Re: Decision making in Debian
On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 1:20 PM Tollef Fog Heen wrote: > > > We don't have any form of decision making process on mailing lists. As > > others have mentioned, when we make a project-wide vote (like DPL > > elections or a GR), then that's co-ordinated by the project secretary. > > I think the word «formal» is missing from the paragraph above (and even > in that case, things like proposing GRs and amendmends to ballot options > do happen on mailing lists, so it's a bit in the eye of the > beholder). :-) Quite a lot of decisions are made every day on mailing > lists (and IRC, Matrix, in person, and in a whole lot of other arenas) > they're just a lot less formal than GRs. > > (As a more general comment to the suggestion to use liquidfeedback, I'm > not sure what problem is being addressed. I think figuring that out > first is rather important.) > LiquidFeedback is a tool designed for collaborative decision making. It seems that there is some research behind it as well: https://interaktive-demokratie.org/research.en.html I don't claim that I understand these topics. I just have a feeling that it might be useful for a group of people that try to make decisions collaboratively, and it might be better than using ad-hoc tools and methods. I am not sure that it does actually work, and that it does work as expected, but I am willing to give it a try and to find it out. Henry Ford, who industrialized the production of cars, is quoted to have said: "If I would have asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses." My point is: let's give LiquidFeedback a try and see whether it is worth, whether it solves any problems, etc. We can't know without trying it. We don't need to invent and develop it (which might take a huge effort), we just need to install it and give it a try, which is feasible in my opinion.
Re: Decision making in Debian
On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 10:13 AM Mattia Rizzolo wrote: > On Thu, Jul 14, 2022 at 10:07:04AM +0200, Dashamir Hoxha wrote: > > I am not sure how democratic decision making is made in Debian > > The only "democratic decision making" in Debian are GRs. > > Everything else is not democratic, but up to every single person/team in > charge (and when there is a team is normally composed of very few people > where really no tool is needed to help them make decisions). > Most probably you are right. But I have seen recently a very long discussion thread in a mailing list, with pros and cons about introducing Discourse as an alternative or replacement to mailing lists, and the result of the discussion was not clear at all (at least I could not understand it). I am also not sure what happened with the Discourse initiative, was it finally tried or not.
Re: Your personalized DC22 Key Signing Party Map is now available!
On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 7:02 AM Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > always hold our continuou key signing party. The listing for this > year's KSP is now available at: > > https://people.debian.org/~gwolf/dc22_ksp/dc22_fprs.txt > > Please download that file, check the sha256 and ripemd160 sums, print > it out, and be ready for some CoC-abiding, fingerprint exchange action! > It seems that there are printers at the venue. Does it make sense if the organizers of the conference print a few copies of the list, and the interested people go and get a copy?
Decision making in Debian
Hi, I am not sure how democratic decision making is made in Debian, but I guess it is done through mailing lists, which in my opinion are not the best tool for this purpose. I'd be interested in discussing about what can be done to improve this process. Maybe we can give a try to LiquidFeedback (https://liquidfeedback.com/en/). Can we arrange a meeting to discuss about it? I'll be at the DebConf up to 24. I am not a proper member of the Debian community (maybe I am somewhere on some outer circle), so decision making in Debian should not be my concern (does not have to be). But I am interested in testing LiquidFeedback, to see whether it works as supposed and as expected. I have already installed it somewhere, but I have not been able to configure it properly, so it is not yet in a usable state. The configuration problems maybe can be fixed easily, but the real issue is whether it behaves as expected if used by a community. And I think that the Debian community might be a good use case for testing it. Regards, Dashamir
Re: Debian BootCamp for people new to Debian
