Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Gunnar Wolf]

Giovanni Mascellani dijo [Fri, May 22, 2020 at 03:51:09PM +0200]:
> (...)

(Not specifically answering to Gio, but to the thread as a whole)

> (...) But meetings should remain as small as possible, and as
> geographically confined as possible. Organizing conferences with
> hundreds of people coming from all over the world is, in my opinion,
> irresponsible:

There's also the issue of getting there --- Most people travelling to
Israel will have to switch airplanes at an intermediate airport. Big
airports simply is something that scares me currently. People comng
from all different origins into a single space.

In any case, a DebConf20 in August would surely not gather the usual
hundreds of people, but only some dozens.

> I am sorry for the organizing team, who for sure has poured a lot of
> energy and dedication into DebConf20. They deserve all our gratitude and
> they have all mine. I know it is disappointing to see their efforts
> wasted, but in the current situation I don't think it is responsible to
> physically meet from all over the world. It's not just about the risk
> each individual attendee would accept to take: it's the risk our whole
> communities take (particularly the vulnerable ones, from the health
> viewpoint) when individuals allow the virus to spread.
> 
> I hope that Debian does not organize any non-local physical meeting this
> year, although I am sad this has to happen.

I completely concur with what you and others have said. I don't think
it's in any way responsible to hold a presential conference in the
planned dates. I am happy to read in this thread that the local team
does not cling to the idea of hosting the conference in August; lets
see how life unfolds for the next ... months?

Note that we have *not* come to an official statement yet, but I'm
sure this thread has given a valuable insight on the feling of the
community.


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Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Wookey]

On 2020-05-23 05:46 +0800, Andrew Lee wrote:

> As crisis is turning point. According to everyone's feedback. I also believe 
> to
> have the conference in person is not the best option to fight together to the
> virus. And I also don't want our DebConf orga team's efforts to be wasted.
> 
> I believe orga team has done their best. We hope we all may work together to
> make this year as the first special DebConf ever with revolutionary 
> arrangement
> (online, VR/XR...etc) possible.

Large in-person conferences are not just a problem because of the
disease risk, but also because they are very high-carbon activities
that are increasingly difficult to justify. Lots of organisations have
discovered that they can do their meet-ups remotely recently, and I
think we should take this opportunity to see if we can too. We should
be better at this than most.

Experience in other organisations is that all-remote events
(i.e. where everyone is remote on the same footing) work a lot better
than mixed events where some people are remote and some are there
in-person. Obviously events where everyone are in-person work even
better, but that's clearly not going to happen this year however
things go, and has never been true anyway.

So I vote for working on a fully-remote conference this year, if only
by way of a trial-run. If it works reasonably well then maybe in
future we could have a full in-person conference every 3 or 4 years or
so, with remote ones being the annual norm (it would be a hell of a
lot easier to organise if nothing else). I realise that's pretty
radical, but events like debconf are a significant part of the
excessive emissions of many of us, and 2020 is clearly a year for a
rethink of many things. Lets not waste the opportunity to rethink
debconf.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Debian, Wookware, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Thomas Goirand]

On 5/22/20 11:11 AM, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:00:37AM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
>> I believe it's important to get those numbers somehow. Now, the
>> registration interface does not provide for anything like that - we
>> were preparing a survey in the last couple of days to get a better
>> look at said numbers, and we should be sending it out to everybody
>> soon; it will be important in the decision process.
> 
> I believe the poll being prepared misses a "we're in a global pandemic, please
> cancel this event" option.
> 
> I also believe organizing DebConf as an in person event in August 2020
> is endangering the participants *and* others, and if GRs were not
> such a pain (and a big hammer) I were pondering to have one for not
> organizing this in Debian's name.
> 
> I'm sorry but this is how I see things currently.

+1

I can't help to think about a disaster scenario where 100s of DDs attend
the event, get sick, some percents get in life danger, and another
percent dies...

