Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
FoxNewsChannel has announced George Dubya Bush will make a pre-emptive court strike by challenging manual recounts. This, following warning Gore not to challenge results in court. These recounts are provided by state law, and are not being done for any court. Bush's objection is that people are subject to corruption, unlike tabulating devices. Dubya's new motto: "I trust in machines, not people."
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
Declan, powerful Media Mogul, wrote: #George seems to have an unusual fixation on Vulis... THAT'S NOT FUNNY. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: #I trust more in machines for counting machine ballots than I trust in #local politicians counting machine ballots. The Republican and Democratic members of the card examiners have agreed on objective standards. o if any corner of the "chad" is broken, then it is a choice. o merely indented or even "pregnant" (sunshine) are not a choice As far as I know, two opposing choices is still an invalidated ballot White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: #The Democrat Party is just trying to steal the election. You mean Dubya is, by virtue of going into federal court to stop a state recount that is provided for under Florida law. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: #Blood in the street is about to flow. AH HA HA HA HA! You and your "Turner Diaries" wet dreams. White Supremacist Tim "I'd like to see a race riot" May Moroned: #No wonder the Democrat Party has been trying so hard to disarm us. No wondering about your brain: it's left the planet. Hey, Tim, put your wife on the list so we can talk to the rational one. If I ever find out your real name and where you live, I'm going to come over and deal with you. I'm going to lick you. Lick, Lick, Lick, Slobber, Lickity-lick-lick-lick. Yum, stupid white trash.
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
A prime example of machine counting being unreliable. [New Mexico] http://foxnews.com/election_night/111000/new_mexico.sml # #The county withdrew early-voting and absentee ballots Tuesday #night after officials discovered a glitch in the computers used #to tally votes. The machines would not read ballots carrying #straight-party ticket votes that also included at least one vote #for a candidate from another party, election officials said. # #The machines' supplier blamed the problem on how county officials #programmed the machines.
Re: Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
At 03:24 PM 11/10/00 -0600, Jim Choate wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2000, Trei, Peter wrote:
This is covered by the Presidential Succession Act of 1947. See
http://www.greatsource.com/amgov/almanac/documents/key/1947_psa_1.html
Actualy it isn't. It's covered by the 20th amendment, section 3.
The 20th Amendment was ratified in 1933. Therefore the 1947 law
implements the " Congress may by law provide for the case" part of the 20th.
(Unfortunately, the Postmaster General is fairly high up the list :-)
The 20th does say that Congress can do whatever they want about it,
so they could easily supersede the 1947 act. Anyway, Al Haig's in charge.
Looks to me like Congress could leave Bill in office until this mess is
over. Like I said, is this a new way to win a 3rd term?
By the 23rd Amendment ("FDR Reoccurrance Prevention Amendment"),
he can't be _elected_ to win a 3rd term - but that doesn't mean he
can't be appointed, though What a bad idea that would be
In general, the 23rd trumps previous amendments, as any newer law
supersedes the older one, but it's not clear there's a conflict.
Thanks!