On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 3:00 PM Pirate Praveen wrote: > > We are happy to see many people new to Debian (for example Outreachy > and Google Summer of Code interns) attending the DebConf. > > This BootCamp is an opportunity to get introduced to Debian and have > some hands-on experience with using Debian and contributing to Debian. > > Mentors: Sruthi Chandran; Pirate Praveen. (People interested to mentor, > add your name to https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/22/DebCamp#Your_plans > ) > > Venue: Noisy Hacklab > Contact: Sruthi Chandran (srud on OFTC or "srud at debian dot org) > When: 13-15 Jul 2022 - Starting at 2 pm after lunch and we will > interactively adapt the topics covered based on your level of > understanding and we can connect you with teams you are interested in. > > We can help you choose technical (for example packaging, bug fixing, > transitions, system administration etc) or non technical (for example > plublicity, design, organizing events, translations etc) contributions > as per your interest. > I'd like to get some guidance on how to get involved with system administration. I'll be present at the bootcamp today, at about 14:00 (hopefully). Be prepared. > > Pirate Praveen > >
Re: We want your cheese
On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 10:49 PM Vincent Bernat wrote: > > All mailing list managers have this issue. If they put footers, you can > notice they are likely to mangle the From header for people with DKIM > signatures on their domain. The alternative is to remove signatures or > just ignore them and this is a recipe to categorized as spam. > They could resend the messages, instead of just forwarding them and modifying them on the fly. They can DKIM sign a message only if the original message that they received was properly signed (with DKIM). > We had this discussion two years ago: > https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/04/msg00074.html. I think > it went nowhere for the usual reasons (no opinion, just FI, so that you > know people you should get in touch with). > What happened? The last message seemed promising: https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2020/04/msg00234.html By the way, I don't intend to get in touch with anyone, if no-one wants to get in touch with me. I can also add that: - It is difficult to follow such a thread of discussion in a mailing list archive. It could have been much easier if the discussion was on discourse. - It is almost impossible for me to add anything to the discussion now (later), since I was not subscribed to the mailing list when the discussion was happening, and I don't have the emails (to which I can reply). - It is obvious that some of the messages on the discussion were clearly off topic. It could be beneficial if they were purged from that thread, or moved to some other thread. Personally, I would trust the judgment of the moderators on which messages were off topic. I would count these as advantages of using Discourse over a mailing list, but I don't want to start another debate on this issue. I also noticed that mailing lists are sometimes used for making "democratic" decisions. I think that they are not suitable for this purpose and software like LiquidFeedback might be much better: https://liquidfeedback.com/en/
Re: We want your cheese
This discussion has diverged from its original topic, but anyway. On Fri, Jul 8, 2022 at 8:15 PM Vincent Bernat wrote: > On 7/8/22 20:01, Znoteer wrote: > >> Similar information is normally on the > >> bottom of every email from a Debian mail distribution list. > > > > That's what I thought, too. But, there is no such info at the bottom of > the original cheese post, nor in your email to the list, nor in micah's. I > deleted Mart'N's email, but I don't recall seeing a footer there either. > I'm wondering if this list has been configured differently. > > These footers break DKIM signatures. Therefore, the list can either > modify the From to impersonate someone or ensure that the body is left > unmodified. AFAIK, no Debian list is using a footer anymore, except the > ones on "alioth". > I think that other mailing lists (or software that do the same or similar job) don't have such a problem (with DKIM signatures), because I see that they have a footer (including unsubscribe). So, maybe you should consider moving to some other mailing list software that is more up to date. If you ask me, I would suggest migrating the mailing lists to Discourse ( https://www.discourse.org/), which is a modern version of mailing lists. I have some experience with installing and maintaining Discourse, and I know how to make the migration from mailing lists to Discourse (I have done it for FLOSSK a few years ago). If anyone from the Debian infrastructure team would be interested to discuss more details about this, I will be available during the DebCamp and DebConf.
