Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Šarūnas]

On 2/18/19 8:19 PM, Robert Krawitz wrote:
> Thanks -- and you see why I harp on this; I need to squeeze everything
> I can out of the workflow.  Over the past few years, I've put a lot of
> work into performance tuning KPhotoAlbum to squeeze time out of image
> loading and that, and anything that adds a few seconds per image is a
> real problem for me.

Hmm... what's all the rush? :)

Šarūnas


___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Robert Krawitz]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 23:32:07 +0100, thokster wrote:
> Am 18.02.19 um 22:48 schrieb Robert Krawitz:
>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 22:37:06 +0100, thokster wrote:
>>> Maybe it's faster for your workflow.
>>>
>>> You can add a preset for e.g. your original aspect ratio and
>>> configure a keyboard shortcut.
>> The original aspect ratio is irrelevant.  I crop each shot freehand to
>> get the composition I want; there is no common pattern.  See
>> https://rlk.smugmug.com/Sports/Basketball/MIT-Clark-Mens-Basketball-Feb-13-2019
>> for an example of what I do.
> Nice shots and really a lot of work.

Thanks -- and you see why I harp on this; I need to squeeze everything
I can out of the workflow.  Over the past few years, I've put a lot of
work into performance tuning KPhotoAlbum to squeeze time out of image
loading and that, and anything that adds a few seconds per image is a
real problem for me.
-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton
___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Fwd: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org

[Bruce Williams]

Ahhh, ok!
Thanks for that.
Cheers,
Bruce Williams
--
Mobile:  +61 41 250 6349

audio2u.com
brucewilliamsphotography.com
shuttersincpodcast.com
sinelanguagepodcast.com

e-mail  | Twitter  |
LinkedIn  | Facebook
 | Soundcloud
 | Quora

--




-- Forwarded message -
From: Bernhard 
Date: Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org
To: 


it is, but the link was broken into two lines. You have to add the
"resources.md" in the second line.
Let's see if it works like this:
https://github.com/mepi0011/dtorg/blob/master/content/pages/resources/resources.md

-- 

regards
Bernhard
https://www.bilddateien.de

Bruce Williams schrieb am 18.02.19 um 20:26:

Pierre,
Thanks, but when I followed that link, I don't know what I was looking at,
but it certainly wasn't a preview of the darktable site!
Thanks anyway. 
Cheers,
Bruce Williams.

-- Forwarded message -
From: openhab.doc 
Date: Tue., 19 Feb. 2019, 03:43
Subject: Re: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org
To: 


Hey Bruce,

as written by Andreas I adapted the source code of the homepage. The
following link shows a preview of the website:

https://github.com/mepi0011/dtorg/blob/master/content/pages/resources/
resources.md

If the changes are ok for you  I will create the pull request.

Cheers,
Pierre Metzner

Am Sonntag, 17. Februar 2019, 22:22:25 CET schrieb Bruce Williams:
> Hey guys,
> Just wondering what the etiquette/procedure is for getting a link added
> to the resources page of darktable.org?
> The link to my darktable playlist (currently at 28 episodes, and still
> growing) is here:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlYWvzmJQTrRq7JrYdD7k3-8-v-uHnhK_
> I had someone email and ask why my videos weren't linked from there. I
> said I didn't know. 
> Is it possible to add that link, by any chance?
> Thanks in advance!
> Cheers,
> Bruce Williams.
>
> _
> __ darktable developer mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org




___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org


___
darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org



___
darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org

[Bernhard]

it is, but the link was broken into two lines. You have to add the 
"resources.md" in the second line.

Let's see if it works like this:
https://github.com/mepi0011/dtorg/blob/master/content/pages/resources/resources.md

--

regards
Bernhard

https://www.bilddateien.de

Bruce Williams schrieb am 18.02.19 um 20:26:

Pierre,
Thanks, but when I followed that link, I don't know what I was looking 
at, but it certainly wasn't a preview of the darktable site!

Thanks anyway. 
Cheers,
Bruce Williams.

-- Forwarded message -
From: *openhab.doc* mailto:openhab@web.de>>
Date: Tue., 19 Feb. 2019, 03:43
Subject: Re: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org 
To: >



Hey Bruce,

as written by Andreas I adapted the source code of the homepage. The
following link shows a preview of the website:

https://github.com/mepi0011/dtorg/blob/master/content/pages/resources/
resources.md

If the changes are ok for you  I will create the pull request.

Cheers,
Pierre Metzner

Am Sonntag, 17. Februar 2019, 22:22:25 CET schrieb Bruce Williams:
> Hey guys,
> Just wondering what the etiquette/procedure is for getting a link added
> to the resources page of darktable.org ?
> The link to my darktable playlist (currently at 28 episodes, and still
> growing) is here:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlYWvzmJQTrRq7JrYdD7k3-8-v-uHnhK_
> I had someone email and ask why my videos weren't linked from there. I
> said I didn't know. 
> Is it possible to add that link, by any chance?
> Thanks in advance!
> Cheers,
> Bruce Williams.
>
> 
_

> __ darktable developer mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org 






___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to 
darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org 




___ 
darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org



___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

[darktable-dev] Heavy delay in list - broken or feature?