Bill
Bill Stewart, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 10:39:31PM -0800, Bill Stewart wrote: On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:58:11PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I vote you are hereby ex-communicated from the Cypherpunks club, joining Dimitry Vulis. At 07:05 PM 11/9/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: Huh? Tim has been posting such articles for years. You weren't around for the Y2K discussions. George, you've got to remember not to mess with Winston Smith. Unlike some people who need killing, yer just gonna get unpersoned Besides, George seems to have an unusual fixation on Vulis... -Declan
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
Jim Choate[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote: What happens if by the day the new president is to take his oath there is still no clear winner? Even if the candidates get together and one is a gracious loser, the trauma won't be lessened. There will be literaly no faith in the president. What would Congress need to do in order to pass an emergency resolution that would allow the current president to stay in office until the issue is resolved. Could this be a new way to get a third term? Would the vice-president (who serves when the president can't) then be the next in line (assume the speaker of the house would be next if memory serves)? One of the good results of the current stalemate is that many of us are getting crash courses in constitutional law. This is covered by the Presidential Succession Act of 1947. See http://www.greatsource.com/amgov/almanac/documents/key/1947_psa_1.html There would be appointed an acting president, who would stay in office only until the election was settled. The order of sucession goes; President Clinton Vice President Gore Speaker of the HouseHastert President pro-tem of the Senate Gore Secretary of State Albright Secretary of the Treasury Secretary of Defense Attorney GeneralReno Postmaster General Secretary of the Navy Secretary of the Interior Secretary of Agriculture Secretary of Commerce Secretary of Labor I suspect that the upshot would be that Clinton would stay in office for a while. The other alternative is that the already appointed electors vote, leaving out the unappointed Florida electors. This would throw the race to Gore. Peter Trei
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
So far, Wavy Gravy's Nobody for President campaign is still out ahead Nobody's winning in Florida! Nobody's in charge! Nobody's going to fix the economy! Nobody's going to shrink the military-industrial complex! Vote for Nobody! At 04:22 PM 11/9/00 -0800, Tim May wrote: At 7:05 PM -0500 11/9/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James "too damn bad about the 19,000" Baker ain't no piece of cake either, FYI. He's right about the "19,000 spoiled ballots." Four years ago there were 16,000 spoiled ballots in the same district, and that was with lower overall turnout. Fact is, voting is serious business. Those who show up dazed and confused and punch too many holes in their ballot are an example of social Darwinism. To some extent that's true - but it's also a lot like blaming airplane accidents on pilot error when the instrument panel is atrociously designed. It's not just the pilot's fault. Of course, here, the problem happened because the ballot designers were trying to make it Easier for the old folks. There are two or three states where Gore won by a narrow margin over Bush (typically about 48-49% of the total.) Bush has hinted that if the recount overturns this one, he'll push hard for recounts there, which could get him the electoral votes he needs. And so it begins On the other hand, if Bush squeaks by and wins this by 10 votes, there'll be a LOT of pressure on the Bush electors to do the honest thing, admit that Gore really won (because of the 19000 trashed Gore/Buchanan ballots), and vote for Gore. It only takes 2. And they don't even HAVE to be from Florida, though those would be the most appropriate ones to fix it. Unless he was bugging the voting booths and had ways of knowing the true thoughts of those voting, he had no way of knowing this. Knowing for sure? No. But Buchanan's not dumb enough to overestimate his popularity among a bunch of older Jewish Democrat voters, though perhaps his protectionism appeals to some Fla. Liberals as much as Nader's does Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
This is interesting: an unsuccessful lawsuit can mean Gore wins! [snipped] http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/10/politics/10DATE.html # #Dec. 18, the day that presidential electors are to meet in 50 #state capitals and the District of Columbia, may produce a #political crisis if Florida's 25 votes are still in dispute. #But the crisis will not be constitutional, scholars say, for #the Constitution enables a president to be chosen even if a big #state like Florida does not vote. # #The Constitution requires only that a winning candidate have #the votes of "a majority of the whole number of electors #appointed." If Florida's votes are not resolved by then, or if #a legal restraining order bars Gov. Jeb Bush from filing a #certificate listing Florida's electors, then Mr. Gore has enough #votes from other states, if current vote totals stand and if #his electors keep their pledges, to reach a majority of the 513 #electors actually appointed. # #In either of those cases, or if either Mr. Gore or Mr. Bush gets #Florida's votes, the House of Representatives would have no role #in choosing a president, other than to participate in a Jan. #6 ceremonial counting of the votes in a joint session with the #Senate.