Re: DebCamp activities
On Wed, Jul 6, 2022 at 7:31 PM Enkelena Haxhiu wrote: > Hi, > > > > During DebCamp we may have people not involved in Debian who want to > attend and get to know the community. > > > > There might be students and people eager to learn, so my question is if > people are open to give random explanations or maybe some ad-hoc short > workshops on demand? > > > > Would be great to know actual names we could talk to when you arrive. So > feel free to reply here. > > > > Ideas how to implement such a thing are very welcome. > Enkelena, I will be present (hopefully) during the DebCamp. I am ready to help people install Debian, if they wish. If there are interested people, I can also organize a basic course on Linux Commands, based on this: https://ocw.fs.al/course/view.php?id=23 It is not quite related to Debian, but it should be good enough for beginners. It is better to create an event somewhere, where people can register, so that we can have an idea about how many people could participate, to notify them about the meeting times, etc.. We can also talk privately about the organization details, if these proposals seem interesting. Regards, Dashamir > > > Regards, > > Enkelena > > > > >
Re: Washing clothes
On Fri, Jul 1, 2022 at 2:07 PM Evangelos Ribeiro Tzaras < dev...@fortysixandtwo.eu> wrote: > Hi, > > I was wondering if there are some wash saloon things available at the > premises > (or in the city of Prizren). > I could find this one on the map: - https://goo.gl/maps/3N8jiKqCmLmuvnx38 - https://www.didalaundry.com/ Price: about 5 EUR
Re: DebConf22: Call for keys for keysigning in Prizren, Kosovo
On Fri, Jun 17, 2022 at 6:28 AM Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > We have different viewpoints :-) While you say the keyserver model is > broken beyond any repair, I stand by the opinion that it can be fixed, > and that it brings enough value by itself that it deserves being > fixed. There are many proposals to get keyservers back to a healthy > state, each with its different core propositions. > I did not say "beyond any repair". I am not an expert, it is not up to me to make such claims. I am not even sure what is wrong with the keyservers. I am only suggesting that we try something different. What is wrong with trying something new? When the keyservers get fixed and the experts recommend using them, I'd be happy to use them again. I (as the keysigning organizer) will suggest people to use > keyservers. Of course, everybody is able to do it whichever way they > see fit ;-) > No, there is only one way, the one that you suggest. I don't intend to run a parallel keysigning party, along with yours. Let's be clear about this.
Re: DebConf22: Call for keys for keysigning in Prizren, Kosovo
On Thu, Jun 16, 2022 at 8:29 PM Antonio Terceiro wrote: > > Your step 1 imposes an arbitrary amount of work on the person running > the keysigning, as they have to manually download keys from random > locations, instead of running a simple for loop over the fingerprints > collected from the DebConf22 registration data to fetch them from > keyservers. > I volunteer to do this part, if you don't mind. Anyone interested can upload his public keys here: https://cloud.fs.al/s/K9HzowEeyA6Azmf or send it to me by email (as an attachment).
Re: DebConf22: Call for keys for keysigning in Prizren, Kosovo
On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 12:28 AM Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > Most of you are aware that the keyserver network is currently in a > quite weak status; please ensure we can find your updated keys at > several different keyservers (at least, by uploading them); I suggest > you try something like the following: > > $ export MY_KEY=0x2404C9546E145360 # Naturally, your key goes here > $ for i in pgpkeys.eu pgp.surf.nl pgp.pm keyserver.ubuntu.com > the.earth.li > > do > > gpg --keyserver $i --send-key $MY_KEY > > done > Here are my public keys: https://cloud.fs.al/s/wrer7jXfF4EtZot/download/9EAA95B4E9731B6B757ACD629229692B9A5D205A.pubkey https://cloud.fs.al/s/m4GSibeESJA3enk/download/18931AB4720C1EA3C28B95B3775FB44C0C6AD08D.pubkey I'd suggest that we try a keysigning party without keyservers this time. It should not be very difficult. The issue is not whether the keyservers will be up during the conference or not, rather it is that the keyserver model seems to be broken and should be avoided/abandoned. About the WKD, if it does not support well keysigning and WoT, maybe it should be improved to support them. The ideal solution, in my opinion, would be to start using self-sovereign identity, but we are not there yet. To sign public keys without keyservers, as far as I can understand, the steps would be like these: 1. The coordinator collects all the public keys of the participant in a keyring and shares this keyring with all the participants (Gunnar has already mentioned that he is going to do this). 2. Each participant verifies physically some other participants and marks their fingerprints on the list, in order to sign them later. 3. Using the shared keyring and his private key, he signs each verified key, exports the key, encrypts it with the signed public key, and sends it by attachment to the corresponding owner. 4. The owner of the signed key decrypts it (which also verifies that he owns this key), and imports the signature on his key. 5. The owner of the key may publish the updated key, which includes the new signatures. Re-publishing can be done by WKD, by uploading it somewhere, sending it by attachment, etc. Maybe there are some issues with this process, I am not 100% sure that it works correctly. Regards, Dashamir
Re: DebConf22: Call for keys for keysigning in Prizren, Kosovo
On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 8:41 PM Altin Guberi wrote: > Hello, > > Thanks for your response. > > Is the PGP key mandatory like to be completed before the conference ? > Or it is also possible to do it while I am at the activity? > It is completely optional. You don't have to bother with it, unless you want to start contributing to Debian by maintaining one or more packages. In this case you need to sign your packages with your PGP key, for security reasons, and your key needs to be recognized by the other Debian developers, in order to make sure that it is you who built the package and not someone else. For participating in the conference you don't need a PGP key.
