Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
Hi Remco, I haven been reading a lot lately about this matter, and I think I'm beginning to understand how it works. But, I'm still puzzled by something like this: I calibrated my monitor and I checked that DT is using the display profile. Then, in DT, when I view this image of a poppy with that display I see it like this: http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1562447001.png When I toggle the softproof which is set to either sRGB or AdobeRGB, I see the image like this: http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1562447215.jpg I did not expect to see any difference, because they are both RGB and the display profile is intended to also show RGB (99,5% AdobeRGB). Why do I see this difference? Op 12-06-19 om 07:56 schreef Remco Viëtor: On mardi 11 juin 2019 21:57:55 CEST Kneops wrote: I'm afraid I'm once more lost in the world of color (profiles). I've read al lot in the manual about color settings, but just don't know what the right settings need to be. I have a Nikon D850 set to Adobe RGB, and I had my monitor calibrated with Spider 4, and DT uses this icc file. I checked with darktable-cmstest. The color in DT of a poppy was very vivid, with a a little magenta in the red. I exported the image as sRGB for web and as Adobe RGB hirez. Geeqie (also using the same monitor ICC) shows more red, less magenta. Uploaded the image to Instagram and both in Firefox and Chrome the image looks totally dull and darker and I removed the image immediately. As far as I know both Chrome and Firefox can read the color profile of images. What monitor profile should DT use? Adobe RGB? Or the ICC from Spider? Should I unbreak the color profile (initially set to standard color matrix) and set it manually to Adobe RGB? Don't confuse *colour space* and *monitor profile*. The colour space is *device independent* and describes what absolute colour a given RGB triplet corresponds to. That's the one you select on export or as "output colour profile". The best one to pick depends on what you want to do with the image. In an ideal world, the monitor should receive an RGB triplet and show the proper colour. In practice, that's not quite the case. Worse, every monitor can show a slightly different colour for a given RGB triplet. So you need something to tell your system how a given RGB triplet should be corrected for *your* particular monitor. That's what the display profile does. The same reasoning holds for printing, which explains the enourmous number of colour profiles you find there (one for every combination of printer, ink and paper...). As for the input colour profile: when using Raw files, it should be the standard colour matrix (or a profile specifically created for your camera), when using another file type, it should correspond to the file you use. Your monitor profile should be the Spider one. But, afaik, most modern operating systems allow you to set the display profile to use globally, and that should be used by all programs. In that case there's no need to set a display profile in dt or any other program (and this might even have a negative effect, if it gets applied on top of the system profile). Remco P.S. Check your image for clipping in the red channel, in my experience esp. red flowers like poppies are prone to that, due to the way the camera measures the exposure combined with the high multiplication of the red channel in the white balance setting. Remco darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
Hi Kofa, I shoot raw mainly, sometimes together with jpeg in higher ISO because I find the noise reduction of the jpegs produced within the camera better than in DT (shooting with Nikon D850 or Fuji XT2). Op 17-06-19 om 20:52 schreef KOVÁCS István: When I have my display in Gamut Checking set to my system display or explicitely to my monitor display ICC (which is the same) and I set softproof even to that same profile, it still shows me colors that are outside the Gamut. Actually, no matter what combination I choose (srgb as monitor display and adobe as softproof or the other way around) I always get to see colors that are out of gamut. I don't understand how this works. Raw files have very wide gamuts (can represent more colours than sRGB and Adobe RGB). Gamut checking will show you the areas that have colours that cannot be represented in the output colour space (whether it's sRGB or your display's or printer's colour space). So, as others have noted, it's not surprising that you have areas marked as having out-of-colour colours when using gamut check. Having them is not a big problem, as far as I'm concerned: the fact that darktable can show your processed raw while you're editing it demonstrates the fact that the colour management libraries are doing their job, and re-map the out-of-gamut colours to the device's colour space. When I set my softproof and system display to the same profile (the one installed via Spider 4) and do a gamut check, I can still see 'out of gamut' colors. Is that correct??? I was under the impression that I should see no colors out of gamut. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
