date:20011020


http://www.google.com/search?q=defacing+driver+license
-- 

 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: CDR: Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-20 Thread measl

On 20 Oct 2001, Dr. Evil wrote:

> > Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?

I believe they are all using ABA encoding.  Of course, I could also be
wrong :-)

> Do all states even have magstrips?

Again, I may be wrong, but IIRC, there is now n active effort to
standardize the physical properties of licenses.  Not long ago, we had
such a diversity of formas that it was impossible to detect real from
fake.  For example, until recently, the New York license was literally a
piece of paper (with no photo!), and the New Mexico license was the size
of the _insert_ you would normally see on a laminated card.

-- 
Yours, 
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and 
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

The views expressed here are mine, and NOT those of my employers,
associates, or others.  Besides, if it *were* the opinion of all of
those people, I doubt there would be a problem to bitch about in the
first place...

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Steve Furlong wrote:

> Jim, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that. A few minutes' checking
> (google and the revised code pages of a handful of states) shows that
> defacing a DL generally seems to be a violation, not even a misdemeanor.

Then you didn't look very hard at all.

Look into the 'fake license' laws for your state, they include defacing
such as replacing the photograph and such. That will also include the mag
stripe and the bar code.

You can go to jail for several years for defacing a license. In Texas it's
illegal to photocopy it except for official or business purposes.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Intelligent source?



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Donald J. Coones wrote:

> Please point to a strictly natural process that creates infoormation. 

Sex. Chemistry.

> What evidence is there that infoormation, such as that in DNA, could ever assemble 
>itself? 
> What about the 4,000 books of coded infoormation that are in a tiny part of each of 
>your 100 trillion cells? 
> If astronomers received an intelligent signal from some distant galaxy, most people 
>would conclude that it came from an intelligent source. 
> Why then doesn't the vast infoormation sequence in the DNA molecule of just a 
>bacteria also imply an intelligent source? 

Might want to check into B-Z Reactions as well. Prigogine's work is pretty
interesting. He has a book called "Order Out of Chaos" you might want to
get. He got the Nobel in something like '78 for chemistry.


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-20 Thread Steve Furlong


Jim Choate wrote:
> 
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> >  Looks like other states are doing the same thing. So much for
> > erasing the mag strip. But I suppose it would be fairly easy to paint
> > something over the
> > barcode like some plastic disolving solvent, making it unreadable.
> 
> Defacing a state DL is a felony in most places. You could get away with a
> shrug of the shoulders if the mag stripe was bad. The same can't be said
> of a barcode buried behind platic.

Jim, I'm going to have to call bullshit on that. A few minutes' checking
(google and the revised code pages of a handful of states) shows that
defacing a DL generally seems to be a violation, not even a misdemeanor.


-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)


Hmm, one of these would be handy.
http://www.eltroncards.com/printers/p520.htm

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

assasinating larry(measl is a bushit artist)

2001-10-20 Thread mattd


 > My belief is that every Congresscritter who voted to pass this USA Bill
 > should be tried and executed.

Amen.

 > As for the 600 "Arabic-looking" men (maybe a few women, I don't know)
 > being held without charges being filed in a timely way, I'll chortle if
 > even 10 of them become vengeance-seekers in the next 10 years.
 >
 > Someone held unjustly, without charges being filed, is morally obliged
 > to kill his oppressors.

Again, A-Fucking-Men!

 > --Tim May, Citizen-unit of of the once free United States
 > " The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood
 > of patriots & tyrants. "--Thomas Jefferson, 1787

-- 
Yours,
J.A. Terranson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

If Governments really want us to behave like civilized human beings, they
should give serious consideration towards setting a better example:
Ruling by force, rather than consensus; the unrestrained application of
unjust laws (which the victim-populations were never allowed input on in
the first place); the State policy of justice only for the rich and
elected; the intentional abuse and occassionally destruction of entire
populations merely to distract an already apathetic and numb electorate...
This type of demogoguery must surely wipe out the fascist United States
as surely as it wiped out the fascist Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

That was a blast from the not so distant past of one 'measl'...Now someone 
tries to put the fine words into effect
with tools apparently feared and taken seriously by the oppressors and they 
get asked by someone called measl
"did you take your meds today?" Thanks measles,thanks a hell of a lot.
Is ja terranson just another blowhard pantsdown republican paintballer?

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Harmon Seaver wrote:

>  Looks like other states are doing the same thing. So much for
> erasing the mag strip. But I suppose it would be fairly easy to paint
> something over the
> barcode like some plastic disolving solvent, making it unreadable.

Defacing a state DL is a felony in most places. You could get away with a
shrug of the shoulders if the mag stripe was bad. The same can't be said
of a barcode buried behind platic.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)


  According to the MI state page, MI has a a "strict" law limiting what
the mag stripe and barcode can contain, only the DL #, DOB, and
expiration date.
http://www.sos.state.mi.us/drlic/sos-365.html

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-20 Thread Steve Furlong

Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
>  Hmm, seems my DL is already out of date. WI is switching to a new
> form of barcode:
<<< 2-D barcode >>>
>  Looks like other states are doing the same thing. So much for
> erasing the mag strip. But I suppose it would be fairly easy to paint
> something over the
> barcode like some plastic disolving solvent, making it unreadable.

NYS has had these for years. (State motto: always leading in police
technology.)

My DL's barcode suffered just the sort of mishap you describe---solvent
over the plastic, discoloring it and making it unscannable. I've caught
a lot of crap from pigs who try to scan it into the little boxes in
their oinkmobiles, but no official censure or fine has come down. YMMV.

