Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Holger Levsen]

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 04:19:18PM +0200, Wolfgang Schweer wrote:
> No. LTSP thin clients are using the desktop installed on the server 
> side, LTSP diskless workstations the one installed in the chroot. This 
> should definitly be the same desktop to don't confuse admins.
 
ok. as KDE cannot be installed/used, we need to choose something else.

> BTW: sunweaver (with his MATE maintainer hat on) gave the advice to 
> don't use MATE as default desktop for the Debian Edu Stretch release; 
> one importent reason given was unsufficient language report, see the 
> Stretch status page (and the history of that page) for details.

well, the one language named there is nyorsk, and its at least partly
translated and there is bokmal as an alternative which almost all nyorsk
speakers will understand.

the alternative is to choose a translated desktop, which cannot be
installed.


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Wolfgang Schweer]

On Mon, Mar 26, 2018 at 12:27:03PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> well, whatever we decided anywhere, if there are new information, we
> might need to change our decision. It seems to me that we can keep KDE
> as default for workstations and standalone, and switch to LXDE for LTSP
> clients, can't we?

No. LTSP thin clients are using the desktop installed on the server 
side, LTSP diskless workstations the one installed in the chroot. This 
should definitly be the same desktop to don't confuse admins.

BTW: sunweaver (with his MATE maintainer hat on) gave the advice to 
don't use MATE as default desktop for the Debian Edu Stretch release; 
one importent reason given was unsufficient language report, see the 
Stretch status page (and the history of that page) for details.

Wolfgang


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Holger Levsen]

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 10:24:58PM +0100, Wolfgang Schweer wrote:
> > I'm not sure why you advocate only documenting this in the manual,
> > instead of changing the default…
> The default desktop is set as kernel command line param. This is done 
> when the ISO image is generated (see e.g. CONF-stretch-usbstick.sh for 
> the BD ISO image). So no way to change it now.
 
huh, we can regenerate the ISO!

> In Oslo we discussed about what should be the default desktop (being 
> MATE at that time); iirc we decided to keep KDE as default but to 
> recommend LXDE for LTSP clients. On the mailing lists there was feedback 
> (also after the Stretch release) that LXDE was well suited for LTSP. So 
> it's somehow known...

well, whatever we decided anywhere, if there are new information, we
might need to change our decision. It seems to me that we can keep KDE
as default for workstations and standalone, and switch to LXDE for LTSP
clients, can't we?

> > maybe we can use the minidebconf in hamburg to get usuable
> > debian-edu-buster images build on debian.org infrastructure…
> sounds good.

there's no blocker bug anymore, it "just has to be done" on the
debian-cd side :)

> > again: my suggestion was to change the default because KDE is broken. I
> > really dont get why you suggest to keep KDE and then to document that
> > people should not use it.
> KDE works quite well for profiles 'Standalone', 'Roaming-Workstation' 
> and 'Workstation'. Just for LTSP clients a decent desktop like KDE (or 
> GNOME) isn't really suited.

see above :)


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Dominik George]

Hi,

> In Oslo we discussed about what should be the default desktop (being 
> MATE at that time); iirc we decided to keep KDE as default but to 
> recommend LXDE for LTSP clients. On the mailing lists there was feedback 
> (also after the Stretch release) that LXDE was well suited for LTSP. So 
> it's somehow known...

> […]

> KDE works quite well for profiles 'Standalone', 'Roaming-Workstation' 
> and 'Workstation'. Just for LTSP clients a decent desktop like KDE (or 
> GNOME) isn't really suited.

If MATE was the default, why was LXDE chosen?

Also, I do not think that MATE is not a "decent desktop".

For buster, please let's decide for one default for all, set that both
on the media and in the manual, and extra points for not diverting from
Debian's default ;).

-nik

-- 
Dominik George (1. Vorstandsvorsitzender, pädagogischer Leiter)
Teckids e.V. - Erkunden, Entdecken, Erfinden.
https://www.teckids.org/


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Wolfgang Schweer]

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 08:18:19PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:58:52PM +0100, Wolfgang Schweer wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:21:33PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > > isnt this bug a manifestation of three bugs:
> > As far as I can tell: only sort of. In the first place the bug shows 
> > that communicating how to install different profiles could be better. 
> > Maybe there should be BIG and FAT hints; but it might be wishful 
> > thinking this could make a difference.
>  
> I'm not sure why you advocate only documenting this in the manual,
> instead of changing the default…

The default desktop is set as kernel command line param. This is done 
when the ISO image is generated (see e.g. CONF-stretch-usbstick.sh for 
the BD ISO image). So no way to change it now.