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:58:11PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I vote you are hereby ex-communicated from the Cypherpunks club, joining Dimitry Vulis. At 07:05 PM 11/9/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: Huh? Tim has been posting such articles for years. You weren't around for the Y2K discussions. George, you've got to remember not to mess with Winston Smith. Unlike some people who need killing, yer just gonna get unpersoned Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
And the lawsuit has been filed. http://interactive.wsj.com/articles/SB973731700780133282.htm # #November 9, 2000 # #Lawsuit to Recover Lost Gore Votes Overshadows the Recount in #Florida # #By GLENN R. SIMPSON, JACKIE CALMES and CHAD TERHUNE Staff #Reporters of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL # #Overshadowing a state ballot recount in the tightest presidential #election in memory, Democrats filed suit to help Al Gore recover #thousands of votes he may have lost because of a confusing ballot #in Palm Beach County. # #Democratic State Sen. Ron Klein and lawyer Jeffrey Liggio, #official observers in the Palm Beach County recount, said county #officials disqualified 19,120 presidential votes here on Tuesday #because voters selected more than one candidate. That is about #4.14% of total votes cast in the county for president, an #unusually high figure, says Mr. Klein. # #The figures were confirmed by Carol Roberts, a county commissioner #and a member of the Palm Beach County canvassing board. She added #in an interview that ballots were rejected in the Florida Senate #contest at a far lower rate -- 0.82%. # #Democrats said they believe most of the disqualified votes were #cast for Al Gore and Pat Buchanan by confused voters who intended #to pick Mr. Gore, but inadvertently selected both men because #of the proximity of their names on the paper ballot. If they #are correct, the problem may have cost Mr. Gore a clear margin #of victory here statewide and could boost calls to overturn the #Florida results, which favored George W. Bush by less than 2,000 #votes. # #Late Wednesday, a suit was filed in Palm Beach County circuit #court by three local Democrats to force a new vote in the county #because of the allegedly confusing ballots. # #"It's pretty clear this ballot defect has thwarted the will of #the people in that county in an amount that would appear to be #in excess of the current margin between Bush and Gore statewide #-- well in excess," said Democratic ballot lawyer Chris Sautter, #an adviser to the Gore campaign who isn't involved in the suit. # #The layout of the ballot was intended to make it easier for #seniors to read. "Obviously, it didn't work that way," said Mr. #Klein. # #Democrats are exploring the possibility that the ballot design #violates state standards. An official in the governor's office #disputed the idea, saying the standards only apply to ballots #counted manually. # #Reeve Bright, a lawyer for the Republican Party of Palm Beach #County, conceded the 19,000 disqualified votes occurred. But #that doesn't mean the tossed-out votes were all for Gore, he #stressed. He added that he didn't know whether the total was #an unusually high one. # #"They're just blowing smoke," he said of Democrats' concerns. #"Are they trying to say the voters are that incompetent, that #they can't read and follow directions?" # #Complaints of ballot confusion and the lawsuit came as state #officials were outlining the process by which all 67 Florida #counties would recount the ballots cast Tuesday and help determine #which candidate wins the state's 25 electoral votes. As of #Wednesday morning, George W. Bush led by about 1,800 votes of #the nearly six million cast. # #"What happens here will determine the next presidency of the #United States," said Florida Attorney General Bob Butterworth. # #Appearing with Mr. Butterworth was Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, the #Republican candidate's brother. To avoid the appearance of a #conflict of interest, Jeb Bush said he won't serve on the #three-member state canvassing board that will meet to certify #final results after Florida counties complete their recount. # #State officials had set 5 p.m. Thursday as the deadline for the #recount, but the governor suggested a further wrinkle: An #estimated 3,000 ballots still arriving from Florida military #personnel abroad could further delay the outcome by as many as #10 days. # #Florida's electoral votes would give either Mr. Bush or Mr. Gore #the election. Without Florida, Mr. Gore leads narrowly in the #national popular vote, and he carried enough states to compile #260 electoral votes -- 10 shy of the 270 needed for an Electoral #College majority. Mr. Bush has 246 electoral votes. Besides #Florida, Oregon was also still too close to call Wednesday because #of delays in counting ballots in what was the state's first #mail-in presidential election. But Oregon's seven electoral votes #aren't enough to give either man the majority. # #Meanwhile, the two campaigns each dispatched a former U.S. #
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
Amusing. But that's a suggested ballot, and not one that's legally required. Which was my point. At the very least, the law is not as clear as the Dems want to claim. -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 11:42:42AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: #TO VOTE for a candidate whose name is printed on the ballot, #mark a cross (X) in the blank space at the RIGHT of the name #of the candidate for whom you desire to vote. To vote for a #candidate whose name is not printed on the ballot, write the #candidate's name in the blank space provided for that purpose. Yep: that was clear. Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: #(As a followup, I should say I see "RIGHT" in the sample ballot, You're so cute! C'mere...coootchi-coootchie-coo!!!
