Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
Mike Hommey schreef: > On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 10:45:06AM -0500, alfredo diega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > >>On 9/21/06, Ben Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>>- >>>I can see you're frustrated. You've invested a lot of energy into >>>writing this note to us about a problem you see in Debian. Now, if it >>>really does pain you to write it, the least you could do is tell us >>>what your hardware is. Otherwise, how do you expect us to make things >>>better for you? >>> >>>Regards, >>>Ben >>> >> >>Okay: Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG. According to this message at >>bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=363967 it isn't packaged because: > > > Note that this driver requires a "binary user space regulatory > daemon", and thus will never be in debian. At most, in non-free. There is a new driver what does not need the daemon: http://intellinuxwireless.org/?p=iwlwifi http://kerneltrap.org/node/7704 With regards, Paul van der Vlis. -- http://www.vandervlis.nl/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
Am 2006-09-21 16:42:27, schrieb alfredo diega: > What is the best community distro based on free software that isn't > so free that it doesn't work. I guess that right now is Ubuntu. No Debian ;-) I have tried to run Ubunto as Server (for testing) and failed... So the best community distro based on free software is Debian. Do you get this? Ubuntu is for hobby Computer users which do not care about stability but in features... like under those CS-OS from R. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 11:28:02PM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote: > and reverse engineering. The out-of-tree patches at the > time of 2.6.17 result in much faster transfers to SDHCI > devices. I don't know if dapper has these, and I don't > know if they made 2.6.18. I think that was one of the biggest changes in 2.6.18, the better SDHCI support. So yes, they made it :) Reference: http://mmc.drzeus.cx/wiki/Linux/Drivers/sdhci: Download 2.6.18-rc1 or newer to get that version of the driver. Greetings Torsten signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
On Friday 22 September 2006 00:42, alfredo diega wrote: > On 9/21/06, Thaddeus H. Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I ask you, is that > > fair? > > Well, I guess it isn't fair. Look, have any of you ever sent an email out > of > frustration, then wish you could take it back? I am sorry, I hope somebody > will forgive me. > > I just need to loose my pride and switch to Ubuntu. I haven't and I know > the > LUG here will laugh at me and tell me "We told you so" but what you say is > true. Different goals. What I was telling my friends was I wanted to use > the best community distro based on free software out there. I thought it If you think it is community based distro, and you want more frequent stable releases (say, one release per year, i.e. every December before the Christmas holidays ;-) then you might want to help to keep testing (resp. unstable) as close as possible to a reasonable releaseable state. This means sending decent bugreports, patches, etc. ... that should be community-made I belive, and not just shouting out 'oh, can't wait, your old software doesn't not support my new hardware'. > was Debian and maybe it still is but I guess I need to ask myself: What is > the best community distro based on free software that isn't so free that it > doesn't work. I guess that right now is Ubuntu. Will you approach ubuntu's mailing lists the same way when next Debian Stable got released with much more current software than the latest Ubuntu Stable release ? -- pub 4096R/0E4BD0AB 2003-03-18 fingerprint 1AE7 7C66 0A26 5BFF DF22 5D55 1C57 0C89 0E4B D0AB -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
\ Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 04:42:27PM -0500, alfredo diega wrote: > I just need to loose my pride and switch to Ubuntu. I haven't and I know > the LUG here will laugh at me and tell me "We told you so" but what you > say is true. Different goals. What I was telling my friends was I wanted > to use the best community distro based on free software out there. It's an indispensable trait of community distros that problems get solved when someone "scratches an itch" because they /need/ the problem to be solved. In either Ubuntu or in Debian there are certainly developers who care about supporting as much hardware as possible, but none of them will ever care about *your* computer as much as *you* do personally -- so the truly great thing about community distros is that even if you're not a programmer, you have more options than passively accepting the limitations or switching distros: you can scratch your own itch by filing bug reports, to help the developers help you. > I thought it was Debian and maybe it still is but I guess I need to ask > myself: What is the best community distro based on free software that > isn't so free that it doesn't work. I guess that right now is Ubuntu. Well, it's certainly the case that not everyone agrees with the particular balance that Debian chooses between utility and freeness, but I also think that some of the problems you're running into are simply bugs, not ideological conflicts. You may be right that this means Ubuntu is a better fit for your needs than Debian is today, anyway; even in Free Software, "one size fits all" doesn't always fit well, no matter how much we'd love for everyone to be wearing Debian. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
