multiwindow use hw/xwin/winmultiwindow*.c to handle widow, but -internalwm use miext/rootless/. And -internalwm uses built-in wm in winmultiwindowwm.c too if another window manager is running. I'd keep the options (at least their names) for backward compatibility. I see. BTW: Torrey wanted to change a rootless definition in fb.h https://freedesktop.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1737 Can you please take a look? I don't think the change will break anything but I've not the complete insight on the code. It seems no problem. I remember that I added defined(__CYGWIN__) to use miext/rootless. http://freedesktop.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/xc/programs/Xserver/fb/fb.h?r1=1.1.4.1root=xorgsortby=dater2=1.1.4.1.2.1only_with_tag=CYGWIN Thank you. -- Kensuke Matsuzaki mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://peppermint.jp
Re: New rootless mode
Kensuke Matsuzaki wrote: -internalwm is actually -multiwindow? No. -multiwindow use hw/xwin/winmultiwindow*.c to handle widow, but -internalwm use miext/rootless/. And -internalwm uses built-in wm in winmultiwindowwm.c too if another window manager is running. oh. This makes it clear. Just go ahead. This sounds very useful. BTW: Torrey wanted to change a rootless definition in fb.h https://freedesktop.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=1737 Can you please take a look? I don't think the change will break anything but I've not the complete insight on the code. It seems no problem. I remember that I added defined(__CYGWIN__) to use miext/rootless. http://freedesktop.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/xc/programs/Xserver/fb/fb.h?r1=1.1.4.1root=xorgsortby=dater2=1.1.4.1.2.1only_with_tag=CYGWIN I'll tell Torrey to go on. bye ago NP: Interlace - Elohim -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gotti.org ICQ: 126018723
New rootless mode
Hi, guys. I'm writing code related mwextwm. Temporally I added -internalwm option. It detects another window manager, and automatically it switches on/off built-in window manager. There are duplicated code for -rootless and -multiwindow and -mwextwm. This will merge those three mode. I have to clean-up, debug and test more. But I want to know direction of this patch before. How do you think? 1. Add -internalwm option? (more better naming?) 2. Replace -rootless and -multiwindow with this. or something else. -- Kensuke Matsuzaki mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://peppermint.jp internalwm-20041030-0050.diff Description: Binary data
Rootless Mode
I have tried the server test series with rootless mode. I find it very usefull. Here is my dumb opinion. We need a Native Microsft-Cygwin Window Manager designed to work in rootless mode. Also FYI. The Window Maker port isnt working with the most recent builds Of the cygwin libraries.
Re: Rootless Mode
Stephen, Kensuke Matsuzaki is working on the Windows-based window manager. If Window Maker is broke, then someone else is gonna have to fix it. I released a few packages with the intention that others would take them over, but no one has. So, if Window Maker is broke, then I will have to pull the package from distribution. Any takers? Harold Bovy, Stephen wrote: I have tried the server test series with rootless mode. I find it very usefull. Here is my dumb opinion. We need a Native Microsft-Cygwin Window Manager designed to work in rootless mode. Also FYI. The Window Maker port isnt working with the most recent builds Of the cygwin libraries.
RE: Rootless Mode
FYI I have been experimenting with exceed window manager and cygwin Integration/synergy. It is interesting to note that I can execute the windowmaker cygwin-port and get it To work natively with the exceed X-window server. The clip , the dock , ect all Pop-up as icons on my windows desktop. Now if this capability could be further refined to work with cygwin in rootless mode, In a manner that is complimentry/compatible/integrated and non-disruptive with the Normal windows desktop and/or other windows, and maybee even try to integrate it With the task/bar .. Then we would have a very powerfull integration technology. Of course unfortunately the window-maker port is currently broken so it is hard To do further experiments -Original Message- From: Bovy, Stephen Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 4:07 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Rootless Mode I have tried the server test series with rootless mode. I find it very usefull. Here is my dumb opinion. We need a Native Microsft-Cygwin Window Manager designed to work in rootless mode. Also FYI. The Window Maker port isnt working with the most recent builds Of the cygwin libraries.
Re: Rootless Mode
Stephen, What was that all about? We are working on a Windows-based window manager. Need I say that again? If Window Maker is broken, then use one of twm, mwm (lesstif package), openbox, etc. Harold Bovy, Stephen wrote: FYI I have been experimenting with exceed window manager and cygwin Integration/synergy. It is interesting to note that I can execute the windowmaker cygwin-port and get it To work natively with the exceed X-window server. The clip , the dock , ect all Pop-up as icons on my windows desktop. Now if this capability could be further refined to work with cygwin in rootless mode, In a manner that is complimentry/compatible/integrated and non-disruptive with the Normal windows desktop and/or other windows, and maybee even try to integrate it With the task/bar .. Then we would have a very powerfull integration technology. Of course unfortunately the window-maker port is currently broken so it is hard To do further experiments -Original Message- From: Bovy, Stephen Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2003 4:07 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: Rootless Mode I have tried the server test series with rootless mode. I find it very usefull. Here is my dumb opinion. We need a Native Microsft-Cygwin Window Manager designed to work in rootless mode. Also FYI. The Window Maker port isnt working with the most recent builds Of the cygwin libraries.
Re: Rootless Mode
I have Window Maker working fine with the recent built. (including rootless) I don't know what stephen is refering to. Yadin. Harold L Hunt II [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Stephen, Kensuke Matsuzaki is working on the Windows-based window manager. If Window Maker is broke, then someone else is gonna have to fix it. I released a few packages with the intention that others would take them over, but no one has. So, if Window Maker is broke, then I will have to pull the package from distribution. Any takers? Harold Bovy, Stephen wrote: I have tried the server test series with rootless mode. I find it very usefull. Here is my dumb opinion. We need a Native Microsft-Cygwin Window Manager designed to work in rootless mode. Also FYI. The Window Maker port isnt working with the most recent builds Of the cygwin libraries.
Re: Rootless Mode
BTW, you have to add to the top of startxwin.bat the line set HOME=XXX where XXX is your home directory, otherwise wmaker is trying to use the variable HOME from windows environment c:\Documents and settings\... which does not work. Yadin Y Goldschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message avl7kv$tup$[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:avl7kv$tup$[EMAIL PROTECTED]... I have Window Maker working fine with the recent built. (including rootless) I don't know what stephen is refering to. Yadin. Harold L Hunt II [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Stephen, Kensuke Matsuzaki is working on the Windows-based window manager. If Window Maker is broke, then someone else is gonna have to fix it. I released a few packages with the intention that others would take them over, but no one has. So, if Window Maker is broke, then I will have to pull the package from distribution. Any takers? Harold Bovy, Stephen wrote: I have tried the server test series with rootless mode. I find it very usefull. Here is my dumb opinion. We need a Native Microsft-Cygwin Window Manager designed to work in rootless mode. Also FYI. The Window Maker port isnt working with the most recent builds Of the cygwin libraries.
Re: Rootless Mode
[snip] Of course unfortunately the window-maker port is currently broken so it is hard To do further experiments Don't know about test builds, but with the latest build WindowMaker works correctly: I use it every day in rootless mode for my job with my Win2K machine. Ciao, Danilo Turina
Re: Rootless mode
Kensuke, Harold, I was just wondering whether it would be possible to create a test build of the X server with this multi-window mode. Obviously there are issues with it but I presume they only come up in multi-window mode? It would just be really nice to see it beginning to work - this is something lots of people have wanted for a long time, congratulations for getting it going! David Harold L Hunt II wrote: JS, Kensuke titled his message ``rootless mode'' when it should really have been titled ``multi-window mode''. The goal of multi-window mode is to create a Windows-window for each top-level X Window, rather than creating one huge window for your entire X desktop. Harold J S wrote: Kensuke, The new patch is an architectual improvement. However, when I run it, if I move a window it gets moved, then it jumps back to its original position and retraces the move path that I took it on, over and over again until I feel like I will throw up. :) I am not sure what is causing this problem, but obviously the queue of messages is not being cleared and is instead being looped through repeatedly. My log file from this session is on the web: http://www.msu.edu/~huntharo/xwin/XWinrl.log.bz2 (33 KiB) The unpacked log file is 800+ KiB. Harold Kensuke Matsuzaki wrote: Harold, It remains only for debugging. Am I correct that the root window is still being drawn, even thought it is not really usable? Is that something that remains to be fixed, or did I have something go wrong with my patching? By the way, this is new patch that integrates XWin and the window manager. Kensuke Matsuzaki How does this patch change what Rootless mode already does? I thought that rootless mode already integrated the window manager? I have windowmaker running, and when I'm in rootless mode the xterms come up with windowmaker frames. Can you integrate with the Windows windows manager? _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Rootless mode
* David Fraser [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-12-12 10:03:53 +0200]: Kensuke, Harold, I was just wondering whether it would be possible to create a test build of the X server with this multi-window mode. Obviously there are issues with it but I presume they only come up in multi-window mode? It would just be really nice to see it beginning to work - this is something lots of people have wanted for a long time, congratulations for getting it going! I wholeheartedly second that; either a test build, or perhaps some instructions on how to take the patch(es) you supplied and build a modified version using the existing Cygwin tools. Is this just a matter of building a modified version of the XWin.exe binary and replacing my current XWin -rootless line with XWin2 -multiwindow in the startx script? I think a lot of us non-programmers would be willing to become beta testers and/or bug reporters if we could get our foot in the door. :) Also, someone else suggested making the actual Cygwin/XFree86 control window (is that the right term?) minimize to the system tray rather than the taskbar; I think this would be a good idea too... -- John Buttery (Web page temporarily unavailable) msg04456/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Rootless mode
* Kensuke Matsuzaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-12-12 21:10:54 +0900]: To build XWin.exe, please read http://xfree86.cygwin.com/docs/cg/cygwin-xfree-cg.html I should have figured that out without being told, sorry. I'm now getting the source via CVS. There sure is a lot of it; I hope x86 is still a standard architecture when it finishes. :p The patch can be applied as shown in the following command $pwd ~/x-devel/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xwin $bunzip2 rootless.patch.bz2 $patch -p1 rootless.patch I edited xc/config/cf/cygwin.rules to disable version controlled .dll, but is it right? I don't understand this question. If you're asking if a change you made causes your instructions to break, I'll let you know when I try them. When I get a modified version of XWin.exe out of this process, can other people just download it and drop it in to their own Cygwin installs? (presumably they would back up their current XWin.exe first) Let me know...if this is the case, I'll put my modified version online somewhere for people who don't have the patience/bandwidth/disk space to build their own. After the patch is applied, do I just go back up to the root directory and run make? Then find the built XWin.exe and copy it over to the directory where the current one lives? -- John Buttery (Web page temporarily unavailable) msg04463/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Rootless mode
