Bug#284283: ITP: fairuse -- spam filter based on sender identity verification
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: fairuse Version : x.y.z Upstream Author : Name [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://www.example.org/ * License : Free for non-commercial use Description : spam filter based on sender identity verification Subject to license verification (DFSG compliant): FairUCE is a spam filter that prevents spam from reaching the recipient's inbox by verifying the identity of the sender. It will stop the vast majority of spam without the use of a content filter, and without requiring a probable spam or bulk folder that needs to be checked periodically. -- System Information: Debian Release: 3.1 APT prefers testing APT policy: (500, 'testing') Architecture: All Kernel: Linux 2.4.27-1-686 Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C
Bug#284285: ITP: fairuce -- Spam filter based on sender identity verification
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: fairuce Version : x.y.z Upstream Author : ghamilt at us dot ibm dot com * URL : http://www.example.org/ * License : Free for non-commercial use Description : Spam filter based on sender identity verification FairUCE is a spam filter that prevents spam from reaching the recipient's inbox by verifying the identity of the sender. It will stop the vast majority of spam without the use of a content filter, and without requiring a probable spam or bulk folder that needs to be checked periodically. -- System Information: Debian Release: 3.1 APT prefers testing APT policy: (500, 'testing') Architecture: any Kernel: Linux 2.4.27-1-686 Locale: LANG=C, LC_CTYPE=C
Re: Bug#284283: ITP: fairuse -- spam filter based on sender identity verification
* Stephen Birch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041205 09:10]: Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: fairuse Version : x.y.z Upstream Author : Name [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://www.example.org/ If you don't mind to update this information, it might be good :) * License : Free for non-commercial use means non-free, right? Description : spam filter based on sender identity verification Subject to license verification (DFSG compliant): FairUCE is a spam filter that prevents spam from reaching the recipient's inbox by verifying the identity of the sender. It will stop the vast majority of spam without the use of a content filter, and without requiring a probable spam or bulk folder that needs to be checked periodically. Is the name FairUCE or fairuse? And, what is the major advantage over e.g. using SPF? (In other words: In which way is the verification done?) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: Bug#284285: ITP: fairuce -- Spam filter based on sender identity verification
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 12:07:05AM -0800, Stephen Birch wrote: Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: fairuce Version : x.y.z Upstream Author : ghamilt at us dot ibm dot com * URL : http://www.example.org/ * License : Free for non-commercial use Description : Spam filter based on sender identity verification FairUCE is a spam filter that prevents spam from reaching the recipient's inbox by verifying the identity of the sender. It will stop By what mechanism? thanks, Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
charsets in debian/control
We seem to be moving to a de facto standard of UTF-8 for non-ASCII characters in debian/control files. This is not specified in Policy [1], but for hopefully obvious reasons, consistency is a Good Thing, and UTF-8 seems to be the best solution for this sort of thing. In my sid control files, I see 841 lines with non-ASCII characters, mostly (761 lines) in Maintainer and Uploaders fields: perl -ne 'print if m/[\x80-\xff]/' /var/lib/apt/lists/* | wc -l Of these, 747 lines are UTF-8 and 94 lines are not.[2] I hate to suggest a mass bug filing (33 source packages), since it's a mere de facto standard. And I'm certainly not in the mood to campaign for a Policy amendment. But it would be a Good Thing to aim for consistency here. Current UI tools (dpkg, dselect, apt-cache, aptitude) seem to know nothing about character sets, and just pass characters verbatim to the terminal, but one can easily imagine a tool that would convert to a user's local character set when possible. I suggest that the affected source packages[3] be run through the command 'iconv -f ORIGINAL_CHARSET -t utf-8' as soon as convenient. Would people support a mass bug at minor severity? Peter [1] Note that UTF-8 *is* recommended for debian/changelog. http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ap-pkg-sourcepkg.html#s-pkg-dpkgchangelog [2] It is easy to tell if text is UTF-8 or not; I use the exit status of iconv -f utf-8 -t utf-8. This gives very few false positives, because UTF-8 has a very strict format. [3] abcm2ps freecraft maint-guide ap-utilsgl-117 movixmaker-2 appunti-informatica-libera glade-perl mozilla-locale-hu ayuda gnustep-icons myspell-sv boa gridlockntfsdoc boa-constructor gtkdiskfree pdftohtml bombermaze gtodo pdp bonsai irispyca cadubi itcl3 pyro cantus kernel-patch-2.4.26-s390pythoncad coq-doc kernel-patch-2.4.27-s390rat crafted krb4strategoxt darkstatlg-issue46 sympa ddclientlibcgi-validate-perlsyslog-ng doc-linux-html-pt libconfig-general-perl tuxeyes doc-linux-text-pt libexporter-lite-perl unac drpythonlibtext-unaccent-perl wmblob elmolibuniversal-exports-perl wmnetmon fcmplinux-ntfs wordtrans fortunes-fr linux-tutorial-es wprint fortunes-it signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: charsets in debian/control
[Peter Samuelson] I suggest that the affected source packages[3] be run through the command 'iconv -f ORIGINAL_CHARSET -t utf-8' as soon as convenient. Ehhh, I see I have already ruined my credibility by pasting the wrong source package list. The real list is much shorter. Apologies, Peter ap-utilsglade-perl maint-guide appunti-informatica-libera irismyspell-sv ayuda itcl3 pdp cadubi kernel-patch-2.4.26-s390pyca cantus kernel-patch-2.4.27-s390rat crafted krb4strategoxt doc-linux-html-pt lg-issue46 sympa doc-linux-text-pt libcgi-validate-perlsyslog-ng elmolibexporter-lite-perl wmnetmon fcmplibuniversal-exports-perl wordtrans fortunes-it linux-tutorial-es wprint signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#284285: ITP: fairuce -- Spam filter based on sender identity verification
* Hamish Moffatt: FairUCE is a spam filter that prevents spam from reaching the recipient's inbox by verifying the identity of the sender. It will stop By what mechanism? According to the AlphaWorks article, it's mostly a challenge-response system which suppresses the CR mechanism if some DNS entries look legit.
Re: Legal budget and Director-and-officer insurance related to packages with adult themes
On Sat, Dec 04, 2004 at 07:14:07PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: Andrew Suffield wrote: Oh come on, they're at far greater risk from our overly-permissive approach to copyright and patent issues. The copyright and patent problems faced by Debian are issues that we have studied in depth. Indeed, working on that has taken up a good deal of my life for the past several years. We have resources lined up to help us when it becomes a problem. In contrast, those resources aren't inclined to help us with the questionable-material problem, and we have not researched it at all. If we're going to make a stand about it, we'd better start learning. You go off and do that then, and leave the rest of us out of it like you did with the much more serious issue of copyright and patent laws. You evidently managed it once without any money (since we haven't got any), so clearly you can do it again. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#284283: ITP: fairuse -- spam filter based on sender identity verification
On Sat, Dec 04, 2004 at 11:51:29PM -0800, Stephen Birch wrote: * License : Free for non-commercial use Subject to license verification (DFSG compliant): Non-commercial-use-only licenses are non-free. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#284283: ITP: fairuse -- spam filter based on sender identity verification
Andrew Suffield([EMAIL PROTECTED])@2004-12-05 09:55: Non-commercial-use-only licenses are non-free. Yup. Sigh. I closed the ITP. It turned out there were several problems with the package: 1. License not DFSG 2. Coded in Java (I dont do Java) 3. IBM sign up required to access upstream Is someone else wants to get past the above problems, go for it!! :-) Steve
Re: Bug#284283: ITP: fairuse -- spam filter based on sender identity verification
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 02:23, Andreas Barth wrote: * Stephen Birch ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041205 09:10]: FairUCE is a spam filter that prevents spam from reaching the recipient's inbox by verifying the identity of the sender. It will stop the vast majority of spam without the use of a content filter, and without requiring a probable spam or bulk folder that needs to be checked periodically. Is the name FairUCE or fairuse? And, what is the major advantage over e.g. using SPF? (In other words: In which way is the verification done?) I dug up https://secure.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/fairuce: FairUCE tries to find a relationship between the envelope sender's domain and the IP address of the client... If such a relationship cannot be found, FairUCE attempts to find one by sending a user-customizable challenge/response... A future version will incorporate Sender Policy Framework (SPF) or similar sender identification systems... So not only does it fail to stop spam in any useful way, it doesn't even fail to do so according to the standard, and it sends out more email noise while doing so. -- Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: charsets in debian/control
[Peter Samuelson] We seem to be moving to a de facto standard of UTF-8 for non-ASCII characters in debian/control files. This is not specified in Policy [1], but for hopefully obvious reasons, consistency is a Good Thing, and UTF-8 seems to be the best solution for this sort of thing. Some will argue that only ASCII is acceptable in debian/control files. I am not one of these. I agree that we should standardise on UTF-8 for both the changelog and the control file (and the copyright file, for the upstream author and package author names). We need to be able to correctly represent the names of people, and it can not be done using ASCII only. Good to see that most packages already uses UTF-8. I hope the packages using other charsets can be converted to UTF-8 as soon as possible.
