Re: Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 08:30:27PM +0530, shirish शिरीष wrote:
> I was afraid of the accents and fast-talk of some people while other
> people whose first language was not English were easier to understand
> as they took time to organize and deliver their questions not just in
> Q&A but also afterwards.

Regardless of whether Q&A is problematic for a first-time speaker, this
*is* a problem, and not just for first-time speakers. Some people in
Debian are native speakers, some aren't. Some non-native people in
Debian have a good grasp of the English language, but their accent is
horrible to the point that it's almost incomprehensible at times. And
some people just don't speak English very well, and will have a problem
understanding anyone who doesn't speak their native language no matter
what.

As such, even if my grasp of English is near-native, I have on occasion
had trouble understanding someone at DebConf, simply because of the
language barrier.

When doing emails, this isn't really a problem, since you can re-read
the mail and use a dictionary if you need to. Not so in live speech.
Given that background, IME it's not usually the case that people will be
offended if you ask them to repeat what they said, or to speak a bit
slower, or something along those lines, but this may be something that
first-time attendees and/or first-time speakers may not be aware of.

How about we create a page specifically for first-time attendees and
people who would like to speak at DebConf, where we state something
along the lines of the following:

- While English is the language expected for official events (talks,
  BoFs, etc), apart from that it's perfectly okay for participants to
  use other languages too.
- If you have trouble understanding someone due to language barriers or
  your own limited understanding of the language in use, it's okay to
  ask the speaker to clarify.
- While in the spirit of cooperation we encourage speakers to allow a
  short Q&A session after the end of their talk, there may be some
  subject matters where such a session would not contribute much to the
  Debian community as a whole; in such case, it's fine to skip it.
  Audience members considering to ask a question should remember to ask
  it in a non-adversarial manner, respecting the dignity of the speaker
  and the community as a whole.

This may be part of the DebConf CoC if people think it reasonable?

-- 
Could you people please use IRC like normal people?!?

  -- Amaya Rodrigo Sastre, trying to quiet down the buzz in the DebConf 2008
 Hacklab

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Ralf Treinen]

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 04:11:29PM +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:
> Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> 
> > I'm all for encouraging first-time speakers, but Q&A at the end of a
> > session are valuable too; as such, to me, outlawing Q&A is a bit like
> > throwing the kid out with the bathwater.
> 
> Just to be clear, I would agree with this and am not even strongly
> advocating the weaker proposal of permitting it to be optional on a
> per-talk basis.

Maybe it would help if a speaker could ask explicitely to have a
chairperson who will act as a moderator if necessary? This is less
visible than just not allowing for questions at all. And knowing to
have a moderator by your side (figuratively speaking) is certainly 
reassuring.

-Ralf.

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Lucas Nussbaum]

On 08/09/18 at 11:11 +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:
> Anyway, whilst I am in no way suggesting DebConf takes an identical
> approach (!!), I would be curious to know whether if we are missing any
> new contributions this way.

I fully agree that Q&A are very important at DebConf.

However, I wonder if we could improve our "culture" around asking
questions during talks, by making it clear that we do not welcome using
questions to attack a (possibly) inexperienced speaker. Maybe just
writing this up properly (maybe in the CoC?) and advertising this could
help reduce the fear of Q&A?

In general, I think that we are doing a decent job of knowing which
questions are appropriate and which aren't. (I can only remember one talk
(at DC8) where someone in the audience was asking totally inappropriate
questions, but it was not someone I would qualify as from the Debian
community, and I think that the audience made it clear that this was not
welcomed behaviour). But it might not be obvious for first timers.

Lucas

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Chris Lamb]

Wouter Verhelst wrote:

> I'm all for encouraging first-time speakers, but Q&A at the end of a
> session are valuable too; as such, to me, outlawing Q&A is a bit like
> throwing the kid out with the bathwater.

Just to be clear, I would agree with this and am not even strongly
advocating the weaker proposal of permitting it to be optional on a
per-talk basis.

I started this thread — forwarding Eric's idea — only because I found
it a rather startling philosophy and was interested to know what others
thought of it. Apologies to all if, like a similar thread, this angle
was ambiguous.


Regards,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Sat, Sep 08, 2018 at 04:40:38PM +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:
> Hi Samuel,
> 
> > > About embarrassing behaviour from the audience: First, this barely ever
> > > happens, [...]
> > 
> > I completely agree this all of this, and that's what I explain to our
> > PhD students. But them actually believing it is another matter.
> 
> There is a huge gap between "what I think speaking at a conference
> might be like" (ie. insane levels of nerves, you're picked apart on
> every word you say, you will be heckled, nobody will like you,
> questions will be hostile, professional reputations are easily ruined,
> totally not for me, etc) ... and what it /actually/ is like to speak
> (ie. nerve-inducing for sure, but actually not too awful at the end of
> the day).

I can't help but wonder whether "we don't allow Q&A" is *actually* going
to encourage first-time speakers. Although it's quite a while ago by
now, I believe the nerves I felt the first time I was going to speak in
front of an audience had nothing to do with the Q&A, but more with
things like "aren't they going to laugh at me?!?"

I'm all for encouraging first-time speakers, but Q&A at the end of a
session are valuable too; as such, to me, outlawing Q&A is a bit like
throwing the kid out with the bathwater.

-- 
Could you people please use IRC like normal people?!?

  -- Amaya Rodrigo Sastre, trying to quiet down the buzz in the DebConf 2008
 Hacklab

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Norbert Preining]

>"Talks should be either 30 minutes long plus 10 minutes for questions
>and answers or 45 minutes long plus 15 minutes for questions and
>answers."
>
>QA been mandatory, is it a problem?

I would say very normal and standard procedure. Has been like this in most 
conferences I have attended.

Norbert


--
PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Hi,

I was reading 35c3 CfP [1] and I saw this:

"Talks should be either 30 minutes long plus 10 minutes for questions and 
answers or 45 minutes long plus 15 minutes for questions and answers."

QA been mandatory, is it a problem?

[1] 
https://events.ccc.de/2018/09/11/35c3-call-for-participation-and-submission-guidelines/

-- 
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Curitiba - Brasil
Membro da Comunidade Curitiba Livre
Site: http://www.phls.com.br
GNU/Linux user: 228719  GPG ID: 0443C450

Apoie a campanha pela igualdade de gênero #HeForShe (#ElesPorElas)  
http://www.heforshe.org/pt

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦ 12 septembre 2018 13:13 +0100, Ian Jackson :

>> I don't suggest to change anything for Debconf, I am just bad at
>> conferencing.
>
> I think you would probably have interesting things to say.  I would
> like it if you felt able to give a talk, so I am keen that we remove
> the barriers that are stopping you.
>
> Please contribute vigorously to this discussion; or, if you prefer,
> email Chris privately (sorry for volunteering you, Chris).

The option of not having a Q&A would not help, it would signal your talk
is special and you don't care about contributions (I suppose that's why
people implementing that in other confs don't make it as an option). The
ability to have a system with written questions would definitely solve
my issue.
-- 
My only love sprung from my only hate!
Too early seen unknown, and known too late!
-- William Shakespeare, "Romeo and Juliet"


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Ian Jackson]

Vincent Bernat writes ("Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)"):
> I don't speak in front of large audiences because of the Q&A part.