[Bernhard]

Hi,

I noticed some heavy delay in the mail processing of the e-mail list
This is more than half an hour.

Result: sometimes many people respond with the same answer to a single 
same question like

[darktable-user] save edits to the raw file

on Feb. 10 - which has been the most obvious case recently.
Is there something broken in the processing of the mails - or is that 
supposed to be a "feature"? For what reason?


--

regards
Bernhard

https://www.bilddateien.de



___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org

[Bruce Williams]

Awesome, thanks!
Cheers,
Bruce Williams
--
Mobile:  +61 41 250 6349

audio2u.com
brucewilliamsphotography.com
shuttersincpodcast.com
sinelanguagepodcast.com

e-mail  | Twitter  |
LinkedIn  | Facebook
 | Soundcloud
 | Quora

--




On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 9:14 AM Pascal Obry  wrote:

> Hi Bruce,
>
> > Thanks, but when I followed that link, I don't know what I was looking
> at, but it certainly wasn't a preview of the darktable site!
>
> PR pushed for this:
>
> https://github.com/darktable-org/dtorg/pull/43
>
> Should be available soon.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
>   Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)
>
>   The best way to travel is by means of imagination
>
>   http://www.obry.net
>
>   gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B
>
>

___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[thokster]

Am 18.02.19 um 22:48 schrieb Robert Krawitz:

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 22:37:06 +0100, thokster wrote:

Am 18.02.19 um 20:52 schrieb Robert Krawitz:

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:23:40 +0100, thokster wrote:

Did you try the crop tool in perspective correction.
There you can try also the automatic rotation function by Ctrl-clicking.

Perspective correction is irrelevant to me in this case, as is
automatic rotation.  It's the UI mechanics of cropping that are a
problem for me.

Ok, but did you try  the built in crop tool?

The only crop tool I saw in perspective correction was autocrop, which
is not what I want.


Ok, I Just realized that the crop tool only works if you activate the 
auto cropping option: original aspect ratio.


So it doesn't match your workflow at all.

But at least there's a new cropping UI here.

(Activate the option, click on the picture and hold the button and move 
around.)



Maybe it's faster for your workflow.

You can add a preset for e.g. your original aspect ratio and
configure a keyboard shortcut.

The original aspect ratio is irrelevant.  I crop each shot freehand to
get the composition I want; there is no common pattern.  See
https://rlk.smugmug.com/Sports/Basketball/MIT-Clark-Mens-Basketball-Feb-13-2019
for an example of what I do.

Nice shots and really a lot of work.



Then you just have to press your shortcut an you can crop with one click.



___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Retouch → brush placement bug?

[Edgardo Hoszowski]

Confirmed with latest master, but is not the retouch, add a drawn mask (a
circle) on the exposure and the same happens. Probably the crop & rotate,
probably because of the flip.
I don't know the c, so nothing I can do about it, but you can enter an
issue on github.

El lun., 18 feb. 2019 a las 18:59, Timur Irikovich Davletshin (<
timur.davlets...@gmail.com>) escribió:

> See attached.
>
> Timur.
>
> On Mon, 2019-02-18 at 18:39 -0300, Edgardo Hoszowski wrote:
> > Can you share the xmp?
> >
> > El lun., 18 feb. 2019 a las 18:22, Timur Irikovich Davletshin ( > .davlets...@gmail.com>) escribió:
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > I noticed one strange behavior in recent master 2.6 branch build
> > > (via
> > > OBS).
> > >
> > > Module: retouch
> > >
> > > Description: I place and click onto white spot with circle brush
> > > (healing mode activated). Brush was added as expected, white spot
> > > removed but circles are not correctly placed. Screenshots attached:
> > > step #1 shows where I clicked, step #2 shows place, where it was
> > > added.
> > >
> > > Other modules used (except ordinary): invert, tone curve, crop and
> > > rotate.
> > >
> > > Can someone test it and confirm it?
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > >
> > > Timur.
> > > ___
> > > 
> > > darktable developer mailing list
> > > to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscribe@lists.darkt
> > > able.org
> ___
> darktable developer mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org

[Pascal Obry]

Hi Bruce,

> Thanks, but when I followed that link, I don't know what I was looking at, 
> but it certainly wasn't a preview of the darktable site!

PR pushed for this:

https://github.com/darktable-org/dtorg/pull/43

Should be available soon.

Cheers,

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B

___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Camera support in latest stable release

[Dave]

I've just rolled back to v2.6.0 and frustratingly still seem to have this
issue.

To illustrate the problem, I've uploaded an example that shows it
particularly obviously.