Re: Questionable image process. Was: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- (abusive?) erotic images in Debian
On Sat, Dec 04, 2004 at 04:31:03PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: David Weinehall wrote: You *really* need to have a look at the pictures. All of your argumentation below about pron neatly goes *wooosh*. I'll take your word. However, we seem to be lacking some process here. I don't have a guideline at hand regarding what can and can not be distributed to minors, with impunity, in various places. Lacking that, we should probably have a procedure in place to run any questionable images and dialogue by our volunteer counsel simply to get a call regarding how much trouble they could make for the project and its members. The goal is to be able to say that we distributed the image on advice of counsel, which can help us if the image gets us in court later on. You're looking at this from a US-centric viewpoint, Bruce, and extending this to the whole Project. We have these flamewars erupt every now and again - remember deity/apt or the purity package? - but they never achieve anything. Somewhere else in the thread I made the point that people have to respect each other and that everyone using Debian is subject to local laws. Advice of US counsel means very little. There are 50 states in the Union plus Puerto Rico and US dependencies - that's US law and even then, I doubt you'd get consensus from a lawyer in each state. Then there's Federal law. I trained as an English lawyer twenty odd years ago: but, relatively locally, I'd have to deal with three sets of Channel Islands, Northern Ireland, Scotland, the Isle of Man and Gibraltar - all different jurisdictions subject, broadly, to similar legal provisions. Then there's EU law :( Obscenity in England is, effectively, that which is likely to deprave and corrupt - there is no absolute standard and each case is taken on its merits. I wouldn't like to second-guess which side of the line each Debian package may fall - but would be more than happy to suggest caution and common sense where appropriate. No one is _forced_ to install any Debian package outside the barest minimum: any package installation is normally a conscious act of choice: if warned, they can make a more appropriate decision for them and their circumstances. There is no appropriate international guideline on what can be distributed to minors. In Germany and Brazil, you've to watch out for all games. In England, most minors are probably OK with most games. In Germany/Austria/France I'd have to watch out for Nazi imagery. Images of bare-breasted women dancers might be OK in Swaziland - but out for much of the rest of the world ... Tag package descriptions: hot-babe : Contains cartoon imagery which may offend some users. Discretion advised. Work out a mirror exclusion mechanism. Ask local users most likely to be affected. This does not cast moral judgments on the suitability or otherwise of each individual package for Debian as a whole but may influence what individuals are safe putting on their machines. I have to think about this every time I update a machine at work - do I put on fortunes-off - probably not. If I install the GIMP for an appropriate purpose and it inadvertently contains a questionable image as an example buried somewhere obscure, I'm not as worried: my co-workers are adults, I can demonstrate a business case for installing/using GIMP and the primary purpose of GIMP is not to display questionable images. This would change, potentially, if I were subject to intensive Internet monitoring / heavy religious policing, for example. In such a case, we might be better off making no warranties and only distributing Debian installer disks to certain countries, for example. Interestingly enough, many people might agree on what could be regarded as appropriate - is there scope for a Debian-conservative / Debian-filtered custom Debian distribution for those that wish it/require it? How counsel reports back may be complicated due to issues of attorney-client privilege. We probably want to be able to maintain privilege so that we don't have to report to a court what we discussed with our attorney. It's not yet clear to me that stuff we post to debian-private is still under privilege. I'd have to ask our lawyer. Thanks Bruce -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. (And quite stunningly failing to realise that objecting to this package in this manner is equally offensive in the other direction, and probably more so. Please humour me and spell it out for me in small words. I am presumably missing something stunningly obvious. b.
Re: charsets in debian/control
* Petter Reinholdtsen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041205 11:30]: [Peter Samuelson] We seem to be moving to a de facto standard of UTF-8 for non-ASCII characters in debian/control files. This is not specified in Policy [1], but for hopefully obvious reasons, consistency is a Good Thing, and UTF-8 seems to be the best solution for this sort of thing. Some will argue that only ASCII is acceptable in debian/control files. I am not one of these. I agree that we should standardise on UTF-8 for both the changelog and the control file (and the copyright file, for the upstream author and package author names). We need to be able to correctly represent the names of people, and it can not be done using ASCII only. Good to see that most packages already uses UTF-8. I hope the packages using other charsets can be converted to UTF-8 as soon as possible. There are different way to view that, and there is a policy bug about that very topic. I think most of us agree that non-UTF-8-characters are not a good idea (please note the UTF-8-characters is a superset of ASCII). For some places (like package names), I think most of us even agree that only ASCII-characters should be used. Also, there is the proposal that in other fields (i.e. names), an translation should (also) be used if the characters are not in some basic classes (more or less: ASCII plus ASCII-similar letters). So, I personally consider non-UTF-8-characters an bug, and UTF-8-not-ASCII on the way from bug to allowed. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Pornography may be offensive to some. Is the package description for hot-babe accurate? Are people who do not want it installed being forced to install it? People who may be offended by the package should read its description and make up their own mind about whether or not they would like to install it. I'd like to also mention that censorship is very offensive, to me. I find it absolutely disgusting that some people think they have the right to control what I may view, or what gets included in media (Debian, in this case) that I use, due to their own beliefs. If they are offended by something, and they are not being forced to expose themselves to it, they have no good reason for complaint, and they especially shouldn't try to stop other people from viewing/using it. As for legal issues, there's so much software and so many packages in Debian, that it's more or less impossible to keep track of which packages violate which laws, and in which countries those laws apply. It'd be nice if that were possible, but it's not. I imagine most packages might violate some obscure law in some obscure country. Debian needs to stick to the laws of one major country, and perhaps provide packages that don't fit into that country's legal system as a separate source, if possible. I live in Australia, but I think that basing Debians decisions on US law is the most sensible option. Which packages should be allowed into Debian? All packages with a maintainer. This policy could lead to problems with Debian growing far too large. To solve that, I feel there should be some discussion on packages that might not be very useful to many people. If it is decided that they're probably not very useful, they should be put into a separate source, outside the main distribution, but still available for those that want them. There's no excuse for censorship, ever.
Re: Bug#284283: ITP: fairuse -- spam filter based on sender identity verification
Scripsit Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] So not only does it fail to stop spam in any useful way, it doesn't even fail to do so according to the standard, and it sends out more email noise while doing so. It gets worse yet: the FAQ says | Legitimate senders know immediately that you haven't received their | email, allowing them to click to deliver it. Meanwhile, they only | sit in the queue for an hour if they can't be delivered. Sigh. -- Henning Makholm Monarki, er ikke noget materielt ... Borger!
Re: Questionable image process. Was: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- (abusive?) erotic images in Debian
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 10:30 +, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: On Sat, Dec 04, 2004 at 04:31:03PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: David Weinehall wrote: [snip] Interestingly enough, many people might agree on what could be regarded as appropriate - is there scope for a Debian-conservative / Debian-filtered custom Debian distribution for those that wish it/require it? Would country/region-specific jigdo files be a reasonable solution? -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. And I'm hiding in Honduras, I'm a desperate man. Send lawyers, guns and money! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Legal budget and Director-and-officer insurance related to packages with adult themes
Le samedi 04 décembre 2004 à 19:14 -0800, Bruce Perens a écrit : In contrast, those resources aren't inclined to help us with the questionable-material problem, and we have not researched it at all. If we're going to make a stand about it, we'd better start learning. Then maybe we could research whether this material is questionable at all. It's not as if hot-babe contained pr0n pictures. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?=
Re: charsets in debian/control
Le dimanche 05 décembre 2004 à 11:43 +0100, Andreas Barth a écrit : I think most of us agree that non-UTF-8-characters are not a good idea (please note the UTF-8-characters is a superset of ASCII). For some places (like package names), I think most of us even agree that only ASCII-characters should be used. Also, there is the proposal that in other fields (i.e. names), an translation should (also) be used if the characters are not in some basic classes (more or less: ASCII plus ASCII-similar letters). So, I personally consider non-UTF-8-characters an bug, and UTF-8-not-ASCII on the way from bug to allowed. Many of us have names that can't be written using ASCII. Furthermore, the Debian tools need consistency between the developer name in the changelog and the Maintainer/Uploaders fields in the control file. The only way for these developers to have a policy-compliant changelog without having their uploads considered as NMUs is to encode the control file in UTF-8. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?=
Re: charsets in debian/control
* Josselin Mouette ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041205 13:05]: Le dimanche 05 décembre 2004 à 11:43 +0100, Andreas Barth a écrit : I think most of us agree that non-UTF-8-characters are not a good idea (please note the UTF-8-characters is a superset of ASCII). For some places (like package names), I think most of us even agree that only ASCII-characters should be used. Also, there is the proposal that in other fields (i.e. names), an translation should (also) be used if the characters are not in some basic classes (more or less: ASCII plus ASCII-similar letters). So, I personally consider non-UTF-8-characters an bug, and UTF-8-not-ASCII on the way from bug to allowed. Many of us have names that can't be written using ASCII. Furthermore, the Debian tools need consistency between the developer name in the changelog and the Maintainer/Uploaders fields in the control file. The only way for these developers to have a policy-compliant changelog without having their uploads considered as NMUs is to encode the control file in UTF-8. Though I agree on your last statement (and please, remember, I'm from germany where non-ASCII-characters are also in common use), I still consider that UTF-8-not-ASCII has not finally reached ok, but it's on the way to it (and I consider this a good thing). Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: charsets in debian/control
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 01:01:16PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Many of us have names that can't be written using ASCII. Well, they usually can be transliterated, can't they? Transliterating is somewhat of a kludge (and I think in most cases UTF-8 is a much better solution); OTOH I'd rapidly get confused in the list of Japanese maintainers if their names weren't transliterated. /* Steinar */ -- Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/
Re: charsets in debian/control
On Dec 05, Peter Samuelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would people support a mass bug at minor severity? Make it normal. -- ciao, | Marco | [9589 inOGrPyJFNKhM] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: charsets in debian/control
On Dec 05, Steinar H. Gunderson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Transliterating is somewhat of a kludge (and I think in most cases UTF-8 is a much better solution); OTOH I'd rapidly get confused in the list of Japanese maintainers if their names weren't transliterated. This is a different issue: in an international environment, people who write their name in a non-Latin script should also add a romanized version. -- ciao, | Marco | [9590 titPdfXuT6SXM] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: charsets in debian/control
[Steinar H. Gunderson] Transliterating is somewhat of a kludge (and I think in most cases UTF-8 is a much better solution); OTOH I'd rapidly get confused in the list of Japanese maintainers if their names weren't transliterated. I think it's a valid choice for a maintainer who natively speaks a language that does not use the Roman alphabet, whether to present one's name in the preferred form, or a Roman transliteration which will be easier for most developers to identify. It's an asymmetric situation, in that people interacting with Debian development *already* have to know a modicum of English - and thus, non-ASCII variations on the Roman alphabet should not confound most of us in the way other writing systems might. In either case, at least the email address will be a clue, and a point of contact. Peter signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: charsets in debian/control
[Marco d'Itri] Would people support a mass bug at minor severity? Make it normal. Given that Policy recommends debian/changelog to be utf-8, coupled with the observation (which I had not thought of) that various tools may require a maintainer's name in debian/control and debian/changelog to be the same - I'd agree. I'll wait for more feedback before doing it, though. One thing I don't wish for is a public flogging for filing an unjustified mass bug. Peter signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On 05/12/2004 James Foster wrote: Pornography may be offensive to some. Is the package description for hot-babe accurate? Are people who do not want it installed being forced to install it? People who may be offended by the package should read its description and make up their own mind about whether or not they would like to install it. [...] There's no excuse for censorship, ever. so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just because you dislike censorship? did you ever think about the issue, that discriminating positions/POVs themselves are censoring, as they eliminate the thoughts of suppressed individuals? in my eyes there shouldn't be any tolerance for intolerance, as you woun't get respect in return. rather your tolerance will be exploited. and apart from that, i don't need a gender war in debian. nearly every community i know, online or reallife, ran into sexist problems sooner or later, caused by latent disriminating structures in modern societies. bye jonas
Bug#284313: ITP: gcursor -- gtk2 tool to configure Xcursors themes (introduced in XFree86 4.3 iirc).