That is a shame.  Thank you very much for sharing.

> I don't suggest to change anything for Debconf, I am just bad at
> conferencing.

I think you would probably have interesting things to say.  I would
like it if you felt able to give a talk, so I am keen that we remove
the barriers that are stopping you.

Please contribute vigorously to this discussion; or, if you prefer,
email Chris privately (sorry for volunteering you, Chris).

Regards,
Ian.

-- 
Ian JacksonThese opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Ian Jackson]

Samuel Thibault writes ("Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)"):
> Matthew Vernon, le sam. 08 sept. 2018 15:41:14 +0100, a ecrit:
> > Moderators happy/able to cut people off who aren't really
> > asking a question seems a better solution than banning all questions.
> 
> But the speaker can not be sure that it will happen.

Indeed.

I can definitely see that this is very plausibly a problem (although I
haven't read research or even spoken personally to speakers who are
worried about this).

I am very keen that we should fully support speakers who are not so
sure of themselves.  Those people often have the most interesting
things to say and we need to give them the space, encouragement, and
structure things to minimise this kind of worry.

What this certainly means is that we must provide different support
and perhaps a different approach for different speakers in different
contexts.

I don't know how best to ask the question of a speaker, what kind of
support they need, but certainly the conference management system is
an opportunity to do that.  Also we could publicly state, in our CFP
for example, what our plans will be - so that people can be confident
that they will be welcomed and supported.

Ian.

-- 
Ian JacksonThese opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Ian Jackson]

Chris Lamb writes ("Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)"):
> I noticed yesterday [0] that the PyCascades conference [1] explicitly
> does not permit any questions and answers after a presentation.

This is interesting.


As an audience member I have sometimes found myself intensely
irritated when (it seems to me that) a questioner is wasting
everyone's time with some incomprehensible polemic, or whatever.

Often when this happens I feel the speaker does not shut them down
quickly enough.  I think the speaker is perhaps not always sure enough
of their ground to do so.

I think this could be addressed by having a moderator who was prepared
to make a value judgement about the question, and who had a low
threshold for intervening.

In general I often find that stronger moderation (of audience
participation in talks and panels, and of airtime in BOFs) is a good
thing.


However, I would be very sad to see questions banned entirely.

Some of my best experiences at DC18 were related to questions.  Talks
with small audiences or in small rooms often turn in a kind of BOF
session which can be both very useful, and very affirming for
everyone.

And speaking entirely personally: When giving a talk, especially about
new software or anything complicated, i find it can be very helpful to
be interrupted if I have skipped over something.  I'm aware of the
questioner self-selection problem.  I don't feel unsure, so I don't
need help from a moderator in managing the questions I might get :-).

Overall, perhaps we could ensure that we have a moderators available,
certainly for the larger rooms, and also whenever the speaker requests
it.

The moderator could have a quick chat with the speaker about how much
support they want, whether the speaker wants to take questions during
the talk, at the end, or not at all, etc.  Ideally moderators would
have been exposed to some kind of training or at least briefing.


The "go up to the stage afterwards" format for questions is a good one
too, though.  Certainly it should be offered to speakers, and
sometimes even recommended.  Speakers should certainly not feel that
they are expected to take questions in the standard "talk to the whole
room" format, if they feel intimidated by that idea.

I think, the bigger the room, the more appropriate it is to use the
"chat up at the stage" format.


Another possibility would be for the moderator to use the per-room irc
channel to collect people who want to ask questions.  That is, people
would state their question in irc, and the moderator would tell, again
in irc, who the next person is to ask a question.  So the moderator
could choose the best questions.

Ian.

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Cathy Nonet]

Le 11/09/2018 à 05:00, shirish शिरीष a écrit :
> Reply in-line :-
>
> On 10/09/2018, Sicelo  wrote:
>> I would like to add my humble point of view on this issue ...
>>
>> Background: first time attendee & speaker at DebConf16
>>
> I went through the same situation myself in Debconf16 .
>
> When I had given my proposal for the talk I wasn't prepared it to be the first
> talk to Debconf and that too close to lunch-time in.  My talk was
> geared mostly towards
> people who were just beginning to get into FOSS and would have been
> more to the motivational side of things, but when faced with experienced DD's
> changed the talk to something they probably hadn't known about, how India
> experienced Internet and vice-versa which was a very different topic then
> what I had prepared.
>
> I did say as much in the beginning as well as there was
> no point in denying the truth. This was in a hugeish auditorium as well.
>
> I felt very much like a fraudster
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
> which when talking with people especially those who were new at giving talks 
> at
> Debconf also felt the same thing.
>
> I dunno whether it would be a good idea or not but I feel it might be better
> if the first few talks are given by Debconf regulars and then newbies
> are given in.
>
> I did make slides after the 'talk' but was absolutely petrified of Q&A
> because -
>
> a. I am a bit hard of hearing (90% deaf in left ear and some loss of
> hearing on the right ear as well.)
>
> b. I was afraid of the accents and fast-talk of some people while
> other people whose first language was not English were easier to
> understand as they took time to organize and deliver their questions
> not just in Q&A but also afterwards. That made for some more rewarding
> experiences for me personally.
>
> One idea or suggestion (probably unworkable though, I dunno) might be
> to have a community kitchen, woodworking, singing, drum/djembe
> workshops etc. during Debconf some activity besides the wine & cheese
> activity would be a good idea to get to know the community in a
> non-threatening manner. I have been lucky enough to be able to attend
> sessions such as the ones outlined above and fount it to be more
> participative as well.
>
> Personally it would have been nice if there was a vegetarian cooking
> scene in Debconf 2016 so we could get ingredients for a recipe/s and
> do the slicing and cooking therein.
> I hope something like that could be done for the 2019 debconf.

You can always volonteer to cut the cheese for the cheese & wine party.
Also, volonteering for any task (videoteam, food, beertender,
frontdesk...) is a nice way to meet people, trust me !


CathylafourmiCheeseMaster

Re: Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[shirish शिरीष]

Reply in-line :-

On 10/09/2018, Sicelo  wrote:
> I would like to add my humble point of view on this issue ...
>
> Background: first time attendee & speaker at DebConf16
>

I went through the same situation myself in Debconf16 .

When I had given my proposal for the talk I wasn't prepared it to be the first
talk to Debconf and that too close to lunch-time in.  My talk was
geared mostly towards
people who were just beginning to get into FOSS and would have been
more to the motivational side of things, but when faced with experienced DD's
changed the talk to something they probably hadn't known about, how India
experienced Internet and vice-versa which was a very different topic then
what I had prepared.

I did say as much in the beginning as well as there was
no point in denying the truth. This was in a hugeish auditorium as well.

I felt very much like a fraudster
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome
which when talking with people especially those who were new at giving talks at
Debconf also felt the same thing.

I dunno whether it would be a good idea or not but I feel it might be better
if the first few talks are given by Debconf regulars and then newbies
are given in.

I did make slides after the 'talk' but was absolutely petrified of Q&A
because -

a. I am a bit hard of hearing (90% deaf in left ear and some loss of
hearing on the right ear as well.)

b. I was afraid of the accents and fast-talk of some people while
other people whose first language was not English were easier to
understand as they took time to organize and deliver their questions
not just in Q&A but also afterwards. That made for some more rewarding
experiences for me personally.

