SCO license for Debian distrib

2003-08-06 Thread Georges Roux
Bonsoir,
Je ne désre pas lance de troll sur ce forum.
J'aimerais pouvoir lire la position de officielle de Debian
Au vu de la licence SCO sur les distributions Linux.
Licence SCO : http://www.sco.com/scosource/linuxlicensefaq.html
un simple lien me suffirait, je ne tiens pas a poluer la doct mailling list.
--
   Georges Roux
 URL : http://georgesroux.pacageek.org
 email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 mobile : +33 (0) 613977573 




Re: SCO license for Debian distrib

2003-08-06 Thread Pierre THIERRY
 Licence SCO : http://www.sco.com/scosource/linuxlicensefaq.html

En Allemagne, le LinuxTag a fait sommer par la jsutice allemande SCO de
fermer sa gueule ou d'avancer des preuves formelles. C'était il y a
plusieurs semaines, et ils ont décidé de la fermer.

Conclusion : SCO n'a fait que monter un FUD, pour discréditer Linux,
notamment auprès des décideurs informatiques en entreprise.

Brièvement,
le Moine Fou
-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
OpenPGP 0xD9D50D8A


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Description: PGP signature


Re: Bug#202869: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Erik Steffl
Hans Fugal wrote:
* Andreas Jellinghaus [Wed,  6 Aug 2003 at 00:27 +0200]
mutt can do many nice things without /usr/sbin/sendmail.
a dependency is set if something is always required,
a recommends if is required for the common use, and
a suggestion is used if it improved the functionality.
so depending on mail-transport-agent is wrong,
the recommendation is fine.
Mutt can read mail without an MTA, but cannot send mail without one.
  it does not have to be on the same machine
erik



The results of your email commands

2003-08-06 Thread Cc-bounces
The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your
original message.

- Results:
Invalid confirmation string.  Note that confirmation strings expire
approximately 3 days after the initial subscription request.  If your
confirmation has expired, please try to re-submit your original request or
message.

- Unprocessed:
-- 
Reasumuj±c i upraszczaj±c, wysy³anie czegokolwiek do mnie przez internet
nie jest niczyim prawem, jest przywilejem.
/Marcin Frankowski, pl.news.mordplik, dyskusja ze spamerem/

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---BeginMessage---

-- 
Reasumujc i upraszczajc, wysyanie czegokolwiek do mnie przez internet
nie jest niczyim prawem, jest przywilejem.
/Marcin Frankowski, pl.news.mordplik, dyskusja ze spamerem/


---End Message---


Re: libraries being removed from the archive

2003-08-06 Thread Martin Schulze
Richard Braakman wrote:
 On Mon, Aug 04, 2003 at 10:08:04AM +0200, Jérôme Marant wrote:
   Hence the need for policy to dictate to the maintainer not to allow the
   package to be removed before all other packages have transitioned. It
   usually doesn't take much more work as long as the maintainer is even
   aware of what will happen.
  
  It is not policy problem, it is a common sense one!
 
 Common sense says otherwise :)  You see, before we had katie and the
 testing scripts, such removal of orphan libraries was done manually.
 (orphan because they no longer had a source package that built them).
 Our experience was that packages that depended on them did not even start
 to get updated until after we removed the old library.  As long as the
 old library was there, there was apparently no incentive for anyone
 to recompile.
 
 That's when we decided to just remove such libraries immediately,
 and just let unstable be broken for a while.  With most libraries
 this works fine.  There were a few libraries with so many dependencies
 that an oldlibs version was necessary -- ncurses was in that
 category, for example.  But they were the exception, not the rule.

That's experience, not common sense.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Long noun chains don't automatically imply security.  -- Bruce Schneier

Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Martin Schulze
Artur R. Czechowski wrote:
 I've found your bugreport:
 http://bugs.debian.org/202869
 
 I see no issue to not depending mutt on mail-transfer-agent.
 
 Mutt as is, is a software for reading, writing and sending emails.
 And to provide a full functionality it needs a kind of transfer-agent.
 
 I am not convinced to only Recommend on mail-transfer-agent. I rather
 tend to closing this wishitem or tag it as wontfix.

I agree.  The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail.
Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality
but a backup functionality.  To be able to provide the main
functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency.

Joe Average User would most probably be pissed if he installed mutt
but doesn't have an MTA and then tries to send mail.  That would take
us back into the old days of Slackware.

Those of us who have a host that doesn't contain an MTA (and hence no
cron) but want to have mutt installed, should use equivs to provide a
fake MTA.  Those usually also have the knowledge how to use equivs (or
read the manual), so it's no problem for those.

Regards,

Joey

-- 
Long noun chains don't automatically imply security.  -- Bruce Schneier

Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Morgon Kanter
This one time, at band camp, Martin Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I agree.  The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail.
 Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality
 but a backup functionality.  To be able to provide the main
 functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency.

What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP?

Morgon
-- 
Man is the only creature capable of hating itself -- Governor of Japan 
in The End of Evangelion




Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Nathanael Nerode
bootlogd.
Activating swap.
fsck 1.35-WIP (01-Aug-2003)
Running 0dns-down to make sure resolv.conf is ok...done.
Please contribute if you find this software useful.
DHCPDISCOVER on eth0 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 5
Starting Xprint servers: Xprt.

If the pause were after fsck and it was showing that it was 
checking 
the
disk that would let me know the machine is doing something.  If the 
pause is
after DHCPDISCOVER I can surmise that if the network isn't hooked up 
then it
is waiting for a timeout there.

I would go further.  The first time I saw these messages I didn't know
what DHCPDISCOVER or fsck meant.  BUT I knew this:

* If it hanged after DHCPDISCOVER, I should look up DHCP on google to
find out what went wrong

* If it hanged after fsck, I should look up fsck on google to find out 
what went wrong.

Already useful information.

Admittedly, I've seen some less than useful messages on boot (mostly 
overly generic messages where I couldn't figure out what part of 
the system could possibly be producing them).  Still, most of the 
messages are really pretty good, if you know how to filter for the key 
words.  

-- 
Nathanael Nerode  neroden at gcc.gnu.org
http://home.twcny.rr.com/nerode/neroden/fdl.html




Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
* Alan Shutko 

| Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| 
|  Oh, look, someone else who CCs when it is obvious the person they're
|  responding to is participating right here.
| 
| Maybe you should stop whining and just set the Mail-Copies-To header,
| which is generally respected by posters on Debian lists?

Or perhaps the poster should know the policy on Debian lists which is
_not_ to Cc unless explicitly requested.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
* Morgon Kanter 

| This one time, at band camp, Martin Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
|  I agree.  The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail.
|  Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality
|  but a backup functionality.  To be able to provide the main
|  functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency.
| 
| What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP?

Not without a patch, which afaik, isn't in the mutt in Debian.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Adam Majer
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:58:17AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote:
 Kalle Kivimaa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Roland Mas [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   with.  The MIA problem is significant enough that NM might be the only
   way to tackle with it seriously.  That means taking time to examine
   applications.
  
  BTW, has anybody done any research into what types of package
  maintainers tend to go MIA? I would be especially interested in a
  percentage of old style DD's, DD's who have gone through the NM
  process, people going MIA while in the NM queue, and people going MIA
  without ever even entering the NM queue. I'll try to do the statistics
  myself if nobody has done it before.
 
 And how many NMs go MIA because they still stuck in the NM queue after
 years? Should we ask them? :)

I'm stuck since Dec. 2001 FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! SOMEONE HELP 
ME!!! HELP ME SEE THE LIGHT AT THE END OF THE NM TUNNEL!! AGGG!!! 

Oh well, this plea probably will go the way of the weekly RC bug 
report - ignored.. :)

Since I started waiting for DAM, I saw a number of DDs get 
approved by their AM and accounts created, only later to go MIA 
Maybe it is better for them to go MIA in the NM queue in the first place? 

- Adam

My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for his/her 
package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to direct emails
about those bugs.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Eduard Bloch
#include hallo.h

 I agree.  The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail.

AOL

 Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality
 but a backup functionality.  To be able to provide the main
 functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency.

Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on 
mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta

and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake no-user-mta package
with equivs.

MfG,
Eduard.
-- 
Theorie ist, wenn man alles weiß und nix funktioniert; Praxis ist, wenn
alles funktionniert und keiner weiß, warum.