SRF

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel
  617-670-3793

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly
while bad people will find a way around the laws." -- Plato

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)


 Hmm, seems my DL is already out of date. WI is switching to a new
form of barcode:

http://www.dot.state.wi.us/dmv/digital.html

> License back contains information and new 2-D bar code
>
> The fee paid for the product is indicated
> on the top of the card. The
> two-dimensional bar code on the back of
> the document is coded with information
> from the front side of the card. The 2-D
> Bar Code is more durable and secure than
> the previously used magnetic stripe. The
> anatomical Gift Statement is covered with
> a special ink-permeable plastic which
> allows customers to write on this portion
> of the card.
>

 Looks like other states are doing the same thing. So much for
erasing the mag strip. But I suppose it would be fairly easy to paint
something over the
barcode like some plastic disolving solvent, making it unreadable.


--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

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RE: Assault Donuts

2001-10-20 Thread Xeni Jardin


souce url

RE: New kind of FUD :-)


Now HERE is where you need that microwave.

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer
> Sent: 20 October, 2001 13:16
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: New kind of FUD :-)
> 
> 
> Got this junk mail:
> 
> 
> Subject: CASH COPS PATROL AIRPORTS: for terrorism or tax collector?
> 
> 
> NEW MICROCHIP CAN TRACK CASH!
> A tiny new chip called "MEW", from Hitachi can be 
> woven into paper money, and used for identification  
> and surveillance tracking. The chip measures just 
> 0.4 millimeters on a side, and stores security codes.
> Airport police, called CASH COPS, already in 
> force, look forward to using the new technology.
> 
> TURN IN "OLD CASH" FOR "NEW CASH?"
> Several governments have already been testing this 
> technology and will probably be printing new money 
> very soon. Most likely people will have to change 
> the old currency for new currency. After that the 
> old money will probably be illegal to even possess.
> Governments will say it is a "State of Emergency" 
> for controlling terrorists, and it will probably 
> happen literally overnight. 
> 
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> 
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> SWISS TRUST MANAGING
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> 
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> 
> (pointers to spammer deleted)

RE: Retribution not enough


I don't blaim [sic] the government; I blame the economic system.

Free markets are good; any form of collectivism is bad.  In mixed economies,
the freer the better.  QED.

No amount of Inchoate hand waving alters that basic economic reality.
Sounds like Jimbo is in need of remedial reading, spelling AND economics
courses.


 S a n d y


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Jim Choate
> Sent: 20 October, 2001 16:07
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Retribution not enough
>
>
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:
>
> > More Inchoate reasoning.  Jimbo wrote:
> >
> > > The reality is that these sweatshops do
> > > exist, that they do exploit the workers...
> >
> > Gee, I wonder why these workers chose to be exploited instead
> of taking a
> > job somewhere else in their benighted non-capitalist countries where the
> > opportunities were better.  Maybe they aren't as smart as Jimbo
> and need to
> > be told they are being exploited.  :'D
>
> Because there isn't any other jobs to be had. They take what they can get.
>
> The fact (that escapes the CACL crowd among others) is that their choices
> are being manipulated and aren't free. Now you can blaim that on 'big
> business' or 'government' or whatever convenient fantasy you like.
>
> The final irrevocable fact is that PEOPLE DO IT TO PEOPLE. The 'how' isn't
> the real issue. CACL handwaving that its the 'government' is nothing more
> than spin doctor bullshit in their attempt to be 'the man'. Why else would
> they on one hand blaim the 'government' and then turn around and blaim the
> 'individuals'. It's odd they call 'the people' sheep while at the same
> time stating that they are the best ones (ie do away with government, go
> free market) to make their own decisions. Hypocrisy, until you realize
> they just want to be the one to do the exploiting.
>
>
>  --
> 
>
>  The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.
>
>  Edmund Burke (1784)
>
>The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
>Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
>-~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-
>

RE: Assault Donuts

2001-10-20 Thread Xeni Jardin

Tim May wrote:

> "WASHINGTON (Routers News Service) Because of false alarms involving the
> confectioner's sugar on powdered donuts, sale of so-called "assault
> donuts" will henceforth be restricted to law enforcement officers. "Cops
> have always been the largest consumers of donuts, this just makes them
> the _only_ legal purchaser of this particular kind of donut," said
> Department of Donuts spokesman Ring Annulus."

Don't laugh, there was an actual news item along these lines on Thursday. After
truth, powdered donuts are always the second casualty of war.

Then again, switching to crullers could be giving in to exactly what the
terrorists *want* us to do.
Thursday October 18 11:56 PM EDT

Powdered Doughnuts Make Customers Nervous

The anthrax scares has caused people to call 911 over bird droppings, talcum
powder and laundry detergent; and now even their morning doughnut is making
some people nervous.

Specifically doughnuts with powdered sugar are being affected at a DeBary
doughnut shop.

People can find glazed, chocolate, cinnamon crumb, and jelly-filled doughnuts 
but not a single one with powdered sugar.

"Because people are afraid of them. They're afraid of the powder on the
doughnut," employee Marie Cavalho said.

The manager of the Go For Donuts shop banned powdered pastries after a steady
customer picked up five-dozen on Monday, took them to a meeting and then called
to change the order.

"We said why? He said they won't eat them, they're afraid of them," Rosemary
Dorazio said. "They're afraid the powder might contain anthrax."

But the women who work the counter said that powdered sugar is simply powdered
sugar and the baker is the only one who touches the doughnuts before they are
set out for sale.

Still, the manager wanted customers to feel comfortable.

"If it makes them happy and at-ease why not give them what they want?" employee
Marie Carvalho asked.

The manager said that powdered doughnuts will stay off the shelf until
customers ask for them.