One idea or suggestion (probably unworkable though, I dunno) might be
to have a community kitchen, woodworking, singing, drum/djembe
workshops etc. during Debconf some activity besides the wine & cheese
activity would be a good idea to get to know the community in a
non-threatening manner. I have been lucky enough to be able to attend
sessions such as the ones outlined above and fount it to be more
participative as well.

Personally it would have been nice if there was a vegetarian cooking
scene in Debconf 2016 so we could get ingredients for a recipe/s and
do the slicing and cooking therein.
I hope something like that could be done for the 2019 debconf.

I do understand the constraints of having 200+ people doing any one
activity but if small groups were there it would have more feel of a
community as well.


>
> Just my two cents
> Sicelo
>


-- 
  Regards,
  Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
  My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
http://flossexperiences.wordpress.com
EB80 462B 08E1 A0DE A73A  2C2F 9F3D C7A4 E1C4 D2D8

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Hi,

- Mensagem original -
> De: "Gunnar Wolf" 
> 
> Way too many years ago, a bright and gentle woman took care to address
> new speakers at the beginning of DebConf. Although by 2006 I had
> already been public-speaking for ~7 years, I have watched her talk
> maybe a dozen times. Everybody should do the same. And, quite
> probably, Meike's points should be brought again today to our
> speakers, old and new - Be it by explicitly inviting her (she is an
> Emeritus DD) or by having somebody adopt her talk.
> 
> 
> https://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2006/debconf6/theora-unscaled/2006-05-19/tower/Cheap_thrills_Instant_inspiration_for_the_masses-Meike_Reichle.ogg

Thanks, I watched and it's really nice.

Ah, DebConf video recording is much better nowadays :-)

Best regards,

-- 
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Curitiba - Brasil
Membro da Comunidade Curitiba Livre
Site: http://www.phls.com.br
GNU/Linux user: 228719  GPG ID: 0443C450

Apoie a campanha pela igualdade de gênero #HeForShe (#ElesPorElas)  
http://www.heforshe.org/pt

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Philip Hands]

Norbert Preining  writes:

> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
>> > My suggestion is as follows:
>> > * anyone can send questions for that specific talk (anonymously or
>> > not) by accessing an url
>> > * other people can upvote/downvote the question as the talk is going
>> > * the speaker has an online dashboard where they can see the most
>> > upvoted questions and answer the ones they would like to (if the
>> > speaker agreed to answer questions after the talk)[1]
>> 
>> I really disliked the voting part of this tool, though. I don't want
>> people to refrain from asking something because they think they will
>> be downvoted.
>
> I agree with that. The above proposal sounds like the perfect way to
> shut down questions at all.

Did you actually see the talk[1]?

  https://debconf18.debconf.org/talks/135-q-a-session-with-minister-tang/

People queuing at a microphone would have been a very poor substitute
IMO.

Perhaps it was more about Minister Tang's style, and the fact that she
answered the first question very soon after the start of the talk which
will have encouraged more to sign onto the site, but it really seemed to
work for that talk.

There were clearly more than enough questions.

Then again, it was a good talk by an experienced speaker, so perhaps for
other speakers it would be a horrible distraction to be looking for
questions somehow.

Having the option of both approaches seems like an improvement.

The main down-side I can think of is that one needs some tech to ask a
question, rather than just grabbing a mike.

On the other hand, it greatly improves the ability of people watching
the stream remotely to get involved in the talk.

One might complain that it allows the speaker to ignore questions they
don't like, but the times when Q&A seems to really go badly are when the
questioner is either incomprehensible and won't shut up, or is
antagonistic and is asking the question mostly to indulge in some
(tedious and irrelevant) rant, both of which would be neatly filtered
out by this approach (both by not getting upvotes, but also because the
speaker can just quietly ignore questions if they prefer).

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Norbert Preining]

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018, Samuel Henrique wrote:
> The times when I saw the "please don't go to the mic if it's not a
> question" was when there were women speaking, and I think I understand
> why they would want that and I'm ok with it*. But yes, It shouldn't be

I'm not. Treating women differently is not something I support. Why
should women get a different treatment in this case? 

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert   http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Russ Allbery]

Josh Triplett  writes:
> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 09:54:04AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018, Steve McIntyre wrote:

>>> DebConf. I'd *never* describe DebConf Q&A as "an open mic pedantry
>>> slam", from many years of experience. I'm used to people asking

>> +1
>> 25 years of attending conferences I have never seen an "open mic
>> pedantry slam".

> The vast majority of conferences I go to, I've heard *at least* one
> non-question question.

> A good moderator can help address that (you can get halfway there by
> just reminding people "ask questions, don't make statements or comments;
> make sure your question benefits the whole room".

I don't think non-question questions are inherently the problem.  Some of
those are pretty good.  It's more the "not a question, more of a comment"
sort of a question where the "questioner" starts to give a little talk of
their own on some topic vaguely related to the talk.  Those can be pretty
bad; often they're a waste of everyone else's time, and at worst they can
be really condescending and hostile.

That said, I don't personally recall hearing one of those at DebConf.
I've probably missed some, but DebConf also has some really high-quality
post-talk discussion.  It also allows people like me who loathe preparing
for talks run super-informal "talks" that mostly involve free-form riffing
on whatever the audience wants to talk about in some problem area and
turning it into a general discussion, which is kind of amazing (although
certainly not always appropriate) and some of my favorite moments at
DebConf.

If any of our presenters would like no Q&A as an option, I'm all in favor,
of course.  I totally understand the problem of not understanding English
well, since I have really struggled with questions after a talk because my
hearing isn't great and I struggle with non-US accents (including UK and
Australian accents; it's not about not being a native speaker).  But I do
wonder if this is addressing a problem that we don't have to the same
degree in DebConf because we have such a collaborative project and talks
feel more like a semi-formal start to a conversation, sort of like a long
and well-thought-out message to debian-devel.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Samuel Henrique]

> My opinion is that a speaker should be able to ask people to just do
> questions on the mic if they want to.
should be able to ask people to stick to questions only, if they want to*

-- 
Samuel Henrique 

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Samuel Henrique]

> > The times when I saw the "please don't go to the mic if it's not a
> > question" was when there were women speaking, and I think I understand
> > why they would want that and I'm ok with it*. But yes, It shouldn't be
>
> I'm not. Treating women differently is not something I support. Why
> should women get a different treatment in this case?

On this case, because they want to, but the discussion goes more deep
than this, the point I believe is that making this it ends up actually
being equal to a male speaker. But I not the one to discuss that.
My opinion is that a speaker should be able to ask people to just do
questions on the mic if they want to.

-- 
Samuel Henrique 

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Samuel Henrique]

> > A good moderator can help address that (you can get halfway there by
> > just reminding people "ask questions, don't make statements or comments;
> > make sure your question benefits the whole room".
>
> That is a very strange point! I am more than grateful for comments that
> are NOT questions, pointing me to different work, previous work, other
> approaches, failures.

I'm also very welcoming to other things that aren't questions, they
are usually good points and I get to comment on that after if I want
to.

> What is the point of restricting one to questions? I mean, yes, one can
> rephrase everything as a question:
> "What is your work's relation to ?"
> but that's not the point.
>
> Why only questions are considered good and comments/remarks not is
> something that escapes my understanding - and experience - completely.