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: gcursor Version : 0.061 Upstream Author : Name [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://qballcow.nl/?s=14 * License : GPL Description : gcursor is a gtk2 tool to configure Xcursors themes (introduced in XFree86 4.3 iirc). this software allows configuring Xcursors with a gtk2 frontend. from the website: Missing a mouse cursor theme selector in gnome, I wrote gcursor. I tries to have the look and feel of the gnome-theme-manager. It can install and select xcursor-themes. It work by setting, on gnome 2.4, the ~/.icons/default/index.theme file. On gnome 2.5.5 and higher it sets the correct gconf key for it. Setting a xcursor theme isn't instant. In most cases it requires a restart of X to apply. It uses file-roller to extract themes when installing. -- System Information: Debian Release: 3.1 APT prefers unstable APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental') Architecture: i386 (i686) Kernel: Linux 2.6.10-rc2-mm4-xa1 Locale: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Le dimanche 05 décembre 2004 à 14:23 +0100, Jonas Meurer a écrit : There's no excuse for censorship, ever. so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just because you dislike censorship? You're being late for invoking the Godwin law. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?=
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On 05/12/2004 Josselin Mouette wrote: Le dimanche 05 décembre 2004 à 14:23 +0100, Jonas Meurer a écrit : There's no excuse for censorship, ever. so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just because you dislike censorship? You're being late for invoking the Godwin law. can you give further information about this 'Godwin law'? you mean that i repeated what Godwin already mentioned? bye jonas signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
[Jonas Meurer] can you give further information about this 'Godwin law'? you mean that i repeated what Godwin already mentioned? Different Godwin, I believe. URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
* Jonas Meurer wrote: can you give further information about this 'Godwin law'? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law Sebastian -- PGP-Key: http://www.mmweg.rwth-aachen.de/~sebastian.ley/public.key Fingerprint: A46A 753F AEDC 2C01 BE6E F6DB 97E0 3309 9FD6 E3E6
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 14:29 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le dimanche 05 décembre 2004 à 14:23 +0100, Jonas Meurer a écrit : There's no excuse for censorship, ever. so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just because you dislike censorship? You're being late for invoking the Godwin law. In order to keep the conversation going, let's rephrase that to: so you would even accept vil sexist/racist/homophobic/globalist baby-eating Republican propaganda material. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. The one function that TV news performs very well is that when there is no news we give it to you with the same emphasis as if it were. David Brinkley signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: charsets in debian/control
[Peter Samuelson] I suggest that the affected source packages[3] be run through the command 'iconv -f ORIGINAL_CHARSET -t utf-8' as soon as convenient. No, as you noticed this list is short and can be processed in a more elegant manner, e.g. sympa description uses a no-break space where a normal space would suffice, so telling maintainer to convert to UTF-8 is not a good idea. I filed several bugreports months ago for packages having non-ASCII characters in their description, 3 are closed (#245592, #245594, #245596) and 2 are still open: itcl3 (#242690) and krb4 (#242694). IMO such bugreports are better than mass bug filing because the 3 closed bugreports did not switch to UTF-8 but converted to ASCII instead. This requires a manual processing because instructions are not identical for all bugreports. Denis
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:34:36PM +1100, Ben Burton wrote: As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. (And quite stunningly failing to realise that objecting to this package in this manner is equally offensive in the other direction, and probably more so. Please humour me and spell it out for me in small words. I am presumably missing something stunningly obvious. I find the notion of introducing censorship in order to not 'hurt their feelings' to be morally repugnant. It has been proven endless times that once you start doing this, you can't stop. For any package, there is going to be some minority group that is offended by it. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 02:23:52PM +0100, Jonas Meurer wrote: On 05/12/2004 James Foster wrote: Pornography may be offensive to some. Is the package description for hot-babe accurate? Are people who do not want it installed being forced to install it? People who may be offended by the package should read its description and make up their own mind about whether or not they would like to install it. [...] There's no excuse for censorship, ever. so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just because you dislike censorship? Hell yes. This said it best, I think: [...] freedom of expression constitutes one of the essential foundations of a democratic society and one of the basic conditions for its progress and each individual's self-fulfilment. [...] it is applicable not only to information or ideas that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of indifference, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb. Such are the demands of pluralism, tolerance and broadmindedness, without which there is no democratic society. [Even if this 'democratic society' label is somewhat misnamed]. in my eyes there shouldn't be any tolerance for intolerance, as you woun't get respect in return. rather your tolerance will be exploited. Precisely. If we tolerate the intolerance of these people who are so terrified of images of the naked female form, then they will continue to exploit our tolerance. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On 05-Dec-04, 04:55 (CST), James Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's no excuse for censorship, ever. Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a given package is NOT censorship. We are not telling people that they can't install, use, and/or distribute the package, just that we don't care to make it available as an official Debian package from our servers. This is not a subtle difference. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Op zo, 05-12-2004 te 14:23 +0100, schreef Jonas Meurer: On 05/12/2004 James Foster wrote: Pornography may be offensive to some. Is the package description for hot-babe accurate? Are people who do not want it installed being forced to install it? People who may be offended by the package should read its description and make up their own mind about whether or not they would like to install it. [...] There's no excuse for censorship, ever. so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just because you dislike censorship? Yes, for the very same reason that many public libraries across the world contain the book 'Mein Kampf', by Adolf Hitler. did you ever think about the issue, that discriminating positions/POVs themselves are censoring, as they eliminate the thoughts of suppressed individuals? It is discriminating to censor other people's thoughts, even if those thoughts themselves are discriminating and advocate censorship. -- EARTH smog | bricks AIR -- mud -- FIRE soda water | tequila WATER -- with thanks to fortune
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 08:45:56AM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote: On 05-Dec-04, 04:55 (CST), James Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's no excuse for censorship, ever. Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a given package is NOT censorship. And telling somebody else that they can't distribute a given package IS censorship. You evidently have chosen not to do it. That's not censorship. You're presumably also trying to tell somebody else not to do it. That's censorship. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 10:53:56PM -0200, Gustavo Noronha Silva wrote: What I think should be done is pictures of a man should be added to the package *or*, as someone else suggested, add the picture of a flower blooming A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. Paul
Re: Bug#284272: udev: fails to create /dev/pmu on PPC
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004, Marco d'Itri wrote: On Dec 05, Martin-Éric Racine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read. Nothing about /dev/pmu there, yet it failed to be created. It is a bug. There is a WHOLE SECTION about this situation: This is not a case of module loading. - some drivers have not been ported to sysfs yet, and udev will not be able to create their devices. If you use one of these drivers you will have to create the devices after every boot. Could be, but again this is not for the user to try guessing. PS: A bug is only closed when the bug reporter confirms it has been fixed. This is clearly not the case, hence it's inapropriate to close it. -- Martin-Éric Racine, ICT Consultant http://www.iki.fi/q-funk/
menu-method for .desktop files?