Sign of Escalating Threat

2001-10-20 Thread Anonymous sender


http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/17/national/17WEAP.html?pagewanted=print

Sign of Escalating ThreatBy STEPHEN ENGELBERG and JUDITH MILLERNews AnalysisThe 
discovery of what government officials say is high-grade anthraxin a letter mailed to 
Congress is the most worrisome development yetin a series of bioterrorist attacks that 
has already rattled thenation.The officials and weapons experts said yesterday that it 
suggestedthat somewhere, someone has access to the sort of germ weapons capableof 
inflicting huge casualties.So far, the officials said, the attacker or attackers have 
used arudimentary delivery system: the mail. Their intent and capabilitiesremain 
unknown, as does the amount of anthrax available to them. Butwhat worries the 
officials in Washington is the possibility that anadversary with even a small quantity 
could easily find much moreeffective means of spreading the disease.Until yesterday's 
preliminary analysis of the letter received by TomDaschle, the Senate majority leader, 
the spate of anthrax-lacedenvelopes stirred considerable anxie!
ty!
 but posed a limited threat.Some experts assumed that the anthrax being sent around 
the countrywas crudely made, composed mostly of large particles that fell to theground 
and thus endangered primarily those in the immediate area.What government officials 
say arrived in Senator Daschle's office wassignificantly more threatening. Following 
the use of anthrax inFlorida, it suggests that for the first time in history 
asophisticated form of anthrax has been developed and used as a weaponin warfare or 
bioterrorism.The key to understanding the danger, experts said, is in the size ofthe 
particles. The anthrax sent to Mr. Daschle, government officialssaid, was finely 
milled so that it would float a considerable distanceon the smallest of air 
currents.Producing germs that could be spread as a mist had been the maintechnical 
challenge facing germ warriors throughout the 20th century.Anthrax is what the Nobel 
laureate Joshua Lederberg calls a"professional pathogen," a hardy germ that co!
ul!
d wreak havoc ifinhaled. The trick was turning it into an aerosol that lingers.Decades 
ago, Soviet and American scientists separately devised methodsto dry and grind anthrax 
into the tiny particles  five microns orless  that could easily enter the nostrils 
and lodge in the lungs.Experts say an adversary armed with anthrax in this form would 
have ahost of possible targets for mass terrorism. Experiments by the UnitedStates in 
the 1960's showed that anthrax released in the New York Citysubway could spread widely 
underground, infecting large numbers ofpeople. Federal officials used a benign germ 
related to anthrax todemonstrate the possible effects.An enemy with large quantities 
of high-grade anthrax could mount acredible attack on a city or large office building. 
Dried anthraxcould be spread using a crop-duster or small airplane equipped withthe 
appropriate nozzles. Buildings are an easier target and could becontaminated with a 
much smaller amount of anthrax pumped through a!
ga!
rden spray bottle, experts say.Victims of an anthrax attack can be easily treated with 
antibiotics,but that requires that public health officials recognize the germ hasbeen 
dispersed at a particular location. Experts say that detectionequipment is far from 
reliable, which means the first signs could comewhen people show up in the emergency 
room with flulike symptoms.Anthrax was one of the most important weapons in both the 
SovietUnion's and the United States' germ weapons arsenals.Officials from both 
countries say they never used germ weapons, thoughKen Alibek, a prominent defector 
from the Soviet germ warfare program,maintains that Moscow may have used germs as 
weapons against Germanyand in Afghanistan.The United States abandoned its own germ 
program in 1969, and soonafter most of the world's nations signed an international 
treatybanning the development and possession of such weapons.The Soviet Union also 
signed the pact, but cheated on a massive scale,say former Soviet off!
ic!
ials who worked to refine the strains ofanthrax, among other germs, until the fall of 
the Soviet Union in1990.In the 1980's, other nations, notably Iraq, began developing 
the germas a weapon. Iraqi scientists spent more than five years on theproject, 
cultivating anthrax and processing it into a wet slurry thatwas loaded into bombs and 
missiles.United Nations inspectors who later studied the Iraqi program saidBaghdad did 
not manage to produce dry anthrax that could be deliveredas an aerosol though it did 
buy specialized nozzles for its fleet ofcrop- dusters.In the years since, United 
Nations officials say, Iraq has acquiredthe capability to produce the high-grade, dry 
anthrax of theappropriate particle size.None of this history gives investigators much 
of a hint as to theorigins of the current attack. It is not clear whether the 
anthraxsent to Senator Daschle was produced by the

Zen Terrorism

2001-10-20 Thread Tabla bin Rasa


Zen Terrorism: sending random letters which say, "No anthrax here.
Have a nice day."

Re: Retribution not enough

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, David Honig wrote:

> \begin{asbestos}
> In a centrally-ruled (statist) society some elites decide what *should* 
> make *others* happy.  And forces everyone to pay for it.
> Not only doomed in reality, but immoral.
> \end{}

This isn't 'government' (statist or otherwise), it's human psychology.

The bottom line is there is always some segement of any(!) human
population that thinks their 'better', 'smarter', etc. And they will act,
irrespective of the form of social structure they may be in.

This is the fundamental failure of all CACL theory. It draws a false
distinction between 'government' and 'people'. It's a simple failure of
logic, imagination, and maturity.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-20 Thread Dr. Evil


> You mean the magstripe on your license still carries information? 
> Give that man a magnet.

There's an even simpler alternative: Sure, CA licenses may have this
mag strip, but the format is not universal throughout the world, or
even the US.  Carry your passport, which doesn't have a mag strip
(last time I checked).  Carry a foreign drivers license.  Do you know
how easy it is to get a drvers license in some foreign countries?
They should be valid ID for a bar in California.  Next time I'm in
some unknown little third world country I will make a point of picking
up an official government-issued id.  "Yes, Mr. Bouncer, this is my
government-issued photo ID.  Yes, Tajikistan is very cold this time of
year."