Re: Bug#202869: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Cameron Patrick
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 08:33:35PM -0700, Erik Steffl wrote:

| Mutt can read mail without an MTA, but cannot send mail without one.
| 
|   it does not have to be on the same machine

It does in the specific case of mutt.  I seem to recall Mutt's
developers deciding to specifically /not/ support SMTP and only
/usr/bin/sendmail for reasons of minimalism and simplicity.

Cameron.




Re: Have Linux boot with eye-candy

2003-08-06 Thread Mike Hommey
On Wednesday 06 August 2003 02:38, Erich Schubert wrote:
 Hi,
 i have built packages for the bootsplash tools (no package for the patch
 itself though. just download and apply the diff).
 They are available on http://people.debian.org/~erich/boot/bootsplash/
 and work fine on my notebook as well as my sisters.
 I didn't get the bootsplash support of swsusp working though; but maybe
 i just forgot applying that connector patch... ;)

If you don't mind, I'll probably grab stuff from your package to (finally) 
finish my ITP #188440 (note that I'll probably use only one source tarball 
for both the patch and splashutils, and that I hacked the patch to add 
support for bootsplash theme _inside_ a cramfs initrd). I hope to get enough 
time this week-end to finalize these packages.

(...)
 You'll find a theme i built for Debian there, too.
 It uses a really cool background made by  Alexis Younes (ayo),
 http://www.73lab.com/  -- unfortunately i don't know if it is DFSG-free.
 using the debian logos it probably isn't. ;)

They aren't DFSG compliant.

-- 
Do you know what's the best thing about being me ? There's so many me ! 
-- Agent Smith Reloaded




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Matthias Urlichs
Hi, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:

 * Morgon Kanter
 
 | What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP?
 
 Not without a patch, which afaik, isn't in the mutt in Debian.

I would recommend using that patch, then.

IMHO using any local mailer is a bad idea on a desktop system. You send
off the mail, your MUA says Sent, you power down or just close the
laptop, and, if your smarthost happens to be a bit slow today, the mail
sits there indefinitely.

-- 
Matthias Urlichs   |   {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
-- 
:flypage: /fli:'payj/ n. (alt. `fly page') A {banner}, sense 1.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Colin Watson
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 09:06:08AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote:
 #include hallo.h
  I agree.  The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail.
 
 AOL
 
  Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality
  but a backup functionality.  To be able to provide the main
  functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency.
 
 Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on 
 mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta
 
 and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake no-user-mta package
 with equivs.

There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that
provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install
something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that.

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Andreas Barth
* Goswin Brederlow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 05:35]:
 Kalle Kivimaa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  BTW, has anybody done any research into what types of package
  maintainers tend to go MIA? I would be especially interested in a
  percentage of old style DD's, DD's who have gone through the NM
  process, people going MIA while in the NM queue, and people going MIA
  without ever even entering the NM queue. I'll try to do the statistics
  myself if nobody has done it before.

 And how many NMs go MIA because they still stuck in the NM queue after
 years? Should we ask them? :)

Many. While cleaning up the ITPs/RFPs I asked many packagers about the
status of their package and got quite often a package is more or less
ready, but I'm waiting of DAM-approval because I don't want the hassle
of another sponsored package, or, what's worse a package was ok some
time ago, but as Debian doesn't want me I stopped fixing it.

Sad.


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
* Andreas Metzler 

| [1] I won't list Gnus but would be really surprised if it _needed_
| /usr/sbin/sendmail ;-)

gnus uses /usr/sbin/sendmail by default, but can use smtpmail.el if
you want that.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Goswin Brederlow
Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Goswin Brederlow ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 05:35]:
  Kalle Kivimaa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   BTW, has anybody done any research into what types of package
   maintainers tend to go MIA? I would be especially interested in a
   percentage of old style DD's, DD's who have gone through the NM
   process, people going MIA while in the NM queue, and people going MIA
   without ever even entering the NM queue. I'll try to do the statistics
   myself if nobody has done it before.
 
  And how many NMs go MIA because they still stuck in the NM queue after
  years? Should we ask them? :)
 
 Many. While cleaning up the ITPs/RFPs I asked many packagers about the
 status of their package and got quite often a package is more or less
 ready, but I'm waiting of DAM-approval because I don't want the hassle
 of another sponsored package, or, what's worse a package was ok some
 time ago, but as Debian doesn't want me I stopped fixing it.
 
 Sad.

Till this morning I was one of those NMs not wanting the hassel of a
sponsor but now I had to change my maintainers email and fix some RC
bugs so I did bully someone to sponsor it.

You wait 5 Month for the DAM and thus one should become DD any day
now. Would you realy go hunting for a sponsor again? Now that I did I
probably become DD tomorrow so it was a waste of time. .oO( Damn, now
I jinxed become DD too again ).

MfG
Goswin




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 09:35:29 +0200
Matthias Urlichs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 IMHO using any local mailer is a bad idea on a desktop system. You send
 off the mail, your MUA says Sent, you power down or just close the
 laptop, and, if your smarthost happens to be a bit slow today, the mail
 sits there indefinitely.

While I agree with you yuo are aware that this is a religious war that
makes the likes of EMACS vs Vi and Isreal vs. Palastine look like child's
play, right?

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
---+-


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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Brian May
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 09:35:29AM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
 IMHO using any local mailer is a bad idea on a desktop system. You send
 off the mail, your MUA says Sent, you power down or just close the
 laptop, and, if your smarthost happens to be a bit slow today, the mail
 sits there indefinitely.

Unless it is something like SSMTP...

SSMTP has no queue and sends E-Mail immediately to a smarthost.
-- 
Brian May [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
* Adam Majer 

| My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for
| his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to
| direct emails about those bugs.

I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or
so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Eduard Bloch
#include hallo.h
* Colin Watson [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:36:25AM]:

  Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on 
  mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta
  
  and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake no-user-mta package
  with equivs.
 
 There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that
 provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install
 something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that.

This OTOH may be dangerous, another packages that really rely on a
working /usr/sbin/sendmail must be able to depend on
mail-transport-agent and get one.

MfG,
Eduard.




Re: python 2.2 - python 2.3 transition

2003-08-06 Thread Josip Rodin
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:31:53PM +0200, Matthias Klose wrote:
 Last weekend, python 2.3 was released.
 With the next python2.3 upload, python2.3 becomes the default python
 version.

Am I the only one who has a disgusting reminiscence of netscape*.* packages
every time python* is mentioned? :P

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Matthias Urlichs
Hi, Colin Watson wrote:

 There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that
 provides mail-transport-agent with equivs.

I wouldn't even think about that; it's too easy to forget all about that
and then get bitten when you install a package which does require a
working /usr/sbin/sendmail.

 Or they could install
 something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that.

Better idea.  ;-)

-- 
Matthias Urlichs   |   {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
-- 
:var: /veir/ or /var/ n. Short for `variable'. Compare {arg}, {param}.




Re: Excessive wait for DAM - something needs to be done

2003-08-06 Thread Matthias Urlichs
Hi, Martin Michlmayr - Debian Project Leader wrote:

 In any case, applications will be processed (and some rejected, I'd
 assume) once db.d.o is up again.

Well, it seems to be up now (or at least ping+ssh+ldap'able).

I'll leave the obvious-loaded-question-asking to others. This time. ;-)

-- 
Matthias Urlichs   |   {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
-- 
Truth can wait; he's used to it.




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Matthew Palmer
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:10:08AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
 * Adam Majer 
 
 | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for
 | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to
 | direct emails about those bugs.
 
 I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or
 so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program.

Is that noted in the log for the bug?  Or would you respond to an e-mail
enquiring as to the status of the bug?  If either of those is true, then
you're not MIA by Adam's definition (well, I added the bug log bit, but it's
pretty much a pre-emptive answer to the question what's going on with that
bug?).

- Matt




Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Emile van Bergen
Hi,

On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 03:15:59PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

 On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:38:19 +0200
 Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Apple has a great way of doing that. They don't dumb down, they don't
  belittle you, they assume an intelligent being who can grasp reasonably
  complex English sentences, but who has less knowledge of computer
  idiom.
 
 *blink, blink*  Funny, I consider Apple on of the worst when it
 comes to dumbing down the interface.  Let's not forget they only
 took about 10 years to get *2* mouse buttons because it was too
 confusing.