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Andrew Lee]

Hello debian folks,

I believe everyone has been in a very complex feeling this year in many
ways. But we should all know that we should fight to the virus, not to the
oran team on yes or no to have DebConf registration or in person at the
moment.

Giovanni Mascellani  於 2020年5月22日 週五 下午9:51寫道：

> I am sorry for the organizing team, who for sure has poured a lot of
> energy and dedication into DebConf20. They deserve all our gratitude and
> they have all mine. I know it is disappointing to see their efforts
> wasted, but in the current situation I don't think it is responsible to
> physically meet from all over the world.


As crisis is turning point. According to everyone's feedback. I also
believe to have the conference in person is not the best option to fight
together to the virus. And I also don't want our DebConf orga team's
efforts to be wasted.

I believe orga team has done their best. We hope we all may work
together to make this year as the first special DebConf ever with
revolutionary arrangement(online, VR/XR...etc) possible.

And I believe the online C party would be super special with a lot of
things to share each other. And we might have a day trip to dig into some
source code of free software online.

In this way, Debian may demonstration how we can still make one of the
largest conference in world to be done in such a most fun way as DebConf's
tradition ever during the pandemic.

Let's look at the bright side, and I hope the orga team this year may have
some idea to make it in turn.

Best wishes,

-Andrew

Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Jana Pirat]

Am 22.05.20 um 15:51 schrieb Giovanni Mascellani:
> I hope that Debian does not organize any non-local physical meeting this
> year, although I am sad this has to happen.

i will be happy with any decision.
i would go if the situation would continue getting improving like now
(health, legal, travel). But of course it is a risk for all: for the
organizer as for the participants that the event has to be canceled in
short term.
I don't thing it will be possible to say on 08 of June how would be the
situation end of August. I would book my flight end of July depends of
situation and availability.

cheers
jana

Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Jon "maddog" Hall]

Hello,

One thing I have not seen discussed is the issue of quarantine after the
travel arrives, both coming and going.

In one country I have seen they test you on arrival, have you answer
questions, test you for the virus, then take you to a hotel room with an
ankle bracelet.  After twenty-four hours in the room you are told by phone
if you tested positive for the virus or not.   If you did not test positive
you are allowed to go somewhere else for a 14-day quarantine.   The country
paid for the 24-hour quarantine, but it was unclear who paid for the 14 day
isolation.

On the way back similar might happen, depending on your country.  If it is
similar than the two week Deb* effectively turns into a six week Deb*.

We do not know what will happen, but I do believe that it is way more
likely for the virus to "spike" in the next few months as it is to go
away.countries may change their immigration procedures.   Airlines may
change their policies on delayed or changed flights (or perhaps go out of
business).

A second point is that people going to Deb* may want to see something of
the country.  I have been to Israel and Palestine several times, to Haifa,
Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Bethlehem and other places.  It is a great place to
go.  Perhaps Israel will allow people to travel around inside the country
at this time, but again it is "iffy", and I almost guarantee it will not be
as easy or fun as it would be if the virus was under control.

If the conference is moved to 2021...shifted...then perhaps there will be a
vaccine or a treatment developed in the next year and most of this would go
away.   Certainly we would know a lot more about it by this time in 2021.

My suggestion would be to decide at this time to shift the conference to
2021, and use all efforts to make a virtual conference this year the best
it can be.  Because the conference this year would be virtual it does not
necessarily have to be in August and you can take your time to make sure
the mechanisms are set up to not only have a great virtual conference, but
one that has ongoing impact.

You could also have micro-conferences with the virtual conference as a hub
generating the materials for viewing.

Finally, for full disclosure I will mention that part of this is selfish.
 I have a lot of friends in Israel (and even in Haifa) that I was looking
forward to seeing for the first time in 15 years.  Since (due to the risk
group that I am in) I would not be able to safely (of course there is
always risk in doing anything, always) travel to Israel this year I would
not see them.  Assuming either a vaccine or very effective and available
testing it would be much less risky to travel in 2021.

In the end it is your conference.  I just wanted to share my thoughts.