This is a screenshot of the preview in lighttable (presumably the
camera-produced JPEG): https://flic.kr/p/24d3Ttv

This is the same photo opened darkroom with only defaults applied (just the
white balance module with "camera" preset as far as I can tell):
https://flic.kr/p/2dqJg4z

The is with the "Contrast/Brightness/Saturation" module turned on, with
default values: https://flic.kr/p/24d3TjT



On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 at 20:08, David Vincent-Jones 
wrote:

> A personal view: my deniose (profiled) works well in general (I often only
> use it at 50% or less strength) but I do know that if I 'push' the
> processing of the image then the default (ISO) setting for denoise will not
> be satisfactory and the ISO setting then needs to be adjusted up
> accordingly.
>
> There is of course loss of detail at higher ISO values but with my camera
> I have very clean (noise free) results through the full ISO range.
> On 2019-02-18 11:36 a.m., Dave wrote:
>
> [My previous reply, repeated below, seems not to have made it to the list,
> apologies for the delay]
>
> Yes, I tried turning on the Denoise (Profiled) module and it detects the
> camera/lens and ISO but it doesn't significantly reduce the noise, if at
> all.
>
> ___
> darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>
> ___
> darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>

___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Retouch → brush placement bug?

[Timur Irikovich Davletshin]

See attached.

Timur.

On Mon, 2019-02-18 at 18:39 -0300, Edgardo Hoszowski wrote:
> Can you share the xmp?
> 
> El lun., 18 feb. 2019 a las 18:22, Timur Irikovich Davletshin ( .davlets...@gmail.com>) escribió:
> > Hi!
> > 
> > I noticed one strange behavior in recent master 2.6 branch build
> > (via
> > OBS).
> > 
> > Module: retouch
> > 
> > Description: I place and click onto white spot with circle brush
> > (healing mode activated). Brush was added as expected, white spot
> > removed but circles are not correctly placed. Screenshots attached:
> > step #1 shows where I clicked, step #2 shows place, where it was
> > added.
> > 
> > Other modules used (except ordinary): invert, tone curve, crop and
> > rotate.
> > 
> > Can someone test it and confirm it?
> > 
> > Thanks in advance,
> > 
> > Timur.
> > ___
> > 
> > darktable developer mailing list
> > to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscribe@lists.darkt
> > able.org
___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

_DSC0002.NEF.xmp
Description: XML document

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Robert Krawitz]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 22:37:06 +0100, thokster wrote:
> Am 18.02.19 um 20:52 schrieb Robert Krawitz:
>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:23:40 +0100, thokster wrote:
>>> Did you try the crop tool in perspective correction.
>>> There you can try also the automatic rotation function by Ctrl-clicking.
>> Perspective correction is irrelevant to me in this case, as is
>> automatic rotation.  It's the UI mechanics of cropping that are a
>> problem for me.
>
> Ok, but did you try  the built in crop tool?

The only crop tool I saw in perspective correction was autocrop, which
is not what I want.

> Maybe it's faster for your workflow.
>
> You can add a preset for e.g. your original aspect ratio and
> configure a keyboard shortcut.

The original aspect ratio is irrelevant.  I crop each shot freehand to
get the composition I want; there is no common pattern.  See
https://rlk.smugmug.com/Sports/Basketball/MIT-Clark-Mens-Basketball-Feb-13-2019
for an example of what I do.

> Then you just have to press your shortcut an you can crop with one click.

-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton
___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Retouch → brush placement bug?

[Edgardo Hoszowski]

Can you share the xmp?

El lun., 18 feb. 2019 a las 18:22, Timur Irikovich Davletshin (<
timur.davlets...@gmail.com>) escribió:

> Hi!
>
> I noticed one strange behavior in recent master 2.6 branch build (via
> OBS).
>
> Module: retouch
>
> Description: I place and click onto white spot with circle brush
> (healing mode activated). Brush was added as expected, white spot
> removed but circles are not correctly placed. Screenshots attached:
> step #1 shows where I clicked, step #2 shows place, where it was added.
>
> Other modules used (except ordinary): invert, tone curve, crop and
> rotate.
>
> Can someone test it and confirm it?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Timur.
> ___
> darktable developer mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[thokster]

Am 18.02.19 um 20:52 schrieb Robert Krawitz:

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:23:40 +0100, thokster wrote:

Did you try the crop tool in perspective correction.
There you can try also the automatic rotation function by Ctrl-clicking.

Perspective correction is irrelevant to me in this case, as is
automatic rotation.  It's the UI mechanics of cropping that are a
problem for me.


Ok, but did you try  the built in crop tool?

Maybe it's faster for your workflow.

You can add a preset for e.g. your original aspect ratio and configure a 
keyboard shortcut.


Then you just have to press your shortcut an you can crop with one click.




Am 18.02.19 um 01:08 schrieb Robert Krawitz:

I find the crop tool to be unwieldly for my common use case, namely
processing a large number of photographs from shooting sports.

I shoot a lot of basketball and (American) football games for my alma
mater.  My workflow is to import the typically ~2000 photos into
KPhotoAlbum, review them and select the ones I want (typically 300 or
so), and create a directory with symlinks to the selected files.
These are essentially all JPEG; RAW would simply consume too much
space and slow the camera (Canon 7DmkII) too much.

The postprocessing I do is limited to cropping and rotating, if my
camera was not level (typically it isn't perfectly level, as I'm
shooting handheld bursts).  I gave up on noise reduction last year;
the 7DmkII is good enough even at ISO 6400, and additional NR really
slows things down.