To each his own mistakes. The point is that they seem to succeed
relatively often in creating messages and dialogues that are both
informative to the knowledgeable user and intelligible to a non-computer
savvy person.

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies - Emile van Bergen   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153   http://www.e-advies.nl




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Andreas Barth
* Tollef Fog Heen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 11:20]:
 * Adam Majer 
 
 | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for
 | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to
 | direct emails about those bugs.

 I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or
 so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program.

It seems to me that you're responding to emails. ;-)

(But: It seems usefull to me if a maintainer is writing status to each
RC-bug within two weeks if the bug isn't closed; however, up to six
weeks are acceptable once in a while, e.g. because of holidays.)


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Christoph Berg
Re: Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent? [Martin Schulze [EMAIL 
PROTECTED], Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 07:26:33AM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Joe Average User would most probably be pissed if he installed mutt
 but doesn't have an MTA and then tries to send mail.  That would take
 us back into the old days of Slackware.

Joe User will have Exim installed anyway (see the discussion on -devel
two weeks ago). The dependency on an MTA is not necessary, so for those
who want to remove their MTA completely but retain mutt, it would be
nice if the Depends: was dropped, the rest of the world won't notice
anyway.

Christoph
-- 
Christoph Berg [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.df7cb.de
Wohnheim D, 2405, Universität des Saarlandes, 0681/9657944


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Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
* Matthew Palmer 

| On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:10:08AM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
|  * Adam Majer 
|  
|  | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for
|  | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to
|  | direct emails about those bugs.
|  
|  I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or
|  so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program.
| 
| Is that noted in the log for the bug? 

Naturally, yes.

| Or would you respond to an e-mail enquiring as to the status of the
| bug?

Yes.

| If either of those is true, then you're not MIA by Adam's definition
| (well, I added the bug log bit, but it's pretty much a pre-emptive
| answer to the question what's going on with that bug?).

I misread, I read the «and» as an «or», which changes the semantics a
bit. :)

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Goswin Brederlow
Tollef Fog Heen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 * Adam Majer 
 
 | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for
 | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to
 | direct emails about those bugs.
 
 I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or
 so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program.

Taged forwarded?

MfG
Goswin




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
* Goswin Brederlow 

| Tollef Fog Heen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
| 
|  * Adam Majer 
|  
|  | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for
|  | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to
|  | direct emails about those bugs.
|  
|  I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or
|  so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program.
| 
| Taged forwarded?

No, because that messes up my bug listings.  That upstream knows about
a bug does not mean he is working on a fix, so just marking all bugs
forwarded isn't very useful, IMHO.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Bernhard R. Link
* Morgon Kanter [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030806 07:57]:
  I agree.  The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail.
  Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality
  but a backup functionality.  To be able to provide the main
  functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency.
 
 What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP?

If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing
the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would
be the lesser part).

Hochachtungsvoll,
  Bernhard R. Link

-- 
Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing
an editor and a MTA.




Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Emile van Bergen
Hi,

On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 11:06:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:

 * Emile van Bergen 
 
 | Hi,
 | 
 | On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:19:53AM -0700, Ian Hickson wrote:
 | 
 |  And I would scream if you called it /_My_ Variable Data/ too... :-P
 | 
 | I would even scream at 
 | 
 | /Variable Data/
 | 
 | simply because it encourages slow and RSI-inducing click and drag
 | behaviour, because such path names are impossible to type in (and this
 | one even requires escaping the space to distinguish between the argument
 | separator). 
 
 Tab completion or using /Va* is about as fast as /var.

I've considered tab-completion and /Va*, but you must realise that they
work only in the shell.

Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file
and have to write those path names. There are lots of other cases where
you must type a pathname in full. scp (on the remote side) is one that's
important.

/Va* further has the problem of requiring two awkward shifts.

[SNIP]

 Geeks use systems a lot and for long periods of time, so using more or
 less obscure interfaces is good, not bad for us.
 
 :)

I think that we prefer interfaces are ultimately very fast and are
willing to live the learning curve and obscurity that currently comes
with it.

There may be an inherent tradeoff, but I think that we shouldn't be too
quickly in dismissing UI changes that improve the linearity of the
learning curve, if they can be shown not to harm the efficiency at the
end of the curve.

Of course, any change that actually shifts the balance from convenience
for the frequent user towards ease of use for the incidental user should
IMHO be treated with a lot more scepsis -- if not outright rejected. 

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies - Emile van Bergen   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153   http://www.e-advies.nl




Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Michael Piefel
Am  6.08.03 um 13:04:41 schrieb Emile van Bergen:
  Tab completion or using /Va* is about as fast as /var.
 I've considered tab-completion and /Va*, but you must realise that they
 work only in the shell.
 
 Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file
 and have to write those path names.

In Vim insert mode, press ^X^F for completion, ^N/^P to choose among
many. Also, in GTK+, file selector boxes allow for tab completion.

Bye,
Mike

-- 
|=| Michael Piefel
|=| Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin
|=| Tel. (+49 30) 2093 3831




Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:34:49 +0200
Michael Piefel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Am  6.08.03 um 13:04:41 schrieb Emile van Bergen:
  Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file
  and have to write those path names.
 
 In Vim insert mode, press ^X^F for completion, ^N/^P to choose among
 many. Also, in GTK+, file selector boxes allow for tab completion.

*blink, blink*  Wow, Neat!  Learn something new every day.  

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
---+-


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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200
Bernhard R. Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing
 the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would
 be the lesser part).

No, it would not.  It would be using another method of accessing an MTA. 
Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web server,
a secure web server and an ftp server.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
---+-


pgpicpinBn2wP.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Keith Dunwoody
Michael Piefel wrote:
Am  6.08.03 um 13:04:41 schrieb Emile van Bergen:
Tab completion or using /Va* is about as fast as /var.
I've considered tab-completion and /Va*, but you must realise that they
work only in the shell.
Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file
and have to write those path names.

In Vim insert mode, press ^X^F for completion, ^N/^P to choose among
many. Also, in GTK+, file selector boxes allow for tab completion.
Also, in emacs one of the expansion techniques used by hippie-expand is to 
perform filename completion.

-- Keith
P.S.  Despite that I'm in favor of shortness.  Even ls instead of dir is 
worth it for me ;)




Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Andreas Rottmann
Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Hi,

 On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 11:06:53PM +0200, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:

 * Emile van Bergen 
 
 | Hi,
 | 
 | On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:19:53AM -0700, Ian Hickson wrote:
 | 
 |  And I would scream if you called it /_My_ Variable Data/ too... :-P
 | 
 | I would even scream at 
 | 
 | /Variable Data/
 | 
 | simply because it encourages slow and RSI-inducing click and drag
 | behaviour, because such path names are impossible to type in (and this
 | one even requires escaping the space to distinguish between the argument
 | separator). 
 
 Tab completion or using /Va* is about as fast as /var.

 I've considered tab-completion and /Va*, but you must realise that they
 work only in the shell.

 Neither tab-completion or globbing is available when I'm editing a file
 and have to write those path names. There are lots of other cases where
 you must type a pathname in full. 

 scp (on the remote side) is one that's important.

Use the ZShell, then! ;-)

Otherwise, I of course fully agree that names like /Variable Data/ are
evil.

Regards, Andy
-- 
Andreas Rottmann | [EMAIL PROTECTED]  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
http://www.8ung.at/rotty | GnuPG Key: http://www.8ung.at/rotty/gpg.asc
Fingerprint  | DFB4 4EB4 78A4 5EEE 6219  F228 F92F CFC5 01FD 5B62

Make free software, not war!




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Marco d'Itri
On Aug 05, Artur R. Czechowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I am not convinced to only Recommend on mail-transfer-agent. I rather
 tend to closing this wishitem or tag it as wontfix.
I'm inclined to close this bug. I agree with the submitter that a local
MTA is not strictly needed to use mutt, but OTOH these situations are
uncommon enough that advanced users can create a package with equivs or
just install one of the minimalist SMTP delivery programs.

-- 
ciao, |
Marco | [1158 brlPjyz4p9Ta.]




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Langasek
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 10:52:37AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote:
 #include hallo.h
 * Colin Watson [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:36:25AM]:

   Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on 
   mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta
   
   and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake no-user-mta package
   with equivs.

  There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that
  provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install
  something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that.

 This OTOH may be dangerous, another packages that really rely on a
 working /usr/sbin/sendmail must be able to depend on
 mail-transport-agent and get one.