Warmest regards,

maddog

P.S.  I wrote to the management of Campus Party Amazonia on February 17th
warning them of the virus since they were planning a 4000 person, week-long
conference starting March 27th.  On that day Brazil had its first confirmed
case of the virus in Sao Paulo.
On March 2nd they wrote back and said they were "watching it".   That day
the second case was confirmed in Rio de Janeiro.
On March 17th they canceled the conference.  There were 250 cases confirmed
in Brazil.
On March 27th there were thousands of cases, at least one thousand in the
city where the conference was to be held.
I like to think that I saved some lives with that email on February 17th.





On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 9:20 AM Jana Pirat  wrote:

> Hallo,
>
> Am 22.05.20 um 14:02 schrieb Andreas Metzler:
> > As I said I am lacking a broad worldwide view. But if you asked me
> > whether there was any chance of having something like Debconf in
> > Austria/Germany/Switzerland sometime in July or August, I would answer
> > "No" with 99.9% confidence.
>
> travelling inside Europe should be possible this summer, the boarders
> are planed to be opened by 15 of June.
> Of course the situation can change anytime.
> In my opinion we should use all possibilities to live and be free as
> much it is possible and given to us.
> stay optimistic.
> freedom not fear :-)
>
>
> Best regards
> jana
>
>

Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Christian Kastner]

On 2020-05-21 22:44, Daniel Lange wrote:
> As of now (May 21st), Israel seems to be on top of the situation.

I still intend to come (haven't cancelled my bookings yet), but as far
as I can tell, travel to Israel is still suspended until further notice,
at least for Austrians such as myself.

Do we have any news from local sources on when these restrictions will
be lifted? I couldn't fine any official sources in my (brief) only search.

Airports in Austria will open in June apparently, but without an open
destination, there is no point in departing.

Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Holger Levsen]

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 03:51:09PM +0200, Giovanni Mascellani wrote:
> Freedom is a right, but has to be used responsibly. The virus is still
> out there, people are still going to the hospital and to the cemetery
> because of it. We still lack proper treatments and vaccines, and as far
> as I know there are no strong results on acquired immunity yet. So, as
> soon as we resume exposing people to each other as before, numbers will
> start to grow again. A few places already had to reinstate confinement
> rules after removing them, because they realized that the spread was
> restarting as before.
> 
> I believe that it is good to allow some mobility, so that people can at
> least meet their families and close friends. It is a risk, but one that
> in some sense we need to take, in order to avoid other worse
> psychological damages. But meetings should remain as small as possible,
> and as geographically confined as possible. Organizing conferences with
> hundreds of people coming from all over the world is, in my opinion,
> irresponsible: you give the virus the best conditions to spread as much
> as possible, stirring different strains and defeating the acquired
> immunity different world regions might develop. Totally a bad idea, if
> you ask me, even if legally possible.
> 
> I am sorry for the organizing team, who for sure has poured a lot of
> energy and dedication into DebConf20. They deserve all our gratitude and
> they have all mine. I know it is disappointing to see their efforts
> wasted, but in the current situation I don't think it is responsible to
> physically meet from all over the world. It's not just about the risk
> each individual attendee would accept to take: it's the risk our whole
> communities take (particularly the vulnerable ones, from the health
> viewpoint) when individuals allow the virus to spread.
> 
> I hope that Debian does not organize any non-local physical meeting this
> year, although I am sad this has to happen.

+1 on everything, well said.

Sadly we should not let people organize a conference in our name, with our
funds, using our ressources at this time.

For those not following -vote@l.d.o: also see
https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20200522124055.ga255...@ftbfs.de


-- 
cheers,
Holger

---
   holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
   PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C


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Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Giovanni Mascellani]

Hi,

Il 22/05/20 15:19, Jana Pirat ha scritto:
> In my opinion we should use all possibilities to live and be free as
> much it is possible and given to us.
> stay optimistic.
> freedom not fear :-)

Freedom is a right, but has to be used responsibly. The virus is still
out there, people are still going to the hospital and to the cemetery
because of it. We still lack proper treatments and vaccines, and as far
as I know there are no strong results on acquired immunity yet. So, as
soon as we resume exposing people to each other as before, numbers will
start to grow again. A few places already had to reinstate confinement
rules after removing them, because they realized that the spread was
restarting as before.