Hi I notice discussion on bug #241554 regarding a menu-method for .desktop files used by KDM/GDM for window manager sessions. Has any progress been made on this? If not I would like to volunteer for it. I definitely think it would be a useful thing to have, considering the majority of window managers still do not provide .desktop files. Please bcc me any replies replacing no.spam with doc.ic.ac.uk as I am not subscribed to the list and do not wish to receive spam. -- Peter
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] freedom of expression constitutes one of the essential foundations of a democratic society and one of the basic conditions for its progress and each individual's self-fulfilment. [...] it is applicable not only to information or ideas that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of indifference, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb. Such are the demands of pluralism, tolerance and broadmindedness, without which there is no democratic society. Debian is not a democratic society. It is not intended to be a source of all information known to man. It is supposed to be a project to produce a Free operating system. That means: a) Things that are not useful should not be in there b) Things that are gratuitously insulting to a large number of people should not be there unless they're fantastically useful Having this argument over a program that is entirely useless in the first place just makes it harder to have a proper discussion in the cases where it actually matters. Or, putting it another way: failing to include this piece of code does Debian no demonstrable harm. Including it does. I know we have something of a reputation for preferring philosophical masturbation to actually doing the useful thing, but that shouldn't result in a several hundred post flamewar. What are you all, stupid or something? -- Matthew Garrett | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On 05/12/2004 Wouter Verhelst wrote: so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just because you dislike censorship? Yes, for the very same reason that many public libraries across the world contain the book 'Mein Kampf', by Adolf Hitler. there's a big difference between documenting history and actively propagandizing historical backspins. at least there should be. did you ever think about the issue, that discriminating positions/POVs themselves are censoring, as they eliminate the thoughts of suppressed individuals? It is discriminating to censor other people's thoughts, even if those thoughts themselves are discriminating and advocate censorship. you may run into big troubles if you tolerate a violent ideology - it's no longer about thoughts but more about brutality. maybe we have different ideas about what freedom is, but at least in my eyes - freedom is always limited by other peoples freedom. discriminating is mostly about retrenching other peoples freedom, isn't it? bye jonas
Re: charsets in debian/control
Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Le dimanche 05 décembre 2004 à 11:43 +0100, Andreas Barth a écrit : I think most of us agree that non-UTF-8-characters are not a good idea (please note the UTF-8-characters is a superset of ASCII). For some places (like package names), I think most of us even agree that only ASCII-characters should be used. Also, there is the proposal that in other fields (i.e. names), an translation should (also) be used if the characters are not in some basic classes (more or less: ASCII plus ASCII-similar letters). So, I personally consider non-UTF-8-characters an bug, and UTF-8-not-ASCII on the way from bug to allowed. Many of us have names that can't be written using ASCII. Furthermore, the Debian tools need consistency between the developer name in the changelog and the Maintainer/Uploaders fields in the control file. The only way for these developers to have a policy-compliant changelog without having their uploads considered as NMUs is to encode the control file in UTF-8. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom Which means all control file, changelog file, changes file, Packages and Sources file parsing programs have to be truely converted to UTF-8. dpkg, apt, aptitude, dselect, apt-proxy, apt-cacher(?), debmirror, debpartial-mirror, DAK, cdebootstrap, ... I guess most just work out of luck with the mixture we have now. We already had cdebootstrap crashes because of it (its parser was a bit stricter than the rest). On that note, how likely is it to hit a UTF-8 character encoding that contains a '\n'? Any non UTF-8 aware parser would assume a new line has started and get parse errors. MfG Goswin
Re: charsets in debian/control
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:40:52PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: On that note, how likely is it to hit a UTF-8 character encoding that contains a '\n'? Any non UTF-8 aware parser would assume a new line has started and get parse errors. 0% likely, guaranteed. UTF-8 is *designed* to be upwards compatible with plain ASCII. Every valid ASCII character has the same meaning in UTF-8. Every UTF-8 byte sequence for a non-ASCII character will not contain *any* ASCII characters. This is achieved by making sure that everything above plain ASCII has the high bit set, not just for the first byte, but for all of them. -- Bart.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/musahim
Re: Bug#284272: udev: fails to create /dev/pmu on PPC
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 05:39:58PM +0200, Martin-Éric Racine wrote: Cc: Marco d'Itri [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Such @bugs.debian.org addresses do not exist. PS: A bug is only closed when the bug reporter confirms it has been fixed. As a point of information I must say that this is clearly not true, and never has been true in the Debian bug tracking system. Bugs are closed by changelog entries before the reporter even has a chance to try the package. The 28-day delay before archival was designed, among other things, to allow the reporter to reopen the bug if necessary. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Plop wrote: A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. Paul I was thinking that we could use pictures of the Eiffel Tower or Washington Monument in various stages of construction. Nick
Bug#284346: ITP: ganglia-webfrontend -- Web frontend for ganglia cluster monitoring toolkit
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: ganglia-webfrontend Version : 2.5.7 Upstream Author : Matt Massie [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://www.ganglia.info/ * License : BSD Description : Web frontend for ganglia cluster monitoring toolkit Ganglia is a scalable, real-time cluster monitoring environment with that collects cluster statistics in an open well-defined XML format. . This package contains the PHP based web frontend, which displays information gathered by 'gmetad'. -- System Information: Debian Release: 3.1 APT prefers unstable APT policy: (500, 'unstable') Architecture: i386 (i686) Kernel: Linux 2.6.7 Locale: LANG=en_GB.ISO-8859-15, LC_CTYPE=en_GB.ISO-8859-15 (charmap=ISO-8859-1) (ignored: LC_ALL set to en_GB)
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On 05-Dec-04, 09:07 (CST), Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 08:45:56AM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote: On 05-Dec-04, 04:55 (CST), James Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's no excuse for censorship, ever. Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a given package is NOT censorship. And telling somebody else that they can't distribute a given package IS censorship. I haven't told anyone that they can't distribute it. We, Debian, can choose not to distribute certain materials w/o it being censorship. My local library does not buy and circulate every single book that comes on the market. That's not censorship. They have limited resources, and thus must make choices. Making those choices probably includes questions like Is circulating work 'X' likely to cause so much uproar and distraction that it actually detracts from acheiving our overall goals? You evidently have chosen not to do it. That's not censorship. You're presumably also trying to tell somebody else not to do it. That's censorship. Actually, I've been arguing in favor of including hot-babe. However, I'd like to be able to have this debate w/o abusing words like censorship and pornography, neither of which apply to this situation. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: charsets in debian/control
Bart Schuller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:40:52PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: On that note, how likely is it to hit a UTF-8 character encoding that contains a '\n'? Any non UTF-8 aware parser would assume a new line has started and get parse errors. 0% likely, guaranteed. UTF-8 is *designed* to be upwards compatible with plain ASCII. Every valid ASCII character has the same meaning in UTF-8. Every UTF-8 byte sequence for a non-ASCII character will not contain *any* ASCII characters. This is achieved by making sure that everything above plain ASCII has the high bit set, not just for the first byte, but for all of them. Ok, so no problems there. Any parser that acceps 8bit non-ascii chars will accept UTF-8 then. What remains is just making the UTF-8 chars visually correct then. MfG Goswin
Re: charsets in debian/control
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:40:52PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow wrote: On that note, how likely is it to hit a UTF-8 character encoding that contains a '\n'? Any non UTF-8 aware parser would assume a new line has started and get parse errors. Thats no problem. The only problem you have with UTF-8 is, that a UTF-8 reader will see illegal byte sequences in a traditionally encoded (latin1) file. Greetings Bernd -- (OO) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ( .. ) [EMAIL PROTECTED],linux.de,debian.org} http://www.eckes.org/ o--o 1024D/E383CD7E [EMAIL PROTECTED] v:+497211603874 f:+497211606754 (OO) When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl!