Of course it's dangerous; overriding dependencies with the use of equivs
is always a little sketchy.  But if you're this concerned about not
having an MTA installed on your system (there are many choices in
Debian, some of them quite lightweight), you must have a reason, right?

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Matthias Urlichs
Hi, Emile van Bergen wrote:

 I would even scream at
 /Variable Data/
 
 simply because it encourages slow and RSI-inducing click and drag
 behaviour

/VaTAB isn't too bad, typing-wise, especially if you also have a
case-insensitive file system.

Apple's OS X translates the pathnames in the GUI _only_, so you get
Applications in English and Programme if you switch to German. The
file system understands only the original name, of course. I have my own
directory, named Programme, alongside, and while there's some initial
user confusion WRT two identically-named directories, the UI does a good
job keeping them distinct. (The fact that the Apple directory has a
distinct icon helps, of course. ;-)

-- 
Matthias Urlichs   |   {M:U} IT Design @ m-u-it.de   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Disclaimer: The quote was selected randomly. Really. | http://smurf.noris.de
-- 
Mythology: The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its origin,
early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from the true
accounts which it invents later.
-- Ambrose Bierce




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Matt Zimmerman
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:56:59AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote:

 I know of several DDs and non-DDs thinking about creating a Debian2 (or
 whatever named) project due to this and other lack of responce
 problems and the group is growing. The danger is already there and
 should not be ignored.

Why is this a danger?  This is one of the freedoms provided by free
software, which we work hard to promote.

-- 
 - mdz




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Bernhard R. Link
* Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030806 13:43]:
 On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200
 Bernhard R. Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing
  the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would
  be the lesser part).
 
 No, it would not.  It would be using another method of accessing an MTA. 
 Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web server,
 a secure web server and an ftp server.

Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a 
MTA. (And judging from the package-description, it's maintainer seems
to believe the same). In other words I demand beeing able so send a mail 
somewhere. (Which includes speaking SMTP, if one wants to reach 
arbitrary hosts). 

Hochachtungsvoll,
  Bernhard R. Link

-- 
Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing
an editor and a MTA.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Greenland
On 06-Aug-03, 02:06 (CDT), Eduard Bloch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on 
 mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta

Or better, 

Depends: ssmtp | mail-transport-agent

That way, if you don't have an MTA already, it will select a simple get
mail to a real MTA package, whose configuration will ask where's your
real MTA?

Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net




Re: python 2.2 - python 2.3 transition

2003-08-06 Thread Domenico Andreoli
hmmm.. just curious... why?

On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:18:53AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
 On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 10:31:53PM +0200, Matthias Klose wrote:
  Last weekend, python 2.3 was released.
  With the next python2.3 upload, python2.3 becomes the default python
  version.
 
 Am I the only one who has a disgusting reminiscence of netscape*.* packages
 every time python* is mentioned? :P
 


-[ Domenico Andreoli, aka cavok
 --[ http://filibusta.crema.unimi.it/~cavok/gpgkey.asc
   ---[ 3A0F 2F80 F79C 678A 8936  4FEE 0677 9033 A20E BC50




howto use chroot on merulo?

2003-08-06 Thread Domenico Andreoli
hi,

i need to build curl on ia64 to see why it fails the test phase.
i'm thinking to use merulo, the only machine which provides chroots
(i suppose) to compile stuff for sarge, but i never used chroots on
project machines.

any hint? i gave a glance to the developer reference but i didn't find
anything useful.

thanks
domenico

-[ Domenico Andreoli, aka cavok
 --[ http://filibusta.crema.unimi.it/~cavok/gpgkey.asc
   ---[ 3A0F 2F80 F79C 678A 8936  4FEE 0677 9033 A20E BC50


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Description: PGP signature


Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Marc Haber
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:41:20 -0400, Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:56:59AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote:
 I know of several DDs and non-DDs thinking about creating a Debian2 (or
 whatever named) project due to this and other lack of responce
 problems and the group is growing. The danger is already there and
 should not be ignored.

Why is this a danger?  This is one of the freedoms provided by free
software, which we work hard to promote.

But splitting the entire project is a freedom I would hate to see
exercised. In my opinion, things that threaten a project split to
happen should be avoided before the split happens.

Greetings
Marc

-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber  |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Karlsruhe, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom  | Fon: *49 721 966 32 15
Nordisch by Nature  | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fax: *49 721 966 31 29




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Andreas Barth
* Matt Zimmerman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 14:50]:
 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:56:59AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote:

  I know of several DDs and non-DDs thinking about creating a Debian2 (or
  whatever named) project due to this and other lack of responce
  problems and the group is growing. The danger is already there and
  should not be ignored.
 
 Why is this a danger?  This is one of the freedoms provided by free
 software, which we work hard to promote.

Because it would be a waste of work, time and energy.


Cheers,
Andi
-- 
   http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/
   PGP 1024/89FB5CE5  DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F  3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Matt Zimmerman
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:56:34PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:

 On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 08:41:20 -0400, Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:56:59AM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote:
  I know of several DDs and non-DDs thinking about creating a Debian2 (or
  whatever named) project due to this and other lack of responce
  problems and the group is growing. The danger is already there and
  should not be ignored.
 
 Why is this a danger?  This is one of the freedoms provided by free
 software, which we work hard to promote.
 
 But splitting the entire project is a freedom I would hate to see
 exercised. In my opinion, things that threaten a project split to
 happen should be avoided before the split happens.

Debian can't please everyone, any more than other projects can.  That is why
there are choices.

-- 
 - mdz




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Matt Zimmerman
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:33:38PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:

 * Matt Zimmerman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [030806 14:50]:
  Why is this a danger?  This is one of the freedoms provided by free
  software, which we work hard to promote.
 
 Because it would be a waste of work, time and energy.

Not if the projects have different goals.

-- 
 - mdz




About NM and Next Release

2003-08-06 Thread Halil Demirezen
I am currently on NM process. And as far as I know, there have been
totally over 700 developer of Debian officially. 

What I would like to point out here is, totally over the world claims 
that debian is being obsolete. New releases are so slow. Yes they are
partially right. However, with 700 maintainers, Debian is slow. We would
like to be a part of Debian through NM process. However, NM process 
cause a deeply undesireble emotions on  applicants because of 2-3
years wait duration. To me, opposing to the policies Debian is on 
progress to be a Mysterious box to the outside world. 

We believe we could be helpful. However, We are trying to be cut off
from that project. Totally this is agaist prejudice on Policies.. and
DFSG.

Debian Maintainers are becoming too elite. However, outside world becoming
more excluded. And Debian finally is becoming so obsolete.




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Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:07:40 -0400
Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Not if the projects have different goals.

If the goal is the same only the process to that goal is broken then it is
a waste of time and effort.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
---+-


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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Jesus Climent
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:01:51AM -0500, Steve Greenland wrote:
 
 Depends: ssmtp | mail-transport-agent
 
 That way, if you don't have an MTA already, it will select a simple get
 mail to a real MTA package, whose configuration will ask where's your
 real MTA?

Doesn't policy state that a virtual package must be listed before any real
package?

data

-- 
Jesus Climent | Unix SysAdm | Helsinki, Finland | pumuki.hispalinux.es
GPG: 1024D/86946D69 BB64 2339 1CAA 7064 E429  7E18 66FC 1D7F 8694 6D69
--
 Registered Linux user #66350 proudly using Debian Sid  Linux 2.4.21

El concepto es el concepto.
--Pazos (Airbag)




Re: howto use chroot on merulo?

2003-08-06 Thread Ricardo Javier Cardenes Medina
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:23:39PM +0200, Domenico Andreoli wrote:
 hi,
 
 i need to build curl on ia64 to see why it fails the test phase.
 i'm thinking to use merulo, the only machine which provides chroots
 (i suppose) to compile stuff for sarge, but i never used chroots on
 project machines.
 
 any hint? i gave a glance to the developer reference but i didn't find
 anything useful.

Use dchroot. Without arguments it prints usage and available chroots.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Langasek
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 06:51:12PM +1000, Brian May wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 09:35:29AM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
  IMHO using any local mailer is a bad idea on a desktop system. You send
  off the mail, your MUA says Sent, you power down or just close the
  laptop, and, if your smarthost happens to be a bit slow today, the mail
  sits there indefinitely.

 Unless it is something like SSMTP...

