Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
Aurélien, you seem to have put your finger on the issues. Very well observed, it would be good to think that users feedback was considered. Sent from Workspace ONE Boxer On 20 Apr 2019 11:41, Aurélien Pierre wrote: Hi, I second that. I tend to avoid every distraction while working and prefer non-real time communication channels, especially when I'm not on a GMT±1 timezone (most dt's devs are EU-based, so IRC disadvantages Americas, Asia, Australia, NZ, etc.). Also, some skilled devs are not fluent enough in English to sustain a real-time conversion in it. I also think users should get more involved in the decision loop. darktable project has a long history of disregarding user's requests and finding excuses to do so (just read Redmine issues). The thing is no current dev is a full-time retoucher or photographer, and these people can teach you good stuff about color, state-of-the-art image processing, and sometimes even how to use your own software. Their feedback should be valued, not ignored. None of us knows better than a full-time photographer what an efficient high-end photographer needs to produce good work. The decisions taken should not be solely justified by technical IT reasons. darktable will be good enough the day it will be used by fashion photographers. Now, it's only hobbyists and low-budget pros. For this reason, I think Github is a nice crossroad between devs, code, users, bugs, PRs, and wiki. I don't find it more overwhelming than Redmine issues. I quite like the "social coding" way of Github too (giving feedback directly on the code). Gitlab is becoming quite good too for a self-hosted equivalent (without Microsoft involved). The second best would be this mailing list. Regards, Aurélien. Le 17/04/2019 à 09:19, Heiko Bauke a écrit : Hi, Am 16.04.19 um 19:51 schrieb rawfiner: Currently, the place where big changes should be discussed is IRC (according to houz, as I have not seen this information anywhere, which is problematic as new contributors may make big changes, so they have at least to be able to know where is the place to discuss things). I think IRC is not convenient at all. I would like to discuss why I think making these discussion on IRC is bad, and what alternatives we have. rawfiner draws our attention to some very important issue here. Discussing darktable on very different channels is inefficient. We should consolidate discussions about darktable development to a single channel. I completely agree with the pros and cons mentioned by rafiner. I do not use IRC for the reasons mentioned by rawfiner. I do use, however, github, as it is the most convenient platform for me. I would invest even more time to participate in discussions on github if this would be the commonly accepted platform for discussions on darktable development. Nevertheless, I am also aware of the potential drawbacks of relaying too heavily on the github platform. Possibly, we should redirect people to https://redmine.darktable.org/ Heiko ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.or
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
Hi, I second that. I tend to avoid every distraction while working and prefer non-real time communication channels, especially when I'm not on a GMT±1 timezone (most dt's devs are EU-based, so IRC disadvantages Americas, Asia, Australia, NZ, etc.). Also, some skilled devs are not fluent enough in English to sustain a real-time conversion in it. I also think users should get more involved in the decision loop. darktable project has a long history of disregarding user's requests and finding excuses to do so (just read Redmine issues). The thing is no current dev is a full-time retoucher or photographer, and these people can teach you good stuff about color, state-of-the-art image processing, and sometimes even how to use your own software. Their feedback should be valued, not ignored. None of us knows better than a full-time photographer what an efficient high-end photographer needs to produce good work. The decisions taken should not be solely justified by technical IT reasons. darktable will be good enough the day it will be used by fashion photographers. Now, it's only hobbyists and low-budget pros. For this reason, I think Github is a nice crossroad between devs, code, users, bugs, PRs, and wiki. I don't find it more overwhelming than Redmine issues. I quite like the "social coding" way of Github too (giving feedback directly on the code). Gitlab is becoming quite good too for a self-hosted equivalent (without Microsoft involved). The second best would be this mailing list. Regards, Aurélien. Le 17/04/2019 à 09:19, Heiko Bauke a écrit : > Hi, > > Am 16.04.19 um 19:51 schrieb rawfiner: >> Currently, the place where big changes should be discussed is IRC >> (according to houz, as I have not seen this information anywhere, >> which is problematic as new contributors may make big changes, so >> they have at least to be able to know where is the place to discuss >> things). >> I think IRC is not convenient at all. >> >> I would like to discuss why I think making these discussion on IRC is >> bad, and what alternatives we have. > > rawfiner draws our attention to some very important issue here. > Discussing darktable on very different channels is inefficient. We > should consolidate discussions about darktable development to a single > channel. > > I completely agree with the pros and cons mentioned by rafiner. I do > not use IRC for the reasons mentioned by rawfiner. I do use, however, > github, as it is the most convenient platform for me. I would invest > even more time to participate in discussions on github if this would > be the commonly accepted platform for discussions on darktable > development. > > Nevertheless, I am also aware of the potential drawbacks of relaying > too heavily on the github platform. Possibly, we should redirect > people to https://redmine.darktable.org/ > > > Heiko > ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