The times when I saw the "please don't go to the mic if it's not a
question" was when there were women speaking, and I think I understand
why they would want that and I'm ok with it*. But yes, It shouldn't be
a general rule, just if the speaker want to (but I don't think anybody
suggested being a general rule anyway).

* Not that I'm ok only with this specific case, I'm trying to give an
example on why somebody would not want non-questions and why this
wasn't a general case.

-- 
Samuel Henrique 

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Norbert Preining]

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018, Josh Triplett wrote:
> A good moderator can help address that (you can get halfway there by
> just reminding people "ask questions, don't make statements or comments;
> make sure your question benefits the whole room".

That is a very strange point! I am more than grateful for comments that
are NOT questions, pointing me to different work, previous work, other
approaches, failures.

What is the point of restricting one to questions? I mean, yes, one can
rephrase everything as a question:
"What is your work's relation to ?"
but that's not the point.

Why only questions are considered good and comments/remarks not is
something that escapes my understanding - and experience - completely.

Best

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert   http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Josh Triplett wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 09:54:04AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018, Steve McIntyre wrote:
>> > DebConf. I'd *never* describe DebConf Q&A as "an open mic pedantry
>> > slam", from many years of experience. I'm used to people asking
>>
>> +1
>> 25 years of attending conferences I have never seen an "open mic
>> pedantry slam".

I often find myself cringing/etc during the questions section of DebConf talks.

> The vast majority of conferences I go to, I've heard *at least* one
> non-question question.

These are a very common occurrence at DebConf.

> A good moderator can help address that (you can get halfway there by
> just reminding people "ask questions, don't make statements or comments;
> make sure your question benefits the whole room".

In one DebConf talk I remember, one commenter was prevented from
commenting but the next person in line said they had a question but
then proceeded to make a comment instead. The talk was well moderated
by the speakers but in the end it did not help.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Josh Triplett]

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 09:54:04AM +0900, Norbert Preining wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Sep 2018, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> > DebConf. I'd *never* describe DebConf Q&A as "an open mic pedantry
> > slam", from many years of experience. I'm used to people asking
> 
> +1
> 25 years of attending conferences I have never seen an "open mic
> pedantry slam".

The vast majority of conferences I go to, I've heard *at least* one
non-question question.

A good moderator can help address that (you can get halfway there by
just reminding people "ask questions, don't make statements or comments;
make sure your question benefits the whole room".

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Norbert Preining]

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018, Steve McIntyre wrote:
> DebConf. I'd *never* describe DebConf Q&A as "an open mic pedantry
> slam", from many years of experience. I'm used to people asking

+1
25 years of attending conferences I have never seen an "open mic
pedantry slam".

Aren't we creating a dragon from a little mouse? 

Best

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert   http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Norbert Preining]

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > My suggestion is as follows:
> > * anyone can send questions for that specific talk (anonymously or
> > not) by accessing an url
> > * other people can upvote/downvote the question as the talk is going
> > * the speaker has an online dashboard where they can see the most
> > upvoted questions and answer the ones they would like to (if the
> > speaker agreed to answer questions after the talk)[1]
> 
> I really disliked the voting part of this tool, though. I don't want
> people to refrain from asking something because they think they will
> be downvoted.

I agree with that. The above proposal sounds like the perfect way to
shut down questions at all.

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert   http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Gunnar Wolf]

Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana dijo [Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 11:32:57AM -0300]:
> > I too started off as an absolutely terrified public speaker, and the
> > Q&As were especially nerve racking. I should note that DebConf in
> > particular was especially intimidating, not due to anything related to
> > the format of the conference but to how knowledgeable (and opinionated)
> > the average attendee is. I think one way we could overcome this is by
> > having some tips for first time speakers, or an optional orientation
> > session at the conference for new speakers. For example, the tips could
> > include some of the things mentioned here already, like how you can
> > speak for the entire time so there's none left for questions (while
> > stressing that it's important to practice your talk so that you have
> > confidence about its length), ways to handle questions that are not
> > really questions but comments, how to handle it if you don't understand
> > the question because you don't understand the accent of the asker, etc.
> > 
> > I also have found it really helpful when conferences train session
> > volunteers to not just manage the microphone and make sure the video is
> > running but to actually moderate Q&A, shutting down pedantic commentary
> > and helping to focus on respectful questions, setting the speaker up to
> > really share their knowledge in a lower stress way.
> 
> I believe it's a good ideia write some kind of manual on the DC19
> website before the CfP.  Maybe after read that, someone that was not
> thinking to send a proposal, can feel motivated and send it.

Way too many years ago, a bright and gentle woman took care to address
new speakers at the beginning of DebConf. Although by 2006 I had
already been public-speaking for ~7 years, I have watched her talk
maybe a dozen times. Everybody should do the same. And, quite
probably, Meike's points should be brought again today to our
speakers, old and new - Be it by explicitly inviting her (she is an
Emeritus DD) or by having somebody adopt her talk.


https://ftp.acc.umu.se/pub/debian-meetings/2006/debconf6/theora-unscaled/2006-05-19/tower/Cheap_thrills_Instant_inspiration_for_the_masses-Meike_Reichle.ogg

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Bdale Garbee]

Gunnar Wolf  writes:

> I really disliked the voting part of this tool, though. I don't want
> people to refrain from asking something because they think they will
> be downvoted.

I like the idea of people being able to "up vote" to indicate that a
question already asked is one they'd like to hear the answer to also.
The alternative to that is many similar-ish questions being asked and
the speaker having to parse the list in real time to figure out what to
answer... it's a lot easier to just take the ones off the top, skipping
any you really aren't prepared to handle.

Bdale


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Gunnar Wolf]

Samuel Henrique dijo [Sat, Sep 08, 2018 at 02:47:15PM -0300]:
> For the speaker side, I saw a really good solution being used at this
> year's DC by Audrey Tang[0], I think it is a non-free service, but it
> should be something really easy to implement it for ourselves.

Yes, looks like an interesting approach. It will also help people who
want to ask and don't want to be on video.

> My suggestion is as follows:
> * anyone can send questions for that specific talk (anonymously or
> not) by accessing an url
> * other people can upvote/downvote the question as the talk is going
> * the speaker has an online dashboard where they can see the most
> upvoted questions and answer the ones they would like to (if the
> speaker agreed to answer questions after the talk)[1]

I really disliked the voting part of this tool, though. I don't want
people to refrain from asking something because they think they will
be downvoted.

> Benefits:
> * people watching it live can send questions
> * can send questions anonymously
> * there will be no room for listening difficulties (accents, speaking
> too fast, etc.)
> * speaker answer the ones they are comfortable with
> * questions can be well made as there will be no anxiety of speaking
> on mic (for some people)

The first point you mention is very interesting, and I'll repeat it:
"Watching it live" does not necessarily mean watching it from the
auditorium. People following IRC would be interacting just as the rest
of the room are.

Then again... Many people (as speakers) will not like this interaction
mode. I found it too stiff, and at times, somewhat demanding /
breaking the natural flow of the presenter. Yes, this could very well
be a tool under DebConf's belt, to be offered to the speakers, but I
would not make it mandatory not to have "voiced" QA.