 SSMTP has no queue and sends E-Mail immediately to a smarthost.

And is a much better choice than expecting every user to locally
configure smtp settings in the MUA.  Lack of direct-SMTP support in mutt
is a good thing.

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Matt Zimmerman
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 07:14:00AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

 On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:07:40 -0400
 Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Not if the projects have different goals.
 
 If the goal is the same only the process to that goal is broken then it is
 a waste of time and effort.

I don't see your name on http://nm.debian.org/nmlist.php.  What part of the
process are you claiming is broken?

-- 
 - mdz




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Eduard Bloch
#include hallo.h
* Steve Greenland [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:01:51AM]:
  Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on 
  mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta
 
 Or better, 
 
 Depends: ssmtp | mail-transport-agent

Where is the point? OP did already know how to manage dependencies, he
can install ssmtp if he wanted to, but he doesn't. You just move the
choice a bit, I did in contrary suggest a solution for mutt and similar
MUA packages and users that have very custom wishes.

 That way, if you don't have an MTA already, it will select a simple get
 mail to a real MTA package, whose configuration will ask where's your
 real MTA?

I though the whole thread is about how to resolve dependencies without
having any MTA installed. You imagine that some newbie user wishes to
install mutt but has _intentionaly_ removed exim before and now needs
some help. Very unlikely, IMO.

MfG,
Eduard.
-- 
DeVries Wann kommt Debian3.0? Jemand n ungefähres oder genaues Datum parat?
Alfie DeVries: Wenn es fertig ist.
Falky dwVries wenn es fertig ist
weasel DeVries: ziemlich genau dann, wenn es fertig ist.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Eduard Bloch
#include hallo.h
* Steve Langasek [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 07:37:16AM]:
 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 10:52:37AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote:
  #include hallo.h
  * Colin Watson [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:36:25AM]:
 
Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on 
mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta

and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake no-user-mta package
with equivs.
 
   There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that
   provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install
   something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that.
 
  This OTOH may be dangerous, another packages that really rely on a
  working /usr/sbin/sendmail must be able to depend on
  mail-transport-agent and get one.
 
 Of course it's dangerous; overriding dependencies with the use of equivs
 is always a little sketchy.  But if you're this concerned about not
 having an MTA installed on your system (there are many choices in
 Debian, some of them quite lightweight), you must have a reason, right?

 a) It is not for me
 b) I did not tell to override _real_ dependencies. It is a virtuall
package with only one purpose and to be installed by users with 
special wishes.
 c) Having an MTA for other packages or not is not the point of the
discussion. It is allowing _few_ users to work around a dependency
which makes sence for everybody else, but is not really useful for
_those_ few users in their special environment.

MfG,
Eduard.

PS: a hot day or what? People feel a need to add sth. to the thread
without understanding the issue.
-- 
Gegenwärtiges Unglück verdau ich in wenig(en) Stunden; aber künftiges
bleibt mir im Magen liegen.
-- Jean Paul


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Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Peter Makholm
Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:07:40 -0400
 Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Not if the projects have different goals.

 If the goal is the same only the process to that goal is broken then it is
 a waste of time and effort.

Not if a new projects succedes in reaching that goal in a way superior
to how the present Debian reaches the goal.

Organizing a project from scratch can turn out to be the only way
change bureaucracy and infrastructure that may make the goal harder to
reach. Plan to throw one away can also be a good thing on the
organizatoinal level.

This is only abstract observations I'm not saying that Debian is in a
state where it is necessary. I have no ideas for how to change Debian
in a rational way whith the present goal as I see it.

-- 
 Peter Makholm |According to the hacker ethic, the meaning of life
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |is not Friday, but it is not Sunday either
 http://hacking.dk |  -- Peeka Himanen




Re: python 2.2 - python 2.3 transition

2003-08-06 Thread Chad Walstrom
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 11:18:53AM +0200, Josip Rodin wrote:
 Am I the only one who has a disgusting reminiscence of netscape*.*
 packages every time python* is mentioned? :P

On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 02:59:00PM +0200, Domenico Andreoli wrote:
 hmmm.. just curious... why?

The short of it: he's joking.  Note the smiley.  Even though package
names that have version numbers tends to bloat the archive, but there
really isn't a more graceful way for allowing two versions of the
software to exist on a system at the same time.  Josip knows this, hence
the smiley.

-- 
Chad Walstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.wookimus.net/
   assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */


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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Emile van Bergen
Hi,

On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:03:07PM +0200, Bernhard R. Link wrote:

 * Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030806 13:43]:
  On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200
  Bernhard R. Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing
   the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would
   be the lesser part).
  
  No, it would not.  It would be using another method of accessing an 
  MTA. 
  Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web 
  server,
  a secure web server and an ftp server.
 
 Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a 
 MTA. (And judging from the package-description, it's maintainer seems
 to believe the same). 

So netscape and pine, both of which contain an SMTP /client/, are MTAs??

Your definition does not seem to be shared by many people then.
Generally, an MTA is able to do the MX lookup, has a queue, and a few
methods of injecting messages into that queue, perhaps via
/usr/lib/sendmail -t or through SMTP.

I would not consider anything that contains a SMTP client an MTA. A
proxy that handles port 25 is no MTA either. Such strict definitions
('talks SMTP') are generally not very useful.

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies - Emile van Bergen   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153   http://www.e-advies.nl




Re: About NM and Next Release

2003-08-06 Thread Martijn van Oosterhout
I'm not commenting on the rest of the message but this:

On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 05:29:54PM +0300, Halil Demirezen wrote:
 What I would like to point out here is, totally over the world claims 
 that debian is being obsolete. New releases are so slow. Yes they are

Debian is dying. Linux is dying. The end of the world is nigh.

Things like this (including democracies) only die when people beleive it. As
long a people belive they're doing the right thing, the whole process is
self-sustaining.

Now, on with the regularly scheduled flamewar.

-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout   kleptog@svana.org   http://svana.org/kleptog/
 All that is needed for the forces of evil to triumph is for enough good
 men to do nothing. - Edmond Burke
 The penalty good people pay for not being interested in politics is to be
 governed by people worse than themselves. - Plato


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Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:30:11 -0400
Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I don't see your name on http://nm.debian.org/nmlist.php.  What part of the
 process are you claiming is broken?

I wasn't aware my name had to be on the list to recognize that some have
been there for years.  

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
---+-


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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:27:10 -0500
Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 And is a much better choice than expecting every user to locally
 configure smtp settings in the MUA.  Lack of direct-SMTP support in mutt
 is a good thing.

Yeah because entering smtp.isp.com is just so trying for most people. 
And what if the local user wants to use a remote SMTP server for some reason? 
H.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
---+-


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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Eduard Bloch
#include hallo.h
* Bernhard R. Link [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 03:03:07PM]:
 * Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030806 13:43]:
  On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200
  Bernhard R. Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing
   the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would
   be the lesser part).
  
  No, it would not.  It would be using another method of accessing an 
  MTA. 
  Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web 
  server,
  a secure web server and an ftp server.
 
 Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a 
 MTA. (And judging from the package-description, it's maintainer seems
 to believe the same). In other words I demand beeing able so send a mail 
 somewhere. (Which includes speaking SMTP, if one wants to reach 
 arbitrary hosts). 

But your statement was wrong, please reread it. MTA term (for my judgement)
implies some program which emulates the sendmail command to send Email
(and mutt does not, AFAIK, even if it can accept mail body from stdin)
to other hosts and to local users, while the local part of the transport
may also be implemented on the smarthost, eg. sharing /var/mail
directory and the user database some other system which also acts as the
ssmtp's smarthost.

MfG,
Eduard.
-- 
Ernährungstip: Spinat schmeckt am besten, wenn man ihn
kurz vor dem Verzehr durch ein Steak ersetzt.
-- Robert Wachinger




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Langasek
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:30:54PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote:
 #include hallo.h
 * Steve Langasek [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 07:37:16AM]:
  On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 10:52:37AM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote:
   #include hallo.h
   * Colin Watson [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 08:36:25AM]:
  
 Why not appease both? Let mutt depend on 
 mail-transport-agent | no-user-mta
 
 and tell such MTA hating users to create a fake no-user-mta package
 with equivs.
  
There's no point; it's just as easy to create a fake package that
provides mail-transport-agent with equivs. Or they could install
something tiny like nullmailer or ssmtp and leave it at that.