I think we mix up 2 (or 3) different things in this topic. Let's say a contributor wants to implement some feature: First some discussion should probably happen, for example other developers can help with pointers on how said feature can and should be integrated into DT core. I don't see any need for this to be stored anywhere or accessed by everyone else, because a lot of it will be discarded ideas and just thoughts "out loud". Having to formulate them carefully (as it's expected with mailing lists or forums) will just impede communications at this stage. Historically IRC was used and I think it's still the best tool, the only problem here is timezone differences between developers. Another issue is documenting the design of said feature. Right now such documentation is basically absent in DT, but I think it would be very useful. Something like wiki can be used for this purpose and DT actually already had it for a long time: https://redmine.darktable.org/projects/darktable/wiki Of course nobody wants to write documentation, and my suggestions that it should be done were already rejected for a couple of big features recently merged into git master. I don't really see this changing just because we choose some platform that currently is in fashion. Somewhat separate issue are discussions about release planning and so on. These I think concern only a limited number of people (specifically developers with commit rights and package maintainers) and also historically happened in IRC. Probably mailing list can be used also for these, depending on the topic (if there's a lot to discuss it's more efficient to have real-time communication though). But all this of course is just idealisation, real life makes corrections and compromises have to be taken. So I would suggest not to overthink it with "pros" and "cons" of various technologies and just make sure that necessary people are included in the loop of decision making whatever way is actually possible. On Wed, 17 Apr 2019 13:26:08 -0400 William Ferguson wrote: > We are facing the same issue, where to discuss things, with the lua-scripts > repository. We've thought about using github issues and discuss.pixls.us, > but we still haven't come up with a solution. I think I'm just going to > try the github issues and see how it goes. > > Bill > > On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 1:22 PM Pascal Obry wrote: > > > Le mercredi 17 avril 2019 à 14:12 -0300, Moritz Moeller a écrit : > > > But I agree with parent that it is not the right tool to discuss big > > > changes. > > > IRC has no history. IRC has no message threads. > > > That's why I mentioned NNTP. > > > > My first best is GitHub Issues. > > > > You create an enhancement request there. It is discussed, we can add > > some design notes... > > > > Then a PR is created for this and the PR can (should) reference the > > issue number for tracking purpose. Then you'll end up with a commit > > with a reference to the design. > > > > We can't do best :) > > > > -- > > Pascal Obry / Magny Les Hameaux (78) > > > > The best way to travel is by means of imagination > > > > http://www.obry.net > > > > gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B > > > > ___ > > darktable developer mailing list > > to unsubscribe send a mail to > > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > > > > > ___ > darktable developer mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
We are facing the same issue, where to discuss things, with the lua-scripts repository. We've thought about using github issues and discuss.pixls.us, but we still haven't come up with a solution. I think I'm just going to try the github issues and see how it goes. Bill On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 1:22 PM Pascal Obry wrote: > Le mercredi 17 avril 2019 à 14:12 -0300, Moritz Moeller a écrit : > > But I agree with parent that it is not the right tool to discuss big > > changes. > > IRC has no history. IRC has no message threads. > > That's why I mentioned NNTP. > > My first best is GitHub Issues. > > You create an enhancement request there. It is discussed, we can add > some design notes... > > Then a PR is created for this and the PR can (should) reference the > issue number for tracking purpose. Then you'll end up with a commit > with a reference to the design. > > We can't do best :) > > -- > Pascal Obry / Magny Les Hameaux (78) > > The best way to travel is by means of imagination > > http://www.obry.net > > gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B > > ___ > darktable developer mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to > darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > > ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
Le mercredi 17 avril 2019 à 14:12 -0300, Moritz Moeller a écrit : > But I agree with parent that it is not the right tool to discuss big > changes. > IRC has no history. IRC has no message threads. > That's why I mentioned NNTP. My first best is GitHub Issues. You create an enhancement request there. It is discussed, we can add some design notes... Then a PR is created for this and the PR can (should) reference the issue number for tracking purpose. Then you'll end up with a commit with a reference to the design. We can't do best :) -- Pascal Obry / Magny Les Hameaux (78) The best way to travel is by means of imagination http://www.obry.net gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