-multiwindow is not stable, so I thought binary is not needed. XWin.exe is here. http://peppermint.jp/products/asis/XWin.2002_12_09.exe.bz2 And libfreetype 2.1.1 is here. http://peppermint.jp/temp/libfreetype.tar.bz2 Kensuke Matsuzaki
Re: Rootless mode
Kensuke, Did you ever look into the bug I reported where a dragged window just keeps on repeating the dragging and never stops moving? Seems to be a problem with the message queue not being cleared properly. My email is in the list archives if you missed it. Harold Kensuke Matsuzaki wrote: I wholeheartedly second that; either a test build, or perhaps some instructions on how to take the patch(es) you supplied and build a modified version using the existing Cygwin tools. To build XWin.exe, please read http://xfree86.cygwin.com/docs/cg/cygwin-xfree-cg.html The patch can be applied as shown in the following command $pwd ~/x-devel/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xwin $bunzip2 rootless.patch.bz2 $patch -p1 rootless.patch I edited xc/config/cf/cygwin.rules to disable version controlled .dll, but is it right? Is this just a matter of building a modified version of the XWin.exe binary and replacing my current XWin -rootless line with XWin2 -multiwindow in the startx script? Yes. Kensuke Matsuzaki
Re: Rootless mode
David, I have not released a test version because the version that Kensuke sent me didn't work at all. It just kept repeating the dragging of a window if you ever moved one. I sent a report to the list but he never responded. I didn't want to bug him about it for awhile in case he had seen it... but it seems now that he never saw it. I will release a test version once there are no obvious bugs. I mean, are we really going to benefit from 100 people saying ``multiwindow mode doesn't work, it keeps doing foo''? I don't think so :) Harold David Fraser wrote: Kensuke, Harold, I was just wondering whether it would be possible to create a test build of the X server with this multi-window mode. Obviously there are issues with it but I presume they only come up in multi-window mode? It would just be really nice to see it beginning to work - this is something lots of people have wanted for a long time, congratulations for getting it going! David Harold L Hunt II wrote: JS, Kensuke titled his message ``rootless mode'' when it should really have been titled ``multi-window mode''. The goal of multi-window mode is to create a Windows-window for each top-level X Window, rather than creating one huge window for your entire X desktop. Harold J S wrote: Kensuke, The new patch is an architectual improvement. However, when I run it, if I move a window it gets moved, then it jumps back to its original position and retraces the move path that I took it on, over and over again until I feel like I will throw up. :) I am not sure what is causing this problem, but obviously the queue of messages is not being cleared and is instead being looped through repeatedly. My log file from this session is on the web: http://www.msu.edu/~huntharo/xwin/XWinrl.log.bz2 (33 KiB) The unpacked log file is 800+ KiB. Harold Kensuke Matsuzaki wrote: Harold, It remains only for debugging. Am I correct that the root window is still being drawn, even thought it is not really usable? Is that something that remains to be fixed, or did I have something go wrong with my patching? By the way, this is new patch that integrates XWin and the window manager. Kensuke Matsuzaki How does this patch change what Rootless mode already does? I thought that rootless mode already integrated the window manager? I have windowmaker running, and when I'm in rootless mode the xterms come up with windowmaker frames. Can you integrate with the Windows windows manager? _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Rootless mode
Please do not release your own test version. As I said, I am waiting for the repeating window movement to be looked into and possibly fixed. I do not wish to get lots of duplicate bug reports for such an obvious bug. If Kensuke says it doesn't happen with his version, then I will rebuild mine and try it again. Harold John Buttery wrote: * Kensuke Matsuzaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-12-12 21:10:54 +0900]: To build XWin.exe, please read http://xfree86.cygwin.com/docs/cg/cygwin-xfree-cg.html I should have figured that out without being told, sorry. I'm now getting the source via CVS. There sure is a lot of it; I hope x86 is still a standard architecture when it finishes. :p The patch can be applied as shown in the following command $pwd ~/x-devel/xc/programs/Xserver/hw/xwin $bunzip2 rootless.patch.bz2 $patch -p1 rootless.patch I edited xc/config/cf/cygwin.rules to disable version controlled .dll, but is it right? I don't understand this question. If you're asking if a change you made causes your instructions to break, I'll let you know when I try them. When I get a modified version of XWin.exe out of this process, can other people just download it and drop it in to their own Cygwin installs? (presumably they would back up their current XWin.exe first) Let me know...if this is the case, I'll put my modified version online somewhere for people who don't have the patience/bandwidth/disk space to build their own. After the patch is applied, do I just go back up to the root directory and run make? Then find the built XWin.exe and copy it over to the directory where the current one lives?
Re: Rootless mode
On Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:22:45 -0500, Harold L Hunt II [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David, I have not released a test version because the version that Kensuke sent me didn't work at all. It just kept repeating the dragging of a window if you ever moved one. I sent a report to the list but he never responded. I didn't want to bug him about it for awhile in case he had seen it... but it seems now that he never saw it. I will release a test version once there are no obvious bugs. I mean, are we really going to benefit from 100 people saying ``multiwindow mode doesn't work, it keeps doing foo''? I don't think so :) I'll add to the description of the bug. If I try to launch any application (xterm, for instance) the window just slowly moves diagonally across the screen regardless of if I try to move it. Eventually it disappears, never to be seen again. If I intercept it and move it, it behanves as you reported. -- Jonathan Fosburgh Software Systems Specialist III AIX/SAN Administrator University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center Houston, TX
Re: Rootless mode
* Harold L Hunt II [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2002-12-12 11:24:25 -0500]: Please do not release your own test version. As I said, I am waiting for the repeating window movement to be looked into and possibly fixed. I do not wish to get lots of duplicate bug reports for such an obvious bug. If Kensuke says it doesn't happen with his version, then I will rebuild mine and try it again. OK; sorry, I guess I got a little ahead of myself. I'm one of those people that's been waiting for a Windows-as-window-manager X server for a long time, so I was excited. :) -- John Buttery (Web page temporarily unavailable) msg04473/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Rootless mode
Harold, I could not reproduce that bug, but now I found that this bug occur when Show window contents while dragging enabled. Maximizing a window never stop too. Matsuzaki Kensuke
Re: Rootless mode
Kensuke, Hmm... that sounds about right. Windows 2000 and Windows XP have that option on by default, I believe. Are you going to try to debug this? Harold Matsuzaki Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Harold, I could not reproduce that bug, but now I found that this bug occur when Show window contents while dragging enabled. Maximizing a window never stop too. Matsuzaki Kensuke
RE: Rootless mode
This may be obvious, but the difference between the two is that Windows sends you a bunch of messages when you're dragging the window when fulldrag is in effect... So it might be some message handler repositioning the window during one of those notifications... Maybe a WM_SIZE or WM_WINDOWPOSCHANGING... Anyhow, I think running spy and just looking in on the stream of messages that a window doing fulldrag receives could be a way to figure out which message. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Harold L Hunt Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode Kensuke, Hmm... that sounds about right. Windows 2000 and Windows XP have that option on by default, I believe. Are you going to try to debug this? Harold Matsuzaki Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Harold, I could not reproduce that bug, but now I found that this bug occur when Show window contents while dragging enabled. Maximizing a window never stop too. Matsuzaki Kensuke
Re: Rootless mode
Harold L Hunt II wrote: David, I have not released a test version because the version that Kensuke sent me didn't work at all. It just kept repeating the dragging of a window if you ever moved one. I sent a report to the list but he never responded. I didn't want to bug him about it for awhile in case he had seen it... but it seems now that he never saw it. I will release a test version once there are no obvious bugs. I mean, are we really going to benefit from 100 people saying ``multiwindow mode doesn't work, it keeps doing foo''? I don't think so :) Harold OK, I see the reason now, thanks for explaining. In the mean time has been quite fun getting it to run :-) I'm quite happy with not moving windows as long as I know that it's to be avoided. David -- Micro$oft is not an answer. It is a question. The answer is 'no'.
Re: Rootless mode -multiwindow bug
I was able to reproduce the -multiwindow moving bug on two Win2k machines, and Show window contents while dragging does not seem to have any effect on those machines. (I already had it switched off) Neither does disabling ActiveDesktop help.
RE: Rootless mode
Looking at Kensuke's code, he uses an internal queue to store messages that need to be processed by child windows. For some reason this queue is not being properly reset when the messages are processed. Or, it could be as simple as returning the wrong value after processing these messages, causing Windows to send them again. Harold -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jean-Claude Gervais Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Rootless mode This may be obvious, but the difference between the two is that Windows sends you a bunch of messages when you're dragging the window when fulldrag is in effect... So it might be some message handler repositioning the window during one of those notifications... Maybe a WM_SIZE or WM_WINDOWPOSCHANGING... Anyhow, I think running spy and just looking in on the stream of messages that a window doing fulldrag receives could be a way to figure out which message. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Harold L Hunt Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode Kensuke, Hmm... that sounds about right. Windows 2000 and Windows XP have that option on by default, I believe. Are you going to try to debug this? Harold Matsuzaki Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Harold, I could not reproduce that bug, but now I found that this bug occur when Show window contents while dragging enabled. Maximizing a window never stop too. Matsuzaki Kensuke
RE: Rootless mode
Other than the WM_PAINT message, I don't think Windows ever sends the same message again. On a WM_PAINT, if you do not mark validate the region by calling BeginPaint and EndPaint and return from processing the WM_PAINT, you WILL receive a WM_PAINT again. On the other hand, if you call GetMessage without PM_REMOVE, the message retrieved is not removed from the queue. But if that were the case, the SAME message would keep being retrieved because the Windows message queue is more or less a FIFO structure. There might be some recursion at work here though, because if the child windows notify the parent and in response the parent posts or sends the same message again, things could get hairy. Probably not though, because they flood of messages does stop, right? I'm sure running Spy++ would yield interesting information. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Harold L Hunt II Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 5:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Rootless mode Looking at Kensuke's code, he uses an internal queue to store messages that need to be processed by child windows. For some reason this queue is not being properly reset when the messages are processed. Or, it could be as simple as returning the wrong value after processing these messages, causing Windows to send them again. Harold -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Jean-Claude Gervais Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Rootless mode This may be obvious, but the difference between the two is that Windows sends you a bunch of messages when you're dragging the window when fulldrag is in effect... So it might be some message handler repositioning the window during one of those notifications... Maybe a WM_SIZE or WM_WINDOWPOSCHANGING... Anyhow, I think running spy and just looking in on the stream of messages that a window doing fulldrag receives could be a way to figure out which message. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Harold L Hunt Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 1:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode Kensuke, Hmm... that sounds about right. Windows 2000 and Windows XP have that option on by default, I believe. Are you going to try to debug this? Harold Matsuzaki Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Harold, I could not reproduce that bug, but now I found that this bug occur when Show window contents while dragging enabled. Maximizing a window never stop too. Matsuzaki Kensuke