Re: DebConf22: Call for keys for keysigning in Prizren, Kosovo
On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 5:20 PM Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > But keysigning has been done since before keyservers were a thing; > keyservers make many things easier, although are not fundamental for > the WoT to work. > > Anyway... I guess you can see I have many things to say about this ;-) > See you in Kosovo, and we will be able to discuss in person. And of > course, see you in: > > > https://debconf22.debconf.org/talks/31-openpgp-web-of-trust-a-way-forward/ I am looking forward to discussing these issues with you. I have some experience with WKD (Web Key Directory) which is a distributed alternative for keyservers, and is even regarded as a replacement for them. But I am not sure how suitable or easy is WKD for being used with keysigning. Is Debian already using WKD? See you there, Dashamir
Re: DebConf22: Call for keys for keysigning in Prizren, Kosovo
On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 12:28 AM Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > Most of you are aware that the keyserver network is currently in a > quite weak status; please ensure we can find your updated keys at > several different keyservers (at least, by uploading them); I suggest > you try something like the following: > > $ export MY_KEY=0x2404C9546E145360 # Naturally, your key goes here > $ for i in pgpkeys.eu pgp.surf.nl pgp.pm keyserver.ubuntu.com > the.earth.li > > do > > gpg --keyserver $i --send-key $MY_KEY > > done > Is it possible to avoid the keyserver network somehow? Because as you mentioned, it is failing, and also it is not recommended to use it anymore (as far as I know). For example, instead of uploading the fingerprint, we can upload the public key itself somewhere, in a public place, or send it by attachment to a coordinator. Maybe I am missing something. Maybe a keysigning party makes no sense without a keyserver infrastructure. I am not sure. Regards, Dashamir
Re: DebConf22: Call for keys for keysigning in Prizren, Kosovo
On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 2:57 PM Altin Guberi wrote: > Hello, > > Thanks for your email. > > Unfortunately I am quite new to this. > > Can you let me know how to find or create PGP key fingerprint on Windows ? > Altin, you should start by installing Linux, preferably Debian, on your computer. I would recommend you LMDE (Linux Mint Debian Edition): https://linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php It is possible to install it in parallel with Windows, without damaging your existing system. I will be present during the conference, I can help you with this, if needed. I am sure that you can find other people that can help you as well. After installing Linux, you can generate a GnuPG key, and then continue with the rest of the steps. Regards, Dashamir
Re: DebConf22 bursaries for food or accommodation
On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 2:49 PM Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana < p...@debian.org> wrote: > Hi, > > If you missed the deadline to ask for DebConf22 bursaries, we have a good > news: > you can still ask for food and/or accommodation. > > It is not possible to ask for a bursary through the registration form now, > but > if you are interested, please send an e-mail to bursar...@debconf.org > saying if > you need: > - Food only > - Accommodation only > - Food + Accommodation > for the specific dates you plan to attend, and specify what you intend to > do at > DebConf22. > I am planning to participate in DebCamp22 (10-16 July), and I need Food+Accomodation support, if possible. I'd like to work on installing and testing DebianEdu in a virtual environment (similar to this: http://dashohoxha.fs.al/docs/testing-fuss-with-lxd.html). Then, trying to fix any issues, if possible. Of course, this is going to be more efficient and productive if some other guys with DebianEdu experience will join me there. I have sent a request/notification about this on the DebianEdu mailing list: https://lists.debian.org/debian-edu/2022/05/msg00022.html Let's see if this works out. Regards, Dashamir
Re: DebConf22 bursaries for food or accommodation
On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 10:48 PM Gunnar Wolf wrote: > > Many people find their way into getting involved with Debian during > DebConf by joining the teams that are busy setting things up for the > conference -- Video, network and infrastrcture, front desk, mainly. I > saw Paulo Henrique already sent also a coordination list, which you > might find useful. > > This year, sadly (due to the distance and that I cannot leave my > obligations for so long) I will not be joining DebConf. > > Anyway -- up to you to decide how you want to get involved (and, of > course, there is no obligation to do so!) > Thanks for your answer. I am waiting to see if anything appears on the coordination list: - https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/22/DebCamp Then I will decide whether some activities are interesting for me and I'd like to join them. Regards, Dashamir