On 17.4.19 09:16, johannes hanika wrote: i second the 'getting old' bit. and i really like IRC. Maybe you misunderstood my message's intend? Yes, I too prefer IRC over any 'modern' chat client. But I agree with parent that it is not the right tool to discuss big changes. IRC has no history. IRC has no message threads. That's why I mentioned NNTP. E-mail is the 2nd best alternative. IRC isn't one at all. IMHO. Beers, .mm ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
Le mercredi 17 avril 2019 à 08:47 -0400, Mark Feit a écrit : > PRs shouldn't exist until there's code to be pulled. Sometimes there's > discussion about a project before anyone writes a single line. I just don't agree. Many nice dt features won't have been created otherwise. Many people like dt, hack it to see if they can do something and try to create something for their need first. Then at some point the PR is created. But it is not because it is created that it will be merged. I have recently closed many PR. Remember dt coding must be fun. Too many rules and you'll just kill the project. Actually that's how I see things happening and that's how I'll drive the project as long as I have enough energy. And what I said above do not mean that I don't want features discussed before hand. Some contributor will probably want to do that either because they are really not sure on how to do things at the design level or because the new feature is complex to implement. -- Pascal Obry / Magny Les Hameaux (78) The best way to travel is by means of imagination http://www.obry.net gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
On 4/16/19 1:51 PM, rawfiner wrote: Using github by commenting directly on PRs I'm in favor of this with some modifications with the mailing list as a second choice. IRC is too ephemeral without logging and conversations can go on for days and end up intermixed with other topics, making it hard to pick through. PRs shouldn't exist until there's code to be pulled. Sometimes there's discussion about a project before anyone writes a single line. These projects should be started as issues that we can organize using tags. pros: - we can comment directly near the code, and we can comment code details - people can see the message when they want, and reply when they want, wherever they are on the planet - we can have conversations organised by topics (PRs) In addition to all of that, the commits can refer to the issues (e.g., "Overhaul of malloc() and free() #1234") so anyone looking at the code has a near-direct path to the entire history of how it got there. If a discussion takes place elsewhere (IRC or the mailing list), the conversation should be copied out and added to the issue or, if it persists, add a link to it. cons: - devs will have to check new PRs regularly to give their opinion, and a big-change PR may "hide" in between small ones. However, we could easily have a tag "big-change" to request devs to pay attention to particular PRs, or use the PRs names to indicate such big changes This isn't any different than looking at the issues that get written for bugs, which makes a good case for using issues (or Redmine or anything similar). - big changes should be discussed before making them. Yet, I think this drawback can be compensated by making PRs really early, which is already done by several of us (see PRs with [WIP] in the title) Work-in-progress PRs lower the signal-to-noise ratio for those considering PRs. If someone is working on a project, they should be doing it in their own GitHub space and requesting a pull when it's ready to be integrated. As for the concerns about GitHub going away: Everything the project has on GitHub can be backed up. I do this twice a day for my own work and anything I depend on (darktable included): https://github.com/markfeit/github-backup. Another way to have this discussion would be to come up with an agreeable workflow and then find the tools that fit it. --Mark ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
On 4/16/19 11:46 PM, Moritz Moeller wrote: > There is this thing called 'a news server' which has all of below > but has infinite history (for free) and you can actually see who > replied to whom before even opening/deciding to read a message. > > That feature alone makes a news server with a decent client (e.g. > Thunderbird) a thousand times superior to something like e.g. Slack. > > And this stuff has been available since the 70's. For free. Maybe I'm > just getting old. Just my two c. +2¢ for NNTP. Good old clean tech. -- Šarūnas Burdulis math.dartmouth.edu/~sarunas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
i second the 'getting old' bit. and i really like IRC. i could never get the hang of these fancy websites that force you to use a mouse. for slack at least there used to be an IRC bridge. it seems mattermost may be an alternative that does support IRC, for those of us who insist on animated gifs for team comm. i would not like to give away our main/official communication channel to an untrusted third party that may shut it down without notice any time. fwiw our mailing list is archived: https://www.mail-archive.com/darktable-dev@lists.darktable.org/ cheers, jo On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 3:47 PM Moritz Moeller wrote: > > There is this thing called 'a news server' which has all of below but > has infinite history (for free) and you can actually see who replied to > whom before even opening/deciding to read a message. > > That feature alone makes a news server with a decent client (e.g. > Thunderbird) a thousand times superior to something like e.g. Slack. > > And this stuff has been available since the 70's. For free. > Maybe I'm just getting old. Just my two c. > > > Beers. > > .mm > ___ > darktable developer mailing list > to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org > ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