Am Donnerstag 21 September 2006 23:58 schrieb Amaya: > I guess you were "blessed" with an ugly piece of hardware with freedom > issues in its support. It is going to take some time until it is ready, > probably in a part of our archive that is labeled as non-free, and > maybe, as you own this hardware, you might even be interested in helping > out, if you are not so angry anymore, at least at the later testing > stages. Both distros would benefit from this work, btw. With every distribution or OS (name any) you get to a point where not everything works with the shipped set of utilities and drivers. After all, the current situation is not worse than it was ten years ago when patching and self-compiling kernels was the only way to go. I still find it questionable to change distribution because they have _that_ package and another doesn't. So what? It's about the same issue like all those non-sense test that compare distribution by looking at the installation process. I agree though that there is no major difference between e.g. the madwifi driver and that utility for the 3945ABG. I wouldn't care though if none of the two are in Debian, even though I own an Atheros card. Sure, installing the firmware for bcm43xx like with the debian package is very easy but doing it without it is a manageable task. It should be no major problem to install that piece of non-free software. It is already there. And if installing something beyond using aptitude or even dpkg is too heavy for a user, he should ask someone who knows. Oh wait, he could learn something but many do not want to learn anything. It must be pre-chewed and reading some short installation instruction is surely no way to go, is it? Changing to another distribution does not change the cause of insufficient knowledge about the system. And the next problem will come. Personally, I like it that Debian tries hard to keep it a place for free software (although sometimes it gets absurd). And if it implies some restrictions or upstream authors that do not want to understand (guess who), well, everything has ups and downs. However, there are times when this POV results in better solutions (loadable instead of driver-embedded firmware is such a case). Let nomads go their way... HS pgpUVGqxUEyQK.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
At 1158835506 past the epoch, alfredo diega wrote: > Next: SD drive, works with Ubuntu with their "free > stuuf." Probably isn't supported by policy either. Without more specifics I can't be sure, but if it's an sdhci device, the driver was merged into mainline starting with 2.6.17. I believe dapper carries 2.6.16, and I think one of their kernel gurus backported the sdhci driver patches to that kernel[1] so that hardware support would be present for the release, prior to it being officially in the kernel. Again I'm not 100% sure here but I think the default kernel in Etch will be 2.6.17 or greater so the odds are that your driver should work out-of-the-box by the time we actually release. Either way, 2.6.17 is available in etch to apt-get right now. [1] Actually, the sdhci people rewrote the driver a great deal shortly after 2.6.17 came out because they got ahold of a spec for the device, finally. They had previously written everything based on very scant info and reverse engineering. The out-of-tree patches at the time of 2.6.17 result in much faster transfers to SDHCI devices. I don't know if dapper has these, and I don't know if they made 2.6.18. -- Jon Dowland http://alcopop.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
alfredo diega wrote: > Well, I guess it isn't fair. Look, have any of you ever sent an email > out of frustration, then wish you could take it back? I am sorry, I > hope somebody will forgive me. We all have, no big deal. > I just need to loose my pride and switch to Ubuntu. No, you just need to have a good laugh about this all. I suggest: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Debian http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu I think humor comes in handy to deal with hardware pain ;) I have a tshirt that says: "Debian: Good things come to those who... wait". I love it beacuse it is both fun and true. Things may work a bit differently here, but we do care about our users. I think freedom is important to our users, and while I also understand your fustration, we do emphazise freedom. I guess you were "blessed" with an ugly piece of hardware with freedom issues in its support. It is going to take some time until it is ready, probably in a part of our archive that is labeled as non-free, and maybe, as you own this hardware, you might even be interested in helping out, if you are not so angry anymore, at least at the later testing stages. Both distros would benefit from this work, btw. Have fun! -- ·''`. If I can't dance to it, it's not my revolution : :' :-- Emma Goldman `. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (unstable) `- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
On 9/21/06, Thaddeus H. Black <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I ask you, is thatfair? Well, I guess it isn't fair. Look, have any of you ever sent an email out of frustration, then wish you could take it back? I am sorry, I hope somebody will forgive me. I just need to loose my pride and switch to Ubuntu. I haven't and I know the LUG here will laugh at me and tell me "We told you so" but what you say is true. Different goals. What I was telling my friends was I wanted to use the best community distro based on free software out there. I thought it was Debian and maybe it still is but I guess I need to ask myself: What is the best community distro based on free software that isn't so free that it doesn't work. I guess that right now is Ubuntu.