As for legality of it, it may be legal but it's a sleazy thing to do.
I'm sure we are going to see more of this.  Larry Ellison may not get
his exact dream to come true, but there will certainly be real-time ID
verification databases with good net connections, so the teller at the
bank will be able to swipe your ID and see your photo come up on his
screen.  This makes forging an ID essentially impossible, unless you
can also hack into the DB in some way.

> Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?

Do all states even have magstrips?

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-20 Thread Karsten M. Self

on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 05:48:44PM -0500, Harmon Seaver
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> "Dr. Evil" wrote:
>
> > > Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?
> >
> > Do all states even have magstrips?
>
>   You know, I never even realized until right now that my DL has a mag
> strip. This is a new thing for WI, I think. Pretty sure my recent MN didn't
> have one. I guess the more interesting thing would be, before wiping it
out,
> to figure out a way to read it.

http://www.google.com/search?q=drivers+license+magnetic+stripe

California, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Texas, and Wisconsin, notably.

See also:  http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/13.18.html

[From California SB 1447, 1992, the "Privacy Act of 1992"]

SECTION 2: INFORMATION OBTAINED FROM DRIVER'S LICENSES

This section requires the written consent of a consumer for a
business entity to (1) sell information obtained from the consumer's
driver's license or (2) use such information to advertise goods or
services.

The section is intended to cover instances where a consumer presents
a driver's license or identification card for identification
purposes during a business transaction.  The section is not intended
to prevent businesses from using driver's license information for
business record-keeping, or for other purposes related to the
transaction (i.e. authorizing a transaction).

The section is not intended to change existing law with respect to
the ability of businesses to obtain driver's license information
from other sources (such as DMV records).

The need for this section is heightened by the new "magstripe"
drivers license developed by the Department of Motor Vehicles.  This
license has a magnetic stripe on the back which contains much of the
information on the front of the license.  The stripe will enable a
business entity to store information contained on a driver's license
simply by scanning the card through a reader.

A publication by the Department of Motor Vehicles dated May 1991
("Department of Motor Vehicles Magnetic Stripe Drivers
License/Identification Card") states that "using point of sale (POS)
readers and printers, the business community can electronically
record the DL [driver's license] /ID number on receipts and business
records."  The publication notes that "magnetic stripe readers are
readily available, relatively low in cost, and are already available
in many retail outlets."

However, a merchant might access much more than the driver's
license/ID number; the publication notes that "readers have been
produced, and market available readers can be modified that will
read the three tracks of information contained on the California
card."  According to the publication, the tracks contain information
such as license type, name, address, sex, hair-color, eye-color,
height, weight, restrictions, issue date.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Re: CDR: RE: Retribution not enough

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Sandy Sandfort wrote:

> More Inchoate reasoning.  Jimbo wrote:
> 
> > The reality is that these sweatshops do
> > exist, that they do exploit the workers...
> 
> Gee, I wonder why these workers chose to be exploited instead of taking a
> job somewhere else in their benighted non-capitalist countries where the
> opportunities were better.  Maybe they aren't as smart as Jimbo and need to
> be told they are being exploited.  :'D

Because there isn't any other jobs to be had. They take what they can get.

The fact (that escapes the CACL crowd among others) is that their choices
are being manipulated and aren't free. Now you can blaim that on 'big
business' or 'government' or whatever convenient fantasy you like.

The final irrevocable fact is that PEOPLE DO IT TO PEOPLE. The 'how' isn't
the real issue. CACL handwaving that its the 'government' is nothing more
than spin doctor bullshit in their attempt to be 'the man'. Why else would
they on one hand blaim the 'government' and then turn around and blaim the
'individuals'. It's odd they call 'the people' sheep while at the same
time stating that they are the best ones (ie do away with government, go
free market) to make their own decisions. Hypocrisy, until you realize
they just want to be the one to do the exploiting.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-20 Thread Dr. Evil


>   You know, I never even realized until right now that my DL has a mag
> strip. This is a new thing for WI, I think. Pretty sure my recent MN didn't
> have one. I guess the more interesting thing would be, before wiping it out,
> to figure out a way to read it.

I'm sure you can buy card readers that will read it, but I'm equally
sure you won't find anything sinister on it.  From what I understand,
all they put on the back is a machine-readable version of the text
that's on the front.  Nothing mysterious.

Sooner or later the strips will be replaced with some kind of
tamper-resistant smart chips, and then we will have a much harder time
knowing what's on the chip.

What's disgusting about Larry is that he wants to impose this on
everyone but himself.  When he checks into a hotel, do you think he
whips out the Larry credit card and drivers license?  No, of course
not.  He has an assistant who checks in for him.  He is completely
anonymous in this case.  When he gets on a commercial plane, does he
have to show id and have his bags searched and remove all metal
objects?  No, of course not because he doesn't fly on commercial
planes.  I'm sure that the actual number of times Larry has to show ID
or use his personal credit card per year are pretty close to zero.

Compare that to the average American, who will have to show
Larry-ID(tm) every time he does any kind of financial transaction,
travels anywhere, goes to a bar, goes to the gym, goes to a library,
rents a movie, signs up with an ISP, or anything.

Re: Retribution not enough

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Tim May wrote:

> Talking about "low wage sweat shop jobs" indicates profound confusion on 
> your part.
> 
> Sorry to be so blunt, but this is the way it is. Henry Hazlitt wrote a 
> good book on basic economics.
> 
> I doubt I can convince you in a few paragraphs, but consider some 
> miscellaneous points, which are all closely related:
> 
> * "Low wage" compared to _what_?

What it takes to have reasonable living standards and sufficient resources
to help ones children do better than themselves. The reality is that these
sweatshops do exist, that they do exploit the workers, and that they are
specifically managed to keep the workers from exploiting economic, social,
and educational resources. Why? Because if the producers allow this
behaviour they put themselves out of business.