Re: Rootless mode
Kensuke, The new patch is an architectual improvement. However, when I run it, if I move a window it gets moved, then it jumps back to its original position and retraces the move path that I took it on, over and over again until I feel like I will throw up. :) I am not sure what is causing this problem, but obviously the queue of messages is not being cleared and is instead being looped through repeatedly. My log file from this session is on the web: http://www.msu.edu/~huntharo/xwin/XWinrl.log.bz2 (33 KiB) The unpacked log file is 800+ KiB. Harold Kensuke Matsuzaki wrote: Harold, It remains only for debugging. Am I correct that the root window is still being drawn, even thought it is not really usable? Is that something that remains to be fixed, or did I have something go wrong with my patching? By the way, this is new patch that integrates XWin and the window manager. Kensuke Matsuzaki How does this patch change what Rootless mode already does? I thought that rootless mode already integrated the window manager? I have windowmaker running, and when I'm in rootless mode the xterms come up with windowmaker frames. Can you integrate with the Windows windows manager? _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Rootless mode
JS, Kensuke titled his message ``rootless mode'' when it should really have been titled ``multi-window mode''. The goal of multi-window mode is to create a Windows-window for each top-level X Window, rather than creating one huge window for your entire X desktop. Harold J S wrote: Kensuke, The new patch is an architectual improvement. However, when I run it, if I move a window it gets moved, then it jumps back to its original position and retraces the move path that I took it on, over and over again until I feel like I will throw up. :) I am not sure what is causing this problem, but obviously the queue of messages is not being cleared and is instead being looped through repeatedly. My log file from this session is on the web: http://www.msu.edu/~huntharo/xwin/XWinrl.log.bz2 (33 KiB) The unpacked log file is 800+ KiB. Harold Kensuke Matsuzaki wrote: Harold, It remains only for debugging. Am I correct that the root window is still being drawn, even thought it is not really usable? Is that something that remains to be fixed, or did I have something go wrong with my patching? By the way, this is new patch that integrates XWin and the window manager. Kensuke Matsuzaki How does this patch change what Rootless mode already does? I thought that rootless mode already integrated the window manager? I have windowmaker running, and when I'm in rootless mode the xterms come up with windowmaker frames. Can you integrate with the Windows windows manager? _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Rootless mode
Kensuke, The new patch is an architectual improvement. However, when I run it, if I move a window it gets moved, then it jumps back to its original position and retraces the move path that I took it on, over and over again until I feel like I will throw up. :) I am not sure what is causing this problem, but obviously the queue of messages is not being cleared and is instead being looped through repeatedly. My log file from this session is on the web: http://www.msu.edu/~huntharo/xwin/XWinrl.log.bz2 (33 KiB) The unpacked log file is 800+ KiB. Harold Kensuke Matsuzaki wrote: Harold, It remains only for debugging. Am I correct that the root window is still being drawn, even thought it is not really usable? Is that something that remains to be fixed, or did I have something go wrong with my patching? By the way, this is new patch that integrates XWin and the window manager. Kensuke Matsuzaki
RE: Rootless mode
Kensuke, Very interesting patch. I have compiled a version of the multiwindow executable and checked it out. Am I correct that the root window is still being drawn, even thought it is not really usable? Is that something that remains to be fixed, or did I have something go wrong with my patching? Harold -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Kensuke Matsuzaki Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 11:09 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Rootless mode Hello, I am writing code for rootless mode. It creates Windows window for each X Window. I add -multiwindow option. With this I can use taskbar, move and resize window. But this sometimes does strange behaivor, and code is not clean. It seems to be difficult for me to write complete rootless mode, so those who are interested, please help. Kensuke Matsuzaki
Re: Rootless mode
Harold, It remains only for debugging. Am I correct that the root window is still being drawn, even thought it is not really usable? Is that something that remains to be fixed, or did I have something go wrong with my patching? By the way, this is new patch that integrates XWin and the window manager. Kensuke Matsuzaki rootless.patch.bz2 Description: Binary data
Re: Rootless mode
Kensuke, Wow, you have been busy. Could you run Cygwin's ``d2u'' on winwindow.h to convert the DOS end-of-line characters to UNIX end-of-line characters and run the patch again? Just a quick question: does the window manager have to be started seperately from XWin.exe, or does XWin.exe take care of launching the window manager when you specify -multiwindow ? Thanks for your hard work, Harold Kensuke Matsuzaki wrote: Hello, I am writing code for rootless mode. It creates Windows window for each X Window. I add -multiwindow option. With this I can use taskbar, move and resize window. But this sometimes does strange behaivor, and code is not clean. It seems to be difficult for me to write complete rootless mode, so those who are interested, please help. Kensuke Matsuzaki
Re: Rootless mode
Harold, Sorry, I forgot to think about end-of-line character. Just a quick question: does the window manager have to be started seperately from XWin.exe, or does XWin.exe take care of launching the nwindow manager when you specify -multiwindow ? It need to be started separately. So $XWin -multiwindow $mwwm /dev/null Kensuke rootless.patch.bz2 Description: Binary data
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
So how was it that you start rootless mode again? Just kidding. I guess I should have mentioned that I was about to go on vacation for over a week after I sent my last message. My impression of XOpenWin was that it was going to replace the low-level graphic calls from Windows with calls to X. Ambitious, but sounds like a great deal of overhead. This does solve some of the problems you'll run into trying to get Windows to manage X applications, though. I'll have to join the win32-x11 mailing list and see what's happening there. The current direction you're taking is to allow Windows to manage the X windows (please keep this a separate feature from -rootless). I hope somebody's thinking about keeping this compatible with XOpenWin, since there could be some serious benefits to using both together. There are a number of other ways that integration between Windows and X could have been approached, although these are the most straightforward approaches. Both approaches wrap everything of interest, albeit at opposite ends (and the end results look totally different). But right now I'm interested in something much simpler: just removing focus from all windows when X itself loses focus. I've looked at this briefly, but I'd better follow up in another e-mail, rather than causing this thread to fork too much. -Jerry
Re: Rootless Mode Anyone ???
OK. Whose turn is it to chastise this? RTFMLA! At 12:56 2002-11-11, Bovy, Stephen wrote: I would like to try the new rootless mode, but I cant find any Info on how to use it ... Any suggestions ???
Re: Rootless Mode Anyone ???
Stephen, Use the ``-rootless'' command line parameter for XWin.exe. Harold Bovy, Stephen wrote: I would like to try the new rootless mode, but I cant find any Info on how to use it ... Any suggestions ???
Rootless mode with Query mode
Hi, If I start XWin with the following parameters, :0 -rootless -query hostname I get the Redhat login dialog box, which appears with NO background. This is good. Then when I log in, whether I select GNOME or KDE, the KDE/GNOME desktop background always appears. Is there a way to prevent this? I'd like to have the Gnome or KDE taskbar and start menu, but not a desktop like it does. And even if I configure KDE/GNOME to have NO desktop, they both still want to at least draw a color background. Anyone?
Re: [patch]Rootless mode resouce leak
Excellent. I have put this in my queue. Harold Matsuzaki Kensuke wrote: Hello, Here is a patch which make it sure that rootless mode delete region. And I cleaned up the code for handling region. I tested it, and DeleteObject or SetWindowRgn are surely called for every CreateRectRegion. But still the memory size increased. Please help. Mastuzaki Kensuke.
HOWTO rootless mode??
I can't find any documentation on how to use rootless mode (or even what it is)? How so I start rootless mode? Can anyone point me to some sourses of help? Is it available with the latest (stable) distribution of cygwin/xfree? Thanks, Lars. -- Lars Jensen, TMCC/Vista B200, 7000 Dandini Blvd, Reno NV 89512-3999. Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.scsr.nevada.edu/~jensen Tel: 775.673.7113 FAX: 775.674.7592
Re: HOWTO rootless mode??
Gr... At 13:24 2002-11-05, you wrote: I can't find any documentation on how to use rootless mode (or even what it is)? If you don't know what it is, how do you know _of_ if? Wherever you heard about it (could it be this list?), that's where you'll find other answers. But that does require looking... How do I start rootless mode? XWin -rootless Imagine that! Can anyone point me to some sources of help? http://cygwin.com/ http://cygwin.com/lists.html http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/ Is it available with the latest (stable) distribution of cygwin/xfree? XFree86-xserv 4.2.0-15 (experimental) Thanks. Lars. Randall Schulz Mountain View, CA USA
Re: HOWTO rootless mode??
Is it worth asking if the option has been added to the XWin.1 manpage? (If it isn't, then... er...) Kdt Randall R Schulz was recently quoted as saying... Gr... At 13:24 2002-11-05, you wrote: I can't find any documentation on how to use rootless mode (or even what it is)?
Re: HOWTO rootless mode??
At 13:41 2002-11-05, you wrote: Is it worth asking if the option has been added to the XWin.1 manpage? Why don't you just find out for yourself? (If it isn't, then... er...) Er... what?? Say what you mean, please. If you don't find the software or the documentation acceptable, then you know what to do. Hint: Put up or shut up. Kdt Randall R Schulz was recently quoted as saying... Gr... At 13:24 2002-11-05, you wrote: I can't find any documentation on how to use rootless mode (or even what it is)?
Re: HOWTO rootless mode??
Randall, Be nice. I posted an announcement for XFree86-xserv-4.2.0-15, but I did not mention that you should use the ``-rootless'' parameter for the rootless mode. Rootless mode is in the stable release, but it is still considered experimental because it may leak memory and it may have certain undesireable behaviors. Although, it seems that rootless mode is pretty much complete because there have not been any significant complaints. I did a little SNAFU with respect to the man page because I updated the man page, but I did not roll a new release of the man pages package. I should probably do that, but I don't think many users will be pleased with redownloading all XFree86 man pages just to get one new one. I will have to think about that one. Harold Randall R Schulz wrote: Gr... At 13:24 2002-11-05, you wrote: I can't find any documentation on how to use rootless mode (or even what it is)? If you don't know what it is, how do you know _of_ if? Wherever you heard about it (could it be this list?), that's where you'll find other answers. But that does require looking... How do I start rootless mode? XWin -rootless Imagine that! Can anyone point me to some sources of help? http://cygwin.com/ http://cygwin.com/lists.html http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/ Is it available with the latest (stable) distribution of cygwin/xfree? XFree86-xserv 4.2.0-15 (experimental) Thanks. Lars. Randall Schulz Mountain View, CA USA
Re: HOWTO rootless mode??