The difficulty is that to crop the frame (always freehand) requires
the following motions:

1) Position the mouse near one corner of the image (say, top left),
 which may be nowhere near where I want to crop.

2) Click and move the top and left edges (via the top left corner) to
 the desired spot.

3) Move the mouse to the bottom right of the image, which again might
 not be near where I want to crop.

4) Click and move the bottom and right edges to the desired spot.

With RawTherapee I simply place the mouse at the desired top left
spot, click and drag it to the bottom right, and I'm done.  The extra
motions with Darktable, especially since they have to start far from
what may be my point of interest, are awkward and cost maybe 5 seconds
per image.  With 300 images, that's an extra 25 minutes; this past
Wednesday I shot two games that totaled 700 images, so the extra time
would have been an hour.

I'd prefer to use Darktable for this purpose, since it's otherwise a
lot faster.  RawTherapee takes maybe 3 seconds or so to export an
image; Darktable is more like 1 second, not to mention that the rotate
function is easier in Darktable (right mouse drag).  But the current
behavior of the cropping tool is simply too awkward (I tried it for
one set and it really did take a lot more time).

I tried looking at the code (in src/iop/clipping.c), but it wasn't
obvious to me what would need to change to do this.  I understand that
dragging inside the frame is used to move the crop box, but that's
rarely something I need to do.  I have at least two more games this
season to shoot, and if we make it to the later rounds of the
tournament, I'm going to have a lot more photos (less selective about
what I keep).

Perhaps what I really need is a very minimalist program that lets me
set the crop and rotate and do nothing else, but I haven't found such
(on Linux).

Thoughts, anyone?



___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Robert Krawitz]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 21:50:08 +0100, Sturm Flut wrote:
> Dear Robert,
>
> Am 18.02.19 um 17:54 schrieb Robert Krawitz:
>
>>> the comment holds some validity in this particular case since darktable
>>> can't losslessly crop a JPEG file, but other tools can. If the original
>>> poster ended up just cropping (and not rotating) most files, something
>>> like cropgui[1] would actually yield better image quality.
>> 
>> Well, that's interesting to know.  Unfortunately, cropgui isn't quite
>> right either; it doesn't do rotation.
>
> Yeah, lossless rotation is only possible in 90 degree steps with
> JPEGs. jpegtran (the tool working in the background of cropgui)
> exploits a special property of the JPEG compression scheme. This
> property makes it possible to discard parts of the image data
> without having to re-encode the rest. There are certain limitations
> to this trick (you can't cut at every pixel coordinate, but only at
> the bounds of slightly larger blocks).
>
> But if all you have is a JPEG, you only want to cut it, and image
> quality is a concern, then jpegtran/cropgui would be a better option
> than most generic image editing tools.

Absolute image quality isn't my concern; I'm shooting basketball
mostly at ISO 6400 (I do export them at a high quality setting).  And
I do rotate some photos if the camera's rolled badly, which is not
uncommon.

And cropgui has exactly the same UI problem as Darktable -- you have
to crop from the edges rather than just drawing the bounding box in
one motion.  It's also slow, since it exports the photos on the fly,
and doesn't leave a sidecar for me to record what crop I did.

If I can reverse engineer RawTherapee's settings, I'll probably do the
actual conversions via a shell/perl script using convert to do the fun
stuff if it's fast enough.
-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton
___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Sturm Flut]

Dear Robert,

Am 18.02.19 um 17:54 schrieb Robert Krawitz:


the comment holds some validity in this particular case since darktable
can't losslessly crop a JPEG file, but other tools can. If the original
poster ended up just cropping (and not rotating) most files, something
like cropgui[1] would actually yield better image quality.


Well, that's interesting to know.  Unfortunately, cropgui isn't quite
right either; it doesn't do rotation.



Yeah, lossless rotation is only possible in 90 degree steps with JPEGs. 
jpegtran (the tool working in the background of cropgui) exploits a 
special property of the JPEG compression scheme. This property makes it 
possible to discard parts of the image data without having to re-encode 
the rest. There are certain limitations to this trick (you can't cut at 
every pixel coordinate, but only at the bounds of slightly larger blocks).


But if all you have is a JPEG, you only want to cut it, and image 
quality is a concern, then jpegtran/cropgui would be a better option 
than most generic image editing tools.


cheers,
Simon

___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Robert Krawitz]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 10:34:11 -0800, David Vincent-Jones wrote:
> I am not a developer but do feel that using tools appropriate for
> the work is often more productive than trying to adapt and
> complicate.

Understood, but I haven't found useful tools other than Darktable and
RawTherapee.  CropGUI actually has the same problem, in addition to
some others (no rotation, slow, and portrait format images go off the
screen even on my 4K display).

Another thing I prefer about both Darktable and RawTherapee is that
they create sidecar files, so I can keep a record of exactly what I
did.

> On 2019-02-18 5:49 a.m., Moritz Mœller wrote:
>> That's a typical developer answer. Amusing and sad at the same time.

-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton
___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Robert Krawitz]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:23:40 +0100, thokster wrote:
> Did you try the crop tool in perspective correction.
> There you can try also the automatic rotation function by Ctrl-clicking.