I believe that it is good to allow some mobility, so that people can at
least meet their families and close friends. It is a risk, but one that
in some sense we need to take, in order to avoid other worse
psychological damages. But meetings should remain as small as possible,
and as geographically confined as possible. Organizing conferences with
hundreds of people coming from all over the world is, in my opinion,
irresponsible: you give the virus the best conditions to spread as much
as possible, stirring different strains and defeating the acquired
immunity different world regions might develop. Totally a bad idea, if
you ask me, even if legally possible.

I am sorry for the organizing team, who for sure has poured a lot of
energy and dedication into DebConf20. They deserve all our gratitude and
they have all mine. I know it is disappointing to see their efforts
wasted, but in the current situation I don't think it is responsible to
physically meet from all over the world. It's not just about the risk
each individual attendee would accept to take: it's the risk our whole
communities take (particularly the vulnerable ones, from the health
viewpoint) when individuals allow the virus to spread.

I hope that Debian does not organize any non-local physical meeting this
year, although I am sad this has to happen.

Giovanni.
-- 
Giovanni Mascellani 
Postdoc researcher - Université Libre de Bruxelles



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Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Jana Pirat]

Hallo,

Am 22.05.20 um 14:02 schrieb Andreas Metzler:
> As I said I am lacking a broad worldwide view. But if you asked me
> whether there was any chance of having something like Debconf in
> Austria/Germany/Switzerland sometime in July or August, I would answer
> "No" with 99.9% confidence.

travelling inside Europe should be possible this summer, the boarders
are planed to be opened by 15 of June.
Of course the situation can change anytime.
In my opinion we should use all possibilities to live and be free as
much it is possible and given to us.
stay optimistic.
freedom not fear :-)


Best regards
jana

Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Andreas Metzler]

On 2020-05-21 Daniel Lange  wrote:
> We are happy to announce that DebConf20 registration is now open!

> With the Covid-19 situation still rather fluid, we understand that
> everyone's plans for 2020 are not what you thought they were going
> to be when the year started. Sadly, DebConf20 is no exception.

> As of now (May 21st), Israel seems to be on top of the situation.
> Days with less than 10 new diagnosed infections are becoming common.
> Businesses and schools are slowly reopening. As such, we are hoping
> that, at least as far as regulations go, we will be able to hold an
> in-person conference. There is more (and up to date) information at the
> conference's FAQ [1].

> [1]: https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Faq

> Which means, barring a second wave, that there is reason to hope that
> the conference can go forward. Which is not the same as saying it
> _should_ move forward. For that we need your help.
[...]

Hello,

I am lacking a broad view but I think for pretty much all of
western/central Europa attendance is not going to be an option. Borders
are still closed and it is going to take another three weeks to just
open *some* _inner_ European borders (like between Germany and Austria,
where there has not been a good reason to keep them closed for at least
two weeks.)

As I said I am lacking a broad worldwide view. But if you asked me
whether there was any chance of having something like Debconf in
Austria/Germany/Switzerland sometime in July or August, I would answer
"No" with 99.9% confidence.

cu Andreas
-- 
`What a good friend you are to him, Dr. Maturin. His other friends are
so grateful to you.'
`I sew his ears on from time to time, sure'

Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Holger Levsen]

On Fri, May 22, 2020 at 12:00:37AM -0500, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> I believe it's important to get those numbers somehow. Now, the
> registration interface does not provide for anything like that - we
> were preparing a survey in the last couple of days to get a better
> look at said numbers, and we should be sending it out to everybody
> soon; it will be important in the decision process.

I believe the poll being prepared misses a "we're in a global pandemic, please
cancel this event" option.