At 13:56 2002-11-05, you wrote: Randall, Be nice. remorseful headHung='true' Yes, sir. /remorseful
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
Hi, From: Gerald S. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:28:04 -0500 ::I agree -rootless rocks. And a -systray option would be great. It's rocking realy cool! :-) ::But one thing that I'd really like to be able to do now that ::-rootless is around is be able to have all X windows become ::inactive when a Windows window is selected. When I switch to ::X-Windows, all of the Windows-style windows become inactive. ::I'd like the reverse to happen as well. Otherwise, when I ::switch out of X-Windows, the most-recently-selected window ::in X is shown as active even though it isn't. It's actually ::worse than that, since a cursor is shown in both windows. If you just want the cursor to disappear from the xterm in X, you may be able to use the unclutter program, found in X related contrib sites as 'unclutter-8.tar.Z'. Unfortunately, the xterm will be kept in 'activated' mode, even when cursor disappears from the screen. (Well accutually, unclutter was only made to hide the cursor...) Just my $0.02 of info... Haro =--- _ _Munehiro (haro) Matsuda -|- /_\ |_|_| Kubota Graphics Technology Inc. /|\ |_| |_|_| 2-8-8 Shinjuku, Shinjuku-ku Tokyo 160-0022, Japan Tel: +81-3-3225-0931 Fax: +81-3-3225-0930 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
Gerald S. Williams wrote: Ultimately, what you really want is the ability to go both ways--let X applications be managed by Windows and let Windows applications be managed by X window managers (like LiteStep only allowing X calls all the way down--I think LiteStep uses GTK or something). Of course, this can get a bit complicated, especially when the services aren't quite the same between Windows and X. Well, that is not an opinion that I have ever seen expressed here to date and I have not seen any developer announce that they are aiming to provide such functionality. It has always been my understanding that 99% of people are interested in having MS Windows manage the X Windows windows. Harold
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
Guess I'm in the 1% then, I prefer fvwm to any other window manager I have seen yet. It would be very, very cool to have fvwm on Windows. /W On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Harold L Hunt II wrote: Gerald S. Williams wrote: Ultimately, what you really want is the ability to go both ways--let X applications be managed by Windows and let Windows applications be managed by X window managers (like LiteStep only allowing X calls all the way down--I think LiteStep uses GTK or something). Of course, this can get a bit complicated, especially when the services aren't quite the same between Windows and X. Well, that is not an opinion that I have ever seen expressed here to date and I have not seen any developer announce that they are aiming to provide such functionality. It has always been my understanding that 99% of people are interested in having MS Windows manage the X Windows windows. Harold +---+ | Home: http://wilper.cjb.net | | E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| +---+
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
Harold L Hunt II wrote: Well, that is not an opinion that I have ever seen expressed here to date and I have not seen any developer announce that they are aiming to provide such functionality. It has always been my understanding that 99% of people are interested in having MS Windows manage the X Windows windows. Isn't what the X client wrapper for Win apps (win2x, gdi2X, xgdi, win4x, i-don't-know-what-the-name-is-now) is aiming at? It's actually a broader goal than that but one of the result will be that the Windows apps will be managed by the X windows manager. Gerald, you may want to look at the thread http://sources.redhat.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/2002-09/msg00181.html (and http://sources.redhat.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/2002-09/msg00094.html) for further details Jehan
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
Wilhelm, Wilhelm Person wrote: Guess I'm in the 1% then, I prefer fvwm to any other window manager I have seen yet. It would be very, very cool to have fvwm on Windows. /W Are you referring to just having fvwm available for Cygwin/XFree86 or are you referring to having the additional feature of current-window-focus synchronization between fvwm and MS Windows? If you just want fvwm, it is already available as a Cygwin/XFree86 package via setup.exe. If you want the later feature, well, then that is what we are discussing. Harold
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
Right now I use cygwin xfree for terminal emulation, more or less. But it would be nice to be able to use an X windowmanager instead of Explorer. So all the applications, even stuff like IE or WinAMP, are managed through the X window manager. As I understand it the current efforts with a rootless mode are going in the other direction, where X apps are managed by Explorer. /W On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Harold L Hunt II wrote: Wilhelm, Wilhelm Person wrote: Guess I'm in the 1% then, I prefer fvwm to any other window manager I have seen yet. It would be very, very cool to have fvwm on Windows. /W Are you referring to just having fvwm available for Cygwin/XFree86 or are you referring to having the additional feature of current-window-focus synchronization between fvwm and MS Windows? If you just want fvwm, it is already available as a Cygwin/XFree86 package via setup.exe. If you want the later feature, well, then that is what we are discussing. Harold +---+ | Home: http://wilper.cjb.net | | E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| +---+
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
Wilhelm, Oh yeah, I see your point. I don''t want to start up that discussion again :) Harold Wilhelm Person wrote: Right now I use cygwin xfree for terminal emulation, more or less. But it would be nice to be able to use an X windowmanager instead of Explorer. So all the applications, even stuff like IE or WinAMP, are managed through the X window manager. As I understand it the current efforts with a rootless mode are going in the other direction, where X apps are managed by Explorer. /W On Fri, 1 Nov 2002, Harold L Hunt II wrote: Wilhelm, Wilhelm Person wrote: Guess I'm in the 1% then, I prefer fvwm to any other window manager I have seen yet. It would be very, very cool to have fvwm on Windows. /W Are you referring to just having fvwm available for Cygwin/XFree86 or are you referring to having the additional feature of current-window-focus synchronization between fvwm and MS Windows? If you just want fvwm, it is already available as a Cygwin/XFree86 package via setup.exe. If you want the later feature, well, then that is what we are discussing. Harold +---+ | Home: http://wilper.cjb.net | | E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]| +---+
RE: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
There was some discussion on the list a while back regarding this very thing. They are now using the win32-x11 mailing list. Here's a message announcing the genesis of the project: http://www.cygwin.com/ml/win32-x11/2002-q3/msg00019.html From: Gerald S. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Thomas Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harold L Hunt II [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: rootless mode and mousing to other windows Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:51:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from alageremail2.agere.com ([192.19.192.110]) by mc4-f34.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Fri, 1 Nov 2002 07:51:55 -0800 Received: from alcerelay.agere.com (alcerelay.agere.com [128.94.213.32])by alageremail2.agere.com (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id gA1FpsN15976;Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:51:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from almail.agere.com by alcerelay.agere.com (8.9.3+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2)id KAA26797 for ; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:51:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from PAI820G1006951 by almail.agere.com (8.9.3+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2)id KAA09272; Fri, 1 Nov 2002 10:51:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600. Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Nov 2002 15:51:56.0040 (UTC) FILETIME=[9AC89080:01C281BE] Thomas Chadwick wrote: Is it as simple as patching XWin to call XSetInputFocus() with a focus argument of None when MS Windows informs it that it has lost focus? That's the type of thing I was hoping for. Harold L Hunt II wrote: I don't think that such interaction between the X Windows window manager and, essentially, the Windows window manager is going to be useful in the end, and it would be overly complicated to implement such an interim solution. Is that really a fair assessment? For Windows interaction, I'm only talking about hooking into the focus events. This would be a useful addition even without rootless mode or true Windows integration. And it looks like those events are already hooked in order to deal with keyboard modes. Which needs some debugging anyway, since X sometimes gets confused about caps lock (granted I've seen this on Sun workstations also, but not in a very long time). If there's any complexity, it's purely on the X side, and IMO it's something that should be addressed if it hasn't already. Shouldn't there be a way to tell X that you've removed focus from it entirely? Remember that the ultimate solution is to write calls that make Windows the window manager for our X apps, so your concern would no longer be an issue. I urge you to focus on the later solution, rather than trying to send signals between two window managers. That's a bit too much for me to get involved in right now. Besides, I'm not really interested in using the Windows shell for managing X-Windows. Ultimately, what you really want is the ability to go both ways--let X applications be managed by Windows and let Windows applications be managed by X window managers (like LiteStep only allowing X calls all the way down--I think LiteStep uses GTK or something). Of course, this can get a bit complicated, especially when the services aren't quite the same between Windows and X. But I suspect others with more experience in XFree86 are already thinking about these things. For now, I wanted to start small. -Jerry _ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
Looking for ideas to fix x2x in rootless mode...
I'm hoping some folks on the ML might help me brainstorm a solution to fixing x2x in rootless mode... For those of you not familiar with x2x, it's a handy utility that gives you a dual-headed X display if you have side-by-side workstations both running X (one is designated the from display, the other the to display). It does this by simply grabbing the pointer and keyboard focus on the from display, and generating fake pointer and keyboard events on the to display whenever it receives pointer or keyboard events from the from display. In my particular case, the from display is a PC running Cygwin/XFree86, and the to display is an RS/6000 Workstation. The trouble with rootless mode is that when my pointer leaves the X server region, x2x no longer gets any pointer events from the from display. This has the effect of restricting my pointer movements on the to display to areas that are occupied by X clients on the from display. I tried patching x2x by using the Windows API calls SetCapture(HWND hwnd) and ReleaseCapture() at the same time x2x does XGrabPointer() and XUnGrabPointer() respectively. However, the Capture fails. If I interpret the MSDN documentation correctly, I think it's because the x2x.exe thread does not own the HWND it's trying to do the Capture on (XWin.exe does). I suppose I could try to overcome this by patching the XGrabPointer() and XUnGrabPointer() functions in the XFree86 source directly. This would result in XWin doing the SetCapture as a result of calling XGrabPointer() from x2x. I haven't actually tried this, however, because it occurs to me that I have an additional problem. Again, if I interpret the scant documentation properly, it looks to me that while SetCapture may grab the pointer, clicking a mouse button while outside the X server region will cause the capture to be released and the mouse button event to go to whatever MS Windows client is under the pointer at the time of the click. This would have the effect of letting me point to any region in the to display as long as I don't press a mouse button. Not very useful. Perhaps there is a different API call which keeps a stronger hold of the pointer than SetCapture()? How about calling XWarpPointer() from x2x to keep the pointer from leaving the X server region? Any other ideas? _ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
Is it as simple as patching XWin to call XSetInputFocus() with a focus argument of None when MS Windows informs it that it has lost focus? From: Gerald S. Williams [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: rootless mode and mousing to other windows Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:28:04 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from sources.redhat.com ([209.249.29.67]) by mc1-f6.law16.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:28:19 -0800 Received: (qmail 26023 invoked by alias); 31 Oct 2002 18:28:14 - Received: (qmail 25959 invoked from network); 31 Oct 2002 18:28:13 - Received: from unknown (HELO alageremail2.agere.com) (192.19.192.110) by sources.redhat.com with SMTP; 31 Oct 2002 18:28:13 - Received: from alerelay.agere.com (alerelay.agere.com [135.14.2.184])by alageremail2.agere.com (8.10.2+Sun/8.10.2) with ESMTP id g9VISCN09008for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from almail.agere.com by alerelay.agere.com (8.9.3+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2)id NAA20979 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:28:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from PAI820G1006951 by almail.agere.com (8.9.3+Sun/EMS-1.5 sol2)id NAA07541; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 13:28:08 -0500 (EST) Mailing-List: contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]; run by ezmlm Precedence: bulk List-Unsubscribe: mailto:cygwin-xfree-unsubscribe-j_tetazoo=hotmail.com;cygwin.com List-Subscribe: mailto:cygwin-xfree-subscribe;cygwin.com List-Archive: http://sources.redhat.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/ List-Post: mailto:cygwin-xfree;cygwin.com List-Help: mailto:cygwin-xfree-help;cygwin.com, http://sources.redhat.com/ml/#faqs Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mail-Followup-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivered-To: mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600. Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 Oct 2002 18:28:19.0613 (UTC) FILETIME=[496A6CD0:01C2810B] I agree -rootless rocks. And a -systray option would be great. But one thing that I'd really like to be able to do now that -rootless is around is be able to have all X windows become inactive when a Windows window is selected. When I switch to X-Windows, all of the Windows-style windows become inactive. I'd like the reverse to happen as well. Otherwise, when I switch out of X-Windows, the most-recently-selected window in X is shown as active even though it isn't. It's actually worse than that, since a cursor is shown in both windows. I'm not sure what this is equivalent to in X terms. Perhaps mousing to another screen? Has anyone given any thought to this? I'd be willing to take a shot at an implementation if given enough of a nudge in the right direction. -Jerry Williams _ Choose an Internet access plan right for you -- try MSN! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
Re: Looking for ideas to fix x2x in rootless mode...