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
At 10:42 AM 11/9/00 -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote: It would be simpler, and probably fairer (in a general sense) to discard those ballots that are suspect. Elections such as this should not be re-run. Take it down to its most general form. Gore and Bush are tied. My ballot was mangled during processing and is unreadable; I successfully sue for a rerun of the election, just for my ballot alone. Is this a good thing? There are at least two problems with that 0) That's what happened now, and nobody likes it :-) 1) The ballots that appear to have been misvoted, about 19000 of them, disproportionately appear to have been for Gore, and not for Bush, so it seriously biases the results in that district. You could avoid this by voiding _all_ Presidential votes from the district. 2) The district itself is heavily Democrat, so voiding all their votes doesn't fix the imbalance either. Thanks! Bill Bill Stewart, [EMAIL PROTECTED] PGP Fingerprint D454 E202 CBC8 40BF 3C85 B884 0ABE 4639
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
Jim Burnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: #I could stomach 'might be illegal', but illegal? Warren Christopher was just on TV, calling the ballot illegal. Let's leave it at that until a court decides. Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: #And, of course, Palm County will _not_ be given a #second chance to vote in this election. I guarantee it. It's either that or the choice you liked even less. Protest crowds are growing. Bush can't take office when half the country thinks people were screwed out of their vote to have that happen. Not in America, buddy. And your hallucinatory Truck O' Dynamite will never change that. Declan, King of the Wired, wrote: #Amusing. But that's a suggested ballot, and not one #that's legally required. Which was my point. But the _directions_ were not "sample" directions. Florida is now saying it won't be until Nov 17th until they can certify the vote. Bush's lead is now only 359. Federal investigators are looking into U.S.P.O. funny business at one unnamed office.
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
Marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: # #However, FL 101.5609 is a much clearer point against #the "must be to the right" claims. # #101.5609(6): # Voting squares may be placed in front of or in back of the names # of candidates and statements of questions and shall be of such size as If you go by that text... Either "in front of", Or "in back of". It's a basic choice of one format or the other. Otherwise "And/Or" would have been used.
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
Huh? Tim has been posting such articles for years. You weren't around for the Y2K discussions. -Declan On Thu, Nov 09, 2000 at 05:58:11PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Spooky Cypherpunk Niggar Tim May Moroned: #When I hear Jesse Jackson saying that unless the Palm Beach voters #are given the chance to have a new vote there will be a race war, I #rejoice. # #I was just reading in misc.survivalism that some folks in Florida are #saying that if Al Gore and his Voters of Color succeed in twisting #the courts into stealing the election, that white folks will start #killing. # #Music to my ears. The fuse is burning on the powder keg. Holy shit! I vote you are hereby ex-communicated from the Cypherpunks club, joining Dimitry Vulis.
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
Do these folks need killing too? At 07:22 PM 11/9/00 , Tim May wrote: Fact is, voting is serious business. Those who show up dazed and confused and punch too many holes in their ballot are an example of social Darwinism. I have no sympathy for stupid people.
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
- Original Message - From: "Tim May" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fact is, voting is serious business. And this election is more serious than most others. The possible exile of Alec Baldwin depends on the votes of a few hundred senile Flordians. Ick.