> * Comparing the wages to U.S. wages is not meaningful, for many reasons.

It isn't the wages, it's the human condition that is comparable. The
econimics are only a single measure of a multi-variant situation.

> * To those getting paid $300 an hour, most jobs in the U.S. are "low 
> wage sweat shops." Perhaps the U.N. can attempt to force U.S. average 
> wages to be raised?

Very(!) few people get $300/hr. However, the vast majority of peoples in
N. America and Europe manage to have a substantialy higher quality of life
style than in S. America, Africa, and the Middle/Far East. Why? Because
they lack a fundamental belief, let alone respect for, human beings. They
are seen as nothing more than another resource to be used for ones own
advancement (and this implies that those used are denied their
opportunities).

> * If the labor is being "exploited" by being paid "too little," this is 
> an excellent opportunity for an efficient producer to enter the market 
> and offer more. Henry Ford did this with car production early in the 
> 20th century, Intel is doing it now with factories in Malaysia, Costa 
> Rica, and mainlaind China. More "globalization" explotin' da peeples, I 
> guess.

If the market were open, it isn't. The reality is that the market is
controlled in such a way as to keep the status quo. This ensures the
political, social, and economics supremacy of a small minority at the
expense of the many.

> "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
> exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
> the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
> the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
> the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
> always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler

This bozo can't tell the difference between a 'socialism' (which is what
he's describing) and a 'dictatorship'. Sounds more like he's begging the
question.

 --

 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Re: http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/20/anthrax/


At 01:44 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>At 12:20 AM 10/20/2001 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>"Northwest Airlines has banned sugar substitutes and non-dairy creamers
>>from its airplanes to avoid anthrax scares sparked by the white, powdery
>>substances."
>>
>>ROTFLOL!
>
>
>Does that mean they're switching over to actual milk or cream for coffee?
>At least there's some good coming out of this :-)

Just half-and-half, not cream.  Anything over 50% cream is now an 
assault dairy product.

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

"Dr. Evil" wrote:

> > Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?
>
> Do all states even have magstrips?

  You know, I never even realized until right now that my DL has a mag
strip. This is a new thing for WI, I think. Pretty sure my recent MN didn't
have one. I guess the more interesting thing would be, before wiping it out,
to figure out a way to read it.

--
Harmon Seaver, MLIS
CyberShamanix
Work 920-203-9633
Home 920-233-5820
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html

Assault Donuts

2001-10-20 Thread Tim May

On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 03:09 PM, David Honig wrote:

> At 01:44 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Bill Stewart wrote:
>> At 12:20 AM 10/20/2001 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> "Northwest Airlines has banned sugar substitutes and non-dairy 
>>> creamers
>>> from its airplanes to avoid anthrax scares sparked by the white, 
>>> powdery
>>> substances."

>> Does that mean they're switching over to actual milk or cream for 
>> coffee?
>> At least there's some good coming out of this :-)
>
> Just half-and-half, not cream.  Anything over 50% cream is now an
> assault dairy product.

"WASHINGTON (Routers News Service) Because of false alarms involving the 
confectioner's sugar on powdered donuts, sale of so-called "assault 
donuts" will henceforth be restricted to law enforcement officers. "Cops 
have always been the largest consumers of donuts, this just makes them 
the _only_ legal purchaser of this particular kind of donut," said 
Department of Donuts spokesman Ring Annulus."

--Tim May
"The State is the great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the 
expense of everyone else." --Frederic Bastiat

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Re: Retribution not enough

2001-10-20 Thread Tim May

On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 01:17 PM, Steve Schear wrote:

> At 01:42 PM 10/20/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>> > The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand
>> > globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks 
>> and
>> > narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no 
>> idea what
>>
>> When I speak of globalization, I mean removing barriers imposed by 
>> government
>> to voluntary exchanges between consenting people. Sounds good to me.
>
> Unfortunately, many citizens in the developing world are not party to 
> these "voluntary" exchanges, but are directly affected.  I've read the 
> reports of the many low wage sweat shop jobs, mainly performed by young 
> women, in these countries and that their alternative is worse.  In a 
> way one could portray their situations as dismal but not dire, sort of 
> along the on-screen comments of Arthur to the prostitute is dinning 
> with "... so you might say you're having a relatively good time?"
>
> In the short term economic inequalities and human rights abuses may be 
> exacerbated (e.g., the fate of rural mainland Chinese).  The long-term 
> effects of globalization are as yet unknown.

Talking about "low wage sweat shop jobs" indicates profound confusion on 
your part.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this is the way it is. Henry Hazlitt wrote a 
good book on basic economics.

I doubt I can convince you in a few paragraphs, but consider some 
miscellaneous points, which are all closely related:

* "Low wage" compared to _what_?

* Comparing the wages to U.S. wages is not meaningful, for many reasons.

* To those getting paid $300 an hour, most jobs in the U.S. are "low 
wage sweat shops." Perhaps the U.N. can attempt to force U.S. average 
wages to be raised?

* If the labor is being "exploited" by being paid "too little," this is 
an excellent opportunity for an efficient producer to enter the market 
and offer more. Henry Ford did this with car production early in the 
20th century, Intel is doing it now with factories in Malaysia, Costa 
Rica, and mainlaind China. More "globalization" explotin' da peeples, I 
guess.

--Tim May
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only 
exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from 
the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for 
the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with 
the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy 
always followed by dictatorship." --Alexander Fraser Tyler

RE: Retribution not enough

More Inchoate reasoning.  Jimbo wrote:

> The reality is that these sweatshops do
> exist, that they do exploit the workers...