Re: DebConf22 bursaries for food or accommodation
On Tue, May 17, 2022 at 7:32 PM gregor herrmann wrote: > On Tue, 17 May 2022 11:43:49 +0200, Dashamir Hoxha wrote: > > > I'd be interested in joining the DebCamp, provided that some interesting > > activities are planned. > > So, let me know if there are any plans for DebCamp. > > Please take a look at <https://debconf22.debconf.org/about/debcamp/> > which explains how DebCamp works. > I have seen that and I have an idea about how DebCamp works, but there are no details there about any plans for DebCamp22. I am willing to help with hacking (if any), but I can't do it by myself (alone) because I am not a debian maintainer or something else. I have a good experience with infrastructure and maybe I can help with that, if possible. If there are any trainings about how to become a debian maintainer, I'd be willing to participate. But in case that no one needs any help, that's still fine, I don't have to bother myself. Cheers, Dashamir
Re: DebConf22 bursaries for food or accommodation
On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 10:56 AM Dashamir Hoxha wrote: > > What activities are usually done during DebCamp (before DebConf)? > > If it sounds interesting, I may do a course on Bash Scripting: > - Recorded lessons: > > https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqq78M1GnIlHiOeYDUIuXYSAOaDhgemSa > - Moodle course: >https://ocw.fs.al/course/view.php?id=23 > It would run for 6-7 days, 100 min each day (including short breaks). > But of course this does not seem quite related to Debian and its > activities. > > I may also help with improving the Debian infrastructure. > For example, do you already use WKD for sharing your public keys? > If not I can help you to set it up, because I do have some experience with > it: > - http://dashohoxha.fs.al/web-key-directory/ > Or maybe you need sometimes to use Wireguard VPN: > - http://dashohoxha.fs.al/using-wireguard-vpn/ > But working on infrastructure requires that some of the people who > maintain it are present at the DebCamp too. > I'd be interested in joining the DebCamp, provided that some interesting activities are planned. So, let me know if there are any plans for DebCamp. By the way, I have already confirmed that I will join DebConf. Regards, Dashamir
Re: DebConf22 bursaries for food or accommodation
On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 2:49 PM Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana < p...@debian.org> wrote: > Hi, > > If you missed the deadline to ask for DebConf22 bursaries, we have a good > news: > you can still ask for food and/or accommodation. > What activities are usually done during DebCamp (before DebConf)? If it sounds interesting, I may do a course on Bash Scripting: - Recorded lessons: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLqq78M1GnIlHiOeYDUIuXYSAOaDhgemSa - Moodle course: https://ocw.fs.al/course/view.php?id=23 It would run for 6-7 days, 100 min each day (including short breaks). But of course this does not seem quite related to Debian and its activities. I may also help with improving the Debian infrastructure. For example, do you already use WKD for sharing your public keys? If not I can help you to set it up, because I do have some experience with it: - http://dashohoxha.fs.al/web-key-directory/ Or maybe you need sometimes to use Wireguard VPN: - http://dashohoxha.fs.al/using-wireguard-vpn/ But working on infrastructure requires that some of the people who maintain it are present at the DebCamp too. Anyway, I am not sure yet whether I will be able to participate, but it doesn't hurt to discuss it. I'd like to know what you think about it. By the way, I have already applied for DebConf Food+Accomodation support and it has been accepted. I should be able to confirm it soon (in a week or so, before 20 May). Regards, Dashamir > It is not possible to ask for a bursary through the registration form now, > but > if you are interested, please send an e-mail to bursar...@debconf.org > saying if > you need: > - Food only > - Accommodation only > - Food + Accommodation > for the specific dates you plan to attend, and specify what you intend to > do at > DebConf22. > > We are no longer accepting requests for travel bursary. > > Best regards, > > -- > Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls) > Belo Horizonte - Brasil > Debian Developer > Diretor do Instituto para Conservação de Tecnologias Livres > Site: http://phls.com.br > GNU/Linux user: 228719 GPG ID: 0443C450 >