Thomas, Your simplist fix is to add a command-line parameter to XWin.exe that tells it to grab the Windows cursor for you and keep trapping mouse events until the focus is given to another app via either Alt+Tab or by clicking another app's menu on the task bar. You wouldn't be able to ``click-through'' to put the focus on Windows applications, but at least you would be able to see those other apps in the background. Harold Thomas Chadwick wrote: I'm hoping some folks on the ML might help me brainstorm a solution to fixing x2x in rootless mode... For those of you not familiar with x2x, it's a handy utility that gives you a dual-headed X display if you have side-by-side workstations both running X (one is designated the from display, the other the to display). It does this by simply grabbing the pointer and keyboard focus on the from display, and generating fake pointer and keyboard events on the to display whenever it receives pointer or keyboard events from the from display. In my particular case, the from display is a PC running Cygwin/XFree86, and the to display is an RS/6000 Workstation. The trouble with rootless mode is that when my pointer leaves the X server region, x2x no longer gets any pointer events from the from display. This has the effect of restricting my pointer movements on the to display to areas that are occupied by X clients on the from display. I tried patching x2x by using the Windows API calls SetCapture(HWND hwnd) and ReleaseCapture() at the same time x2x does XGrabPointer() and XUnGrabPointer() respectively. However, the Capture fails. If I interpret the MSDN documentation correctly, I think it's because the x2x.exe thread does not own the HWND it's trying to do the Capture on (XWin.exe does). I suppose I could try to overcome this by patching the XGrabPointer() and XUnGrabPointer() functions in the XFree86 source directly. This would result in XWin doing the SetCapture as a result of calling XGrabPointer() from x2x. I haven't actually tried this, however, because it occurs to me that I have an additional problem. Again, if I interpret the scant documentation properly, it looks to me that while SetCapture may grab the pointer, clicking a mouse button while outside the X server region will cause the capture to be released and the mouse button event to go to whatever MS Windows client is under the pointer at the time of the click. This would have the effect of letting me point to any region in the to display as long as I don't press a mouse button. Not very useful. Perhaps there is a different API call which keeps a stronger hold of the pointer than SetCapture()? How about calling XWarpPointer() from x2x to keep the pointer from leaving the X server region? Any other ideas? _ Broadband? Dial-up? Get reliable MSN Internet Access. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
Re: rootless mode and mousing to other windows
I don't think that such interaction between the X Windows window manager and, essentially, the Windows window manager is going to be useful in the end, and it would be overly complicated to implement such an interim solution. Remember that the ultimate solution is to write calls that make Windows the window manager for our X apps, so your concern would no longer be an issue. I urge you to focus on the later solution, rather than trying to send signals between two window managers. Harold Gerald S. Williams wrote: I agree -rootless rocks. And a -systray option would be great. But one thing that I'd really like to be able to do now that -rootless is around is be able to have all X windows become inactive when a Windows window is selected. When I switch to X-Windows, all of the Windows-style windows become inactive. I'd like the reverse to happen as well. Otherwise, when I switch out of X-Windows, the most-recently-selected window in X is shown as active even though it isn't. It's actually worse than that, since a cursor is shown in both windows. I'm not sure what this is equivalent to in X terms. Perhaps mousing to another screen? Has anyone given any thought to this? I'd be willing to take a shot at an implementation if given enough of a nudge in the right direction. -Jerry Williams
Rootless mode only works on one monitor
Hi! Am running Cygwin and Test67 of XWin.exe, a GF4 Ti4200 and a nView-enhanced desktop (which windows sees as one monitor at 2560x1024, not as two 1280x1024). Rootless mode is really cool, but the windows only shows on one of the screens (the primary). Also, when running with a root window, I can get it to strectch across both screens, but I get the same bug that was reported a while ago: a white part on the right side. Looks like only the 2048 leftmost pixel columns are redrawn, and the rest are missed out (they get redrawn sometimes, but very seldom.) /Marcus
Re: Rootless mode only works on one monitor
Marcus Lindblom wrote: Problems solved! The first was my bad (told nView not to let apps span two screens when maximizing, do'h!). By default, XWin open a window as big as the primary desktop. Setting nView to use both monitors as one big desktop is one solution. But you can also have two desktops (so the taskbar isn't extended on both screen and a mazimized window fit on one monitor only) and use the -screen parameter to force XWin to be bigger than the primary desktop.
RE: Rootless mode only works on one monitor
I see. I'm using two graphics adapters on Windows 2000, but I can't get XWin to come up on the second display, no matter what I try. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:cygwin-xfree-owner;cygwin.com]On Behalf Of Marcus Lindblom Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 4:32 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Rootless mode only works on one monitor I sort of did that, didn't I? ;) Note that I am running both monitors from the same graphics adapter, and use driver software to link them together as one big screen. I haven't tested using the WinXP-multimon feature, or using two separate adapters. (I have a voodoo2 which I used with a GF1 before I got the GF4). I think XWin tries to open one maximized window (albeit transparent or non-existant, whatever, anyway it uses that as a measure on how big the screen is), and only create subwindows within that border. As you probably know, maximizing a window with Windows-multimon only put's it on one screen, so XWin only get's one screen. As I said, I use nView (nVidia driver thingy) to get one big monitor, so windows doesn't know that it's two of them, thus no problem in running xwin on two monitors, as it is only one. This is a bit silly if you're running rootless though, but I do believe that is why it works for me. (It fits the problems and my solutions to it below, i.e. I had to start xwin-test67.exe non-rootless and tell nview to allow it to maximize to both screens, then I could get rootless windows on both monitors.) /Marcus -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:cygwin-xfree-owner;cygwin.com] On Behalf Of Jean-Claude Gervais Sent: den 20 oktober 2002 21:54 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Rootless mode only works on one monitor Marcus, Could you post the details of how you get multiple-monitors to work with X? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:cygwin-xfree-owner;cygwin.com]On Behalf Of Marcus Lindblom Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Rootless mode only works on one monitor Problems solved! The first was my bad (told nView not to let apps span two screens when maximizing, do'h!). '-engine 1' took care of the redraw problem, which appeared with rootless as well. /Marcus From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try it with the ``-engine 1'' parameter and report your results. Harold Marcus Lindblom wrote: Hi! Am running Cygwin and Test67 of XWin.exe, a GF4 Ti4200 and a nView-enhanced desktop (which windows sees as one monitor at 2560x1024, not as two 1280x1024). Rootless mode is really cool, but the windows only shows on one of the screens (the primary). Also, when running with a root window, I can get it to strectch across both screens, but I get the same bug that was reported a while ago: a white part on the right side. Looks like only the 2048 leftmost pixel columns are redrawn, and the rest are missed out (they get redrawn sometimes, but very seldom.) /Marcus
Re: Rootless mode only works on one monitor
Marcus, Try it with the ``-engine 1'' parameter and report your results. Harold Marcus Lindblom wrote: Hi! Am running Cygwin and Test67 of XWin.exe, a GF4 Ti4200 and a nView-enhanced desktop (which windows sees as one monitor at 2560x1024, not as two 1280x1024). Rootless mode is really cool, but the windows only shows on one of the screens (the primary). Also, when running with a root window, I can get it to strectch across both screens, but I get the same bug that was reported a while ago: a white part on the right side. Looks like only the 2048 leftmost pixel columns are redrawn, and the rest are missed out (they get redrawn sometimes, but very seldom.) /Marcus
Re: Rootless mode only works on one monitor
Yes, we should look into doing something that would allow rootless-mode windows to be placed anywhere on the virtual display area. I think that may only require setting the size of the fake Windows-window to the size of the virtual display region. Should be easy, right? ;) Harold Jehan wrote: Marcus Lindblom wrote: Problems solved! The first was my bad (told nView not to let apps span two screens when maximizing, do'h!). By default, XWin open a window as big as the primary desktop. Setting nView to use both monitors as one big desktop is one solution. But you can also have two desktops (so the taskbar isn't extended on both screen and a mazimized window fit on one monitor only) and use the -screen parameter to force XWin to be bigger than the primary desktop.
RE: Rootless mode only works on one monitor
I sort of did that, didn't I? ;) Note that I am running both monitors from the same graphics adapter, and use driver software to link them together as one big screen. I haven't tested using the WinXP-multimon feature, or using two separate adapters. (I have a voodoo2 which I used with a GF1 before I got the GF4). I think XWin tries to open one maximized window (albeit transparent or non-existant, whatever, anyway it uses that as a measure on how big the screen is), and only create subwindows within that border. As you probably know, maximizing a window with Windows-multimon only put's it on one screen, so XWin only get's one screen. As I said, I use nView (nVidia driver thingy) to get one big monitor, so windows doesn't know that it's two of them, thus no problem in running xwin on two monitors, as it is only one. This is a bit silly if you're running rootless though, but I do believe that is why it works for me. (It fits the problems and my solutions to it below, i.e. I had to start xwin-test67.exe non-rootless and tell nview to allow it to maximize to both screens, then I could get rootless windows on both monitors.) /Marcus -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:cygwin-xfree-owner;cygwin.com] On Behalf Of Jean-Claude Gervais Sent: den 20 oktober 2002 21:54 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Rootless mode only works on one monitor Marcus, Could you post the details of how you get multiple-monitors to work with X? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:cygwin-xfree-owner;cygwin.com]On Behalf Of Marcus Lindblom Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 3:08 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Rootless mode only works on one monitor Problems solved! The first was my bad (told nView not to let apps span two screens when maximizing, do'h!). '-engine 1' took care of the redraw problem, which appeared with rootless as well. /Marcus From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try it with the ``-engine 1'' parameter and report your results. Harold Marcus Lindblom wrote: Hi! Am running Cygwin and Test67 of XWin.exe, a GF4 Ti4200 and a nView-enhanced desktop (which windows sees as one monitor at 2560x1024, not as two 1280x1024). Rootless mode is really cool, but the windows only shows on one of the screens (the primary). Also, when running with a root window, I can get it to strectch across both screens, but I get the same bug that was reported a while ago: a white part on the right side. Looks like only the 2048 leftmost pixel columns are redrawn, and the rest are missed out (they get redrawn sometimes, but very seldom.) /Marcus
RE: Rootless mode only works on one monitor
Problems solved! The first was my bad (told nView not to let apps span two screens when maximizing, do'h!). '-engine 1' took care of the redraw problem, which appeared with rootless as well. /Marcus From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Try it with the ``-engine 1'' parameter and report your results. Harold Marcus Lindblom wrote: Hi! Am running Cygwin and Test67 of XWin.exe, a GF4 Ti4200 and a nView-enhanced desktop (which windows sees as one monitor at 2560x1024, not as two 1280x1024). Rootless mode is really cool, but the windows only shows on one of the screens (the primary). Also, when running with a root window, I can get it to strectch across both screens, but I get the same bug that was reported a while ago: a white part on the right side. Looks like only the 2048 leftmost pixel columns are redrawn, and the rest are missed out (they get redrawn sometimes, but very seldom.) /Marcus
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
Yikes!!! I just noticed that my XWin.log is 52 MB for my one hour session in Cygwin/XFree86. I will have to roll a new release tonight that turns off the logging of the winAddRgn messages. Sorry about that. Harold root wrote: Works fine..no rubber bands.. none of my previous problems (my error!). Only quirk I can see is loads of 'winAddRgn()' message lines at the end of my XWin.log. Thanks a million..I owe someone a beer for this!! Colin
Re: Invoking rootless mode