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Gunnar Wolf]

Jonathan Carter dijo [Sat, Sep 08, 2018 at 07:18:16PM +0200]:
> I think ultimately, this should be up to the individual speaker for
> every talk. At some sessions where I was talkmeister, I told the speaker
> that their allotted time includes their question time and some have told
> me that they won't be taking questions. They've also gone another step
> further and mentioned at the beginning of the talk that they have lots
> to go through and how to get in touch if anyone has feedback.
> 
> As for the logic behind "No live Q&A after talks makes it a more
> friendly environment", I find that somewhat flawed. By that rationale we
> can also just stop having conferences because that will help reduce
> harassment. Questions can sometimes contribute largely to making a talk
> interesting, but they're by no means compulsory for speakers at DebConf
> and I believe that the status quo on this is just fine.

I completely support this statement. We can _explicitly allow_ people
to choose not to take questions; some people will feel that makes them
seem aggressive and still won't present in front of the audience
because they don't want to seem rude.

Many times, and even in talk sessions (not BoFs), some of the QA
interaction have been more enlightening than the talk itself.

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana]

Hi,

- Mensagem original -
> De: "Karen Sandler" 
> 
> I too started off as an absolutely terrified public speaker, and the
> Q&As were especially nerve racking. I should note that DebConf in
> particular was especially intimidating, not due to anything related to
> the format of the conference but to how knowledgeable (and opinionated)
> the average attendee is. I think one way we could overcome this is by
> having some tips for first time speakers, or an optional orientation
> session at the conference for new speakers. For example, the tips could
> include some of the things mentioned here already, like how you can
> speak for the entire time so there's none left for questions (while
> stressing that it's important to practice your talk so that you have
> confidence about its length), ways to handle questions that are not
> really questions but comments, how to handle it if you don't understand
> the question because you don't understand the accent of the asker, etc.
> 
> I also have found it really helpful when conferences train session
> volunteers to not just manage the microphone and make sure the video is
> running but to actually moderate Q&A, shutting down pedantic commentary
> and helping to focus on respectful questions, setting the speaker up to
> really share their knowledge in a lower stress way.

I believe it's a good ideia write some kind of manual on the DC19 website 
before the CfP.
Maybe after read that, someone that was not thinking to send a proposal, can 
feel motivated and send it.


-- 
Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana (phls)
Curitiba - Brasil
Membro da Comunidade Curitiba Livre
Site: http://www.phls.com.br
GNU/Linux user: 228719  GPG ID: 0443C450

Apoie a campanha pela igualdade de gênero #HeForShe (#ElesPorElas)  
http://www.heforshe.org/pt

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Karen Sandler]

On 2018-09-10 09:56, Steve McIntyre wrote:

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 10:49:47AM +0200, Michael Prokop wrote:

...

Or to quote Gary, from
https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/989998209123536896:

| who in hell called it conference talk Q&A and not an open mic 
pedantry slam


And this is exactly what makes me wonder if the other confs referred
to are very different (in style, or feel, or attendees) to
DebConf. I'd *never* describe DebConf Q&A as "an open mic pedantry
slam", from many years of experience. I'm used to people asking
reasonable clarifying questions of a speaker. Either what's happening
at these other events is massively different, or this author is
massively exaggerating their perceived problem. :-(

I started off as a *really* nervous public speaker, petrified of
standing up in front of an audience and making a fool of
myself. Talking to supportive audiences like DebConf helped me a lot
to get over that, and that includes conversations started in Q&Q.


I too started off as an absolutely terrified public speaker, and the 
Q&As were especially nerve racking. I should note that DebConf in 
particular was especially intimidating, not due to anything related to 
the format of the conference but to how knowledgeable (and opinionated) 
the average attendee is. I think one way we could overcome this is by 
having some tips for first time speakers, or an optional orientation 
session at the conference for new speakers. For example, the tips could 
include some of the things mentioned here already, like how you can 
speak for the entire time so there's none left for questions (while 
stressing that it's important to practice your talk so that you have 
confidence about its length), ways to handle questions that are not 
really questions but comments, how to handle it if you don't understand 
the question because you don't understand the accent of the asker, etc.


I also have found it really helpful when conferences train session 
volunteers to not just manage the microphone and make sure the video is 
running but to actually moderate Q&A, shutting down pedantic commentary 
and helping to focus on respectful questions, setting the speaker up to 
really share their knowledge in a lower stress way.


karen

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Steve McIntyre]

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 10:49:47AM +0200, Michael Prokop wrote:

...

>Or to quote Gary, from
>https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/989998209123536896:
>
>| who in hell called it conference talk Q&A and not an open mic pedantry slam

And this is exactly what makes me wonder if the other confs referred
to are very different (in style, or feel, or attendees) to
DebConf. I'd *never* describe DebConf Q&A as "an open mic pedantry
slam", from many years of experience. I'm used to people asking
reasonable clarifying questions of a speaker. Either what's happening
at these other events is massively different, or this author is
massively exaggerating their perceived problem. :-(

I started off as a *really* nervous public speaker, petrified of
standing up in front of an audience and making a fool of
myself. Talking to supportive audiences like DebConf helped me a lot
to get over that, and that includes conversations started in Q&Q.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
  Mature Sporty Personal
  More Innovation More Adult
  A Man in Dandism
  Powered Midship Specialty

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Max Harmathy]

Hi,

I had my first talk at DebConf18 and I found it very helpful to have
questions during the talk. It even led to a fullow-up BoF session.

While I appreciate the effort to make conferences a comfortable to
newcomers as possible, we should not loose focus on the content of the
talks. After all we are coming together to interact with each other and
discuss on a technical level.

Max



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Michael Prokop]

* Chris Lamb [Sat Sep 08, 2018 at 11:11:39AM +0100]:

> I noticed yesterday [0] that the PyCascades conference [1] explicitly
> does not permit any questions and answers after a presentation.

> Finding this intriguing, I followed up to ask for more information and
> was given the following reply:

>   No live Q&A after talks makes it a more friendly environment for
>   first time and new speakers. @ericholscher has written about this and
>   explained it better than I can in a tweet :)  [link removed]

> -- https://twitter.com/mariatta/status/1038110484673622016

I've seen this e.g. also for the Deconstruct conference, via
https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/992213867773083648 ->

| Dear meetup organisers:
|
| Please ditch the Q&A
|
| 1. It puts the speaker on the spot for something they can't prepare for
| 2. There are rarely good questions
| 3. Mansplaining

   -- https://twitter.com/claireinez/status/991674423118893056

Or to quote Gary, from
https://twitter.com/garybernhardt/status/989998209123536896:

| who in hell called it conference talk Q&A and not an open mic pedantry slam

regards,
-mika-


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Sicelo]

I would like to add my humble point of view on this issue ...

Background: first time attendee & speaker at DebConf16

I agree with everyone that speaking, and later on, questioning, can
drain a first time conference speaker. Worse still when English is a
language one does not use daily. Then of course, a first time speaker
will most likely not have much technical know-how of the subject, and it
is to be expected that there will be some in the audience far more
knowledgeable on the matter than he/she is.

However, this in no way makes a new speaker intimidated. DebConf has a
code of conduct, and the little I have seen (one DebConf attended, and a
number of them watched), there is almost zero hostility from the
audience.