Gee, I wonder why these workers chose to be exploited instead of taking a
job somewhere else in their benighted non-capitalist countries where the
opportunities were better.  Maybe they aren't as smart as Jimbo and need to
be told they are being exploited.  :'D

 S a n d y

First Days #25FE

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Followup - Re: Risks of bogus e-mail addresses

2001-10-20 Thread Bill Stewart

--

Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:26:25 -0400
From: Sascha Mattke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Risks of bogus e-mail addresses "FROM: ObL" (Wayner, RISKS-21.68)

That news is nonsense.  I talked with the priest who was cited on vnunet.
He said that some Filipino members of his church received that sms and were
also questioned by the police (very politely, he stressed), but this was in
no way related to receiving the sms.  The padre basically said that the
story was made up by a leftist ngo called Migrante International, then
printed without research by the inquirer, and then found its way on the net.
He and some Filipinos are now demanding the ngo to apologize for spreading
fear with the relatives of the questioned people.

Sascha Mattke, Redaktion BIZZ, Stolberger Strasse 200, 50933 Koeln
Tel +49 (0) 221 - 5341-575  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.bizz.de

Re: Retribution not enough

At 01:17 PM 10/20/01 -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>At 01:42 PM 10/20/2001 -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>>On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
>> > The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand
>> > globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks and
>> > narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no idea
what
>>
>>When I speak of globalization, I mean removing barriers imposed by
government
>>to voluntary exchanges between consenting people. Sounds good to me.
>
>Unfortunately, many citizens in the developing world are not party to these 
>"voluntary" exchanges, but are directly affected.  

So?  Everyone *everywhere* is 'affected' by everyone elses' decisions.
Everything
you consume or make affects the global supply:demand and therefore price.

>In the short term economic inequalities and human rights abuses may be 
>exacerbated (e.g., the fate of rural mainland Chinese).  The long-term 
>effects of globalization are as yet unknown.

The effects of unfree localized trade are well known: regular folks
see higher prices.  Even if trade is global but unfree, they see
artificial tariffs.  To say nothing of the peasant who can't *choose*
a better job in a factory because of unfree trade.

>>You seem to think of liberal global trade as a zero-sum game. This is
>>an elementary error. Instead, liberal global trade is what economists
>>would call an "expanding pie" where additional wealth is created.

Additionally, free trade leads to (purely voluntary, emergent) optimization.
(If I can make X or Y, but you can make X but not Y cheaper, I'll make Y
and you make X.)

No one forces a farmer to the city to look for an industrial job.
No one forces industrial folks to seek service jobs.  Its economics
and psychology.

>Agreed, but wealth is only one measure of human happiness and the jury is 
>still out on whether the vast majority of those indirectly affected by 
>globalization will find it has been in their best interests.

Guess what: in a free society, no one is in charge of optimizing happiness.
Well, each individual is responsible for their own.  Since others can't
tell what makes each individual happy, this is again optimal.

\begin{asbestos}
In a centrally-ruled (statist) society some elites decide what *should* 
make *others* happy.  And forces everyone to pay for it.
Not only doomed in reality, but immoral.
\end{}

Re: Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

>on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 12:56:02PM -0700, Giovanna Imbesi
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
>> Last night my friend and I stopped at a Venice club/bar.  At the door
>> they were doing the normal ID check, but then took my driver's license
>> and swiped it into a little Palm-like device...and all the info popped
>> up on the screen.  

Venice Italy or Calif (etc.)?  Never mind -I saw the 310, so I'll
ignore your Italian name.  Amerika.

You mean the magstripe on your license still carries information? 
Give that man a magnet.

Do different states use different formats for the data on the magstrip?

>>Is this even legal? 

You chose to give them your bits.  They could ask for a thumbprint
too, or AIDS test result, or DNA sample.  Big deal.  If you don't 
want to play their game, go away.  Having signed no contract to 
keep that info private or unexploited, expect some junk mail.

Having a copy of someone's info is not fraudulent behavior.  There's
lots of clubs that don't probe your orifices so much.  

Aren't they
>> authorized to check date-of-birth but no more?  

They aren't authorized to do anything.  They have to make sure they don't
sell ethanol to those the govt deems unfit or the govt shuts them down with
force.   How they verify this is up to them, as is the risk.

Re: http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/20/anthrax/

2001-10-20 Thread Bill Stewart

At 12:20 AM 10/20/2001 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>"Northwest Airlines has banned sugar substitutes and non-dairy creamers
>from its airplanes to avoid anthrax scares sparked by the white, powdery
>substances."
>
>ROTFLOL!

Does that mean they're switching over to actual milk or cream for coffee?
At least there's some good coming out of this :-)

Re: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?

2001-10-20 Thread Karsten M. Self


on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 10:17:31AM -0700, Tim May ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 09:13 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:
>
> > Dare I say it? Another reason to use just 7-bit ASCII.
> >
> > I'm not particularly religious on this issue, but for text-based
> > discussions like the ones we have here, anything else just doesn't
> > seem necessary, and can lead to strange results like what we just saw.

> As for the "degrees" issue, confusion about the symbol was one of the
> reasons the scientific community abandoned use of the symbol at least
> 30 years ago. 212 F and 100 C are the accepted ways of reporting
> temperature...the degree symbol was redundant anyway and led to
> typesetting problems.

Thanks, wasn't aware of that.

Peace.