Hi, Am 16.04.19 um 19:51 schrieb rawfiner: Currently, the place where big changes should be discussed is IRC (according to houz, as I have not seen this information anywhere, which is problematic as new contributors may make big changes, so they have at least to be able to know where is the place to discuss things). I think IRC is not convenient at all. I would like to discuss why I think making these discussion on IRC is bad, and what alternatives we have. rawfiner draws our attention to some very important issue here. Discussing darktable on very different channels is inefficient. We should consolidate discussions about darktable development to a single channel. I completely agree with the pros and cons mentioned by rafiner. I do not use IRC for the reasons mentioned by rawfiner. I do use, however, github, as it is the most convenient platform for me. I would invest even more time to participate in discussions on github if this would be the commonly accepted platform for discussions on darktable development. Nevertheless, I am also aware of the potential drawbacks of relaying too heavily on the github platform. Possibly, we should redirect people to https://redmine.darktable.org/ Heiko -- -- Number Crunch Blog @ https://www.numbercrunch.de -- Cluster Computing @ https://www.clustercomputing.de -- Social Networking @ https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Heiko_Bauke ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
There is this thing called 'a news server' which has all of below but has infinite history (for free) and you can actually see who replied to whom before even opening/deciding to read a message. That feature alone makes a news server with a decent client (e.g. Thunderbird) a thousand times superior to something like e.g. Slack. And this stuff has been available since the 70's. For free. Maybe I'm just getting old. Just my two c. Beers. .mm ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
Hi, I have one addition to the list. I haven't been part of the dev team so I'm not offended, if my proposal won't be considered. We have been using in our company's context slack for discussions and information exchange. There are also other similar alternatives available. pros: – discussions organized by topic and could be even organized around wider topics (e.g. channel for UI, pixelpipe, different OSes, ...) – people can see the message when they want, and reply when they want, wherever they are on the planet – integrates with GitHub – free of charge (if 10k searchable history is enough) cons: – requires some admin to grant access – a philosophical question that can an open source project use a commercial tool :) -Juha On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 20:51, rawfiner wrote: > Dear all, > > Currently, the place where big changes should be discussed is IRC > (according to houz, as I have not seen this information anywhere, which is > problematic as new contributors may make big changes, so they have at least > to be able to know where is the place to discuss things). > I think IRC is not convenient at all. > > I would like to discuss why I think making these discussion on IRC is bad, > and what alternatives we have. > > IRC: > pros: honestly, I don't see any (it is nice for casual talk, but > discussing important changes is very different than casual talk...) > cons: > - no logs. Basically, if you are not connected at the right time to > discuss about the changes, you cannot catch up, and you cannot even know > what decision was taken! > - instantaneous chatting. While it is nice for casual talk, it forces to > write answer fastly. For making important decision, we should have least > have a platform were anyone can take time to write argumented answers. In > addition, answering quickly does leave enough time to think about the way > to say things, which can result in misunderstandings, under-thought > answers, potentially even anger. > - people at different places in the planet just can't be all at the same > time connected > - all topics are messed up in the discussion, thus even if we had a > logging system it would be hard to find a particular topic easily > > Existing dev mailing list: > pros: > - it is logical for new devs to join the mailing list (way more logical > than connecting 24h/24h to an IRC channel in my opinion) > - people can see the message when they want, and reply when they want, > wherever they are on the planet > - we can have conversations organised by topics > cons: > - the mailing list is used for several purpose (help requested to develop > a module, bugs, interaction between user and devs, and information about > ongoing developments). This con could be compensated by using a tag in > subjects related to big changes, like [big-changes] or whatever you prefer. > This way, even devs which are overwhelmed with emails would have a way to > filter out email that may involve important decision. > > Creating another mailing list: > Basically the same pros than using the existing mailing list. The only > difference I see is that we wouldn't need to put a tag in the email topic. > > Using discuss.pixls.us with a category with limited access: > pros: > - we could benefit from the forum's math support to discuss while showing > math stuff if needed > - people can see the message when they want, and reply when they want, > wherever they are on the planet > - we can have conversations organised by topics > cons: > - a limited access would exclude new contributors from the conversation, > whereas in my opinion any contributor should be able to defend his ideas > > Using github by commenting directly on PRs > pros: > - we