Perspective correction is irrelevant to me in this case, as is
automatic rotation.  It's the UI mechanics of cropping that are a
problem for me.

> Am 18.02.19 um 01:08 schrieb Robert Krawitz:
>> I find the crop tool to be unwieldly for my common use case, namely
>> processing a large number of photographs from shooting sports.
>>
>> I shoot a lot of basketball and (American) football games for my alma
>> mater.  My workflow is to import the typically ~2000 photos into
>> KPhotoAlbum, review them and select the ones I want (typically 300 or
>> so), and create a directory with symlinks to the selected files.
>> These are essentially all JPEG; RAW would simply consume too much
>> space and slow the camera (Canon 7DmkII) too much.
>>
>> The postprocessing I do is limited to cropping and rotating, if my
>> camera was not level (typically it isn't perfectly level, as I'm
>> shooting handheld bursts).  I gave up on noise reduction last year;
>> the 7DmkII is good enough even at ISO 6400, and additional NR really
>> slows things down.
>>
>> The difficulty is that to crop the frame (always freehand) requires
>> the following motions:
>>
>> 1) Position the mouse near one corner of the image (say, top left),
>> which may be nowhere near where I want to crop.
>>
>> 2) Click and move the top and left edges (via the top left corner) to
>> the desired spot.
>>
>> 3) Move the mouse to the bottom right of the image, which again might
>> not be near where I want to crop.
>>
>> 4) Click and move the bottom and right edges to the desired spot.
>>
>> With RawTherapee I simply place the mouse at the desired top left
>> spot, click and drag it to the bottom right, and I'm done.  The extra
>> motions with Darktable, especially since they have to start far from
>> what may be my point of interest, are awkward and cost maybe 5 seconds
>> per image.  With 300 images, that's an extra 25 minutes; this past
>> Wednesday I shot two games that totaled 700 images, so the extra time
>> would have been an hour.
>>
>> I'd prefer to use Darktable for this purpose, since it's otherwise a
>> lot faster.  RawTherapee takes maybe 3 seconds or so to export an
>> image; Darktable is more like 1 second, not to mention that the rotate
>> function is easier in Darktable (right mouse drag).  But the current
>> behavior of the cropping tool is simply too awkward (I tried it for
>> one set and it really did take a lot more time).
>>
>> I tried looking at the code (in src/iop/clipping.c), but it wasn't
>> obvious to me what would need to change to do this.  I understand that
>> dragging inside the frame is used to move the crop box, but that's
>> rarely something I need to do.  I have at least two more games this
>> season to shoot, and if we make it to the later rounds of the
>> tournament, I'm going to have a lot more photos (less selective about
>> what I keep).
>>
>> Perhaps what I really need is a very minimalist program that lets me
>> set the crop and rotate and do nothing else, but I haven't found such
>> (on Linux).
>>
>> Thoughts, anyone?

-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton
___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Camera support in latest stable release

[David Vincent-Jones]

A personal view: my deniose (profiled) works well in general (I often 
only use it at 50% or less strength) but I do know that if I 'push' the 
processing of the image then the default (ISO) setting for denoise will 
not be satisfactory and the ISO setting then needs to be adjusted up 
accordingly.


There is of course loss of detail at higher ISO values but with my 
camera I have very clean (noise free) results through the full ISO range.


On 2019-02-18 11:36 a.m., Dave wrote:
[My previous reply, repeated below, seems not to have made it to the 
list, apologies for the delay]


Yes, I tried turning on the Denoise (Profiled) module and it detects 
the camera/lens and ISO but it doesn't significantly reduce the noise, 
if at all.


___ 
darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org


___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Camera support in latest stable release

[Patrick Shanahan]

* Dave  [02-18-19 14:38]:
> [My previous reply, repeated below, seems not to have made it to the list,
> apologies for the delay]
> 
> Yes, I tried turning on the Denoise (Profiled) module and it detects the
> camera/lens and ISO but it doesn't significantly reduce the noise, if at
> all.

there is a slider to increase/decrease the *strength*

-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Registered Linux User #207535@ http://linuxcounter.net
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode
___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Fwd: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org

[Bruce Williams]

Pierre,
Thanks, but when I followed that link, I don't know what I was looking at,
but it certainly wasn't a preview of the darktable site!
Thanks anyway. 
Cheers,
Bruce Williams.

-- Forwarded message -
From: openhab.doc 
Date: Tue., 19 Feb. 2019, 03:43
Subject: Re: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org
To: 


Hey Bruce,

as written by Andreas I adapted the source code of the homepage. The
following link shows a preview of the website:

https://github.com/mepi0011/dtorg/blob/master/content/pages/resources/
resources.md

If the changes are ok for you  I will create the pull request.

Cheers,
Pierre Metzner

Am Sonntag, 17. Februar 2019, 22:22:25 CET schrieb Bruce Williams:
> Hey guys,
> Just wondering what the etiquette/procedure is for getting a link added
> to the resources page of darktable.org?
> The link to my darktable playlist (currently at 28 episodes, and still
> growing) is here:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlYWvzmJQTrRq7JrYdD7k3-8-v-uHnhK_
> I had someone email and ask why my videos weren't linked from there. I
> said I didn't know. 
> Is it possible to add that link, by any chance?
> Thanks in advance!
> Cheers,
> Bruce Williams.
>
> _
> __ darktable developer mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org




___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[David Vincent-Jones]

I am not a developer but do feel that using tools appropriate for the 
work is often more productive than trying to adapt and complicate.