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Matthew Garrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Or, putting it another way: failing to include this piece of code does Debian no demonstrable harm. Including it does. After this several hundred posts thread, I still fail to see which demonstrable harm such a silly and innocent package would do. Oh, well, except unproved FUDs like it might not be distributable in foo or it might offend people. If people are offended by 1 out of 1 packages, so they are not obliged to install it. How fun people on this list make a mountain out of a molehill! -- .''`. ; ;' ; Debian GNU/Linux | Benjamin Drieu `. `'http://www.debian.org/ | [EMAIL PROTECTED] `- pgp8mi4VJNq3J.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: charsets in debian/control
Peter Samuelson writes, We seem to be moving to a de facto standard of UTF-8 for non-ASCII characters in debian/control files. This is not specified in Policy [1], but for hopefully obvious reasons, consistency is a Good Thing, and UTF-8 seems to be the best solution for this sort of thing. Would Peter permit me a mild dissent? I prefer Latin-1. Reason: I can recognize and distinguish Latin-1 characters, even when I do not always understand the words they spell. Recognizing and distinguishing the characters is important to me. And not just to me. Imagine the dismay of a Korean user trying to read Arabic script in a control file. Well, the Korean user can speak for himself. Speaking for myself, ASCII is a little too limited. There is a proper balance to strike, and to me Latin-1 though imperfect is about right. Latin-1 is wrong if you speak Polish, of course, and even if you don't speak Polish, Latin-1's lack of a euro sign is slightly annoying; but, well, I admit that I do not really mind precisely where the line is drawn, so long as the general simple Latin concept of writing is preserved and the number of distinct characters represented is kept within reasonable bounds. Regarding only Latin, Unicode recognizes over eight hundred Latin characters: far too many for me. This is not considering Cyrillic or Greek; nor even beginning to think of the numerous very different writing systems of a wider non-Western world---worthy writing systems which I cannot even transcribe much less read---beautiful writing systems in which the basic Western left-to-right, character-based, diacritically marked semantics are not preserved. For the Debian Project, madness lies that way. If Latin-1 is established and used if not universally loved, then probably we should limit our usage to it. I do not deny that Latin-1 represents all the languages I can read, and that this fact may color my view. Nevertheless to me a source written in Chinese is effectively non-free. It might as well be a compiled binary blob. Actually, UTF-8 encoding as such is fine. It uses a few extra 0xC0 and 0xC1 bytes for the Latin-1 characters (see utf-8(7)), but this does not matter much. The full UTF-8 domain has numerous subtle semantics which I should like to be able to avoid, however. UTF-8 is for Unicode, which is to allow the representation of the languages of the world in their own scripts. While highly useful in its own domain, this has little to do with Debian control files, where we probably do not want the languages of the world represented in any event. I would tend to recommend that untranslated Debian work, especially control files, be limited to Latin-1. If the Japanese maintainers uncomplainingly transliterate their names to Latin-1 for our benefit, then probably the rest of us should do likewise. Whether the Latin-1 is C0/C1-encoded as UTF-8, however, is a matter of indifference to me. -- Thaddeus H. Black 508 Nellie's Cave Road Blacksburg, Virginia 24060, USA +1 540 961 0920, [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpZfqqlenkJK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Op zo, 05-12-2004 te 17:15 +0100, schreef Jonas Meurer: On 05/12/2004 Wouter Verhelst wrote: so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just because you dislike censorship? Yes, for the very same reason that many public libraries across the world contain the book 'Mein Kampf', by Adolf Hitler. there's a big difference between documenting history and actively propagandizing historical backspins. at least there should be. There's a big difference between accepting nazi propaganda in Debian and actively propagating nazism. Besides, I fail to see how a library who includes 'Mein Kampf' in its collection is merely 'documenting history'. Documenting history would be to write a synthesis of Mein Kampf, perhaps including historical context. Providing the book itself is more than that. did you ever think about the issue, that discriminating positions/POVs themselves are censoring, as they eliminate the thoughts of suppressed individuals? It is discriminating to censor other people's thoughts, even if those thoughts themselves are discriminating and advocate censorship. you may run into big troubles if you tolerate a violent ideology - it's no longer about thoughts but more about brutality. Not if you're merely voicing those thoughts. Apart from that, I wasn't talking about violent ideologies specifically. maybe we have different ideas about what freedom is, but at least in my eyes - freedom is always limited by other peoples freedom. I couldn't agree more; in fact, I've made this claim myself in the past. However, voicing your ideas does not limit the freedom of other people. It may annoy them, but that is not the same thing. discriminating is mostly about retrenching other peoples freedom, isn't it? Sure. -- EARTH smog | bricks AIR -- mud -- FIRE soda water | tequila WATER -- with thanks to fortune
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004, Nick Sillik wrote: On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Plop wrote: A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. This is pointless. Let's just have hot-babe with as much nudity/porn/whatever as the maintainer might want, and put it on non-us since it is illegal to distribute such things in the USA (and unlike the possibility of offending people's sensibilities, THIS is a real issue as things stand). While at it, we should also move anything else that the USA law could classify as a reason to bust Debian/SPI people in jail, to non-us. There isn't much of it, I hope. Other than that, we could (as someone else suggested) have jigdo lists per-country, removing files that are unlawful or really, really a bad idea for that country. Keeping such a database is not too painful, as long as we do not even bother with it unless someone of such a country shows up to provide us with a full list of offending packages, along with the legal references that cause each and every package in the list to be removed. That database would be public, and it would be useful for other projects as well. -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh
Re: charsets in debian/control
El dom, 05-12-2004 a las 20:16 +, Thaddeus H. Black escribi: Peter Samuelson writes, We seem to be moving to a de facto standard of UTF-8 for non-ASCII characters in debian/control files. This is not specified in Policy [1], but for hopefully obvious reasons, consistency is a Good Thing, and UTF-8 seems to be the best solution for this sort of thing. Would Peter permit me a mild dissent? I prefer Latin-1. Reason: I can recognize and distinguish Latin-1 characters, even when I do not always understand the words they spell. Recognizing and distinguishing the characters is important to me. And not just to me. Imagine the dismay of a Korean user trying to read Arabic script in a control file. But the only field in UTF8 should be Maintainer, and that field should have (IMHO) also a roman transliterate for the name, if you don't use a latin charset (Greek, Arabic, Japanese, Chinese...) So I don't really see your point here. That you can write your name in your native alphabet doesn't mean that from now people could write their rules files in Chinese, or whatever. Cheers, -- Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje =?ISO-8859-1?Q?est=E1?= firmada digitalmente
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On 05/12/2004 Wouter Verhelst wrote: you may run into big troubles if you tolerate a violent ideology - it's no longer about thoughts but more about brutality. Not if you're merely voicing those thoughts. sure, voicing those thoughts without practicing them is not the problem. but (to come closer to the original topic) at least abusing female humans as sex objects and using the photographs as exciter is about practicing the thoughts. and please don't tell me that just providing them is not the same as using them: they are only provided to be used this way! Apart from that, I wasn't talking about violent ideologies specifically. ok replace violent for sexist in this case. maybe we have different ideas about what freedom is, but at least in my eyes - freedom is always limited by other peoples freedom. I couldn't agree more; in fact, I've made this claim myself in the past. However, voicing your ideas does not limit the freedom of other people. It may annoy them, but that is not the same thing. again, the majority of thoughts (that are considered important enough to be archived by someone) are not there to be voiced and forgotten, but to be voiced and practiced, and at this point the problem becomes more complex than voicing ideas does not limit other people's freedom. bye jonas
second appeal for libtiff testers
A new version of libtiff, version 3.7.0 + CVS (more like an alpha of 3.7.1, expected soon) has been uploaded to experimental. i386 and powerpc packages are available. (Many thanks to Giuseppe Sacco for sponsoring this upload and building the packages.) This version is expected to be binary compatible with the current libtiff4 package in sid and sarge and should be safe to just install and test. I have done a fair amount of testing myself and have found no problems with this version. If a few people, particularly maintainers of packages that depend upon libtiff, can test this, perhaps we can put 3.7.1 into sarge when it comes out. The 3.7 series has many bug fixes over 3.6.1, which is the version currently in sid/sarge. If you find any problems, please report them through the BTS (of course). I would be grateful if you could send me a personal email message if you try 3.7.0 and it works well for you. -- Jay Berkenbilt [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ql.org/q/
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 06:28:14PM -0200, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: might want, and put it on non-us since it is illegal to distribute such things in the USA (and unlike the possibility of offending people's sensibilities, THIS is a real issue as things stand). While at it, we They have had quite a few major busts of child pornographers in Europe and also Asia. Europe doesn't tolerate *everything*. Also as some have said about Germany and first-person-shooters.
Evolution 2.x
Hi there, I am soliciting a bit of assistance in how to best collect information to report a bug most accurately. I have a general idea of what is needed (reportbug does most of the legwork) but additional debug might be a good thing. Evolution 2.x has an annoying habit of getting threads/processes 'stuck', and by that I mean that in the bottom of the window, there is a status bar of sorts. I keep getting a little unopened envelope and the text Working 0xadf20720, where the hex address changes. How do I best collect the information that the package maintainer would like? Regards, -- Anders Karlsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Trudheim Technology Limited signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: charsets in debian/control
On Sunday 05 December 2004 03:32 pm, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote: Would Peter permit me a mild dissent? I prefer Latin-1. Reason: I can recognize and distinguish Latin-1 characters, even when I do not always understand the words they spell. Recognizing and distinguishing the characters is important to me. And not just to me. Imagine the dismay of a Korean user trying to read Arabic script in a control file. But the only field in UTF8 should be Maintainer, and that field should have (IMHO) also a roman transliterate for the name, if you don't use a latin charset (Greek, Arabic, Japanese, Chinese...) Well, when aptitude gets UTF8 support, it'll decode all the control fields that are mainly meant for human consumption: that means at least Description in addition to the Maintainer field, and maybe also Section. I don't see any reason to limit ourselves in the long term by sticking to Latin1 (or ASCII) just because none of us can read all of the languages that are available in the extended UTF8 namespace. If we want people to stick to certain subsets of UTF8, that should be determined in Policy, not the packaging software. If you want a practical concern (aside from, say, a general suspicion of building policy into software tools), consider these cases: - Someone wants to translate the Description fields of all packages in Debian into Chinese or Arabic. What will they do if the package tools only support Latin-1? - Someone wants to use the Debian packaging tools to create a new distribution for use in China. Again, what will they do if the package tools only support Latin-1? Daniel -- /--- Daniel Burrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] --\ |We've got nothing to fear but the stuff that we're| | afraid of! -- Fluble | \--- Be like the kid in the movie! Play chess! -- http://www.uschess.org --/ pgpPb1jhTqyTk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Evolution 2.x
Re: Anders Karlsson in [EMAIL PROTECTED] How do I best collect the information that the package maintainer would like? Hi, if you file a regular bug, the maintainer will contact you to provide the information he needs. He is the one who knows the package best. Besides that, there's strace, gdb, ltrace, screenshots, ... Christoph -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.df7cb.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
I find the notion of introducing censorship in order to not 'hurt their feelings' to be morally repugnant. Yes yes, I understand why you don't like it. What I wanted was an explanation of why objecting to this package was probably _more_ offensive than proposing it. (Bearing in mind that in this context, censorship simply means not shipping with debian, as opposed to attempting to deny access altogether.) It has been proven endless times that once you start doing this, you can't stop. For any package, there is going to be some minority group that is offended by it. Sounds to me like your problem is not so much with the objection, but with its expected implementation. b.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 15:55:27 +, Matthew Garrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Debian is not a democratic society. It is not intended to be a source of all information known to man. It is supposed to be a project to produce a Free operating system. That means: a) Things that are not useful should not be in there b) Things that are gratuitously insulting to a large number of people should not be there unless they're fantastically useful Having this argument over a program that is entirely useless in the first place just makes it harder to have a proper discussion in the cases where it actually matters. This is where I'd like to put in a round of whole-hearted applause. Or, putting it another way: failing to include this piece of code does Debian no demonstrable harm. Including it does. I know we have something of a reputation for preferring philosophical masturbation to actually doing the useful thing, but that shouldn't result in a several hundred post flamewar. What are you all, stupid or something? Sure, they're humans. ;) Here's one useful suggestion, I think: If hot-babe is useful as a .deb, make it available as such through its own web site or something. This works for many other packages not accepted into the Debian tree for whatever reason, why shouldn't it work for hot-babe? Or, if those of you who really really want hot-babe in a kind of distribution feel like it, create your own distribution tree with hot-babe and other stuff that's not regularly distributed in main, contrib, non-free or non-US. I'm sure there's enough interest around to make it popular.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- (abusive?) erotic images in Debian
* Martin Olsson | I have not seen this image thus I do not if I would find it offensive | or not. Could someone please upload a .png of it somewhere and post | the URL? They are posted on http://temp.aurel32.net/hot-babe/ | Finally, I would like to commend Michelle Konzack for standing up on | this issue. Debian should never promote | degradation/abuse/exploitation, in any form, of females (or males or | blacks or whites or whatever). Please take a look at the images and I'd be surprised if you feel them degrade, abuse or exploit females. I think they are silly and nothing to be upset about. Not porn, not erotic, just silly. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Finding an improved release process.