Hi Remco, Thanks for explaining these things to me. I'm going to save some of it so I can explain it to myself when I forget how it works ;). So my monitor is calibrated with Spider 4, set as system default. My export profile is Adobe RGB when its purpose is printing (magazine or newspaper) and smaller images for web in sRGB. So that should be fine. One thing that pops into my mind now is that I use Photodesk, an online portfolio where people can download (hi-rez) images. These are all images with the Adobe RGB profiles, but people could use them for other purposes like digital printing or for large screens. What do you think, should I start uploading images to Photodesk in sRGB from now one? Photodesk converts images for display purposes in the online portfolio to sRGB, but the downloads will always have the original profile. But now I wonder if it really matters, sRGB or Adobe RGB. Aat least on my screen I can't tell the difference... Op 12-06-19 om 07:56 schreef Remco Viëtor: On mardi 11 juin 2019 21:57:55 CEST Kneops wrote: I'm afraid I'm once more lost in the world of color (profiles). I've read al lot in the manual about color settings, but just don't know what the right settings need to be. I have a Nikon D850 set to Adobe RGB, and I had my monitor calibrated with Spider 4, and DT uses this icc file. I checked with darktable-cmstest. The color in DT of a poppy was very vivid, with a a little magenta in the red. I exported the image as sRGB for web and as Adobe RGB hirez. Geeqie (also using the same monitor ICC) shows more red, less magenta. Uploaded the image to Instagram and both in Firefox and Chrome the image looks totally dull and darker and I removed the image immediately. As far as I know both Chrome and Firefox can read the color profile of images. What monitor profile should DT use? Adobe RGB? Or the ICC from Spider? Should I unbreak the color profile (initially set to standard color matrix) and set it manually to Adobe RGB? Don't confuse *colour space* and *monitor profile*. The colour space is *device independent* and describes what absolute colour a given RGB triplet corresponds to. That's the one you select on export or as "output colour profile". The best one to pick depends on what you want to do with the image. In an ideal world, the monitor should receive an RGB triplet and show the proper colour. In practice, that's not quite the case. Worse, every monitor can show a slightly different colour for a given RGB triplet. So you need something to tell your system how a given RGB triplet should be corrected for *your* particular monitor. That's what the display profile does. The same reasoning holds for printing, which explains the enourmous number of colour profiles you find there (one for every combination of printer, ink and paper...). As for the input colour profile: when using Raw files, it should be the standard colour matrix (or a profile specifically created for your camera), when using another file type, it should correspond to the file you use. Your monitor profile should be the Spider one. But, afaik, most modern operating systems allow you to set the display profile to use globally, and that should be used by all programs. In that case there's no need to set a display profile in dt or any other program (and this might even have a negative effect, if it gets applied on top of the system profile). Remco P.S. Check your image for clipping in the red channel, in my experience esp. red flowers like poppies are prone to that, due to the way the camera measures the exposure combined with the high multiplication of the red channel in the white balance setting. Remco darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
Hi, Maybe I have missed it, but I don't remember you mentioning whether you shoot raw or JPG. For raw, the colour space you set in the camera does not matter (it uses the camera's colour space, so to say). For JPG, it does. So: do you shoot raw or JPG? On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 at 13:14, Kneops wrote: > > When I have my display in Gamut Checking set to my system display or > explicitely to my monitor display ICC (which is the same) and I set > softproof even to that same profile, it still shows me colors that are > outside the Gamut. Actually, no matter what combination I choose (srgb > as monitor display and adobe as softproof or the other way around) I > always get to see colors that are out of gamut. > I don't understand how this works. Raw files have very wide gamuts (can represent more colours than sRGB and Adobe RGB). Gamut checking will show you the areas that have colours that cannot be represented in the output colour space (whether it's sRGB or your display's or printer's colour space). So, as others have noted, it's not surprising that you have areas marked as having out-of-colour colours when using gamut check. Having them is not a big problem, as far as I'm concerned: the fact that darktable can show your processed raw while you're editing it demonstrates the fact that the colour management libraries are doing their job, and re-map the out-of-gamut colours to the device's colour space. Remco wrote: > Iirc, the "input profile" module has an option to force colours into a given > gamut. I think that's "gamut clipping", described under https://darktable.gitlab.io/doc/en/color_group.html#input_color_profile I was under the impression that it does the clipping only once (after applying the input profile). Can someone tell me which way it is (once, or after each module's operation)? If only once, it could mean that even if you clip to sRGB, operations that come later in the pipeline may still produce colours outside of sRGB. Kofa darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