Sam Edge was recently quoted as saying... You wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED] in gmane.os.cygwin.xfree on Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:13:10 +0200: oh how I miss the focus follows mouse function within windows, just to mention one At the expense of being somewhat off topic and sounding like a Microsoft UI aficionado you can get this behaviour out of most versions of Windows if you install Microsoft Tweak UI. (Some versions need the XMouse powertoy instead - also from Microsoft.) At the expense of sounding like a picky naysayer, XMouse never worked consistently similar to any other X wm's focus-follows-mouse behaviour that I ever used. And it will never work like Fvwm2 SloppyFocus, which I've become addicted to. :) As for rootless mode, I'd throw out some other caveats and recommendations: * I'm using a Win32 virtual pager. When XWin is active, even in rootless mode, the window covers up the page in the virtual display. (Yes I know why, and this is with JSPager, perhaps there are shape-aware virt pagers for Win32.) * I recommend running this mode with the X server set to run always-on-top. Right now I'm using a tool called Make Always On Top to make XWin.exe this way, perhaps I could suggest that XWin.exe include this ability as a command-line and/or icon-menu option. Right now I'm using Chris's patched binary, set sticky in my Win32 pager, and Always On Top via that tool. I've moved my fvwm root-window menus to be invoked via an added title button on all fvwm windows, and turned on the titlebar for one of my X sticky windows so that I can always access it. I then get myself into the habit of manually minimizing X apps when I need to use a large Win32 app. This is a bit of a minor inconvenience, but the always-on-top has the benefit of making my X icons, winlist and pager window always available. In the meantime, I've trimmed off two pages of my X virtual desktop, two pages off my Windows virtual desktop, and turned off the overhead caused by my X root-pattern switcher (FvwmBacker). I'm enjoying this desktop paradigm. == Keith D. Tyler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Federal Way, WA http://www.keithtyler.com -- If Tyrrany and Oppresion come to this land, it will be under the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison, U.S. President 1809-1817 ==
Rootless mode logging and slowness
Some of you have noticed that a message is being added to /tmp/XWin.log every time that winAddRgn (or something close to that) is called. Other of you have also noticed that certain window operations and other random operations are slower than expected in Cygwin/XFree86 with rootless mode enabled. It turns out that these two issues are related. The winAddRgn function is being called many, many, many thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of times and the average window operation may cause it to be called several hundred times. As you can imagine, writing a message to the log file during every one of these calls is an extraordinary burden. I built a test version for my own purposes with this logging message disabled and I fully expected the performance hit to go away. Well, it did, for the most part. I would estimate that about 95% of the slowdown in rootless mode was caused by this errant logging, but the rootless mode is still a little bit slower than non-rootless mode. However, the performance hit is now well worth the features and new usage scenarios that rootless mode provides. I used Cygwin/XFree86 today in rootless mode for several hours while creating a LaTeX document for my homework and creating figures for that document in xfig. Rootless mode made it so much easier to switch between emacs and xfig running under Cygwin/XFree86 to Adobe Acrobat or to Mozilla running under Windows. (Yes, I know, I could use ghostscript to view my pdf, but gs keeps crashing on startup whenever I try to run it; also, Acrobat is much more user-friendly than gs). So, rootless mode makes Cygwin/XFree86 actually useful for the primary maintainer to get some work done! This is astonishing! :) Harold
Re: Invoking rootless mode
Hallo Sam. Sam Edge wrote: At the expense of being somewhat off topic and sounding like a and so on - at least avoid full qoute... Guess I needed that - I had TweakUI already installed for some other reason but never checked the mouse options... sh... By the way: This works absolutely positiv with the -rootless option of the new xwin binary. All looks like being integrated expcept copy/paste. Thanks a lot! Uwe
Re: Invoking rootless mode
Uwe Schmidtmann was recently quoted as saying... Guess I needed that - I had TweakUI already installed for some other reason but never checked the mouse options... sh... By the way: This works absolutely positiv with the -rootless option of the new xwin binary. All looks like being integrated expcept copy/paste. To get integrated copy/paste, you need xwinclip: http://xfree86.cygwin.com/devel/xwinclip/ And warning: it tends to crash here and there, so be prepared to restart it as needed. Some days I have to restart it once or twice. But it works rather well. HTH, == Keith D. Tyler[EMAIL PROTECTED] Federal Way, WA http://www.keithtyler.com -- If Tyrrany and Oppresion come to this land, it will be under the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. - James Madison, U.S. President 1809-1817 ==
Re: Invoking rootless mode
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, Keith D. Tyler wrote: * I recommend running this mode with the X server set to run always-on-top. Why? You will never get the w32 windows in front of any x11 window. Right now I'm using a tool called Make Always On Top to make XWin.exe this way, perhaps I could suggest that XWin.exe include this ability as a command-line and/or icon-menu option. Feel free to add such a commandline option. bye ago -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gotti.org ICQ: 126018723
Re: Invoking rootless mode
Keith D. Tyler wrote: At the expense of sounding like a picky naysayer, XMouse never worked consistently similar to any other X wm's focus-follows-mouse behaviour that I ever used. And it will never work like Fvwm2 SloppyFocus, which I've become addicted to. :) Maybe I was not clear enough with my posting (english is not my native language, sorry). What I am running is a combination of xmouse for the native windoze stuff and icewm managing the mouse focus for x11. This is not always flawless, but with icewm using the nice scheme windows and X11 almost look the same and the context switch between X and windoze works without having to click or press any weired keys. This is extremely useful as I use nedit for editing my source code while using borland as a compiler. I am used to nedit for almost 7 years now and had extreme problems with editor integrated in borlands ide when I came to this job. Sorry for being off topic again... Maybe Harold Hunt could give a short hint on where to get the xwin.exe version with less logging... Thanks. Regards and have a nice weekend. Uwe
Re: Invoking rootless mode
Uwe, There is a preliminary Server Test Series - Test 67 release up at: http://www.msu.edu/~huntharo/xwin/shadow/XWin-Test67.exe.bz2 (~1,225 KB) I say that this is preliminary because I built it from the HEAD branch, rather than from the 4.2.0 branch. Thus, if you run xdpyinfo it will report a strange version number, whereas the usual releases report 4.2.0. I am only putting this link up for those few brave soles that want to minimize logging before I can make an official release. Harold Uwe Schmidtmann wrote: Keith D. Tyler wrote: At the expense of sounding like a picky naysayer, XMouse never worked consistently similar to any other X wm's focus-follows-mouse behaviour that I ever used. And it will never work like Fvwm2 SloppyFocus, which I've become addicted to. :) Maybe I was not clear enough with my posting (english is not my native language, sorry). What I am running is a combination of xmouse for the native windoze stuff and icewm managing the mouse focus for x11. This is not always flawless, but with icewm using the nice scheme windows and X11 almost look the same and the context switch between X and windoze works without having to click or press any weired keys. This is extremely useful as I use nedit for editing my source code while using borland as a compiler. I am used to nedit for almost 7 years now and had extreme problems with editor integrated in borlands ide when I came to this job. Sorry for being off topic again... Maybe Harold Hunt could give a short hint on where to get the xwin.exe version with less logging... Thanks. Regards and have a nice weekend. Uwe
Re: Invoking rootless mode
Holger, You will probably want to grab that Test 67 preliminary release that I just posted... it has much better performance due to reduced logging. Take a look at your /tmp/XWin.log file, it is probably over 50 MB. http://www.msu.edu/~huntharo/xwin/shadow/XWin-Test67.exe.bz2 Harold Holger Vogt wrote: Hi all, I have just installed XWin-Test66.exe over a very old Cygwin installation (May 01, X-dlls March 01) on a Windows NT4 notebook. After starting and a short DOS box pop up ... nothing happened. But then there it was: a small green rectangle among all my Windows icons stating sh. Now my screen is full with applications (Xman, Xciruit drawing program, MAGIC layout editor), and still the Windows background, Windows Netscape and others. Congratulations, great work. Holger Vogt
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
Don't worry, the patch came through correctly. The problem was that the email did not clearly state that a rootless mode had been implemented, so both Alexander and I didn't pay any attention to it. I didn't even notice that it had a patch attached. The message is in the archives: http://cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/2002-10/msg00126.html Harold [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, On 16 Oct 2002, Alexander Gottwald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Harold L Hunt II wrote: Oh my god, I completely missed this patch! Wow! I can't remember this patch too. Either it got lost or was somehow rejected by the mailserver or maybe was sent to a private address. It was posted on the 15th of this month in this thread. The M-ID I have is from the gmane newsserver so it won't be helpful to you I guess, sorry. If you can't get it then I will forward it to you (9k). (Off list - I can't email everyone a copy after all, there is a limit to my bandwidth :-)
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was posted on the 15th of this month in this thread. And I received it. Must have been blind that day. bye ago -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gotti.org ICQ: 126018723
Re: Invoking rootless mode
Hi! The rootless mode is much more interesting than the real one from other products (at least for me). One of the reasons for this is cygwins capability of still being able to use an X11 window manager (e.g. icewm) instead of the dump windows user interface (oh how I miss the focus follows mouse function within windows, just to mention one)... I sometimes use a tail -f to follow some debug from a windows application compiled with borland and I definitely use nedit as my favourite editor (I came from the unix world). The first works much better when in rootless mode than being forced to switch from win to x and the other way round. So - many useless words, but one tip: Having icewm with the statusbar almost everything can be used as with fullscreen mode (Window managers menus are available via status bar). When icewm moves the complete window (I think that was called opaque move) even the problem with the invisible(?) window outline does not exists. So GREAT WORK done there! Bradey Honsinger wrote: I didn't see a mention of the argument to invoke the new rootless mode anywhere in this thread--no doubt it's in the updated man pages, but I just grabbed the Test66 binary. Logically enough, it's '-rootless': -rootless EXPERIMENTAL: Run the server in pseudo-rootless mode. You don't appear to need the '-nodecoration' option when you use '-rootless'. Note that the output of 'XWin -help' goes to /tmp/XWin.log[1], a fact which I had forgotten. I just used -rootless without any other options. Works fine. Window creation and movement slows down a little but when the windows are shown there seems to be no speed punishment for using the pseudo rootless mode. This is really cool--many thanks to Matsuzaki, Thomas, and Harold! It's a bit of a hack, but it looks very useful, and at the least it should get most of the 'Why doesn't cygwin-xfree work like my favorite commerial X server?' people off of Harold's back. I'll probably go back to full-screen 'rooted' mode, though--I _like_ hiding all of the Windows junk when I'm working in X. - Bradey Just one question (little of topic in this thread): Has anyone succesfully used dfm with cygwin? It compiled flawless but when started it complains about dll`s missing in the path. That happened when trying to start a program or to change some preferences. (Funny enough those were cygwin1.dll and libX11.dll and the path was something like c:\cygwin\...) Maybe I just missed an existing patch (took dfm source from the projects homepage). Regards, Uwe
Re: Invoking rootless mode
You wrote in [EMAIL PROTECTED] in gmane.os.cygwin.xfree on Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:13:10 +0200: oh how I miss the focus follows mouse function within windows, just to mention one At the expense of being somewhat off topic and sounding like a Microsoft UI aficionado you can get this behaviour out of most versions of Windows if you install Microsoft Tweak UI. (Some versions need the XMouse powertoy instead - also from Microsoft.) Windows 9x, Me, 2000: http://www.microsoft.com/ntworkstation/downloads/PowerToys/Networking/NTTweakUI.asp Windows XP: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/downloads/powertoys.asp XMouse (95): http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/downloads/contents/wutoys/w95pwrtoysset/default.asp This might make working with X and Windows WMs at the same time slightly more consistent. -- Sam Edge
Re: Invoking rootless mode