* Eduard Bloch | From my point of view, we could have released Sarge one year after Woody | with boot-floppies. The only thing needed was a bit more man power from | the porters. Instead, most of the core team and the BFs porters | stopped to work on it. And without manpower (motivated people), there | will be no development. It took us about six months for getting the Potato b-fs working with Woody, so about a year for getting the installer ready should have been enough, yes. Except for the fact that debian-boot goes into a six month hibernation after a release, or has after both potato and woody released at least. However, you are totally rewriting history here. Debian-installer development was stopped a year or so before Woody's release. I started working on d-i fall 2001, roughly nine months before Woody's release. I had a demo-working d-i at about that time (see my mail to debian-devel-announce of 2002-07-29). The first alpha was released six months later. As of a little less than half a year ago, RCs started being made. So the installer took about two years for a full rewrite from scratch, compared to about six months hibernation plus six months of work for fixing up the old installer. And d-i is way, way, way better than b-f could ever have become. (How would you preseed in b-f, for instance?) | Well, the outcome of d-i development is good, but not that impressive | (no GUI, no jumping penguins, confusing partitioner tool). Sometimes | they have made the same errors we did with BFs, sometimes new things | have been invented. You are judging it on GUI, shiny stuff. Colin and Joey have had a bit of discussion around this and we will have a GUI. In a nice way, and it will rock. That fixes both the confusing partitioner tool and the GUI issue. Jumping penguins? Well, sure, we should be able to throw in some of those as well. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Bug#283994: ITP: glastree -- builds live backup trees, with branches for each day
* Henning Makholm | Scripsit Charles Fry [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Is there any benefit to using glastree over dirvish or pdumpfs? | | The advantage of using glastree over pdumpfs is that it is implemented | in Perl rather than Ruby (this is in fact the reason that I encountered | it in the first place). | | How would this be relevant to the *user*? Usually I don't care which | languages the software I use is written in, except perhaps when it | breaks and I need to hack the source. Minimize the number of packages installed -- I do care at least. (Which is one of the reasons why I'm using glastree and not pdumpfs.) -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
* John Hasler | William Ballard writes: | The Bible should be in Debian. But the Koran, the Torah, and the Vishnu | texts (name escapes me at the moment) should all be in there too. | | Debian is not Project Gutenberg. Debian is about _software_. But the recent GR clarified that data is also software. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
* Fernanda Giroleti Weiden | I am not saying I don't believe you, I am just surprised that you seem | to feel objectified and pressured by a silly little cartoon. | | They are confusing somethings when compares sexual discrimination with | any other kind of. Be a women is not a religion choice and is not a the | same thing than choose a Desktop Manager. You are argumenting against | equality. I'm a women but I have the same rights you have. Can you | understand that? Sure, and among those rights, you can package up hot-guy or whatever, if you want to do that. Or provide alternative graphics for hot-babe. We should not be too offensive to minority groups, but at the same time people do have to have a certain amount of skin thickness. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: GNOME 2.8 on ia64 completely hosed?
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 02:03:13PM -0500, Adam C Powell IV wrote: On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 21:17, Sven Luther wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 01:03:59PM -0700, Al Stone wrote: Hmmm. 'apt-get upgrade' this morning seems to have fixed it all -- so it would seem that the autobuilders got caught up. It would sure be nice to fix the underlying problem, though -- perhaps, as I think someone already suggested, by having a gate in the process so that the archives are not updated until all of the binary packages from a single source package have rebuilt. No, that is the wrong fix, the right fix is simply to keep all the arch:all packages that have assorted arch:any packages in the archive. Uh, that would be called testing. No, this is different. The idea is to not remove the older arch:any parts of a package when a new package is uploaded, simply that at the source level the unstable archive be consistent for all arches. Right now, if a source package A contains two packages B (arch: all), and C (arch: any), if you had version 1 previously in the archive, and are uploading version 2 on some arch (let's say m68k for the fun of it), and that the relationship between B and C is that it should be the exact same version of both which should be in the archive, then during the laps between the upload of package 2, and the moment all autobuilders have finished uploading it, the package is uninstallable on arches who have not yet finished rebuilding the arch (or because version 2 FTBFS on those arches or whatever). The solution is simple, altough may be complicated to implement. We need only to allow the archive to contain files indexed by source package, and use not only the version, but the version per architecture or something such. Or are you suggesting that we implement a new fourth distribution between testing and unstable, which requires that all arches are built, but does not require the 2-10 day testing period? Sounds kinda over-the-top to me. Let's just not remove the packages from the archive before the new version is available, and that would be all. Right now a upload in the condition above done shortly before dinstall run will break all other arches for at least one day, and there is a simple solution to solve this. Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: menu-method for .desktop files?
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 03:54:12PM +, Peter Collingbourne wrote: Hi I notice discussion on bug #241554 regarding a menu-method for .desktop files used by KDM/GDM for window manager sessions. Has any progress been made on this? If not I would like to volunteer for it. I definitely think it would be a useful thing to have, considering the majority of window managers still do not provide .desktop files. My offer to write the menu-method still stand. However I have got absolutly no answer from KDM/GDM people. I will try to write it if you are willing to try to push it forward. Please bcc me any replies replacing no.spam with doc.ic.ac.uk as I am not subscribed to the list and do not wish to receive spam. Oh my. Cheers, -- Bill. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Imagine a large red swirl here.