In Oslo we discussed about what should be the default desktop (being 
MATE at that time); iirc we decided to keep KDE as default but to 
recommend LXDE for LTSP clients. On the mailing lists there was feedback 
(also after the Stretch release) that LXDE was well suited for LTSP. So 
it's somehow known...
 
> maybe we can use the minidebconf in hamburg to get usuable
> debian-edu-buster images build on debian.org infrastructure…

sounds good.
 
> > > 2. ltsp default should be lxde clients
> > LTSP thin clients need LXDE (or another lightweiht DE like Xfce or MATE) 
> > on the server side as well; so IMO the recommondatation in the manual 
> > install chapter (use 'desktop=lxde') is already the right solution.
> 
> again: my suggestion was to change the default because KDE is broken. I
> really dont get why you suggest to keep KDE and then to document that
> people should not use it.

KDE works quite well for profiles 'Standalone', 'Roaming-Workstation' 
and 'Workstation'. Just for LTSP clients a decent desktop like KDE (or 
GNOME) isn't really suited.

Wolfgang



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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Holger Levsen]

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 11:58:52PM +0100, Wolfgang Schweer wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:21:33PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > isnt this bug a manifestation of three bugs:
> As far as I can tell: only sort of. In the first place the bug shows 
> that communicating how to install different profiles could be better. 
> Maybe there should be BIG and FAT hints; but it might be wishful 
> thinking this could make a difference.
 
I'm not sure why you advocate only documenting this in the manual,
instead of changing the default…

> > 1. netinst image needs to be redone to include updated packages.
> Yes, this would solve the problem for now.
> >(can we build images using stable-proposed-updates?)
> No idea; also: is there enough space available on ftp.s.no? In general 
> it would be nice to have the ISOs updated after each stable point 
> release.

oh, yes, sigh. no idea about diskspace on ftp/a.s.no, but this is
definitly demotivating. (the diskspace issues on that machine have been
a problem for 10 years now.)

maybe we can use the minidebconf in hamburg to get usuable
debian-edu-buster images build on debian.org infrastructure…

> > 2. ltsp default should be lxde clients
> LTSP thin clients need LXDE (or another lightweiht DE like Xfce or MATE) 
> on the server side as well; so IMO the recommondatation in the manual 
> install chapter (use 'desktop=lxde') is already the right solution.

again: my suggestion was to change the default because KDE is broken. I
really dont get why you suggest to keep KDE and then to document that
people should not use it.

> > 3. insufficient diskspace^wfree space on partitions, in general and esp.
> >for kde ltsp clients
> IMO this is only a follow-up problem (and affecting only Stretch).

ok.


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Dominik George]

Hi,

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:43:58AM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> from irc:
> 
> < Natureshadow> 78 GiB reserved for "debianfreespace"
> < Natureshadow> And /var only 5.2 GiB
> < h01ger> Natureshadow: mybe put that in the bug? i know, ranting 
> on irc is fun, but
> < h01ger> and then you could also resize /var during installing...
> < h01ger> debian-edu-autofsresize will do the job nicely and is documented

Resizing the partitions during installation in the /target chroot works.

On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 08:01:34PM +0100, Wolfgang Schweer wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 05:19:01PM +0100, Dominik George wrote:
> > I spent two days trying to install Debian Edu (combined server) in a
> > virtual machine. I started with 100 GiB hard disk, then tried 150 GiB,
> > and finally 220 GiB. The LTSP chroot installation always fails with no
> > space left in /opt/var/cache/apt.
> >
> > Installing Debain Edu is not possible.
> 
> I was unable to reproduce it (recommended 'desktop=lxde' setting, see manual).
> 
> I figure you used 'desktop=kde' (default kernel command line entry, common for
> all profiles); in this single case LTSP installation fails reproducibly.

OK. I read the manual (again) and do find a short note that lxde should
be used for LTSP, but what you write here sounds like more than a simple
recommendation. Maybe the manual should be clearer about that (the note
is also very well hidedn, IMHO - the paragraph is about changing the
desktop environment from the default, so I'd skip reading it if I don't
care changing the default).