On 2019-02-18 5:49 a.m., Moritz Mœller wrote:

That's a typical developer answer. Amusing and sad at the same time.


___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Robert Krawitz]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 17:24:05 +0100, sturmflut wrote:
> Hi,
>
> the comment holds some validity in this particular case since darktable
> can't losslessly crop a JPEG file, but other tools can. If the original
> poster ended up just cropping (and not rotating) most files, something
> like cropgui[1] would actually yield better image quality.

Well, that's interesting to know.  Unfortunately, cropgui isn't quite
right either; it doesn't do rotation.

I'm looking at a command line solution whereby I use RawTherapee to do
the crop and rotate, but don't actually export it, and just extract
the rotation and crop data from the sidecar and apply it.  Once I get
the rotation math correct, at any rate.

> (Obviously this is an extreme edge case and I fully support the solution
> with the modifier key proposed in the other thread. I just added this
> for future reference.)
>
> cheers,
> Simon
>
>
>
> [1] https://github.com/jepler/cropgui
>
>
> Am 18.02.19 um 14:49 schrieb Moritz Mœller:
>> On February 17, 2019 23:01:58 David Vincent-Jones 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Although darktable handles JPG images very well, I think that its
>>> primary market was targeted towards users who shoot RAW [...]
>>>
>> That's a typical developer answer. Amusing and sad at the same time.
>> 
>> The user brings up an UX issue that is very real. For the record: I
>> think the crop tool in DT could be improved a lot too.
>> 
>> In return they get lectured about the input data the developer presumes
>> DT should be fed with, a topic completely and utterly unrelated to the
>> issue raised.
>> 
>> Pardon my use of weasel words.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> .mm

-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton
___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Links on darktable.org

[openhab.doc]

Hey Bruce,

as written by Andreas I adapted the source code of the homepage. The 
following link shows a preview of the website:

https://github.com/mepi0011/dtorg/blob/master/content/pages/resources/
resources.md

If the changes are ok for you  I will create the pull request.

Cheers,
Pierre Metzner

Am Sonntag, 17. Februar 2019, 22:22:25 CET schrieb Bruce Williams:
> Hey guys,
> Just wondering what the etiquette/procedure is for getting a link added
> to the resources page of darktable.org?
> The link to my darktable playlist (currently at 28 episodes, and still
> growing) is here:
> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlYWvzmJQTrRq7JrYdD7k3-8-v-uHnhK_
> I had someone email and ask why my videos weren't linked from there. I
> said I didn't know. 
> Is it possible to add that link, by any chance?
> Thanks in advance!
> Cheers,
> Bruce Williams.
> 
> _
> __ darktable developer mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org




___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[sturmflut]

Hi,

the comment holds some validity in this particular case since darktable
can't losslessly crop a JPEG file, but other tools can. If the original
poster ended up just cropping (and not rotating) most files, something
like cropgui[1] would actually yield better image quality.

(Obviously this is an extreme edge case and I fully support the solution
with the modifier key proposed in the other thread. I just added this
for future reference.)

cheers,
Simon



[1] https://github.com/jepler/cropgui


Am 18.02.19 um 14:49 schrieb Moritz Mœller:
> On February 17, 2019 23:01:58 David Vincent-Jones 
> wrote:
>>
>> Although darktable handles JPG images very well, I think that its
>> primary market was targeted towards users who shoot RAW [...]
>>
> That's a typical developer answer. Amusing and sad at the same time.
> 
> The user brings up an UX issue that is very real. For the record: I
> think the crop tool in DT could be improved a lot too.
> 
> In return they get lectured about the input data the developer presumes
> DT should be fed with, a topic completely and utterly unrelated to the
> issue raised.
> 
> Pardon my use of weasel words.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> .mm
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[thokster]

Did you try the crop tool in perspective correction.
There you can try also the automatic rotation function by Ctrl-clicking.

Am 18.02.19 um 01:08 schrieb Robert Krawitz:

I find the crop tool to be unwieldly for my common use case, namely
processing a large number of photographs from shooting sports.

I shoot a lot of basketball and (American) football games for my alma
mater.  My workflow is to import the typically ~2000 photos into
KPhotoAlbum, review them and select the ones I want (typically 300 or
so), and create a directory with symlinks to the selected files.
These are essentially all JPEG; RAW would simply consume too much
space and slow the camera (Canon 7DmkII) too much.

The postprocessing I do is limited to cropping and rotating, if my
camera was not level (typically it isn't perfectly level, as I'm
shooting handheld bursts).  I gave up on noise reduction last year;
the 7DmkII is good enough even at ISO 6400, and additional NR really
slows things down.

The difficulty is that to crop the frame (always freehand) requires
the following motions:

1) Position the mouse near one corner of the image (say, top left),
which may be nowhere near where I want to crop.