Bradey, Thanks for pointing that out. I added the -rootless command-line arg to the patch that Matsuzaki sent in, so Test66 and XFree86-xserv-4.2.0-13 are different than the release that Thomas Chadwick made. This version of a rootless mode is precisely what I was aiming for: something simple that can be built off of. I had no idea that it would be quite that simple though! :) Now it is only a matter of time until we implement all of the little features that will make rootless mode complete. Harold Bradey Honsinger wrote: I didn't see a mention of the argument to invoke the new rootless mode anywhere in this thread--no doubt it's in the updated man pages, but I just grabbed the Test66 binary. Logically enough, it's '-rootless': -rootless EXPERIMENTAL: Run the server in pseudo-rootless mode. You don't appear to need the '-nodecoration' option when you use '-rootless'. Note that the output of 'XWin -help' goes to /tmp/XWin.log[1], a fact which I had forgotten. This is really cool--many thanks to Matsuzaki, Thomas, and Harold! It's a bit of a hack, but it looks very useful, and at the least it should get most of the 'Why doesn't cygwin-xfree work like my favorite commerial X server?' people off of Harold's back. I'll probably go back to full-screen 'rooted' mode, though--I _like_ hiding all of the Windows junk when I'm working in X. - Bradey [1] http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/2002-04/msg00504.html
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
FYI - I've taken down the binary I posted to avoid any confusion with Harold's test release of XWin -rootless. From: Thomas Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:52:56 -0400 By the way, my ISP seems to be blocking downloads of exe's. Zipping it seems to work. Please download the exe using this URL instead... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/XWin.zip From: Thomas Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:21:25 -0400 I tried out this patch (took a few days because I needed to get xfree86 out of CVS and build it). Very cool. Thanks a bunch to MATSUZAKI for coding it! You saved me a lot of work. Here's a screenshot... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/pseudo_rootless_screenshot.gif Notice that you can see IE in the background along with some Windows desktop icons down the left side of the screen. The windows in the forground are Xclients (namely xterm, xclock, and xeyes). The icon in the lower left is an iconified Xclient. However, I noticed a few strange artifacts of this approach to rootless mode... 1) When you click and drag on an Xwindow to move it, you only see the bits and pieces of the rubber band outline which happen to overlap the other Xwindows. Where the rubber band overlaps Windows windows, you see nothing. 2) Now that there is no root window, you can't use the XWindows window manager's root-window menus. 3) A favorite tool of mine, x2x, is broken, which is due to the lack of a root window causing the mouse focus to jump back and forth XWindows and Windows. Still, if anyone wants to try it out, here's a binary that I built last night from source I pulled from CVS yesterday... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/XWin.exe From: MATSUZAKI Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:30:50 +0900 Thomas didn't talk about X Shape Extension. I think Thomas's idea is something like this. With this patch and -nodecoration option, it seems to work good. pseudo-rootless.patch _ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp _ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp _ Get faster connections -- switch to MSN Internet Access! http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
I tried out this patch (took a few days because I needed to get xfree86 out of CVS and build it). Very cool. Thanks a bunch to MATSUZAKI for coding it! You saved me a lot of work. Here's a screenshot... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/pseudo_rootless_screenshot.gif Notice that you can see IE in the background along with some Windows desktop icons down the left side of the screen. The windows in the forground are Xclients (namely xterm, xclock, and xeyes). The icon in the lower left is an iconified Xclient. However, I noticed a few strange artifacts of this approach to rootless mode... 1) When you click and drag on an Xwindow to move it, you only see the bits and pieces of the rubber band outline which happen to overlap the other Xwindows. Where the rubber band overlaps Windows windows, you see nothing. 2) Now that there is no root window, you can't use the XWindows window manager's root-window menus. 3) A favorite tool of mine, x2x, is broken, which is due to the lack of a root window causing the mouse focus to jump back and forth XWindows and Windows. Still, if anyone wants to try it out, here's a binary that I built last night from source I pulled from CVS yesterday... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/XWin.exe From: MATSUZAKI Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:30:50 +0900 Thomas didn't talk about X Shape Extension. I think Thomas's idea is something like this. With this patch and -nodecoration option, it seems to work good. pseudo-rootless.patch _ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
Thomas, What CVS tree did you pull this from? Why isn't MATSUZAKI working with us? If I recall correctly, he wrote the Unicode support for xwinclip, right? Harold Thomas Chadwick wrote: I tried out this patch (took a few days because I needed to get xfree86 out of CVS and build it). Very cool. Thanks a bunch to MATSUZAKI for coding it! You saved me a lot of work. Here's a screenshot... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/pseudo_rootless_screenshot.gif Notice that you can see IE in the background along with some Windows desktop icons down the left side of the screen. The windows in the forground are Xclients (namely xterm, xclock, and xeyes). The icon in the lower left is an iconified Xclient. However, I noticed a few strange artifacts of this approach to rootless mode... 1) When you click and drag on an Xwindow to move it, you only see the bits and pieces of the rubber band outline which happen to overlap the other Xwindows. Where the rubber band overlaps Windows windows, you see nothing. 2) Now that there is no root window, you can't use the XWindows window manager's root-window menus. 3) A favorite tool of mine, x2x, is broken, which is due to the lack of a root window causing the mouse focus to jump back and forth XWindows and Windows. Still, if anyone wants to try it out, here's a binary that I built last night from source I pulled from CVS yesterday... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/XWin.exe From: MATSUZAKI Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:30:50 +0900 Thomas didn't talk about X Shape Extension. I think Thomas's idea is something like this. With this patch and -nodecoration option, it seems to work good. pseudo-rootless.patch _ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
In response to your first question - the patch isn't in CVS. I pulled the source from CVS, applied the patch that was posted to the ML, then built it. Sorry if that wasn't clear. As for your other 2 questions - I don't have an answer. The fact that Matsuzaki posted this patch came as a complete surprise to me. I had every intention of developing and experimenting with such a patch myself. He just beat me to it. From: Harold L Hunt II [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:26:20 -0400 Thomas, What CVS tree did you pull this from? Why isn't MATSUZAKI working with us? If I recall correctly, he wrote the Unicode support for xwinclip, right? Harold Thomas Chadwick wrote: I tried out this patch (took a few days because I needed to get xfree86 out of CVS and build it). Very cool. Thanks a bunch to MATSUZAKI for coding it! You saved me a lot of work. Here's a screenshot... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/pseudo_rootless_screenshot.gif Notice that you can see IE in the background along with some Windows desktop icons down the left side of the screen. The windows in the forground are Xclients (namely xterm, xclock, and xeyes). The icon in the lower left is an iconified Xclient. However, I noticed a few strange artifacts of this approach to rootless mode... 1) When you click and drag on an Xwindow to move it, you only see the bits and pieces of the rubber band outline which happen to overlap the other Xwindows. Where the rubber band overlaps Windows windows, you see nothing. 2) Now that there is no root window, you can't use the XWindows window manager's root-window menus. 3) A favorite tool of mine, x2x, is broken, which is due to the lack of a root window causing the mouse focus to jump back and forth XWindows and Windows. Still, if anyone wants to try it out, here's a binary that I built last night from source I pulled from CVS yesterday... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/XWin.exe From: MATSUZAKI Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:30:50 +0900 Thomas didn't talk about X Shape Extension. I think Thomas's idea is something like this. With this patch and -nodecoration option, it seems to work good. pseudo-rootless.patch _ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp _ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
Oh my god, I completely missed this patch! Wow! I can't wait to take a look at it tonight! Harold MATSUZAKI Kensuke wrote: Thomas didn't talk about X Shape Extension. I think Thomas's idea is something like this. With this patch and -nodecoration option, it seems to work good.
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
Heh heh... as you will see from my reply that I just sent to MATSUZAKI's post, I missed his email, or I saw it but I didn't realize that he wrote a patch for rootless mode. Very cool. Harold Thomas Chadwick wrote: In response to your first question - the patch isn't in CVS. I pulled the source from CVS, applied the patch that was posted to the ML, then built it. Sorry if that wasn't clear. As for your other 2 questions - I don't have an answer. The fact that Matsuzaki posted this patch came as a complete surprise to me. I had every intention of developing and experimenting with such a patch myself. He just beat me to it. From: Harold L Hunt II [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:26:20 -0400 Thomas, What CVS tree did you pull this from? Why isn't MATSUZAKI working with us? If I recall correctly, he wrote the Unicode support for xwinclip, right? Harold Thomas Chadwick wrote: I tried out this patch (took a few days because I needed to get xfree86 out of CVS and build it). Very cool. Thanks a bunch to MATSUZAKI for coding it! You saved me a lot of work. Here's a screenshot... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/pseudo_rootless_screenshot.gif Notice that you can see IE in the background along with some Windows desktop icons down the left side of the screen. The windows in the forground are Xclients (namely xterm, xclock, and xeyes). The icon in the lower left is an iconified Xclient. However, I noticed a few strange artifacts of this approach to rootless mode... 1) When you click and drag on an Xwindow to move it, you only see the bits and pieces of the rubber band outline which happen to overlap the other Xwindows. Where the rubber band overlaps Windows windows, you see nothing. 2) Now that there is no root window, you can't use the XWindows window manager's root-window menus. 3) A favorite tool of mine, x2x, is broken, which is due to the lack of a root window causing the mouse focus to jump back and forth XWindows and Windows. Still, if anyone wants to try it out, here's a binary that I built last night from source I pulled from CVS yesterday... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/XWin.exe From: MATSUZAKI Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:30:50 +0900 Thomas didn't talk about X Shape Extension. I think Thomas's idea is something like this. With this patch and -nodecoration option, it seems to work good. pseudo-rootless.patch _ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp _ Surf the Web without missing calls! Get MSN Broadband. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/freeactivation.asp
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Harold L Hunt II wrote: Oh my god, I completely missed this patch! Wow! I can't remember this patch too. Either it got lost or was somehow rejected by the mailserver or maybe was sent to a private address. bye ago -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gotti.org ICQ: 126018723
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
By the way, my ISP seems to be blocking downloads of exe's. Zipping it seems to work. Please download the exe using this URL instead... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/XWin.zip From: Thomas Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 10:21:25 -0400 I tried out this patch (took a few days because I needed to get xfree86 out of CVS and build it). Very cool. Thanks a bunch to MATSUZAKI for coding it! You saved me a lot of work. Here's a screenshot... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/pseudo_rootless_screenshot.gif Notice that you can see IE in the background along with some Windows desktop icons down the left side of the screen. The windows in the forground are Xclients (namely xterm, xclock, and xeyes). The icon in the lower left is an iconified Xclient. However, I noticed a few strange artifacts of this approach to rootless mode... 1) When you click and drag on an Xwindow to move it, you only see the bits and pieces of the rubber band outline which happen to overlap the other Xwindows. Where the rubber band overlaps Windows windows, you see nothing. 2) Now that there is no root window, you can't use the XWindows window manager's root-window menus. 3) A favorite tool of mine, x2x, is broken, which is due to the lack of a root window causing the mouse focus to jump back and forth XWindows and Windows. Still, if anyone wants to try it out, here's a binary that I built last night from source I pulled from CVS yesterday... http://home.adelphia.net/~tlcweb/cygwin/XWin.exe From: MATSUZAKI Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 03:30:50 +0900 Thomas didn't talk about X Shape Extension. I think Thomas's idea is something like this. With this patch and -nodecoration option, it seems to work good. pseudo-rootless.patch _ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp _ Unlimited Internet access -- and 2 months free! Try MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/2monthsfree.asp
Re: Rootless mode revisted...