> In the past I've tested also this case taking into account that reading a
> manual isn't fun for most people and thus will simply hit return; back then
> the KDE variant used to work as well, enough space was left.

OK.

But really - we should absolutely test the installer as it comes out of
the box. I really think most people will want to use it that way.

> 
> Now, the netinstall ISO image being outdated and a lot of updated packages
> getting installed after point release 9.4, /var/cache/apt/archives is filled
> up and about 100 MiB space is missing.
> 
> (As LTSP mounts the server Apt cache and arch=i386 is the LTSP default, a 
> whole
> bunch of unneeded packages plus the updated ones show up.)

Oh. Sorry, I missed the bit about the differing archs!

> 
> That said, a simple workaround is (if someone really wants KDE for LTSP 
> clients):
> 
> After the Debian installer reported the LTSP menu item as failed:
> 
> (1) Activate a Debian installer shell.
> (2) Run 'rm target/opt/ltsp -rf'
> (3) Run 'rm target/var/cache/apt/archive/*_amd64.deb'
> (4) Go back to the installer gui.
> (5) Choose the LTSP menu item again.
> 
> One could use an even simpler solution:
> Once the LTSP changeroot installation has started, do steps (1) and (3); the
> installation will run without issues.
> 
> As far as Buster is concerned, the cache issue won't show up as the LTSP 
> chroot
> arch will be the same as the server one.

Great!

Cheers,
Nik


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Wolfgang Schweer]

On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 01:21:33PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> isnt this bug a manifestation of three bugs:

As far as I can tell: only sort of. In the first place the bug shows 
that communicating how to install different profiles could be better. 
Maybe there should be BIG and FAT hints; but it might be wishful 
thinking this could make a difference.
 
> 1. netinst image needs to be redone to include updated packages.
Yes, this would solve the problem for now.
>(can we build images using stable-proposed-updates?)
No idea; also: is there enough space available on ftp.s.no? In general 
it would be nice to have the ISOs updated after each stable point 
release.

> 2. ltsp default should be lxde clients
LTSP thin clients need LXDE (or another lightweiht DE like Xfce or MATE) 
on the server side as well; so IMO the recommondatation in the manual 
install chapter (use 'desktop=lxde') is already the right solution.
 
> 3. insufficient diskspace^wfree space on partitions, in general and esp.
>for kde ltsp clients
IMO this is only a follow-up problem (and affecting only Stretch).
 
Wolfgang


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Holger Levsen]

Hi Wolfgang,

isnt this bug a manifestation of three bugs:

1. netinst image needs to be redone to include updated packages.
   (can we build images using stable-proposed-updates?)
2. ltsp default should be lxde clients
3. insufficient diskspace^wfree space on partitions, in general and esp.
   for kde ltsp clients

?

-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Dominik George]

Hi,

>I figure you used 'desktop=kde' (default kernel command line entry,
>common for
>all profiles); in this single case LTSP installation fails
>reproducibly.

Yeah, well, that's what I meant by "default".

A diversion from defaults is a diversion from defaults, even if some text 
contradicts the defaults.

Why wasn't desktop=lxde made the default if it is the default?

-nik

Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Wolfgang Schweer]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 05:19:01PM +0100, Dominik George wrote:
> I spent two days trying to install Debian Edu (combined server) in a
> virtual machine. I started with 100 GiB hard disk, then tried 150 GiB,
> and finally 220 GiB. The LTSP chroot installation always fails with no
> space left in /opt/var/cache/apt.
>
> Installing Debain Edu is not possible.

I was unable to reproduce it (recommended 'desktop=lxde' setting, see manual).

I figure you used 'desktop=kde' (default kernel command line entry, common for
all profiles); in this single case LTSP installation fails reproducibly.

In the past I've tested also this case taking into account that reading a
manual isn't fun for most people and thus will simply hit return; back then
the KDE variant used to work as well, enough space was left.

Now, the netinstall ISO image being outdated and a lot of updated packages
getting installed after point release 9.4, /var/cache/apt/archives is filled
up and about 100 MiB space is missing.

(As LTSP mounts the server Apt cache and arch=i386 is the LTSP default, a whole
bunch of unneeded packages plus the updated ones show up.)