   This OTOH may be dangerous, another packages that really rely on a
   working /usr/sbin/sendmail must be able to depend on
   mail-transport-agent and get one.

  Of course it's dangerous; overriding dependencies with the use of equivs
  is always a little sketchy.  But if you're this concerned about not
  having an MTA installed on your system (there are many choices in
  Debian, some of them quite lightweight), you must have a reason, right?

  a) It is not for me
  b) I did not tell to override _real_ dependencies. It is a virtuall
 package with only one purpose and to be installed by users with 
 special wishes.
  c) Having an MTA for other packages or not is not the point of the
 discussion. It is allowing _few_ users to work around a dependency
 which makes sence for everybody else, but is not really useful for
 _those_ few users in their special environment.

 PS: a hot day or what? People feel a need to add sth. to the thread
 without understanding the issue.

You tell me.  Why is it so important to *prevent* the installation of an
MTA on such a machine when installing mutt?

99% of our users are going to want to send outgoing mail from their
mailreader.  A package that contains multiple binaries must depend on
every library those binaries link against, even if a particular library
is only needed by one seldom-used application to provide functionality
that a small fraction of users would consider useful.  If that's a
dependency, why would an MTA not be a dependency?  At the packaging
level, the two situations are analogous: in both cases, the packages are
usable for /some/ activities without the dependency in question.

Why is I don't /really/ want my MUA to be able to send mail a more
sensible position than I don't /really/ want atd to notify me about job
status?

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer


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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Greenland
On 06-Aug-03, 09:18 (CDT), Jesus Climent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:01:51AM -0500, Steve Greenland wrote:
  
  Depends: ssmtp | mail-transport-agent
  
  That way, if you don't have an MTA already, it will select a simple get
  mail to a real MTA package, whose configuration will ask where's your
  real MTA?
 
 Doesn't policy state that a virtual package must be listed before any real
 package?

Other way around. That allows you to state a preference in resolving the 
virtual package.

Steve


-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net




Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Ian Hickson
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:

 Or perhaps the poster should know the policy on Debian lists which is
 _not_ to Cc unless explicitly requested.

Noted. I was unaware of this, having not seen any mention of this policy
when I subscribed.

My apologies for any inconvenience caused.

-- 
Ian Hickson  )\._.,--,'``.fL
meow  /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
http://index.hixie.ch/ `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'




Re: About NM and Next Release

2003-08-06 Thread Eduard Bloch
#include hallo.h
* Halil Demirezen [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 05:29:54PM]:

 We believe we could be helpful. However, We are trying to be cut off

What makes you believe this? Many people helped Debian development on
critical points like boot-floppies and debian-installer development
_without_ beeing a DD and without permanent bitching about their state -
but somehow I cannot found YOUR name among them.

The same is with many other RC bugs. You can make a package update, send
the diff to the BTS and retitle the bug report, appending Maintainer
MIA, NMU required, for example. All this things are possible w/o having
a c00l @d.o mail addy.

 Debian Maintainers are becoming too elite. However, outside world becoming
 more excluded. And Debian finally is becoming so obsolete.

Interessting analysis. Many things that hold up the release can only be
solved by active and experienced maintainers since the packages are often
essential. New developers can help maintaining them in cooperation with
main developer and get the experience after some time and reading of the
policy, developers reference, lib packaging guide, etc, but having a
sponsor between them and the upload queue is still better.

MfG,
Eduard.
-- 
Ein Kerl wie ein Baum - sie nannten ihn Bonsai


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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
I do not need CCs.  I am obviously active on the list.

On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:28:52 +0800
Cameron Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:04:00AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
 It is if they have to dig up what the correct SMTP server is.  Or if
 they're on a laptop whose correct local SMTP server changes as a
 function of time.

How many local users are you going to have on a laptop whose correct SMTP
server changes as a function of their location?
 
 | And what if the local user wants to use a remote SMTP server for some
 reason? 
 
 They are welcome to configure ssmtp or exim to forward to a smarthost.
 This has the additional advantage that there's only /one/ point where
 the outgoing SMTP server needs to be specified, and if it changes later,
 there is only one program that needs to be reconfigured.

Oddly enough I only have one program for that now.  Sylpheed-Claws. 
Fortunately it can do something that most SMTP servers can't without some
rather painful configuration: send mail through different SMTP servers based
on the account from which the mail was sent.

Hell, if you want to get technical about it I could do that without an MTA
easily enough.  Tell them to use mail as the smtp server, edit resolv.conf
and have mail resolve to whatever server they need to send to.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
---+-


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Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Josip Rodin
On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 10:17:24AM -0400, Nathanael Nerode wrote:
 Martin Schulze is also the Press Contact, so I certainly hope he has good
 communication skills!

/me goes and yanks Joey's chain some more :o)

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Emile van Bergen
Hi,

On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 04:36:36PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote:

 #include hallo.h
 * Bernhard R. Link [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 03:03:07PM]:
  * Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030806 13:43]:
   On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200
   Bernhard R. Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing
the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would
be the lesser part).
   
   No, it would not.  It would be using another method of accessing an 
   MTA. 
   Just because Mozilla speaks HTTP, HTTPS and FTP doesn't make it a web 
   server,
   a secure web server and an ftp server.
  
  Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a 
  MTA. (And judging from the package-description, it's maintainer seems
  to believe the same). In other words I demand beeing able so send a mail 
  somewhere. (Which includes speaking SMTP, if one wants to reach 
  arbitrary hosts). 
 
 But your statement was wrong, please reread it. MTA term (for my judgement)
 implies some program which emulates the sendmail command to send Email
 (and mutt does not, AFAIK, even if it can accept mail body from stdin)
 to other hosts and to local users, while the local part of the transport
 may also be implemented on the smarthost, eg. sharing /var/mail
 directory and the user database some other system which also acts as the
 ssmtp's smarthost.

You're right, it /is/ a hot day. Sorry. I agree with your definition.

Cheers,


Emile.

-- 
E-Advies - Emile van Bergen   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
tel. +31 (0)70 3906153   http://www.e-advies.nl




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Josip Rodin
On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 11:44:11AM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote:
If he doesn't want to, the DPL should really do something.
 
   Such as...?
 
  I think he's saying that the DPL should 'delegate his DAM power' to
  somebody else. The DAMs are after all officially appointed by the DPL...
 
 Quite.  And who is he going to delegate it to?

Himself, for example? He already does work on that front, he's certainly a
trusted developer judging by the vote results (and there's no such record
for any other officers, mind you), and in fact he said he helped James add
some people already (IIRC there were over a dozen added that time).

I don't see how could any other leader-related task be possibly more
important than pretty much gracefully resolving an issue that's been
plaguing us for the last several years.

I see how it could be construed as a conflict of interest[1], but it's
not like the process doesn't have plenty of means to prevent that.

[1] I can see it now... tbm adding gobs of his peons to the project and
voting to add Barbara Livi worship as 6th clause of the social contract! :)

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Josip Rodin
On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 07:03:11PM +0300, Kalle Kivimaa wrote:
  with.  The MIA problem is significant enough that NM might be the only
  way to tackle with it seriously.  That means taking time to examine
  applications.
 
 BTW, has anybody done any research into what types of package
 maintainers tend to go MIA? I would be especially interested in a
 percentage of old style DD's, DD's who have gone through the NM
 process, people going MIA while in the NM queue, and people going MIA
 without ever even entering the NM queue. I'll try to do the statistics
 myself if nobody has done it before.

I did some quick checking in the echelon a few weeks back and noticed a
linear curve in how the number of MIA maintainers decreases with time.
Meaning that among the first 100 developers, something like 15% are missing;
among the fifth 100, 10%, and 5% in the tenth 100, or so (I don't remember
exactly). This information is probably not worth much per se, though.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Josip Rodin
On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 06:36:10PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
   Totally true. That's e.g. the reason why announcing the removal of old
   RFPs didn't appear in debian-devel-announce where it would have
   belonged - the submission was rejected by the moderators for the
   formal reason I'm not a DD.
 
  Did you even try to find a DD to sign it for you?
 
 Sign for what?
 
 I got a rejection mail on my try to post on d-d-a. This mail said
 clearly that I should post to d-d instead, and I followed this
 instructions.
 
 (As I would really liked something on d-d-a I asked at the beginning
 of my mail to d-d whether a DD could send a pointer to d-d-a.)