Re: charsets in debian/control
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 04:42:24PM -0500, Daniel Burrows wrote: On Sunday 05 December 2004 03:32 pm, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote: Would Peter permit me a mild dissent? I prefer Latin-1. Reason: I can recognize and distinguish Latin-1 characters, even when I do not always understand the words they spell. Recognizing and distinguishing the characters is important to me. And not just to me. Imagine the dismay of a Korean user trying to read Arabic script in a control file. But the only field in UTF8 should be Maintainer, and that field should have (IMHO) also a roman transliterate for the name, if you don't use a latin charset (Greek, Arabic, Japanese, Chinese...) Well, when aptitude gets UTF8 support, it'll decode all the control fields that are mainly meant for human consumption: that means at least Description in addition to the Maintainer field, and maybe also Section. I don't see any reason to limit ourselves in the long term by sticking to Latin1 (or ASCII) just because none of us can read all of the languages that are available in the extended UTF8 namespace. If we want people to stick to certain subsets of UTF8, that should be determined in Policy, not the packaging software. If you want a practical concern (aside from, say, a general suspicion of building policy into software tools), consider these cases: - Someone wants to translate the Description fields of all packages in Debian into Chinese or Arabic. What will they do if the package tools only support Latin-1? - Someone wants to use the Debian packaging tools to create a new distribution for use in China. Again, what will they do if the package tools only support Latin-1? Isn't there a proposal around for Description#en: English text Description#ja: Japanese text etc? I can see that this would have to be split somehow to avoid the Packages file suddenly filling CD1 on its own, but... -- Paul TBBle Hampson, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 7th year CompSci/Asian Studies student, ANU Shorter .sig for a more eco-friendly paperless office. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:35:52PM +0100, Jonas Meurer wrote: On 05/12/2004 Wouter Verhelst wrote: you may run into big troubles if you tolerate a violent ideology - it's no longer about thoughts but more about brutality. Not if you're merely voicing those thoughts. sure, voicing those thoughts without practicing them is not the problem. but (to come closer to the original topic) at least abusing female humans as sex objects and using the photographs as exciter is about practicing the thoughts. and please don't tell me that just providing them is not the same as using them: they are only provided to be used this way! Reality check: *there are no photographs of women in this thread*. ObRC: 282347 -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#284370: ITP: dak -- dak - Debian Archive Maintenance Scripts
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: dak Version : 1.0 Upstream Author : James Troup [EMAIL PROTECTED] and a few others * URL or Web page : http://cvs.debian.org/dak/?cvsroot=dak * License : GPL Description: Debian's archive maintenance scripts This is a collection of archive maintenance scripts used by the Debian project. You don't want to use this if you only have a few hundred packages to maintain. Look at mini-dinstall or debarchiver or maybe even apt-ftparchive for this. This is for a big archive, but there it is the best you can get. You need a running postgresql, but as this can be on some other host its only a Suggests - install package postgresql if you want it local. The package is still not finished (only about 2 weeks used for it at the moment), but its in a good enough state now to give it away for tests. At the moment I need some small fixes to the default setup, and I want to include another small script for user-handling. But it works nearly out of the box now, just a few steps that cant be automated (or for which I havent found the time/fun to automate them). At the moment its already running here and doing its job as it should, so it works at least for me. But I would like feedback from others before I upload it into the Archive. You can find it at http://ganneff.de/dak/pool/main/d/dak/ or use http://ganneff.de/dak/ for your sources.list as you would with a normal debian mirror, its the same structure, its running with dak. Well, that /dak/* is a bit messy at the moment, as I included more than I need in my config, but hey, its for my tests. :) -- bye Joerg Das kannst du vielleicht mir erzaehlen, aber nicht jemanden, der Ahnung hat. pgpawBpnDvpQo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#283578: ITP: hot-banknote -- monetary graphical system activity monitor
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: hot-banknote Version : 0.2.1 Upstream Authors: David Odin [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cyprien Laplace [EMAIL PROTECTED] graphics: Eugène Delacroix and others. * URL : http://scnr.org/hot-banknote * License : Artistic License/Public Domain Description : a system activity monitor for money-loving people hot-banknote is a small graphical utility which display the system activity in a very special way. When the CPU is idle, it displays a 20 French Francs banknote, and when the activity goes up, the banknote value increases to finish by a 500 French Francs banknote. . The banknotes are French banknotes that were in use until the early 1990. . Warning: the 100 French Francs banknote displays the 'Liberty Leading the People' by Eugène Delacroix which picture the Liberty as a bare-breasted woman. . Of course, if you can be shocked by money or nudity, don't use it! SCNR, -- Bill Imagine a large red swirl here.
Re: Hot-Babe non-controversial images
On Sat, 2004-12-04 at 13:42 +0100, Frederik Schueler wrote: Hello, On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 10:52:55PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: An earlier suggestion to show a lamb in various states of shear, and then roasted at 100% was also good. As a vegeterian I have to strongly object on this. ;-) In the development of that pretty nice template, no lamb or animal in general, will be hurt, really. I promise :) -- David Moreno Garza [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.damog.net/ GPG: 356E16CD - 84F0 E180 8AF6 E8D0 842F B520 63F3 08DB 356E 16CD I went to a meeting for premature ejaculators. I left early.
ITP: lapispuzzle.app -- almost a clone of Street Puzzle Fighter
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: lapispuzzle.app Version : 0.9.1 Upstream Author : Banlu Kemiyatorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://home.gna.org/garma/lapispuzzle/index.html * License : GNU GPL Description : almost a clone of Street Puzzle Fighter Lapis Puzzle is a game that is almost a clone of Street Puzzle Fighter (TM). If you can't figure out the rule, press A on start and learn from machine vs. machine mode. -- System Information: Debian Release: testing/unstable Architecture: powerpc Kernel: Linux ibook 2.4.23-ben1 #7 Sat Dec 27 11:20:38 CET 2003 ppc Locale: LANG=POSIX, LC_CTYPE=POSIX pgphayTorwFiW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-banknote -- monetary graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:38 +0100, Bill Allombert wrote: [snip] Warning: the 100 French Francs banknote displays the 'Liberty Leading the People' by Eugène Delacroix which picture the Liberty as a bare-breasted woman. . Of course, if you can be shocked by money or nudity, don't use it! Naked French women wanting 100FF shock me? :P -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. The pacifist is as surely a traitor to his country and to humanity as is the most brutal wrongdoer. Theodore Roosevelt signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Legal budget and Director-and-officer insurance related to packages with adult themes
Andrew, I worked on the patent and copyright issues because Debian and indeed all of Free Software would be up the river if people did not work on it. I have arranged more than $120K of grants to work on this since leaving HP. That is not the case for packages with questionable images and dialogue. I'm not volunteering, and neither are the people who gave me money. You or Manoj or other people who care about the issue should take a turn. And Debian should fund the necessary legal research into the problem until such a date as you can find donors. I hope you're not advocating that continue to remain ignorant about the implications of the issue. That could be suicide for the project. Thanks Bruce Andrew Suffield wrote: You go off and do that then, and leave the rest of us out of it like you did with the much more serious issue of copyright and patent laws. You evidently managed it once without any money (since we haven't got any), so clearly you can do it again. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: charsets in debian/control
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 09:54:36AM +1100, Paul Hampson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't there a proposal around for Description#en: English text Description#ja: Japanese text And you'd advocate to write the English text in latin1 and the japanese text in euc-jp ? Let's make it clear: 1 text file, 1 encoding. Mike
Re: charsets in debian/control
Le lundi 06 décembre 2004 à 09:26 +0900, Mike Hommey a écrit : On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 09:54:36AM +1100, Paul Hampson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Isn't there a proposal around for Description#en: English text Description#ja: Japanese text And you'd advocate to write the English text in latin1 and the japanese text in euc-jp ? Let's make it clear: 1 text file, 1 encoding. Well, it's already the case for the generated localized debconf template files. Not that I believe it is a good thing... -- .''`. Josselin Mouette/\./\ : :' : [EMAIL PROTECTED] `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED] `- Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message =?ISO-8859-1?Q?num=E9riquement?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_sign=E9e?=
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 13:16 -0500, Nick Sillik wrote: On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 16:22 +0100, Paul Plop wrote: A flower may not be a good idea. For many specialists, a flower is a phallic representation. I could hurt some people's sensibility. Paul I was thinking that we could use pictures of the Eiffel Tower or Washington Monument in various stages of construction. skinnable images is the best idea in this situation. That way, whatever pictures you want, you can have. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Anyone who thinks that religion is Sooo Eeevil should remember: - The number of Soviet citizens that the religion is the opiate of the masses Soviets killed or let starve is between 20M and 60M. - The number of Chinese killed or allowed to starve by the Chinese Communists is estimated to be as many as 66M. Now *that* is True Evil. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Legal budget and Director-and-officer insurance related to packages with adult themes
Josselin Mouette wrote: Then maybe we could research whether this material is questionable at all. It's not as if hot-babe contained pr0n pictures. Yes. Currently, every time the problem comes up we argue about our own individual definitions of what is and is not questionable because we have not come to any definition for the project, or any process to go along with the definition. Thanks Bruce
Re: charsets in debian/control
[Thaddeus H. Black] Would Peter permit me a mild dissent? I prefer Latin-1. Dissents are fine. (: The reason to go with UTF-8 is for consistency. Tools that wish to render text onto the screen ought to be able to depend on knowing the encoding that text is in. See below for why I (and many others) think UTF-8 is the right choice for an encoding to standardize on. I do not deny that Latin-1 represents all the languages I can read, and that this fact may color my view. Nevertheless to me a source written in Chinese is effectively non-free. It might as well be a compiled binary blob. Consider packages intended for speakers of other languages: for example, an Urdu dictionary. The Description field would traditionally describe the package both in English and in Urdu (which uses the Arabic alphabet), and I think that's perfectly fine: the target audience can read its description more easily, and the rest of us can read the English. Now extrapolate to cases involving arbitrary languages, and this is possible only if the Description field uses an encoding of Unicode. (Well, one could invent an extra header to specify the character set, but that seems pointless in the extreme.) UTF-8 is by far the best encoding of Unicode for our purposes, since it was designed to be compatible with tools that parse ASCII. Other Unicode encodings have null bytes and other ASCII values embedded in non-ASCII characters. You can argue, and I would agree, that the Maintainer and Uploaders fields (the only fields other than Description where we are likely to see non-ASCII text) ought to be written in roman letters. People involved with Debian development are required to know a certain amount of English in any case, so the roman alphabet is a common denominator. And, unlike the Description field, it's awkward to try and have both native glyphs and a roman transliteration. However, I see no reason to tell Eastern Europeans that they cannot write their names natively; interpreting Eastern European diacritics is no harder for people who don't speak those languages than interpreting Western European diacritics for people who don't speak those. Peter signature.asc Description: Digital signature
RE: charsets in debian/control