That said, a simple workaround is (if someone really wants KDE for LTSP 
clients):

After the Debian installer reported the LTSP menu item as failed:

(1) Activate a Debian installer shell.
(2) Run 'rm target/opt/ltsp -rf'
(3) Run 'rm target/var/cache/apt/archive/*_amd64.deb'
(4) Go back to the installer gui.
(5) Choose the LTSP menu item again.

One could use an even simpler solution:
Once the LTSP changeroot installation has started, do steps (1) and (3); the
installation will run without issues.

As far as Buster is concerned, the cache issue won't show up as the LTSP chroot
arch will be the same as the server one.


Wolfgang


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Holger Levsen]

hi, 

from irc:

< Natureshadow> 78 GiB reserved for "debianfreespace"
< Natureshadow> And /var only 5.2 GiB
< h01ger> Natureshadow: mybe put that in the bug? i know, ranting 
on irc is fun, but
< h01ger> and then you could also resize /var during installing...
< h01ger> debian-edu-autofsresize will do the job nicely and is documented


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Wolfgang Schweer]

Am 2018 3 16 16:19:01 UTC schrieb Dominik George :
>Source: debian-edu-install
>Version: 1.916
>Severity: grave
>Justification: renders package unusable
>
>-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>Hash: SHA256
>
>I spent two days trying to install Debian Edu (combined server) in a
>virtual machine. I started with 100 GiB hard disk, then tried 150 GiB,
>and finally 220 GiB. The LTSP chroot installation always fails with no
>space left in /opt/var/cache/apt.
>
>Installing Debain Edu is not possible.

Hi Dominik,
iirc 64 GiB has always been enough to install a default combi server (Stretch) 
w/o any space problems. Anything special about your installation?

Wolfgang
(via phone; no access to serious hardware atm)

Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Holger Levsen]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 05:37:04PM +0100, Dominik George wrote:
> I very much doubt that the standard configuration can be installed by
> anyone right now.

then confirm this, but dont inflate severities by believing.

and still debian-edu-install also installs other machine types, which
work flawlessly, so this is the exact definition of an "important" bug.

> How would I do this (without manually fixing the partitions)? The
> content downlaoded for building the chroot simply does not fit into the
> logical volume used for it. Taht won't change after reboot.

I guess I'm lacking information about the current layout you've seen.
please include this in the bug report and please also include the syslog
from d-i.


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Dominik George]

Hi,

> > Severity: grave
> > Justification: renders package unusable
> 
> but not for everyone, so its just "important". we have had several many
> successful installation reports since last year.

I very much doubt that the standard configuration can be installed by
anyone right now.

> 
> > I spent two days trying to install Debian Edu (combined server) in a
> > virtual machine. I started with 100 GiB hard disk, then tried 150 GiB,
> > and finally 220 GiB. The LTSP chroot installation always fails with no
> > space left in /opt/var/cache/apt.
> 
> strange. as a workaround you could install a plain main-server and then
> turn that into an LTSP server after installation.

How would I do this (without manually fixing the partitions)? The
content downlaoded for building the chroot simply does not fit into the
logical volume used for it. Taht won't change after reboot.

-nik


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Holger Levsen]

control: severity -1 important
thanks

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 05:19:01PM +0100, Dominik George wrote:
> Severity: grave
> Justification: renders package unusable

but not for everyone, so its just "important". we have had several many
successful installation reports since last year.

> I spent two days trying to install Debian Edu (combined server) in a
> virtual machine. I started with 100 GiB hard disk, then tried 150 GiB,
> and finally 220 GiB. The LTSP chroot installation always fails with no
> space left in /opt/var/cache/apt.

strange. as a workaround you could install a plain main-server and then
turn that into an LTSP server after installation.


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Bug#893120: debian-edu-install: uninstallable on ahrd disk thrice the size mentioned in manual

[Dominik George]

Source: debian-edu-install
Version: 1.916
Severity: grave
Justification: renders package unusable

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

I spent two days trying to install Debian Edu (combined server) in a
virtual machine. I started with 100 GiB hard disk, then tried 150 GiB,
and finally 220 GiB. The LTSP chroot installation always fails with no
space left in /opt/var/cache/apt.

Installing Debain Edu is not possible.

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