Hence you understood my point in the explanation of the rejection message.
That nobody did so is a different issue.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.




Re: About NM and Next Release

2003-08-06 Thread Glenn McGrath
Debians greatest strength is in its community, that includes dd's and
non dd's.

If we are organised in such a way that we are alienating non dd's the we
are operating in a diminished state.

Debian is but a shadow of what it could be.



Glenn




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Josip Rodin
On Tue, Jul 22, 2003 at 12:31:44AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
   I didn't know that only DD could post on d-d-a. But to be honest, I
   would have expected that one of the list managers would adopt my
   message without much words if it is ok to post. As this didn't happen,
   I interpreted it so that the list managers don't want my mail to
   appear there and followed the instructions without any further ado. I
   just want to resolve problems, and not make formal ping-pongs.
 
  You probably got an automated reply.
 
 I've never seen before an automated reply with User-Agent: mutt/[...].
 No, the rejection was not automated (there were also other signs of
 human edited, as a quotation line).

Heh :) If I hadn't responded to it manually, it would have gotten ignored
as spam (nobody cared enough to write a nice formail -r message because it
happens rarely enough and the spambounces would waste us more resources).

Any other developer can sign your mail and let it through. Us listmaster
people have plenty to do without having to deal with content of the mailing
lists like this -- there's gobs of people that need assistance with stuff
only we can help them with (manual searches for subscribed address, and then
forced (un)subscription) so we tend to spend time doing that instead.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.




Re: python 2.2 - python 2.3 transition

2003-08-06 Thread Josip Rodin
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 09:33:26AM -0500, Chad Walstrom wrote:
   Am I the only one who has a disgusting reminiscence of netscape*.*
   packages every time python* is mentioned? :P
 
  hmmm.. just curious... why?
 
 The short of it: he's joking.  Note the smiley.  Even though package
 names that have version numbers tends to bloat the archive, but there
 really isn't a more graceful way for allowing two versions of the
 software to exist on a system at the same time.  Josip knows this, hence
 the smiley.

Yes. It's also a smiley with the tongue out, meaning I'm actually saddened
by the end-result of the situation and resort to joking out of sheer
desperation.

-- 
 2. That which causes joy or happiness.




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Andreas Jellinghaus
 Joe Average User would most probably be pissed if he installed mutt but
 doesn't have an MTA and then tries to send mail.  That would take us back
 into the old days of Slackware.

Joe Average User has to follow the recommendation, since he
doesn't know the details. If he decides to do things different
from what is recommended, he is lost anyway.

Recommends is a recommendation. Mutt should recommend MTA, not
depend. (actualy with the SMTP patch there is no reason to
recommend an MTA.)

shouldn't some debian base packet include /usr/sbin/sendmail
with the lovest possible priority as alternative: a shell
script that fails always and asks you to install some
mail-transport-agent?

or require users to have some clue, and not be able to find
out that a missing /usr/sbin/sendmail means that no MTA is
installed.

Whatever you do, creating fake packages is a road to desaster
and not a clean option.

Andreas




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Bernhard R. Link
* Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030806 17:04]:
 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 03:03:07PM +0200, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
  * Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] [030806 13:43]:
   On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:03 +0200
   Bernhard R. Link [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If mutt spoke SMTP, it would be a MTA itself. (Perhaps still missing
the proper interface to link /usr/lib/sendmail to mutt, but that would
be the lesser part).

  Perhaps we disagree what MTA means. I consider for example ssmpt to be a 
  MTA. 
 
 So netscape and pine, both of which contain an SMTP /client/, are MTAs??

They have something like an integrated MTA. All I miss there is
to accept a mail in the used form when invoked as /usr/{sbin,lib}/sendmail.
(which is really not that much compared to smtp handling)

Hochachtungsvoll,
  Bernhard R. Link

-- 
Sendmail is like emacs: A nice operating system, but missing
an editor and a MTA.




Re: Should this be filed as grave? Gcc-2.95

2003-08-06 Thread Branden Robinson
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 03:32:59PM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
 I don't take kindly to software installing other software without a
 clear need and there simply was no clear need.

Well, now, why don'tcha run 'em outta town, Tex?

(IMO, the kernel ignoring $(CC) is the kernel's problem.)

-- 
G. Branden Robinson|  To stay young requires unceasing
Debian GNU/Linux   |  cultivation of the ability to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |  unlearn old falsehoods.
http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |  -- Robert Heinlein


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Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Oohara Yuuma
On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:38:19 +0200,
Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You know, I think these are actually good suggestions. I think there's a
 lot to be gained *not* by dumbing down, *not* by losing any information
 that might be useful to a geek or to a new user as (s)he's learning, but
 by phrasing texts so that they appeal more to generally intelligent
 human beings, rather than to people that just happen to have some
 specific knowledge.
Sometimes jargon is more understandable for a non-native speaker
because it has a very narrow sense.

-- 
Oohara Yuuma [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian developer
PGP key (key ID F464A695) http://www.interq.or.jp/libra/oohara/pub-key.txt
Key fingerprint = 6142 8D07 9C5B 159B C170  1F4A 40D6 F42E F464 A695

Er, let's get into all the messes of the parliament.
--- shinichiro.h, diary 2003/3/24 parliamentary bullet-dodging system




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Brian Kimball
Eduard Bloch wrote:

 It is allowing _few_ users to work around a dependency
 which makes sence for everybody else, but is not really useful for
 _those_ few users in their special environment.

What few users?

What special environment?

Can anyone provide a real world example of a Debian system that will
have mutt but no mta (or other package that depends on an mta)?

This is all seems very contrived.




Re: About NM and Next Release

2003-08-06 Thread Noah L. Meyerhans
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 05:29:54PM +0300, Halil Demirezen wrote:
 Debian Maintainers are becoming too elite. However, outside world becoming
 more excluded. And Debian finally is becoming so obsolete.

Everybody has an opinion on this matter.  I don't usually even bother
posting mine, but here goes anyway

Your conclusion that long DAM wait times leads to slow releases has
little or no basis in fact.  You do not need to have completed the NM
process to contribute to Debian.  In fact, I believe the whole DAM
process would be more effective if we *required* that you made
non-trivial contributions to Debian *before* the DAM would create an
account for you.

Additionally (strictly my opinion here, others will undoubtedly
disagree), I believe that Debian's long release times are caused by it
being too big, rather than not big enough.  Too many developers, too
many packages, too many architectures, all that.  There are signs that
others feel the same way (e.g. the number of people who complain every
time somebody submits an ITP for yet another web based image gallery or
something like that seems to be going up).

So, if you want to see Debian release sooner, go fix some RC bugs.  You
don't need to have completed the NM process to do that, and doing that
might actually help you get through the NM process quicker.

noah




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Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Jon Dowland
On Tue, Aug 05, 2003 at 09:55:59AM -0700, Ian Hickson wrote:
 
 I receieved the machine with Debian preinstalled and no offline
 documentation except a post it note with the root username and password.
 On other systems (Mac OS X, Windows XP, etc) I am clearly shown where to
 look for more information (on Windows, in fact, the OS goes to the other
 extreme and tries to ram help down your throat), but on Debian, there was
 no clear path to the documentation.

Since your debian distribution seems to be non-standard (a blend of
stable/testing/unstable); it would seem only appropriate for your vendor
to have supplied some information regarding where you may trip up from
looking at conventional sources. Thus a large part of your difficulty
can be attributed to them, rather than debian.

-- 
Jon Dowland




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Hans Fugal
I don't pretend to know what is best for all users, but as a fairly
ordinary mutt user I can tell you that I would be unhappy to find out
that Debian patched mutt to do SMTP just so they could have a warm fuzzy
feeling about the depends. I like mutt the way it is: no SMTP.

New mutt users might be slightly confused by the mutt way of doing
things but that doesn't mean we have to patch mutt for their sakes.
Naturally, it's up to the package maintainer how to differ from
upstream, but this mutt user would be miffed.

-- 
 Hans Fugal | De gustibus non disputandum est.
 http://hans.fugal.net/ | Debian, vim, mutt, ruby, text, gpg
 http://gdmxml.fugal.net/   | WindowMaker, gaim, UTF-8, RISC, JS Bach
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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
* Steve Lamb 

| How many local users are you going to have on a laptop whose correct SMTP
| server changes as a function of their location?