On dimanche 16 juin 2019 13:14:13 CEST Kneops wrote: > About this: > > I guess you could set sRGB as the soft proofing & gamut-check profile > > to see (an approximation of) how the picture will look in sRGB and > > what's out of gamut for sRGB, respectively. > > When I have my display in Gamut Checking set to my system display or > explicitely to my monitor display ICC (which is the same) and I set > softproof even to that same profile, it still shows me colors that are > outside the Gamut. Actually, no matter what combination I choose (srgb > as monitor display and adobe as softproof or the other way around) I > always get to see colors that are out of gamut. > I don't understand how this works. > > I have a Dell U2713H monitor that covers 99% of Adobe RGB. The colours displayed are *of course* within the monitor gamut (it can't display colours outside its gamut, by definition). And they will also be within the export gamut... So the "out of gamut" display has to consider the colours before the application of the soft-proofing profile to be of any use. Iirc, the "input profile" module has an option to force colours into a given gamut. Remco darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
On Sun, 16 Jun 2019 13:14:13 +0200 Kneops wrote: > Actually, no matter what combination I > choose (srgb as monitor display and adobe as > softproof or the other way around) I always > get to see colors that are out of gamut. I > don't understand how this works. One thing are the colors actually in your image, and another is, how you tell dt to display them. If your image, in CIE Lab has colors which are out of gamut in Adobe RGB, they are most likely also out of gamut in sRGB. Try an image with a 50% gray. All out of gamut should go away. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
About this: > I guess you could set sRGB as the soft proofing & gamut-check profile > to see (an approximation of) how the picture will look in sRGB and > what's out of gamut for sRGB, respectively. When I have my display in Gamut Checking set to my system display or explicitely to my monitor display ICC (which is the same) and I set softproof even to that same profile, it still shows me colors that are outside the Gamut. Actually, no matter what combination I choose (srgb as monitor display and adobe as softproof or the other way around) I always get to see colors that are out of gamut. I don't understand how this works. I have a Dell U2713H monitor that covers 99% of Adobe RGB. Op 12-06-19 om 21:23 schreef KOVÁCS István: Hi, On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 at 21:59, Kneops wrote: I have a Nikon D850 set to Adobe RGB, If you shoot raw, colour space in camera does not matter (raw files record the signal values the sensor measures; it's the job of the input colour profile to tell darktable how to interpret those numbers). and I had my monitor calibrated with Spider 4, and DT uses this icc file. I checked with darktable-cmstest. The color in DT of a poppy was very vivid, with a a little magenta in the red. I exported the image as sRGB for web and as Adobe RGB hirez. Geeqie (also using the same monitor ICC) shows more red, less magenta. Since that's already after the output colour transformation, your output image may not be able to represent all colours in the image. See https://darktable.gitlab.io/doc/en/darkroom_bottom_panel.html#softproof and https://darktable.gitlab.io/doc/en/darkroom_bottom_panel.html#gamutcheck). I guess you could set sRGB as the soft proofing & gamut-check profile to see (an approximation of) how the picture will look in sRGB and what's out of gamut for sRGB, respectively. Also, have you set the display profile in Geeqie preferences? http://www.geeqie.org/help/GuideOptionsColor.html Uploaded the image to Instagram and both in Firefox and Chrome the image looks totally dull and darker and I removed the image immediately. As far as I know both Chrome and Firefox can read the color profile of images. Try some tests to see if they are properly set up, e.g.: https://cameratico.com/tools/web-browser-color-management-test/ http://www.color.org/browsertest.xalter https://chromachecker.com/info/en/page/webbrowser What monitor profile should DT use? Adobe RGB? Or the ICC from Spider? ICC from the Spyder. Should I unbreak the color profile (initially set to standard color matrix) and set it manually to Adobe RGB? If you're shooting raw, leave it alone. If shooting Adobe RGB JPG or TIFF (non-raw files), you may want to explicitly set it. Kofa darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
Hi, On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 at 21:59, Kneops wrote: > I have a Nikon D850 set to Adobe RGB, If you shoot raw, colour space in camera does not matter (raw files record the signal values the sensor measures; it's the job of the input colour profile to tell darktable how to interpret those numbers). > and I had my monitor calibrated > with Spider 4, and DT uses this icc file. I checked with darktable-cmstest. > > The color in DT of a poppy was very vivid, with a a little magenta in > the red. I exported the image as sRGB for web and as Adobe RGB hirez. > > Geeqie (also using the same monitor ICC) shows more red, less magenta. Since that's already after the output colour transformation, your output image may not be able to represent all colours in the image. See https://darktable.gitlab.io/doc/en/darkroom_bottom_panel.html#softproof and https://darktable.gitlab.io/doc/en/darkroom_bottom_panel.html#gamutcheck). I guess you could set sRGB as the soft proofing & gamut-check profile to see (an approximation of) how the picture will look in sRGB and what's out of gamut for sRGB, respectively. Also, have you set the display profile in Geeqie preferences? http://www.geeqie.org/help/GuideOptionsColor.html > Uploaded the image to Instagram and both in Firefox and Chrome the image > looks totally dull and darker and I removed the image immediately. As > far as I know both Chrome and Firefox can read the color profile of images. Try some tests to see if they are properly set up, e.g.: https://cameratico.com/tools/web-browser-color-management-test/ http://www.color.org/browsertest.xalter https://chromachecker.com/info/en/page/webbrowser > What monitor profile should DT use? Adobe RGB? Or the ICC from Spider? ICC from the Spyder. > Should I unbreak the color profile (initially set to standard color > matrix) and set it manually to Adobe RGB? If you're shooting raw, leave it alone. If shooting Adobe RGB JPG or TIFF (non-raw files), you may want to explicitly set it. Kofa darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