2) Click and move the top and left edges (via the top left corner) to
the desired spot.

3) Move the mouse to the bottom right of the image, which again might
not be near where I want to crop.

4) Click and move the bottom and right edges to the desired spot.

With RawTherapee I simply place the mouse at the desired top left
spot, click and drag it to the bottom right, and I'm done.  The extra
motions with Darktable, especially since they have to start far from
what may be my point of interest, are awkward and cost maybe 5 seconds
per image.  With 300 images, that's an extra 25 minutes; this past
Wednesday I shot two games that totaled 700 images, so the extra time
would have been an hour.

I'd prefer to use Darktable for this purpose, since it's otherwise a
lot faster.  RawTherapee takes maybe 3 seconds or so to export an
image; Darktable is more like 1 second, not to mention that the rotate
function is easier in Darktable (right mouse drag).  But the current
behavior of the cropping tool is simply too awkward (I tried it for
one set and it really did take a lot more time).

I tried looking at the code (in src/iop/clipping.c), but it wasn't
obvious to me what would need to change to do this.  I understand that
dragging inside the frame is used to move the crop box, but that's
rarely something I need to do.  I have at least two more games this
season to shoot, and if we make it to the later rounds of the
tournament, I'm going to have a lot more photos (less selective about
what I keep).

Perhaps what I really need is a very minimalist program that lets me
set the crop and rotate and do nothing else, but I haven't found such
(on Linux).

Thoughts, anyone?



___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Moritz Mœller]

+1

.mm

On February 18, 2019 03:01:22 Bruce Williams  wrote:
Why not leave the current situation as it is, but add a CTRL key modifier 
to allow the alternate behaviour?

Cheers,
Bruce Williams
--
Mobile:  +61 41 250 6349

audio2u.com
brucewilliamsphotography.com
shuttersincpodcast.com
sinelanguagepodcast.com

e-mail | Twitter | LinkedIn | Facebook | Soundcloud | Quora
--




-- Forwarded message -
From: Jason Polak 
Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case
To: 


For some people that might be true, but the current system also has an
advantage: if the shot is already pretty good but just needs a slight
cropping, then only a little dragging in one corner may be required,
without much dragging. Then the click-in-square method for moving the
crop is actually useful. I would not want to have to drag a rectangle
for every little crop adjustment.

On 17/2/19 10:54 pm, August Schwerdfeger wrote:

How is this a JPEG vs. RAW issue? I have done a great deal of cropping
in Darktable (on both JPEGs and RAWs) and I think that adding the
proposed single-drag interaction would speed up cropping a great deal
over the current process, no matter the format of the image being edited.

--
August Schwerdfeger
aug...@schwerdfeger.name


On 2/17/19 8:01 PM, David Vincent-Jones wrote:


Although darktable handles JPG images very well, I think that its
primary market was targeted towards users who shoot RAW with an
expectation of doing more complex processing on individual frames.
Maybe darktable is simply the wrong software for your high production
needs.

On 2019-02-17 4:08 p.m., Robert Krawitz wrote:

I find the crop tool to be unwieldly for my common use case, namely
processing a large number of photographs from shooting sports.

I shoot a lot of basketball and (American) football games for my alma
mater.  My workflow is to import the typically ~2000 photos into
KPhotoAlbum, review them and select the ones I want (typically 300 or
so), and create a directory with symlinks to the selected files.
These are essentially all JPEG; RAW would simply consume too much
space and slow the camera (Canon 7DmkII) too much.

The postprocessing I do is limited to cropping and rotating, if my
camera was not level (typically it isn't perfectly level, as I'm
shooting handheld bursts).  I gave up on noise reduction last year;
the 7DmkII is good enough even at ISO 6400, and additional NR really
slows things down.

The difficulty is that to crop the frame (always freehand) requires
the following motions:

1) Position the mouse near one corner of the image (say, top left),
   which may be nowhere near where I want to crop.

2) Click and move the top and left edges (via the top left corner) to
   the desired spot.

3) Move the mouse to the bottom right of the image, which again might
   not be near where I want to crop.

4) Click and move the bottom and right edges to the desired spot.

With RawTherapee I simply place the mouse at the desired top left
spot, click and drag it to the bottom right, and I'm done.  The extra
motions with Darktable, especially since they have to start far from
what may be my point of interest, are awkward and cost maybe 5 seconds
per image.  With 300 images, that's an extra 25 minutes; this past
Wednesday I shot two games that totaled 700 images, so the extra time
would have been an hour.

I'd prefer to use Darktable for this purpose, since it's otherwise a
lot faster.  RawTherapee takes maybe 3 seconds or so to export an
image; Darktable is more like 1 second, not to mention that the rotate
function is easier in Darktable (right mouse drag).  But the current
behavior of the cropping tool is simply too awkward (I tried it for
one set and it really did take a lot more time).

I tried looking at the code (in src/iop/clipping.c), but it wasn't
obvious to me what would need to change to do this.  I understand that
dragging inside the frame is used to move the crop box, but that's
rarely something I need to do.  I have at least two more games this
season to shoot, and if we make it to the later rounds of the
tournament, I'm going to have a lot more photos (less selective about
what I keep).