I also believe organizing DebConf as an in person event in August 2020
is endangering the participants *and* others, and if GRs were not
such a pain (and a big hammer) I were pondering to have one for not
organizing this in Debian's name.

I'm sorry but this is how I see things currently.


-- 
cheers,
Holger

---
   holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
   PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C


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Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Gunnar Wolf]

Christoph Biedl dijo [Thu, May 21, 2020 at 11:20:17PM +0200]:
> Daniel Lange wrote...
> 
> > We need to know, assuming health regulations permit it, how many people
> > intend to attend. This year probably more than ever before, prompt
> > registration is very important to us.
> 
> Since you quite stress that, would it be of help for you I you get a
> "negative" registration as well? Then those who already know for sure
> they will *not* attend for whatever reason could make an according
> statement, and it might be a little easier to guess how many people will
> show up.

I believe it's important to get those numbers somehow. Now, the
registration interface does not provide for anything like that - we
were preparing a survey in the last couple of days to get a better
look at said numbers, and we should be sending it out to everybody
soon; it will be important in the decision process.

Thanks,


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Re: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Christoph Biedl]

Daniel Lange wrote...

> We need to know, assuming health regulations permit it, how many people
> intend to attend. This year probably more than ever before, prompt
> registration is very important to us.

Since you quite stress that, would it be of help for you I you get a
"negative" registration as well? Then those who already know for sure
they will *not* attend for whatever reason could make an according
statement, and it might be a little easier to guess how many people will
show up.

Regards,

Christoph


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Fwd: DebConf20 registration is now open (with caveats)

[Tzafrir Cohen]

We are happy to announce that DebConf20 registration is now open!!

With the Covid-19 still rather fluid, we understand that everyone's
plans for 2020 are not what you thought they were going to be when the
year started. Sadly, DebConf20 is no exception.

As of now (May 21st), Israel seems to be on top of the situation. Days
with less than 10 new diagnosed infections are becoming common.
Businesses and schools are slowly reopening. As such, we are hoping
that, at least as far as regulations go, we will be able to hold an
in-person conference. There is more (and up to date) information at the
conference's FAQ [1].

[1]: https://wiki.debian.org/DebConf/20/Faq

Which means, barring a second wave, that there is reason to hope that
the conference can go forward. Which is not the same as saying it
_should_ move forward. For that we need your help.

We need to know, assuming health regulations permit it, how many people
intend to attend. This year probably more than ever before, prompt
registration is very important to us.

If you feel that the only thing you want to do is lay low, we understand
completely. All we ask is that you do _not_ register. Conversely, if
after months of staying at home you feel that rubbing elbows with fellow
Debian Developers is precisely the remedy that will salvage 2020, then
we ask that you _do_ register as soon as possible.

Sadly, things are still not clear enough for us to make a final and
binding commitment to holding an in-person conference this year, but
knowing how many people intend to attend will be a great help in making
that decision.

With that addressed, and assuming we clear all the hurdles, DebConf20
will take place from August 23rd to 29th, 2020 at the University of
Haifa, in Israel, and will be preceded by DebCamp, from August 16th to 22nd.

To register for DebConf20, please visit our website at
https://debconf20.debconf.org/register

To request bursaries (sponsorship) for food, accommodation, or travel,
you must be registered by Sunday, May 31st 2020. After this date, new
bursary applications won’t be considered.

Participation to DebConf20 is conditional to your respect of our Code of
Conduct [0]. We require you to read, understand and abide by this code.

[0]: 

This year more than ever, even if you are not certain you will be able
to attend, we recommend
registering now. You can always edit or cancel your registration, but
please make it final before 26 July 2020. We cannot guarantee
availability of accommodation, catering or swag for unconfirmed
registrations.

We do suggest that attendees begin making travel arrangements as soon as
possible, of course. Please bear in mind that most air carriers allow
free cancellations and changes.

Any questions about registrations should be addressed to
.

-- Tzafrir, for the DebConf20 team