--
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]

Clubbing in Fortress Amerika (fwd)

2001-10-20 Thread Karsten M. Self


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Life is a Cabaret, my friends.

on Sat, Oct 20, 2001 at 12:56:02PM -0700, Giovanna Imbesi ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> Last night my friend and I stopped at a Venice club/bar.  At the door
> they were doing the normal ID check, but then took my driver's license
> and swiped it into a little Palm-like device...and all the info popped
> up on the screen.  I was startled, amused and outraged all at the same
> time.  My friend knows the new owners of the building and told me that
> the owners had rented part of the upstairs space to a guy with a youth
> marketing company, also coincidentally a long-time friend of his.
> What are they doing with this information?  I've been wondering what
> real implications a national ID card would present and here was a
> clear example of potential abuse.  Is this even legal? Aren't they
> authorized to check date-of-birth but no more?  Is it legal to retain
> the data?  What data is stored in the magnetic stripe on a California
> driver's license - name, address, DOB, license #, and signature? 
> 
> On the way out I asked if we got our data back but only got a nervous
> laugh in reply.  
> 
> G.
> 
> 
> Giovanna Imbesi
> TuttoMedia
> http://www.tuttomedia.com
> 310-399-2800
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 
> -
> This is the pho mailing list, managed by Majordomo 1.94.4.
> 
> To send a message to the list, email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To send a request to majordomo, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put your
> request in the body of the message (use request "help" for help).
> To unsubscribe from the list, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put
> "unsubscribe pho" in the body of the message.

- -- 
Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://kmself.home.netcom.com/
 What part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? Home of the brave
  http://gestalt-system.sourceforge.net/   Land of the free
   Free Dmitry! Boycott Adobe! Repeal the DMCA! http://www.freesklyarov.org
Geek for Hire http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.html
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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rLjWNMMw6+UefXhnRwN8x60=
=tBCH
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Re: Retribution not enough

2001-10-20 Thread Declan McCullagh

On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 05:35:53PM -0700, Steve Schear wrote:
> The direction of all recent administrations has been to expand 
> globalization (i.e., interdependency) thus increasing economic risks and 
> narrowing diplomatic choices.  In the short term, and we have no idea what 

When I speak of globalization, I mean removing barriers imposed by government
to voluntary exchanges between consenting people. Sounds good to me.

You seem to think of liberal global trade as a zero-sum game. This is
an elementary error. Instead, liberal global trade is what economists
would call an "expanding pie" where additional wealth is created.

-Declan

Re: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?

2001-10-20 Thread Tim May

On Saturday, October 20, 2001, at 09:13 AM, Declan McCullagh wrote:

> Dare I say it? Another reason to use just 7-bit ASCII.
>
> I'm not particularly religious on this issue, but for text-based
> discussions like the ones we have here, anything else just doesn't
> seem necessary, and can lead to strange results like what we just saw.
>
> -Declan
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:13:19PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>> Above mistranslates ISO-8859-1 encoded \260 (octal), the degree sign, 
>> as
>> a zero.
>>
>> Temperatures should read 220 F, 270 F, and 280 F, not thousands of
>> degrees.
>
>

As Declan says, and as many of us have said, there are _abundant_ 
reasons to try to stick to 7-bit ASCII on mailing lists and on Usenet. 
It's not surprising to me that it is Karsten M. Self, whom I had to 
killfile, is quoted above in this issue. He was always complaining that 
posts should be "formatted for legibility," via his nags and reposts, 
but then he has MIME encrustations on his posts.

As for the "degrees" issue, confusion about the symbol was one of the 
reasons the scientific community abandoned use of the symbol at least 30 
years ago. 212 F and 100 C are the accepted ways of reporting 
temperature...the degree symbol was redundant anyway and led to 
typesetting problems.

--Tim May

--Tim May
"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any 
member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to 
others. His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient 
warrant." --John Stuart Mill

French Nazis charge student with speaking freely

2001-10-20 Thread Khoder bin Hakkin


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20011019/aponline151310_000.htm

French Teen Leads Bin Laden Cheer

The Associated Press
Friday, Oct. 19, 2001; 3:13 p.m. EDT

STRASBOURG, France  A French teen-ager was placed
under investigation after he allegedly organized a
demonstration at his junior high school where students called
out "Long live bin Laden," judicial officials said Friday.

  A juvenile court judge in Strasbourg placed the
15-year-old
  under formal investigation  one step short of being
charged 
  on Thursday for "justifying acts of terrorism," the
officials
  said.

  The judge ordered the student to remain under the
  surveillance of a teacher.

  For adults, the charge of "justifying acts of
terrorism" can
  carry up to five years in prison and a $42,000 fine.

  The teen-ager is believed to have organized a
demonstration
  Monday at the Lezay-Marnesia school in Strasbourg, in
  eastern France. About 100 students gathered in the
courtyard,
  burned a pair of red-white-and-blue underwear and
cried out
  "Long live (Osama) bin Laden, down with the
Americans."

  Bin Laden is suspected in the Sept. 11 terror attacks
on the
  World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

AUTO: WINNER CONFIRMATION

2001-10-20 Thread field6025


 




  

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Calendar from Egypt: Image of WTC attack for month of Sept.

2001-10-20 Thread citizenQ


http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/27/124953.shtml

"A calendar which was printed in Egypt and
for the month of September shows a
crashing passenger plane with Manhattan
and the Statue of Liberty as a backdrop --
and which was printed in May, a full three
months before the Sept. 11 terrorist
attacks on America -- has caused an
uproar in the Dutch town of Almere,
Netherlands, the newspaper De Telegraaf
reported yesterday."

Re: Ridge is lying, spores are pro



On Sat, 20 Oct 2001, Khoder bin Hakkin wrote:

> In Washington, Ridge told reporters the anthrax analyzed in the United
> States had not been ``weaponized,'' meaning it had not been manipulated
> to
> facilitate inhalation by potential victims.

And to resist antibiotics.


 --


 The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion.

 Edmund Burke (1784)

   The Armadillo Group   ,::;::-.  James Choate
   Austin, Tx   /:'/ ``::>/|/  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   www.ssz.com.',  `/( e\  512-451-7087
   -~~mm-'`-```-mm --'-

Ridge is lying, spores are pro

2001-10-20 Thread Khoder bin Hakkin


Consider these two reports: Bozo Ridge downplaying the weaponization
of the spores, contradicted by another source; and the Feebs
questioning NJ-mailbox-locals about knowing "chemists".