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:45:06 -0500 "alfredo diega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Lastly, suspend doesn't work with Debian but does with Dapper. What kind of suspend? suspend-to-ram (S3), (user space) software suspend to disk? How do you trigger it? FWIW, the kernels in dapper and unstable both have the possibility to suspend (to ram and disk). Suspend to disk should mostly works on PC-hardware. Suspend to ram is a bit more tricky, but I think ubuntu has the same software as debian, in this case. I could be however, that ubuntu installs packages by default which debian doesn't. grts Tim signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
On Thu, Sep 21, 2006 at 10:45:06AM -0500, alfredo diega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 9/21/06, Ben Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >- > >I can see you're frustrated. You've invested a lot of energy into > >writing this note to us about a problem you see in Debian. Now, if it > >really does pain you to write it, the least you could do is tell us > >what your hardware is. Otherwise, how do you expect us to make things > >better for you? > > > >Regards, > >Ben > > > > Okay: Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG. According to this message at > bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=363967 it isn't packaged because: Note that this driver requires a "binary user space regulatory daemon", and thus will never be in debian. At most, in non-free. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
alfredo diega wrote: > Okay: Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG. According to this message at > bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=363967 it isn't packaged > because: > > "there is still an official statement of -release and -kernel about the > policy for oot-modules in etch missing." > > showing it just isn't in Debian because policy. Please read down to the bottom of the whole bug you cited above. Two developers are actively working on this, and there are technical problems with the package. Furthermore, you appear to be mistaken about Debian policy. Perhaps this is simply a matter of language. See: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ This key document is the technical foundation upon which the entire Debian distribution is built. Without it, you would not have the quality distribution you now enjoy. > Next: SD drive, works with Ubuntu with their "free stuuf." Probably > isn't > supported by policy either. I can't comment, as you have not given details. > Lastly, suspend doesn't work with Debian but does with Dapper. Again, without even a bug# reference, this is hard for me to check. > I am not an expert with all the technical specifics, but when I see > messages > like this from the release manager: > lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2006/09/msg00453.html I don't see the connection between this and the one concrete example you gave above. > I conclude, why am I trying to wait patiently? Is Debian ever going to > support hardware where there is "free software" out there for it? > Because > of > a pios loyalty to a docoument and not to mankind I conclude not. The bug report that *you* cited above indicates otherwise. I see developers who are concerned about working on the problems you are so passionate about having fixed. I see a Debian that cares about its users. Regards, Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
On 9/21/06, Ben Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote: -I can see you're frustrated. You've invested a lot of energy intowriting this note to us about a problem you see in Debian. Now, if itreally does pain you to write it, the least you could do is tell us what your hardware is. Otherwise, how do you expect us to make things better for you?Regards,Ben Okay: Intel PRO/Wireless 3945ABG. According to this message at bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=363967 it isn't packaged because: "there is still an official statement of -release and -kernel about the policy for oot-modules in etch missing." showing it just isn't in Debian because policy. Next: SD drive, works with Ubuntu with their "free stuuf." Probably isn't supported by policy either. Lastly, suspend doesn't work with Debian but does with Dapper. I am not an expert with all the technical specifics, but when I see messages like this from the release manager: lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2006/09/msg00453.html I conclude, why am I trying to wait patiently? Is Debian ever going to support hardware where there is "free software" out there for it? Because of a pios loyalty to a docoument and not to mankind I conclude not. Alfredo Diega
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 09/21/06 08:46, Ben Armstrong wrote: > Alfredo, > > alfredo diega wrote: >>> It really pains me to write this since I have used stable for a long >>> time. >>> Unfortunately, I think you could use a wakeup call. >>> >>> Much of my hardware is never supported by you guys > > I can see you're frustrated. You've invested a lot of energy into > writing this note to us about a problem you see in Debian. Now, if it > really does pain you to write it, the least you could do is tell us > what your hardware is. Otherwise, how do you expect us to make things > better for you? The Psychic Friends Hotline? - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is "common sense" really valid? For example, it is "common sense" to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that "common sense" is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFEpv2S9HxQb37XmcRAtWdAJ93EkNUdjhGHv4USThvfQCxKmI1CwCfRdqQ sKV+SRCV0AYCPJkAyeo2hls= =khIt -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian cares more about documents than people
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alfredo, alfredo diega wrote: > It really pains me to write this since I have used stable for a long > time. > Unfortunately, I think you could use a wakeup call. > > Much of my hardware is never supported by you guys I can see you're frustrated. You've invested a lot of energy into writing this note to us about a problem you see in Debian. Now, if it really does pain you to write it, the least you could do is tell us what your hardware is. Otherwise, how do you expect us to make things better for you? Regards, Ben -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFEpe8WpTzygsnE8gRAsxnAKCevbb1aJ6OsnE3jK3m3P10QICWrACffNzd VnrZE22/G2IqmRZnjcTWegw= =xmj4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian cares more about documents than people
It really pains me to write this since I have used stable for a long time. Unfortunately, I think you could use a wakeup call. Much of my hardware is never supported by you guys even though it is "free enough" to be supported by the linux kernel and other community groups like Ubuntu. Dapper has supported all my hardware "out of the box" without third party or unsupported stuff which are *really* nonfree. Even though Dapper's "out of the box software" is "free enough" to be able to modify and redistribute, you guys still refuse to support much of it because of some document, which I am beginning to believe you care more about than people. If you cared about people why would you not want them to be able to use software? *HOW MUCH FREEDOM CAN PEOPLE REALLY HAVE IF THEY CANNOT EVEN RUN THE SOFTWARE*? The real reason Ubuntu is more popular is somebody had the ingenious idea that people should have software that works. You have software that doesn't work in that people can't use it, yet who cares about the people, you have your documents which are more important. :) As for the documents, you pick and choose which ones to follow. Like you guys really pay attention to the social contract on these mailing lists? I think not. Documents which force you to care about people(Social Contract) you freely ignore whereas documents which get you out of supporting your users hardware, you hold to. Obviously, people are not what matter to you guys. Alfredo Diega