Thaddeus H. Black wrote: I do not deny that Latin-1 represents all the languages I can read, and that this fact may color my view. Nevertheless to me a source written in Chinese is effectively non-free. It might as well be a compiled binary blob. So Emacs is effectively non-free, because I don't speak Lisp. Heh, good one! ;-)
Re: Questionable image process. Was: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- (abusive?) erotic images in Debian
Andrew M.A. Cater wrote: You're looking at this from a US-centric viewpoint, Bruce, and extending this to the whole Project. Because I am one of the people with legal responsibility for the U.S. incarnation of the project. I acknowledge that there are many other jurisdictions where our people can get into trouble, note my comment regarding non-US not being adequate to solve the problem. Somewhere else in the thread I made the point that people have to respect each other and that everyone using Debian is subject to local laws. That is two different issues: 1: Developers should respect each other. 2: Developers in various localities can get in legal hot water due to the conduct of other developers who don't run the same risk. I would hope that respect for each other includes doing what we can to keep the other guy out of hot water. Advice of US counsel means very little. There are 50 states... In the U.S. we mostly want to know about New York, where we are incorporated, and the Federal government, which has jurisdiction for interstate commerce. And yes, there are 220 other countries, but there are other industries that have had to deal with that problem: book publishing and film. You could start by searching on Amazon to see if people in those industries have written any books on the topic. Thanks Bruce
Re: Questionable image process. Was: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- (abusive?) erotic images in Debian
Ron Johnson wrote: Would country/region-specific jigdo files be a reasonable solution? I don't think we've enumerated all of the data paths that can generate problems. I guess jigdo means the general category of CDs. To that I would add the package list presented by the various apt frontends. One should have to take some deliberate action before seeing those files. This might be choosing an appropriately marked Jigdo file, or adding a package repository. Thanks Bruce
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 03:55:27PM +, Matthew Garrett wrote: Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] freedom of expression constitutes one of the essential foundations of a democratic society and one of the basic conditions for its progress and each individual's self-fulfilment. [...] it is applicable not only to information or ideas that are favourably received or regarded as inoffensive or as a matter of indifference, but also to those that offend, shock or disturb. Such are the demands of pluralism, tolerance and broadmindedness, without which there is no democratic society. Debian is not a democratic society. You carefully deleted the part where I said that was a lousy name for it. The original authors have a 'democracy' fetish; they meant 'free'. It is not intended to be a source of all information known to man. It is supposed to be a project to produce a Free operating system. That means: a) Things that are not useful should not be in there For a very weak definition of 'should', and a very broad definition of 'useful', sure. b) Things that are gratuitously insulting to a large number of people should not be there unless they're fantastically useful That's entirely arbitrary. You can't just make this stuff up. In no sense does this follow from the stuff quoted above. You've also introduced the undefined quantifiers 'gratuitously', 'insulting', 'large', and 'fantastically', so that can mean anything you want. Having this argument over a program that is entirely useless in the first place just makes it harder to have a proper discussion in the cases where it actually matters. On the contrary, it makes it easier (you are aware that this is not the first time this subject has occurred?). Or, putting it another way: failing to include this piece of code does Debian no demonstrable harm. However, deliberately refusing to include it because of some people whining does Debian quite significant, demonstrable harm. It indicates that merely by whining loud enough you can eject arbitrary code from Debian. Including it does. Can't see any. If you're trying to raise the old Debian must attract more users thing then we've been over it so many times already: Debian in no sense gains or loses from changes in its userbase of less than an order of magnitude. And it's only the accuracy of bug reporting that improves anyway. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 12:21:04PM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote: On 05-Dec-04, 09:07 (CST), Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 08:45:56AM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote: On 05-Dec-04, 04:55 (CST), James Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's no excuse for censorship, ever. Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a given package is NOT censorship. And telling somebody else that they can't distribute a given package IS censorship. I haven't told anyone that they can't distribute it. We, Debian, can choose not to distribute certain materials w/o it being censorship. You say it as if the whole project was in agreement about something. What is actually happening here is that one individual Debian developer is choosing to distribute a given package, and some other developers are trying to stop them. That's censorship. Even if they don't have the authority to do it (that just makes it ineffective censorship). -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Steve Greenland wrote: Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a given package is NOT censorship. We are not telling people that they can't install, use, and/or distribute the package, just that we don't care to make it available as an official Debian package from our servers. This is not a subtle difference. Steve Agreed. We are obligated to respect your right of free speech. We aren't obligated to provide the venue for your speech. Thanks Bruce
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 08:52:59AM +1100, Ben Burton wrote: I find the notion of introducing censorship in order to not 'hurt their feelings' to be morally repugnant. Yes yes, I understand why you don't like it. What I wanted was an explanation of why objecting to this package was probably _more_ offensive than proposing it. Oh no, there's the possibility that somebody else might look at some low quality porn versus Other people are actively forcing their beliefs onto us. Isn't it obvious? (Bearing in mind that in this context, censorship simply means not shipping with debian, as opposed to attempting to deny access altogether.) That's what censorship means in every context, under any practical definition. It's impossible to deny access altogether to anything. It has been proven endless times that once you start doing this, you can't stop. For any package, there is going to be some minority group that is offended by it. Sounds to me like your problem is not so much with the objection, but with its expected implementation. There's only one way this ever goes. Any student of history should be familiar with how this plays out. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Sunday 05 December 2004 08:25 pm, Andrew Suffield wrote: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 12:21:04PM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote: On 05-Dec-04, 09:07 (CST), Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 08:45:56AM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote: On 05-Dec-04, 04:55 (CST), James Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's no excuse for censorship, ever. Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a given package is NOT censorship. And telling somebody else that they can't distribute a given package IS censorship. I haven't told anyone that they can't distribute it. We, Debian, can choose not to distribute certain materials w/o it being censorship. You say it as if the whole project was in agreement about something. What is actually happening here is that one individual Debian developer is choosing to distribute a given package, and some other developers are trying to stop them. That's censorship. Even if they don't have the authority to do it (that just makes it ineffective censorship). Actually, the developer is choosing to have Debian distribute a package, and others are trying to stop Debian from distributing the package. No one (as far as I know) has tried to stop the developer from distributing it from his own webspace. So, in this case, assuming those opposed to Debian distributing the package succeed in keeping it out of Debian, I don't think it would be censorship. Josh
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Andrew Suffield wrote: What is actually happening here is that one individual Debian developer is choosing to distribute a given package, and some other developers are trying to stop them. No developer has attempted to stop another developer from distributing that package. All that has been discussed is whether the Debian project should distribute that package. Debian's official repository is not the only way in which packages can be distributed. Thanks Bruce
Re: Legal budget and Director-and-officer insurance related to packages with adult themes
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 04:23:25PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: I worked on the patent and copyright issues because Debian and indeed all of Free Software would be up the river if people did not work on it. I have arranged more than $120K of grants to work on this since leaving HP. That is not the case for packages with questionable images and dialogue. I'm not volunteering, and neither are the people who gave me money. Then file a bug, but don't whinge about how other people aren't doing something that you care about. That's how Debian works. You do the stuff you're interested in (frequently without mentioning it to anybody else, in some cases). Your Chicken Little act is not impressing anybody. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-banknote -- monetary graphical system activity monitor
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 12:38:36AM +0100, Bill Allombert wrote: Warning: the 100 French Francs banknote displays the 'Liberty Leading the People' by Eugène Delacroix which picture the Liberty as a bare-breasted woman. This passes the soley designed to appeal to the prurient interest test and is not pornographic. Lady Liberty modified in some way that alters the meaning would have to be reconsidered. When I saw boobies on the German equivalent of Entertainment Tonight at 7:30 pm in Frankfurt, I was very disaapointed that they all appeared to be fake boob jobs. It was like a low-budget skin rag here.
Re: charsets in debian/control
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:32:00PM +0100, Jose Carlos Garcia Sogo wrote: But the only field in UTF8 should be Maintainer, and that field should have (IMHO) also a roman transliterate for the name, if you don't use a latin charset (Greek, Arabic, Japanese, Chinese...) The transliterated field should be called 'Maintainer'. If you want some other freaky encoding, unsupported by the older tools, put it in a new field. Using the old field just breaks stuff for no reason. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Oh no, there's the possibility that somebody else might look at some low quality porn versus Other people are actively forcing their beliefs onto us. Isn't it obvious? ... That's what censorship means in every context, under any practical definition. It's impossible to deny access altogether to anything. Hmm? I didn't think people were trying to restrict access -- at least I presume nobody is under the delusion that keeping hot-babe out of debian would make it any more difficult to access such material. There are other reasons for choosing not to ship a package with a distribution. It has been proven endless times that once you start doing this, you can't stop. For any package, there is going to be some minority group that is offended by it. Sounds to me like your problem is not so much with the objection, but with its expected implementation. There's only one way this ever goes. Any student of history should be familiar with how this plays out. shrug. At least in .au we have some legislation to protect minority groups but we're not living in a totalitarian PC clampdown. b.
Re: Questionable image process. Was: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- (abusive?) erotic images in Debian
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 05:15:50PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: Somewhere else in the thread I made the point that people have to respect each other and that everyone using Debian is subject to local laws. That is two different issues: 1: Developers should respect each other. Which means not forcing their beliefs onto others. 2: Developers in various localities can get in legal hot water due to the conduct of other developers who don't run the same risk. That sounds pretty unlikely. The project does not exist as a legal entity (but rather uses quasi-independent holding companies like SPI) for this reason (as well as the logistical difficulties it would present). If your country routinely holds you responsible for the actions of people in other countries who you just happen to communicate with on occasion, or that you share interests with, then you really need to emigrate or revolt. Mine doesn't. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