can comment directly near the code, and we can comment code details > - people can see the message when they want, and reply when they want, > wherever they are on the planet > - we can have conversations organised by topics (PRs) > cons: > - devs will have to check new PRs regularly to give their opinion, and a > big-change PR may "hide" in between small ones. However, we could easily > have a tag "big-change" to request devs to pay attention to particular PRs, > or use the PRs names to indicate such big changes > - big changes should be discussed before making them. Yet, I think this > drawback can be compensated by making PRs really early, which is already > done by several of us (see PRs with [WIP] in the title) > > What do you think? > Please, give your opinion on all options, and select at least 2 solutions > that could be ok for you, so that we can make a decision at the end. > Also, if you don't like a solution, please explain why. > > I personally prefer the use of current mailing list with tags in the topic > names, or to use github and comment directly on PRs. It would be ok for me > as well if we use discuss.pixls.us. I think creating a new mailing list > is a bit overkill, but I would be ok with it if others prefer this. Last, I > think continuing using IRC for t
[darktable-dev] where to discuss big changes
Dear all, Currently, the place where big changes should be discussed is IRC (according to houz, as I have not seen this information anywhere, which is problematic as new contributors may make big changes, so they have at least to be able to know where is the place to discuss things). I think IRC is not convenient at all. I would like to discuss why I think making these discussion on IRC is bad, and what alternatives we have. IRC: pros: honestly, I don't see any (it is nice for casual talk, but discussing important changes is very different than casual talk...) cons: - no logs. Basically, if you are not connected at the right time to discuss about the changes, you cannot catch up, and you cannot even know what decision was taken! - instantaneous chatting. While it is nice for casual talk, it forces to write answer fastly. For making important decision, we should have least have a platform were anyone can take time to write argumented answers. In addition, answering quickly does leave enough time to think about the way to say things, which can result in misunderstandings, under-thought answers, potentially even anger. - people at different places in the planet just can't be all at the same time connected - all topics are messed up in the discussion, thus even if we had a logging system it would be hard to find a particular topic easily Existing dev mailing list: pros: - it is logical for new devs to join the mailing list (way more logical than connecting 24h/24h to an IRC channel in my opinion) - people can see the message when they want, and reply when they want, wherever they are on the planet - we can have conversations organised by topics cons: - the mailing list is used for several purpose (help requested to develop a module, bugs, interaction between user and devs, and information about ongoing developments). This con could be compensated by using a tag in subjects related to big changes, like [big-changes] or whatever you prefer. This way, even devs which are overwhelmed with emails would have a way to filter out email that may involve important decision. Creating another mailing list: Basically the same pros than using the existing mailing list. The only difference I see is that we wouldn't need to put a tag in the email topic. Using discuss.pixls.us with a category with limited access: pros: - we could benefit from the forum's math support to discuss while showing math stuff if needed - people can see the message when they want, and reply when they want, wherever they are on the planet - we can have conversations organised by topics cons: - a limited access would exclude new contributors from the conversation, whereas in my opinion any contributor should be able to defend his ideas Using github by commenting directly on PRs pros: - we can comment directly near the code, and we can comment code details - people can see the message when they want, and reply when they want, wherever they are on the planet - we can have conversations organised by topics (PRs) cons: - devs will have to check new PRs regularly to give their opinion, and a big-change PR may "hide" in between small ones. However, we could easily have a tag "big-change" to request devs to pay attention to particular PRs, or use the PRs names to indicate such big changes - big changes should be discussed before making them. Yet, I think this drawback can be compensated by making PRs really early, which is already done by several of us (see PRs with [WIP] in the title) What do you think? Please, give your opinion on all options, and select at least 2 solutions that could be ok for you, so that we can make a decision at the end. Also, if you don't like a solution, please explain why. I personally prefer the use of current mailing list with tags in the topic names, or to use github and comment directly on PRs. It would be ok for me as well if we use discuss.pixls.us. I think creating a new mailing list is a bit overkill, but I would be ok with it if others prefer this. Last, I think continuing using IRC for this purpose would be a big mistake, that will lead to more communication issues, so I am totally against this solution. I hope we will find a solution so that amazing changes to this amazing software can be peacefully discussed in the future. Cheers, rawfiner ___ darktable developer mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-dev+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