Makes one think the Quality is Very High and Ridge is lying.

We have always been at war with Oceania bin Laden.


In Washington, Ridge told reporters the anthrax analyzed in the United
States had not been ``weaponized,'' meaning it had not been manipulated
to
facilitate inhalation by potential victims.

Even so, one participant in a conference call for lawmakers said Robert
Gibbs, a Defense Department official, reported the anthrax was of
``relative
high quality'' and that ``there is an effort to downplay and not promote
the
abilities of the people doing this.'' The participant spoke on condition
of
anonymity.



Samantha Pae, 34, said she, her fiance, and her fiance's
mother were interviewed by FBI officers, who asked
them how long they had lived in the area and whether
they had noticed any suspicious activity or observed
vehicles with out-of-state plates. The agents also asked
them to provide their Social Security numbers, she said.

"They hit every house in the development area today,"
she said, adding that she had not seen any strange people
or unusual behavior. Charlotte Kaplan Piepszak, who has
lived in the neighborhood for 30 years, said FBI agents
asked similar questions of her.

"And then they asked if I knew any chemists," she said.



http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011020/ts/attacks_anthrax_95.html
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-102001anthrax.story

Larry Ellison: front page biz section: detail plan 4 nat. id.

2001-10-20 Thread citizenQ


"This week Ellison offered specifics about his proposal in an interview..."

"The new ID's would be voluntary for everyone except immigrants..."

"Q: why is a national ID necessary? A: All ... IDs are different and they are easy to 
counterfeit.  My pilot's license ... is cut from a piece of cardboard."

"Q: You've offered ... the database software for free.  What about maintenance, tech 
support and upgrades?  A: In terms of associated services we have a very wealthy 
government. I don't think the government has any trouble paying for the labor 
associated with the software...   What's in it for me is the same thing that's in it 
for you: a safer America."

"Q: How do you take this beyond the talking stage? A: I've been back in Washington 
talking to the FBI, the CIA, ... had lunch with Attorney General Ashcroft...there are 
meetings planned at the White House..."

...ad nauseum

sample Ellison ID card online

2001-10-20 Thread citizenQ


http://www.templetons.com/brad/oracard.html

Good for a laff.

An interesting irony, according to the site: Ellison's family took their name from 
Ellis Island immigration center.  Larry wants the ID mandatory for immigrants.

RE: Retribution Time


Hear, hear.

This sort of crap is the inevitable outcome of an unmoderated list.  All the
loons come out to play because there are no real negative consequences for
being a loon.  And filtering does not do anything besides bury one's head in
the sand.

I have an solution... (no, it's not AP).  :'D

I promise, when I get my new business going and have the time/money to
devote to it, I will offer Cypherpunks a real solution.  (Anybody who has
time/money and wants to discuss it now, please contact me offline.)

We now return you to the freak show, already in progress.


 S a n d y

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Jon Beets
> Sent: 20 October, 2001 08:03
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Retribution Time
>
>
> Ooookay..
>
> The really sad part is you either think your really cool typing
> this crap or
> you lack any real social skills... Probably both
>
> Jon Beets
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Nomen Nescio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:30 PM
> Subject: Retribution Time
>
>
> > De time be almost here, good peoples. Time to get yours.
> > You know what I and I be talkin about -- no more fuckin
> > around about it. All dem pigs and feds jes be sooo busy
> > wid dem bin Ladens, dey got no time for us simple folks.
> >Time be for I and I to git what we bin waitin for. Git
> > dem muthafuckas dat bin fuckin wid us all dis time. Git
> > dem pigs, git dem judges, git dem bill collectors, git dem
> > banks and take all dat money. Git em all, let God sort dem
> > out. Fuck shit up, any way you ken think of. Git dem assholes
> > what done you wrong, git dem assholes doin everbody wrong.
> > But above all, git you some money!
> >
> >I and I be talkin somemore bout dis shit pretty soon, hey!
> >
> > Bo Strange

Re: stupid anthrax q: would microwaving your snail mail help?

2001-10-20 Thread Declan McCullagh

Dare I say it? Another reason to use just 7-bit ASCII. 

I'm not particularly religious on this issue, but for text-based 
discussions like the ones we have here, anything else just doesn't
seem necessary, and can lead to strange results like what we just saw.

-Declan

On Fri, Oct 19, 2001 at 04:13:19PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> Above mistranslates ISO-8859-1 encoded \260 (octal), the degree sign, as
> a zero.
> 
> Temperatures should read 220 F, 270 F, and 280 F, not thousands of
> degrees.

Re: Retribution Time

2001-10-20 Thread Jon Beets


Ooookay..

The really sad part is you either think your really cool typing this crap or
you lack any real social skills... Probably both

Jon Beets


- Original Message -
From: "Nomen Nescio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 9:30 PM
Subject: Retribution Time


> De time be almost here, good peoples. Time to get yours.
> You know what I and I be talkin about -- no more fuckin
> around about it. All dem pigs and feds jes be sooo busy
> wid dem bin Ladens, dey got no time for us simple folks.
>Time be for I and I to git what we bin waitin for. Git
> dem muthafuckas dat bin fuckin wid us all dis time. Git
> dem pigs, git dem judges, git dem bill collectors, git dem
> banks and take all dat money. Git em all, let God sort dem
> out. Fuck shit up, any way you ken think of. Git dem assholes
> what done you wrong, git dem assholes doin everbody wrong.
> But above all, git you some money!
>
>I and I be talkin somemore bout dis shit pretty soon, hey!
>
> Bo Strange

Re: http://www.cnn.com/2001/HEALTH/conditions/10/20/anthrax/