Perhaps what I really need is a very minimalist program that lets me
set the crop and rotate and do nothing else, but I haven't found such
(on Linux).

Thoughts, anyone?


___
darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org


___
darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to 

Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Moritz Mœller]

On February 17, 2019 23:01:58 David Vincent-Jones  wrote:
Although darktable handles JPG images very well, I think that its primary 
market was targeted towards users who shoot RAW [...]

That's a typical developer answer. Amusing and sad at the same time.


The user brings up an UX issue that is very real. For the record: I think 
the crop tool in DT could be improved a lot too.



In return they get lectured about the input data the developer presumes DT 
should be fed with, a topic completely and utterly unrelated to the issue 
raised.



Pardon my use of weasel words.


Cheers,


.mm


___
darktable developer mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org

Re: Fwd: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case

[Robert Krawitz]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 16:48:55 +1100, Bruce Williams wrote:
> Why not leave the current situation as it is, but add a CTRL key modifier
> to allow the alternate behaviour?

That would work.  I'd prefer an option to flip the behavior, but I
think I could live with this.

> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Jason Polak 
> Date: Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 4:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [darktable-dev] Crop tool is awkward for my use case
> To: 
>
>
> For some people that might be true, but the current system also has an
> advantage: if the shot is already pretty good but just needs a slight
> cropping, then only a little dragging in one corner may be required,
> without much dragging. Then the click-in-square method for moving the
> crop is actually useful. I would not want to have to drag a rectangle
> for every little crop adjustment.
>
> On 17/2/19 10:54 pm, August Schwerdfeger wrote:
>> How is this a JPEG vs. RAW issue? I have done a great deal of cropping
>> in Darktable (on both JPEGs and RAWs) and I think that adding the
>> proposed single-drag interaction would speed up cropping a great deal
>> over the current process, no matter the format of the image being edited.
>>
>> --
>> August Schwerdfeger
>> aug...@schwerdfeger.name
>>
>>
>> On 2/17/19 8:01 PM, David Vincent-Jones wrote:
>>>
>>> Although darktable handles JPG images very well, I think that its
>>> primary market was targeted towards users who shoot RAW with an
>>> expectation of doing more complex processing on individual frames.
>>> Maybe darktable is simply the wrong software for your high production
>>> needs.
>>>
>>> On 2019-02-17 4:08 p.m., Robert Krawitz wrote:
 I find the crop tool to be unwieldly for my common use case, namely
 processing a large number of photographs from shooting sports.

 I shoot a lot of basketball and (American) football games for my alma
 mater.  My workflow is to import the typically ~2000 photos into
 KPhotoAlbum, review them and select the ones I want (typically 300 or
 so), and create a directory with symlinks to the selected files.
 These are essentially all JPEG; RAW would simply consume too much
 space and slow the camera (Canon 7DmkII) too much.

 The postprocessing I do is limited to cropping and rotating, if my
 camera was not level (typically it isn't perfectly level, as I'm
 shooting handheld bursts).  I gave up on noise reduction last year;
 the 7DmkII is good enough even at ISO 6400, and additional NR really
 slows things down.

 The difficulty is that to crop the frame (always freehand) requires
 the following motions:

 1) Position the mouse near one corner of the image (say, top left),
which may be nowhere near where I want to crop.

 2) Click and move the top and left edges (via the top left corner) to
the desired spot.

 3) Move the mouse to the bottom right of the image, which again might
not be near where I want to crop.

 4) Click and move the bottom and right edges to the desired spot.

 With RawTherapee I simply place the mouse at the desired top left
 spot, click and drag it to the bottom right, and I'm done.  The extra
 motions with Darktable, especially since they have to start far from
 what may be my point of interest, are awkward and cost maybe 5 seconds
 per image.  With 300 images, that's an extra 25 minutes; this past
 Wednesday I shot two games that totaled 700 images, so the extra time
 would have been an hour.

 I'd prefer to use Darktable for this purpose, since it's otherwise a
 lot faster.  RawTherapee takes maybe 3 seconds or so to export an
 image; Darktable is more like 1 second, not to mention that the rotate
 function is easier in Darktable (right mouse drag).  But the current
 behavior of the cropping tool is simply too awkward (I tried it for
 one set and it really did take a lot more time).

 I tried looking at the code (in src/iop/clipping.c), but it wasn't
 obvious to me what would need to change to do this.  I understand that
 dragging inside the frame is used to move the crop box, but that's
 rarely something I need to do.  I have at least two more games this
 season to shoot, and if we make it to the later rounds of the
 tournament, I'm going to have a lot more photos (less selective about
 what I keep).

 Perhaps what I really need is a very minimalist program that lets me
 set the crop and rotate and do nothing else, but I haven't found such
 (on Linux).

 Thoughts, anyone?
-- 
Robert Krawitz 

***  MIT Engineers   A Proud Tradition   http://mitathletics.com  ***
Member of the League for Programming Freedom  --  http://ProgFree.org
Project lead for Gutenprint   --http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net

"Linux doesn't dictate how I work, I dictate how Linux works."
--Eric Crampton