Usually: one, I guess.

| Oddly enough I only have one program for that now.  Sylpheed-Claws. 
| Fortunately it can do something that most SMTP servers can't without some
| rather painful configuration: send mail through different SMTP servers based
| on the account from which the mail was sent.

Why do you want to do that?

| Hell, if you want to get technical about it I could do that without
| an MTA easily enough.  Tell them to use mail as the smtp server,
| edit resolv.conf and have mail resolve to whatever server they
| need to send to.

Then you'd have to restart the program each time you change
resolv.conf due to a stupidity in glibc.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  




Re: How to install X-Chat in five hours (or more)

2003-08-06 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
* Ian Hickson 

| On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
| 
|  Or perhaps the poster should know the policy on Debian lists which is
|  _not_ to Cc unless explicitly requested.
| 
| Noted. I was unaware of this, having not seen any mention of this policy
| when I subscribed.

http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/index.html#codeofconduct

(Linked to from the top of lists.debian.org, «please see the
introduction to Debian mailing lists [...]»)

| My apologies for any inconvenience caused.

No harm done. :)

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Matt Zimmerman
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:01:55AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

 On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:30:11 -0400
 Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I don't see your name on http://nm.debian.org/nmlist.php.  What part of the
  process are you claiming is broken?
 
 I wasn't aware my name had to be on the list to recognize that some have
 been there for years.  

And neither does the fact that some have been there for years indicate
anything in particular.

You need some familiarity with the process, or else the individual
situations of the applicants, in order to claim that their status is unjust.

-- 
 - mdz




Re: Should this be filed as grave? Gcc-2.95

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:26:12 -0500
Branden Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 (IMO, the kernel ignoring $(CC) is the kernel's problem.)

One problem doesn't excuse the other.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
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Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Adam Majer
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 12:40:21PM +0200, Goswin Brederlow wrote:
 Tollef Fog Heen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  * Adam Majer 
  
  | My definition of MIA for DD: Doesn't fix release critical bugs for
  | his/her package(s) within a week or two and doesn't respond to
  | direct emails about those bugs.
  
  I guess I'm MIA, then, since I have an RC bug which is 156 days (or
  so) old, which is waiting for upstream to rewrite the program.
 
 Taged forwarded?

When you have maintain a package, shouldn't you be able to fix
it yourself?

IMHO, people should not package or take over a package that they
do not understand how it works. For example, a kernel maintainer
should be a kernel developer. Or a Qt maintainer, should at 
least use Qt on dailly basis - preferably both commercially and/or 
for free software.

People should maintain packages they are qualified to maintain
and not becuase it would be neat to package that!.

Sometimes you get really hairy bugs that even qualified 
developers would have trouble to fix... then you need to holer
for help until somone helps... Isn't there a tag for
Help Wanted or something?

- Adam




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Eduard Bloch
#include hallo.h
* Steve Langasek [Wed, Aug 06 2003, 10:10:06AM]:

 You tell me.  Why is it so important to *prevent* the installation of an
 MTA on such a machine when installing mutt?
 
 99% of our users are going to want to send outgoing mail from their
 mailreader.  A package that contains multiple binaries must depend on
 every library those binaries link against, even if a particular library
 is only needed by one seldom-used application to provide functionality
 that a small fraction of users would consider useful.  If that's a
 dependency, why would an MTA not be a dependency?  At the packaging

Hey, don't ask me but the OP. Apparently, there are following options:

 - do not depend on mail-transport-agent (but we agree that it normally
   useful)
 - depend on mail-transport-agent in the MUA package; the only way for
   the mentioned small fraction is to use equivs and fake
   mail-transport-agengt which is not so wise solution because other
   packages depending on m-t-a may really need the sendmail command
 - depend on m-t-a and allow an alternative virtual package (my
   proposal) with m-t-a as the first alternative and the fake package as
   another alternative. This would allow MUAs (without need for
   sendmail) to be installed by such users but pull a real m-t-a for
   potential new users

So, I hope my last 0.02.

MfG,
Eduard.
-- 
Letzte Worte eines Zoowrters:
  Der Lwe ist nicht hungrig.


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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:48:29 -0600
Hans Fugal [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 New mutt users might be slightly confused by the mutt way of doing
 things but that doesn't mean we have to patch mutt for their sakes.
 Naturally, it's up to the package maintainer how to differ from
 upstream, but this mutt user would be miffed.

Why?  It would in no way alter how you do things.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
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Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Andreas Metzler
Morgon Kanter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 This one time, at band camp, Martin Schulze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I agree.  The main functionality of Mutt is to read *and* send mail.
 Being able to only read mail archives is not the main functionality
 but a backup functionality.  To be able to provide the main
 functionality, an MTA is required, hence a dependency.

 What if the MTA is on a different host? Can't mutt speak SMTP?

No. A fact that has been noted in this thread several times already.
   cu andreas




Re: Should MUA only Recommend mail-transfer-agent?

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:50:21 +0200
Tollef Fog Heen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 * Steve Lamb 
 | How many local users are you going to have on a laptop whose correct
 SMTP| server changes as a function of their location?
 
 Usually: one, I guess.

So 1 person, 1 location to change.

 | Oddly enough I only have one program for that now.  Sylpheed-Claws. 
 | Fortunately it can do something that most SMTP servers can't without some
 | rather painful configuration: send mail through different SMTP servers
 based| on the account from which the mail was sent.
 
 Why do you want to do that?

Imagine being at work, polling mail from home and then wanting to send
mail back out.  If the computer, say the laptop, is configured to forward to
work mail now you're using the company server to send out personal mail.  Even
forgiving the whole idea of Ya'll shouldn't do that on the clock because
people do have lunch breaks and so on some companies archive all mail that
travels through their servers.  Do you want your private mail ending up in the
company archives for several years?  I don't.

Conversely while at home and answering work mail, presumably on the same
machine, you'd want the mail to hit the corporate SMTP server first.  Why? 
Because of the archives above.  If you're communicating with an off-site
contact and skip the corporate server their archives are incomplete.

With this dual system you'd want mail from account A to go to SMTP server
A, mail from account B to go to SMTP server B regardless of location.

 | Hell, if you want to get technical about it I could do that without
 | an MTA easily enough.  Tell them to use mail as the smtp server,
 | edit resolv.conf and have mail resolve to whatever server they
 | need to send to.
 
 Then you'd have to restart the program each time you change
 resolv.conf due to a stupidity in glibc.

Given the number of times people have to switch SMTP servers I don't think
this is an issue worth worrying about.  Certainly worth mentioning, but not
much more.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
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Re: Should this be filed as grave? Gcc-2.95

2003-08-06 Thread Adam Heath
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003, Branden Robinson wrote:

 (IMO, the kernel ignoring $(CC) is the kernel's problem.)

Don't you know your O doesn't matter, only Steve's?




Re: NM non-process

2003-08-06 Thread Steve Lamb
On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:56:20 -0400
Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 08:01:55AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
  On Wed, 6 Aug 2003 10:30:11 -0400
  Matt Zimmerman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   I don't see your name on http://nm.debian.org/nmlist.php.  What part of
   the process are you claiming is broken?
 
  I wasn't aware my name had to be on the list to recognize that some
  have been there for years.  
 
 And neither does the fact that some have been there for years indicate
 anything in particular.

Actually, I think it does.  They should either be accepted or rejected
within x days.  x being somewhere below rand(20) * 365.  Either they are in,
rejected, or the application closed because of a lack of interest on the
developer's part.

 You need some familiarity with the process, or else the individual
 situations of the applicants, in order to claim that their status is unjust.

No, I never said their status was unjust.  I said the process appears
broken.  Two completely different statements.  I cannot think of any
conceivable justification for ANY application to be present for years.  That
has nothing to do with just or unjust.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
   |-- Lenny Nero - Strange Days
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Re: About NM and Next Release

2003-08-06 Thread Francesco Paolo Lovergine
On Wed, Aug 06, 2003 at 05:10:24PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote:
 Interessting analysis. Many things that hold up the release can only be
 solved by active and experienced maintainers since the packages are often
 essential. New developers can help maintaining them in cooperation with
 main developer and get the experience after some time and reading of the
 policy, developers reference, lib packaging guide, etc, but having a
 sponsor between them and the upload queue is still better.
 

Someone should point NMs to difficulty of entering the development
mainstream of FreeBSD or becoming maintainer for the kernel... 
IMO it's generally too easy entering in Debian.

-- 
Francesco P. Lovergine




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