That's brilliant. Works well on W2K serving a remote Linux. Problems with applications that spawn extra child windows, help, abouts etc, being confined to the top left of the parent window. I ssh tunelled stuff like ethereal with no other problems. Spotted the 'ghost' rubber banding on movement, but otherwise good stuff. Colin
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
From: MATSUZAKI Kensuke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Thomas Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Rootless mode revisited... Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 02:08:41 +0900 [snip] 3) A favorite tool of mine, x2x, is broken, which is due to the lack of a root window causing the mouse focus to jump back and forth XWindows and Windows. Sorry. I have not used x2x, and I have only one display, so I can't comment 3). x2x does XGrabPointer and XGrabKeyboard on the from display in order to redirect the mouse and keybaord events to the to display (it uses XunGrab to stop the redirection). Does MS-Windows have an equivalent function? If so, I could patch x2x to also do an MS-Windows grab. Come to think of it, would it not be a good idea to change the XGrab procedures themselves to also do an MS-Windows grab when XWin is running in rootless or pseudo-rootless mode? _ Internet access plans that fit your lifestyle -- join MSN. http://resourcecenter.msn.com/access/plans/default.asp
Invoking rootless mode
I didn't see a mention of the argument to invoke the new rootless mode anywhere in this thread--no doubt it's in the updated man pages, but I just grabbed the Test66 binary. Logically enough, it's '-rootless': -rootless EXPERIMENTAL: Run the server in pseudo-rootless mode. You don't appear to need the '-nodecoration' option when you use '-rootless'. Note that the output of 'XWin -help' goes to /tmp/XWin.log[1], a fact which I had forgotten. This is really cool--many thanks to Matsuzaki, Thomas, and Harold! It's a bit of a hack, but it looks very useful, and at the least it should get most of the 'Why doesn't cygwin-xfree work like my favorite commerial X server?' people off of Harold's back. I'll probably go back to full-screen 'rooted' mode, though--I _like_ hiding all of the Windows junk when I'm working in X. - Bradey [1] http://www.cygwin.com/ml/cygwin-xfree/2002-04/msg00504.html
Rootless mode revisited...
I just had a thought on how to implement rootless mode and I'm hoping
someone more familiar with Windows programming and/or the XWin server might
let me know if it's a dead-end before I spend too much time researching it
further.
The idea I had is this: Can we exploit the features of the Windows API that
allow for non-rectangular windows to achieve a pseudo-rootless mode? I
have looked into it enough to find that non-rectangular Windows windows are
really collections of multiple rectangles, ellipses, etc. Seems to me XWin
could exploit this by simply {adding|removing} a rectangle {to|from} the
collection that makes up its shape whenever an Xclient is
{created|destroyed}.
I call it pseudo-rootless mode because you would still need to run an
XWindows window manager to decorate the Xclients, as opposed to having the
Windows window manager do the decoration.
What I don't know is how well Windows will handle, for instance, moving an
Xclient window around once it's been created, since that would involve
dynamically manipulating the shape of a Windows window.
What I also don't know is whether or not the way XWin uses DirectDraw and
frame-buffering somehow precludes the use of the Windows window-shaping
APIs.
_
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
Let me sum it up like this: we already know how to do it. That isn't the problem. The problem is that requires lot of work to implement the design that we have in mind. What Thomas suggested is an interesting idea. His idea was obviously a suggestion and it probably wasn't thought out from the standpoint of architecting an entire system to use that idea. With that being said, I think that the system that we have in mind (modeled after X Darwin's rootless mode) won't require that we have windows that are anywhere near as complicated as that. Then again, what Thomas is suggesting might be a way to handle windows created with the X Shape Extension. However, to consider issues related to shaped windows now (before we can even handle basic windows) would be frivilous. The handling of standard windows would not be well enough known for us to even know what we were trying to talk about. Harold
Re: Rootless mode revisited...
In a cursory look at the Darwin project, it seemed that they were shadowing
every top-level (child of root) window with a pixmap / hbitmap / dibsection.
The action would be something like draw into the dibsections memory with X
windows drawing routines and then use DirectDraw's fastblt to push it to the
hwnd (Microsloth window) on the screen.
Having worked on a commercial PC X server using gdi exclusively, my
experience would suggest extending this sort of approach with just a short
list of obvious DirectDraw accelerations: rectangle solid color fill and
pix-to-window copies of pixmaps with constant contents (how about all those
mwm pixmaps with the window decorations in them!) The copy pix-to-win
operations could be accelerated by moving pixmaps into video memory caches
when it is available.
An approach using dibsections would make this feasible, just be careful of
bit/byte ordering differences between X and WIndows!
Also worth noting, this approach lends itself to emulating 8-bit color on a
true color screen. Check out WRQ's pseudocolor emulation mode, reasonably
fast and very color accurate with the additional benefit of unlimited
simultaneously installed colormaps or in layman's terms, no colormap
flashing!.
- Original Message -
From: Thomas Chadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 7:13 AM
Subject: Rootless mode revisited...
I just had a thought on how to implement rootless mode and I'm hoping
someone more familiar with Windows programming and/or the XWin server
might
let me know if it's a dead-end before I spend too much time researching it
further.
The idea I had is this: Can we exploit the features of the Windows API
that
allow for non-rectangular windows to achieve a pseudo-rootless mode? I
have looked into it enough to find that non-rectangular Windows windows
are
really collections of multiple rectangles, ellipses, etc. Seems to me
XWin
could exploit this by simply {adding|removing} a rectangle {to|from} the
collection that makes up its shape whenever an Xclient is
{created|destroyed}.
I call it pseudo-rootless mode because you would still need to run an
XWindows window manager to decorate the Xclients, as opposed to having the
Windows window manager do the decoration.
What I don't know is how well Windows will handle, for instance, moving an
Xclient window around once it's been created, since that would involve
dynamically manipulating the shape of a Windows window.
What I also don't know is whether or not the way XWin uses DirectDraw and
frame-buffering somehow precludes the use of the Windows window-shaping
APIs.
_
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
Re: Debatable: Rootless Mode is an Important and Needed Feature
HLH Could you please ask your pointy-haired bosses for a few thousand bucks HLH to pay one of your programmers to throw some time at a rootless mode? HLH Better yet, why don't you ask them if they would be willing to pay me to HLH do it? Some time ago there was a suggestion to setup a paypal account to receive donations for this purpose. I recall someone saying that an announcement would be made when the account was available. What ever happened to this? Personally, I'd be happy to contribute some hard cash to whomever implements this feature. Cheers, -- Robert
Re: Debatable: Rootless Mode is an Important and Needed Feature
Robert, My PayPal account is my email address. I have not setup a link to it from my homepage yet, but I have that on my To-Do list. I have also not proposed any prices for developing features that do not exist. However, I would be more than happy to accept any contributions for the work that I have already done... I could certainly use that money to keep my development hardware up-to-date. I have really been looking into upgrading my Linux machine that I use for building Cygwin/XFree86 --- I need a new motherboard ($120), a new chip ($200), a new 7200 RPM hard drive ($120), a bundle of RAM ($100), and a semi-modern graphics card ($120). I'd also like to have a UPS ($100-$200) since uptimes of more than 7 days are becoming rather rare at my apartment due to lightning storms and whatnot. It is a real pain to try logging on to my Linux machine from school only to find out that the storm during the night caused it to hang (we've had some power sags that caused it to hang but that did not cause the machine to reboot or X to stop displaying on the screen). PayPal money would be perfect for this because I don't have to struggle with myself as to whether spending this money is worth it or not --- the PayPal money would only be spent for hardware, so there is nothing to struggle about. Needless to say, the fiance stays out of the loop on that money as well, so there is no chance of veto on any purchases :) Hopefully that will do until I put a link on my page. Like I said, my PayPal account is my email address. Harold Robert Mecklenburg wrote: HLH Could you please ask your pointy-haired bosses for a few thousand bucks HLH to pay one of your programmers to throw some time at a rootless mode? HLH Better yet, why don't you ask them if they would be willing to pay me to HLH do it? Some time ago there was a suggestion to setup a paypal account to receive donations for this purpose. I recall someone saying that an announcement would be made when the account was available. What ever happened to this? Personally, I'd be happy to contribute some hard cash to whomever implements this feature. Cheers,
Re: Rootless Mode is an Important and Needed Feature
Harold L Hunt II wrote: Good point Alexander. On a side note: Why is it that XDarwin has so many people contributing code and features (they seem to have an OpenGL-passthrough system now, which is pretty amazing), while Cygwin/XFree86 has so few contributors? This seems contradictory because Windows is on 95% of desktops while Mac OS X is only on 1% (~20% of Apple's 5% market share are running Mac OS X). That question will probably always baffle me. Not really. The people running Darwin are mostly programmers or computer freaks which want to go other ways than the normal. They know how to code. Most windows users are - in contrary - only users which want a working program. They don't like coding. They want a shortcut on the desktop which starts the program. It must be easy and straight. Or the other way: people who know to code are able to run a unix (and deal with all it's problems). They don't need windows anymore. So why should they code for windows? bye ago BTW: Don't take this to serious. Just think about it. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gotti.org ICQ: 126018723
Rootless Mode is an Important and Needed Feature
I think that a Rootless mode for the Xserver right now is one of the most important and crucial features needed. For the Xserver to be used in a way that is convenient for many users, the option to have X applications displayed on the main Windows desktop is pretty important. Of course the current Root mode should also be available as well, since it also has uses. The new rootless mode should be one of the top priorities. __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
Debatable: Rootless Mode is an Important and Needed Feature
While, it might be nice to allow Windows to be the Window Manager and that it might be convenient, it is not a requirement for many people's regular and daily use of the Xserver. Would it be cool? Yes. I cannot right now think of a single X app would work better if Windows managed it. If there are, OK. I can't think of any
Re: Debatable: Rootless Mode is an Important and Needed Feature
I think that you are looking at it a different way.. If we had a rootless X-windows it would allow better integration with our current environment... and would help get it past the pointy haired bosses Thanks David R. Fischer Jim Drash wrote: While, it might be nice to allow Windows to be the Window Manager and that it might be convenient, it is not a requirement for many people's regular and daily use of the Xserver. Would it be cool? Yes. I cannot right now think of a single X app would work better if Windows managed it. If there are, OK. I can't think of any begin:vcard n:Fischer;David tel;cell:623-217-5858 x-mozilla-html:FALSE org:AMIS;Product Support adr:;;8701 E. Hartford Drive;Scottsdale;AZ;85255;USA version:2.1 email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Systems Support Eng. fn:David Fischer end:vcard
Re: Debatable: Rootless Mode is an Important and Needed Feature
Well, it isnt an absolute requirement, but it certianly is a significant convienience. I mantian some computer systems for some people, if I wished to use the Xserver to provide an X application for people to use, I know that if I told many people that they first had to maxamise a certian window and then find the application in that window, many users would be perplexed and complain loudly. For me a root mode is very useful, I like using my X Window Manager and X Desktop in a seperate window. Some users I maintian for though would be perplexed by this if I decided to provide X programs for them to use. This feature would be important to me for that convenience aspect, I know apps probably wouldnt work better in a rootless mode. While, it might be nice to allow Windows to be the Window Manager and that it might be convenient, it is not a requirement for many people's regular and daily use of the Xserver. Would it be cool? Yes. I cannot right now think of a single X app would work better if Windows managed it. If there are, OK. I can't think of any __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com