Norbert Preining wrote ... 
> Critical and tough questions are the best one can get, because the
> challenge what you have done and might open new avenues. Personal
> experience it is.

Christop Biedl wrote ..
> No doubt this is an issue. BUT: There are other, better ways to deal
> with it than avoidance: By learning how to handle the situation. Being
> able to preset your ideas, not necessarily in such a formal event as a
> DebConf, is a key competence - we'll I'd say in your entire life.
...
> may trust you will not experience anything bad. Enough people in the
> audience have experience with presenting, they will at least be polite
> enough to show respect you gave a presentation at all.

It cannot be said any better than Norbert Preining and Christoph Biedl
have already said. 

I personally found the whole experience to be a lot of fun. When I watch
my talk at DebConf16, I always feel that I wasted everyone's time and
mine, because the delivery was really bad (I was struggling to find
words to express myself), and the content was definitely underwhelming.
However, the Q&A was the best part of my talk, and gave me a very
personal 'feel' of the Debian community. In the end, I learned a lot
from it.

Adding the option to have no public Q&A for first-time speakers is
probably going to be helpful. At the same time, perhaps along with such
option, there could be a note that briefly explains the possible
benefits of allowing Q&A and that offers mentorship from a more
experienced speaker. It would have to be worded in such a way that
someone who really prefers no Q&A is not left feeling guilty.

Just my two cents
Sicelo


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Samuel Thibault]

Bdale Garbee, le dim. 09 sept. 2018 14:31:56 -0500, a ecrit:
> Samuel Thibault  writes:
> > Sure, but that does not *have* to be done during the session, with
> > the whole audience listening to the discussion, which I guess is the
> > precise stressing point. Such a rule doesn't necessarily prevent from
> > discussions on the side, which AIUI don't bring such stress.
> 
> I can see that.  But on the other side of the balance, I've come to really
> appreciate the video+audio record of sessions at Debconf, and anything
> that's not discussed in the actual sessions doesn't become part of that
> record we can refer to.

Which is actually exactly what is sought here. One's answer getting
recorded is one of the sources of stress.

Samuel

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Bdale Garbee]

Christoph Biedl  writes:

> So perhaps one suggestion for DebConf: Make Q&A optional:
>
>> Such an idea could potentially be accomodated in a similar fashion to
>> the "Record talk? [Y]/n" question for a talk proposal; an "Allow Q&A?
>> [Y]/n", also defaulting to "yes".
>
> +1

If we do this in the future, I hope we make sure talks where questions are
not allowed are clearly marked as such in the program, as are talks
without video coverage.

Bdale


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Bdale Garbee]

Samuel Thibault  writes:

> Sure, but that does not *have* to be done during the session, with
> the whole audience listening to the discussion, which I guess is the
> precise stressing point. Such a rule doesn't necessarily prevent from
> discussions on the side, which AIUI don't bring such stress.

I can see that.  But on the other side of the balance, I've come to really
appreciate the video+audio record of sessions at Debconf, and anything
that's not discussed in the actual sessions doesn't become part of that
record we can refer to.  [shrug]  Obviously, there are trade-offs here.

Bdale


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Norbert Preining]

Hi

>   No live Q&A after talks makes it a more friendly environment for
>   first time and new speakers. @ericholscher has written about this and

I cannot subscribe to either of this. Much has been said, most
importantly, start small, at a local user meeting if you are scared to
talk in front of lots of people.

If one really don't want questions, just talk out completely the alotted
time, the session chair will say "we don't have time" or "only time for
a very short question" and there we are.

I seriously considering shooting ourself in the knee even pondering such
an idea. The amount of positive feedback and suggestions I have heard
over my years talking at conference far outweights the very few stupid
comments - which one anyway can ignore.

Critical and tough questions are the best one can get, because the
challenge what you have done and might open new avenues. Personal
experience it is.

> Anyway, whilst I am in no way suggesting DebConf takes an identical
> approach (!!), I would be curious to know whether if we are missing any
> new contributions this way.

This is the next line of thinking I cannot subscribe. Of course we loose
contributions. But we also loose contributions because we don't require
women to go fully veiled, thus some people will not attend our
conferences.

What I want to say is that we exclude lots of contributions by the
specific style, topic, and culture, and that is *good*so*. We don't need
each and everyone.

Best

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert   http://www.preining.info
Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13   fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Harlan Lieberman-Berg]

On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 1:47 PM, Samuel Henrique  wrote:
> For the speaker side, I saw a really good solution being used at this
> year's DC by Audrey Tang[0], I think it is a non-free service, but it
> should be something really easy to implement it for ourselves.

This could even be done with gobby -- the "upvoting" mechanism can
just be adding "+1" to the end.  I've seen that done at other events,
though usually only in situations where the audience size is both
massive (1k+) and distributed.


-- 
Harlan Lieberman-Berg
~hlieberman

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Samuel Henrique]

Sorry, I don't mean "sugesstion" as "we should do this", I believe
this is something that still has to be discussed to see what we agree
upon.

I agree with Steve McIntyre about being important to have good
interaction on the talks, and doing the questions on the mic is good
for that, as long as people are comfortable with.


-- 
Samuel Henrique 

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Samuel Henrique]

For the speaker side, I saw a really good solution being used at this
year's DC by Audrey Tang[0], I think it is a non-free service, but it
should be something really easy to implement it for ourselves.

My suggestion is as follows:
* anyone can send questions for that specific talk (anonymously or
not) by accessing an url
* other people can upvote/downvote the question as the talk is going
* the speaker has an online dashboard where they can see the most
upvoted questions and answer the ones they would like to (if the
speaker agreed to answer questions after the talk)[1]

Benefits:
* people watching it live can send questions
* can send questions anonymously
* there will be no room for listening difficulties (accents, speaking
too fast, etc.)
* speaker answer the ones they are comfortable with
* questions can be well made as there will be no anxiety of speaking
on mic (for some people)

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDwfk5jo_ow
[1] it is expected that the speaker read the question before
answering, for accessibility reasons


--
Samuel Henrique 

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Chris

On 2018/09/08 12:11, Chris Lamb wrote:
> I noticed yesterday [0] that the PyCascades conference [1] explicitly
> does not permit any questions and answers after a presentation.
>
> Finding this intriguing, I followed up to ask for more information and
> was given the following reply:
>
>   No live Q&A after talks makes it a more friendly environment for
>   first time and new speakers. @ericholscher has written about this and
>   explained it better than I can in a tweet :)  [link removed]
I think ultimately, this should be up to the individual speaker for
every talk. At some sessions where I was talkmeister, I told the speaker
that their allotted time includes their question time and some have told
me that they won't be taking questions. They've also gone another step
further and mentioned at the beginning of the talk that they have lots
to go through and how to get in touch if anyone has feedback.

As for the logic behind "No live Q&A after talks makes it a more
friendly environment", I find that somewhat flawed. By that rationale we
can also just stop having conferences because that will help reduce
harassment. Questions can sometimes contribute largely to making a talk
interesting, but they're by no means compulsory for speakers at DebConf
and I believe that the status quo on this is just fine.

-Jonathan

--
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.



Powered ByWebafricaFibre | LTE

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Ondrej Novy]

Hi,

I understand reasons behind this.