Re: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
At 10:51 PM -0500 11/8/00, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ballot layout was illegal and resulted in a statistically verifiable set of erroneous votes for Bucanun. This is particularly galling to the voting victims, since many are Jewish. The ballot form was used in past elections, CNN reported today. The ballot was published in newspapers, to let people familiarize themselves with its form. And the head of the voting commission, who approved the ballot's final form, is a Democrat. Ballots are often of different forms. Sometimes a mechanical punch is used, sometimes a Number 2 pencil, sometimes a pen. There cannot be a re-vote of the County, or even of the entire State, as this would distort the forces acting on the electorate in a way never seen before. The Palm County voters would know _they_ would be electing the next president. Billions of dollars would be spent trying to buy each and every voter. And there is no precedent for using "statistics" by Democrat consultants to propose that votes be Buchanan be assigned to Gore. So Gore won't get those votes, and there won't be a County-wide revote. (If there is, I'll help in rigging the dynamite truck .) --Timothy McMay -- -:-:-:-:-:-:-: Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
RE: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
At 8:57 PM -0800 11/8/00, Ernest Hua wrote: There cannot be a re-vote of the County, or even of the entire State, as this would distort the forces acting on the electorate in a way never seen before. The Palm County voters would know _they_ would be electing the next president. Billions of dollars would be spent trying to buy each and every voter. "distort the forces ..." Lord! No! Don't let them do that! Geez, Tim. What happened to personal responsibility? Who gives two bits what "forces" will be upon them. They will ultimately still have to cast a vote which they were casting just days earlier. Who cares if idiots spend billions to sway a few thousand votes. That's THEIR problem. It's free speech, as you have claimed in the past. You're a complete idiot if you don't understand this point. I made my points, briefly, above. This would not be a matter of the same voters simply recasting their same ballots. Think about it. (I'm not convinced you can, Ernest. In reading hundreds of your posts I have concluded that you're just part of Vinge's "Slow Zone.") --Tim May -- -:-:-:-:-:-:-: Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, "Cyphernomicon" | black markets, collapse of governments.
RE: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins!
Title: RE: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! Well, Tim, maybe I'm just part of a huge conspiracy to piss you off. Or maybe you utter lots of theoretical purity of process without being the least bit accomodating to the fact that often times, in a large distributed process, things don't go as smoothly and as perfectly as you would prefer. You really should try managing a large organization or process and try to be able to claim that you can make it perfect. And, of course, to get to YOUR point ... What is different this time? Will their evil twins to be doing the voting? What? What is the problem? It's the same damn vote. One for one. If someone does not feel like fixing his/her vote, he shouldn't have to. If the second pass is a clean slate, then he/she can vote the same damn way again. I really don't get it. Do they get TWO votes this time? Are they now FORCED to vote even if they did not the first time? Let's face it, if there are forces, then they'll be there this time around as well. These people weren't objective one day, and the next day, they were suddenly sheeples toppled over by political ads. So what's the difference? Just spit it out, Tim. You just aren't talking substance, but you love insulting me ... What a way to communicate ... but maybe that's not your goal. Ern -Original Message- From: Tim May [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 9:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: A successful lawsuit means Gore wins! At 8:57 PM -0800 11/8/00, Ernest Hua wrote: There cannot be a re-vote of the County, or even of the entire State, as this would distort the forces acting on the electorate in a way never seen before. The Palm County voters would know _they_ would be electing the next president. Billions of dollars would be spent trying to buy each and every voter. distort the forces ... Lord! No! Don't let them do that! Geez, Tim. What happened to personal responsibility? Who gives two bits what forces will be upon them. They will ultimately still have to cast a vote which they were casting just days earlier. Who cares if idiots spend billions to sway a few thousand votes. That's THEIR problem. It's free speech, as you have claimed in the past. You're a complete idiot if you don't understand this point. I made my points, briefly, above. This would not be a matter of the same voters simply recasting their same ballots. Think about it. (I'm not convinced you can, Ernest. In reading hundreds of your posts I have concluded that you're just part of Vinge's Slow Zone.) --Tim May -- -:-:-:-:-:-:-: Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, ComSec 3DES: 831-728-0152 | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero W.A.S.T.E.: Corralitos, CA | knowledge, reputations, information markets, Cyphernomicon | black markets, collapse of governments.