On mardi 11 juin 2019 21:57:55 CEST Kneops wrote: > I'm afraid I'm once more lost in the world of color (profiles). > I've read al lot in the manual about color settings, but just don't know > what the right settings need to be. > > I have a Nikon D850 set to Adobe RGB, and I had my monitor calibrated > with Spider 4, and DT uses this icc file. I checked with darktable-cmstest. > > The color in DT of a poppy was very vivid, with a a little magenta in > the red. I exported the image as sRGB for web and as Adobe RGB hirez. > > Geeqie (also using the same monitor ICC) shows more red, less magenta. > > Uploaded the image to Instagram and both in Firefox and Chrome the image > looks totally dull and darker and I removed the image immediately. As > far as I know both Chrome and Firefox can read the color profile of images. > > What monitor profile should DT use? Adobe RGB? Or the ICC from Spider? > Should I unbreak the color profile (initially set to standard color > matrix) and set it manually to Adobe RGB? Don't confuse *colour space* and *monitor profile*. The colour space is *device independent* and describes what absolute colour a given RGB triplet corresponds to. That's the one you select on export or as "output colour profile". The best one to pick depends on what you want to do with the image. In an ideal world, the monitor should receive an RGB triplet and show the proper colour. In practice, that's not quite the case. Worse, every monitor can show a slightly different colour for a given RGB triplet. So you need something to tell your system how a given RGB triplet should be corrected for *your* particular monitor. That's what the display profile does. The same reasoning holds for printing, which explains the enourmous number of colour profiles you find there (one for every combination of printer, ink and paper...). As for the input colour profile: when using Raw files, it should be the standard colour matrix (or a profile specifically created for your camera), when using another file type, it should correspond to the file you use. Your monitor profile should be the Spider one. But, afaik, most modern operating systems allow you to set the display profile to use globally, and that should be used by all programs. In that case there's no need to set a display profile in dt or any other program (and this might even have a negative effect, if it gets applied on top of the system profile). Remco P.S. Check your image for clipping in the red channel, in my experience esp. red flowers like poppies are prone to that, due to the way the camera measures the exposure combined with the high multiplication of the red channel in the white balance setting. Remco darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
Kneops schrieb am 11.06.19 um 21:57: I'm afraid I'm once more lost in the world of color (profiles). I've read al lot in the manual about color settings, but just don't know what the right settings need to be. I have a Nikon D850 set to Adobe RGB, which doesn't mean anything if you are shooting RAW, that's only important for jpeg and I had my monitor calibrated with Spider 4, and DT uses this icc file. I checked with darktable-cmstest. The color in DT of a poppy was very vivid, with a a little magenta in the red. I exported the image as sRGB for web that's also ok and as Adobe RGB hirez. Geeqie (also using the same monitor ICC) shows more red, less magenta. Uploaded the image to Instagram and both in Firefox and Chrome the image looks totally dull and darker and I removed the image immediately. As far as I know both Chrome and Firefox can read the color profile of images. At least for Firefox there is a setting with 3 options: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Releases/3.5/ICC_color_correction_in_Firefox so ... you never know how the browser of the end-user is set ... that's why _exporting_ to sRGB is a good thing, it's the "smallest common denominator" and that's why there is a possibility for "proof" in most color-aware software - that's a "preview" what the end-user should see. What monitor profile should DT use? Adobe RGB? Or the ICC from Spider? Should I unbreak the color profile (initially set to standard color matrix) and set it manually to Adobe RGB? There is a nice article about color management _within your workflow_ here https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/monitor-profile-calibrate-confuse.html darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org -- regards Bernhard https://www.bilddateien.de darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
Re: [darktable-user] Completely lost in colors (again)
On Tue, 11 Jun 2019 21:57:55 +0200 Kneops wrote: > Uploaded the image to Instagram and both in > Firefox and Chrome the image looks totally > dull and darker and I removed the image > immediately. [...] > What monitor profile should DT use? Adobe > RGB? Or the ICC from Spider? Should I unbreak > the color profile (initially set to standard > color matrix) and set it manually to Adobe > RGB? If your monitor can and does show Adobe RGB, you should use a display profile of Adobe RGB. To upload on Instagram, sRGB seems to be a better choice. Using the default sRGB also gave me rather unsatisfying results. Now I'm using a ICC v2 Profile from color.org, that from 2014, which I think looks much better. darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