One of reason why I didn't give any talk anywhere is, that questions after
talk is really stressfull for me. I know my english is not perfect, I can
speak but sometimes I can't understand correctly. 250 people in room, one
of them ask me question and I would say: Sorry, I don't understand.

No thanks :)

-- 
Best regards
 Ondřej Nový

Email: n...@ondrej.org
PGP: 3D98 3C52 EB85 980C 46A5  6090 3573 1255 9D1E 064B

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Vincent Bernat]

 ❦  8 septembre 2018 11:11 +0100, Chris Lamb :

> Anyway, whilst I am in no way suggesting DebConf takes an identical
> approach (!!), I would be curious to know whether if we are missing any
> new contributions this way.

I don't speak in front of large audiences because of the Q&A part. I
have a hard time understanding random people in English and Q&A are
always a mix of people talking too fast (and repeating at the exact same
speed), not in the mic and without sufficient context to assemble the
parts.

I don't suggest to change anything for Debconf, I am just bad at
conferencing.
-- 
Watch out for off-by-one errors.
- The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan & Plauger)


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Chris Lamb]

[Dropping myself from CC]

Hi Steve,

> I can only assume PyCascades is a very different kind of conference.

In what way? I doubt too much actually. Not that it really matters
here but in my experience Python conferences, especially Django ones,
have actually quite a similar style to DebConfs and invariably tend to
be on the "progressive" side of the bell curve.

> I *really* don't like this - for me, the main point of a DebConf talk
> is to promote interaction.

I can understand and relate to this. Hm, you didn't address the
optionality component I vaguely mooted to the end of my original mail;
I would be curious to learn your opinion if, say, Q&A was optional,
and/or perhaps an option only available for first-time speakers.


Best wishes,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Chris Lamb]

Hi Samuel,

> > About embarrassing behaviour from the audience: First, this barely ever
> > happens, [...]
> 
> I completely agree this all of this, and that's what I explain to our
> PhD students. But them actually believing it is another matter.

There is a huge gap between "what I think speaking at a conference
might be like" (ie. insane levels of nerves, you're picked apart on
every word you say, you will be heckled, nobody will like you,
questions will be hostile, professional reputations are easily ruined,
totally not for me, etc) ... and what it /actually/ is like to speak
(ie. nerve-inducing for sure, but actually not too awful at the end of
the day).

As you imply, facts or strong reassurances somehow do not really speak
to a first-timers concerns.


Regards,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Samuel Thibault]

Christoph Biedl, le sam. 08 sept. 2018 17:08:28 +0200, a ecrit:
> About embarrassing behaviour from the audience: First, this barely ever
> happens, [...]

I completely agree this all of this, and that's what I explain to our
PhD students. But them actually believing it is another matter.

> I strongly advise to go into some training:

Sure, but each step is very difficult for people who don't have much
confidence. Yes, it's something that's useful to learn, but the curve is
steep between a local group and an international audience.

Samuel

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Samuel Thibault]

Matthew Vernon, le sam. 08 sept. 2018 15:41:14 +0100, a ecrit:
> Moderators happy/able to cut people off who aren't really
> asking a question seems a better solution than banning all questions.

But the speaker can not be sure that it will happen.

Samuel

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Christoph Biedl]

Chris Lamb wrote...

> Here is the salient section from the linked page by Eric Holscher:

Quite frankly, I find this very upsetting.

>   Let's start with speakers. Many first-time speakers that I know have
>   an intense anxiety around having the audience ask questions. They
>   think, "I am going to go up and give a talk, and then someone in the
>   audience will contradict or embarrass me for lack of knowledge
>   afterward." Audience questions after talks are one of the biggest
>   sources of stress for speakers.

No doubt this is an issue. BUT: There are other, better ways to deal
with it than avoidance: By learning how to handle the situation. Being
able to preset your ideas, not necessarily in such a formal event as a
DebConf, is a key competence - we'll I'd say in your entire life.

So if the first time you give a presentation is a huge hall with several
hundred atendees: Tough call. I strongly advise to go into some
training: Give the presentation to a few friends first, then perhaps at
the local Linux Users Group or something similar. You should do this
anyway to check whether your timing is okay.

About embarrassing behaviour from the audience: First, this barely ever
happens, and unless your talk was about a highly controversial topic you
may trust you will not experience anything bad. Enough people in the
audience have experience with presenting, they will at least be polite
enough to show respect you gave a presentation at all.

Giving a presentation is not an exam. And actually it can be a lot of
fun - although I learned this many years after school where it always
was a nightmare indeed.

Having said that: Q&A is a hard moment indeed: You're done with your
presentation, somewhat exhausted, and now people ask questions, jumping
all across your topic and beyond. Being able to follow reqires some
energy. On the other hand, I found Q&A always a refreshing experience
since people share other views on an issue, giving completely new ideas
about it.

And this is why ...

>   Now for the audience. (...)

... I cannot subscribe this at all.

The other part I miss here: What else to do then? Certainly many *want*
to discuss the topic of the presentation. Is there any other space where
this might happen instead?

So perhaps one suggestion for DebConf: Make Q&A optional:

> Such an idea could potentially be accomodated in a similar fashion to
> the "Record talk? [Y]/n" question for a talk proposal; an "Allow Q&A?
> [Y]/n", also defaulting to "yes".

+1

Christoph


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Matthew Vernon]

On 08/09/18 15:37, Steve McIntyre wrote:

On Sat, Sep 08, 2018 at 11:11:39AM +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:

Hi,

I noticed yesterday [0] that the PyCascades conference [1] explicitly
does not permit any questions and answers after a presentation.


Ewww...

I *really* don't like this - for me, the main point of a DebConf talk
is to promote interaction. It's a way to present what you've done or
are doing, and then immediately get involvement from the audience
(both local and virtual). That might be to clarify something you've
just said, or to talk about working together, or similar.


I prefer questions-during to questions-after when I'm speaking (because 
usually it means I failed to explain something properly), but I think 
they're a valuable part of giving a talk. OK, there are times when the 
questions "more of a comment..." can be unhelpful, but I think on the 
whole they're valuable. Moderators happy/able to cut people off who 
aren't really asking a question seems a better solution than banning all 
questions.


Regards,

Matthew

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Holger Levsen]

On Sat, Sep 08, 2018 at 04:51:33PM +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote:
> Sure, but that does not *have* to be done during the session, with
> the whole audience listening to the discussion, which I guess is the
> precise stressing point. 

http://ericholscher.com/blog/2016/nov/12/questions-at-conferences/ has
more good suggestions:

--quote begin--
Speaker goes to the front of stage for questions

At my own conferences, Write the Docs, we have established the norm of not
having full audience questions. After each talk we ask the speaker to come
to the front of the stage, and then have a conversation with members of the
audience with questions.

This achieves a couple beneficial results:

People are empowered to ask questions that are more specific to their 
situation, instead of trying to general them for a larger audience
The question asker isn’t given a “stage” to promote their own projects
or ideas
The speaker isn’t worried about being “called out” in front of the full
room
Everyone else in the audience is free to do whatever they want

[...]
Questions are your responsibility

As the organizer of an event, the way that you structure the event has a
direct impact on people’s experience. Opening the room to questions and not
doing any moderation is abdicating your responsibility as an organizer.
--quote end--


So yes, good room moderation is pretty important, and giving speakers
the explicit note that they dont have to accept questions seems nice
indeed.


-- 
cheers,
Holger

---
   holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
   PGP fingerprint: B8BF 5413 7B09 D35C F026 FE9D 091A B856 069A AA1C


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Steve McIntyre, le sam. 08 sept. 2018 15:37:19 +0100, a ecrit:
> On Sat, Sep 08, 2018 at 11:11:39AM +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:
> >I noticed yesterday [0] that the PyCascades conference [1] explicitly
> >does not permit any questions and answers after a presentation.
> 
> Ewww...
> 
> I *really* don't like this - for me, the main point of a DebConf talk
> is to promote interaction. It's a way to present what you've done or
> are doing, and then immediately get involvement from the audience
> (both local and virtual). That might be to clarify something you've
> just said, or to talk about working together, or similar.

Sure, but that does not *have* to be done during the session, with
the whole audience listening to the discussion, which I guess is the
precise stressing point. Such a rule doesn't necessarily prevent from
discussions on the side, which AIUI don't bring such stress.

>From times to times, I have polemical questions to the speaker, which
I try to avoid asking during the session, and rather discuss on the
side. That's precisely the kind of questions that speakers can fear
from, and that can require a lengthy discussion, which thus shouldn't
take place during the session, but speakers can't be sure it doesn't
happen. I however agree that time on the side should really come along
such kind of request, i.e. speakers could request "if you have any
question, please come to me any time during DebConf".

Samuel

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Steve McIntyre]

On Sat, Sep 08, 2018 at 11:11:39AM +0100, Chris Lamb wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I noticed yesterday [0] that the PyCascades conference [1] explicitly
>does not permit any questions and answers after a presentation.

Ewww...

I *really* don't like this - for me, the main point of a DebConf talk
is to promote interaction. It's a way to present what you've done or
are doing, and then immediately get involvement from the audience
(both local and virtual). That might be to clarify something you've
just said, or to talk about working together, or similar.

I can only assume PyCascades is a very different kind of conference.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Who needs computer imagery when you've got Brian Blessed?

Re: Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Bdale Garbee]

Interesting.  

The thing that pops to my mind is that Debconf has always been a very 
interactive event.  More BOF and panel discussion oriented than broadcast-talk 
oriented.  Which for a "working" event makes a lot of sense.  

But I, too, hope we aren't missing useful contributions...

Hrm.

Bdale

On September 8, 2018 4:11:39 AM MDT, Chris Lamb  wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I noticed yesterday [0] that the PyCascades conference [1] explicitly
>does not permit any questions and answers after a presentation.
>
>Finding this intriguing, I followed up to ask for more information and
>was given the following reply:
>
>  No live Q&A after talks makes it a more friendly environment for
>  first time and new speakers. @ericholscher has written about this and
>  explained it better than I can in a tweet :)  [link removed]
>
>-- https://twitter.com/mariatta/status/1038110484673622016
>
>~
>
>Here is the salient section from the linked page by Eric Holscher:
>
>  There are two primary audiences that have issues with questions:
>
>- Speakers
>- The audience
>
>  Let's start with speakers. Many first-time speakers that I know have
>  an intense anxiety around having the audience ask questions. They
>  think, "I am going to go up and give a talk, and then someone in the
>  audience will contradict or embarrass me for lack of knowledge
>  afterward." Audience questions after talks are one of the biggest
>  sources of stress for speakers.
>
>  Now for the audience. They have chosen to attend a talk to hear from
>  a specific speaker about a topic they are knowledgeable on. If there
>  are 250 people in the room, each minute of the talk is over 4 hours
>  of combined time. When you offer up a microphone to anyone in the
>  audience, you are now offering 4 hours of peoples life to an
>  unaudited question and answer that likely only provides value to a
>  small minority of attendees. This is not a good use of anyones time,
>  and often audiences feel trapped in a talk room during Q&A time.
>
>  -- http://ericholscher.com/blog/2016/nov/12/questions-at-conferences/
>
>~
>
>Anyway, whilst I am in no way suggesting DebConf takes an identical
>approach (!!), I would be curious to know whether if we are missing any
>new contributions this way.
>
>This is naturally a difficult question to answer on this list as anyone
>subscribed is likely a DebConf regular and thus somewhat less likely to
>be a first-timer.
>
>Such an idea could potentially be accomodated in a similar fashion to
>the "Record talk? [Y]/n" question for a talk proposal; an "Allow Q&A?
>[Y]/n", also defaulting to "yes".
>
>Just to underline, I'm not suggesting DebConf changes anything, just
>sharing an somewhat-random and hopefully thought-provoking idea I
>came across.
>
> [0] https://twitter.com/mariatta/status/1037907132954292224
> [1] https://2019.pycascades.com/
>
>
>Regards,
>
>-- 
>  ,''`.
> : :'  : Chris Lamb
> `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
>   `-

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Questions after talks at DebConf (idea)

[Chris Lamb]

Hi,

I noticed yesterday [0] that the PyCascades conference [1] explicitly
does not permit any questions and answers after a presentation.

Finding this intriguing, I followed up to ask for more information and
was given the following reply:

  No live Q&A after talks makes it a more friendly environment for
  first time and new speakers. @ericholscher has written about this and
  explained it better than I can in a tweet :)  [link removed]

-- https://twitter.com/mariatta/status/1038110484673622016

~

Here is the salient section from the linked page by Eric Holscher:

  There are two primary audiences that have issues with questions:

- Speakers
- The audience

  Let's start with speakers. Many first-time speakers that I know have
  an intense anxiety around having the audience ask questions. They
  think, "I am going to go up and give a talk, and then someone in the
  audience will contradict or embarrass me for lack of knowledge
  afterward." Audience questions after talks are one of the biggest
  sources of stress for speakers.

  Now for the audience. They have chosen to attend a talk to hear from
  a specific speaker about a topic they are knowledgeable on. If there
  are 250 people in the room, each minute of the talk is over 4 hours
  of combined time. When you offer up a microphone to anyone in the
  audience, you are now offering 4 hours of peoples life to an
  unaudited question and answer that likely only provides value to a
  small minority of attendees. This is not a good use of anyones time,
  and often audiences feel trapped in a talk room during Q&A time.

-- http://ericholscher.com/blog/2016/nov/12/questions-at-conferences/

~

Anyway, whilst I am in no way suggesting DebConf takes an identical
approach (!!), I would be curious to know whether if we are missing any
new contributions this way.

This is naturally a difficult question to answer on this list as anyone
subscribed is likely a DebConf regular and thus somewhat less likely to
be a first-timer.

Such an idea could potentially be accomodated in a similar fashion to
the "Record talk? [Y]/n" question for a talk proposal; an "Allow Q&A?
[Y]/n", also defaulting to "yes".

Just to underline, I'm not suggesting DebConf changes anything, just
sharing an somewhat-random and hopefully thought-provoking idea I
came across.

 [0] https://twitter.com/mariatta/status/1037907132954292224
 [1] https://2019.pycascades.com/


Regards,

-- 
  ,''`.
 : :'  : Chris Lamb
 `. `'`  la...@debian.org / chris-lamb.co.uk
   `-