Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
Hi, Graham Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : On Thu, Apr 28, 2005 at 12:45:17PM +0200, Martin Mewes wrote: Pascal Hakim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : You might want to obscure those a little bit. You should probably munge the Return-Path from those emails, and possibly the top Received: header. Munging works are in queue. The Mbox-Project is working on this, right now I am only hosting the files. What are you talking about munging? Aren't all of the mbox files only available as compressed tarballs? Munging means, that all headers which should be necessary for archiving (and not doing harmful whings to threading) should be ... Date, From, To, Subject, Message-ID, Mail-Followup-To, References, Mime-Version, Content-Type, Content-Disposition, In-Reply-To, Resent-Message-ID, Resent-From, X-Mailing-List, X-Loop, The List-Headers, Resent-Sender, Resent-Date. In this case we will untar the archives, do a formail on them and repack them again some day. The only thing which matters right now is time to do it ;-) bis dahin/kind regards Martin Mewes -- FAQ fuer suse-linux@suse.com - http://www.suse-faq.de.vu/ FAQ fuer debian-user-german@lists.debian.org - http://www.de.debian.org/debian-user-german-FAQ/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
Hello, Lex Hider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : On 10:26 Thu 28 Apr , Martin Mewes wrote: http://mbox.mewes.tv/ exists :-) Great! This is exactly the kind of thing I'm after. Probably the month-by-month approach is most beneficial to me. I do think that it's a pity that this doesn't exist for before Nov-2004 [not your fault Martin, just making a general point]. Just realised that it's from 2002. D'oh! All Debian-Mboxes are contributed by Rene (Debian-DD) to this project and I only asked for archives back to Jan-2002. If there is more demand I will happily add older ones as well. bis dahin/kind regards Martin Mewes -- Fragen zur unbeaufsichtigten Installation von SuSE Linux sind hier ontopic: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Thu, Apr 28, 2005 at 02:38:34PM +1000, Pascal Hakim wrote: On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 23:20 -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It would be really handy to have archives of the debian mailing lists available as mbox archives. The correct solution, until someone gets around to exporting the mboxes, is to talk/grumble/whine about wanting the archive for some specific month and list, where developers can hear you. (IRC works, a mailing list might work.) Eventually someone will scp the relevant file and send it to you in some way, or give you shell access to a box with the archives so you can run a MUA right there. This might not be official procedure, but I've seen it work more than once. I rather doubt it would work for debian-private. The reason it hasn't been done so far is not related to any technical problem. There seems to be just as many people who do not want the mboxes to be available as people who do. Since most of the list archive team does seem to care a huge amount about that topic, nothing has been done. Debian developers can already access the mbox on master.d.o, so this is only an issue for non-DD which might explain the mixed reaction here (I am in favor of public mbox, if that matter.). As far as spam harvester are concerned, they can just subscribe to the mailing-lists to get the mail headers. Cheers, -- Bill. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Imagine a large red swirl here. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 03:53 -0500, Bill Allombert wrote: As far as spam harvester are concerned, they can just subscribe to the mailing-lists to get the mail headers. I think if they subscribe to the mailing list and use it for abuse they can easily be banned, whereas they can't be banned from a public archive very easily. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Friday 29 April 2005 06:50 am, David Mandelberg wrote: On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 03:53 -0500, Bill Allombert wrote: As far as spam harvester are concerned, they can just subscribe to the mailing-lists to get the mail headers. I think if they subscribe to the mailing list and use it for abuse they can easily be banned, whereas they can't be banned from a public archive very easily. How would you know which subscriber was harvesting e-mail addresses? Josh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
Josh Metzler wrote: How would you know which subscriber was harvesting e-mail addresses? Josh If the need ever comes, you can put a fake and distinct CC: address on each outgoing mail, that will point to a single subscriber. I would receive the same mail with CC:[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you, with CC:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If joshua.abcde gets spammed, it's my fault. if joshua.abcdf gets spammed, it's your fault. Obviously, this would need to be better elaborated, but it could work. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Thu, Apr 28, 2005 at 03:09:37PM +1000, Pascal Hakim wrote: retained by an mbox but not exposed to the web don't seem all that objectionable, especially since the web archives don't munge email addresses. They might one day. It's possible to restrict http://lists.debian.org to stop or slow down people leeching across the web archives. The day Debian maims its archives in such a way will be a sad day, indeed ... I suppose it'd be necessary for the exported mboxes to honor the No-External-Archive: yes and so forth, which might not be the case today (I've never gained access to them so I don't know). I actually have no idea whether we honour that already or not. As Branden put it[1], Debian's mailing lists are its nervous system, and our list archives our collective memory. I'd hope that such a header as No-External-Archive would never be honored (except perhaps to bounce the message--the only acceptable way to not be archived is to not post). [1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2002/03/msg00091.html -- Glenn Maynard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 03:03 -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote: On Thu, Apr 28, 2005 at 03:09:37PM +1000, Pascal Hakim wrote: retained by an mbox but not exposed to the web don't seem all that objectionable, especially since the web archives don't munge email addresses. They might one day. It's possible to restrict http://lists.debian.org to stop or slow down people leeching across the web archives. The day Debian maims its archives in such a way will be a sad day, indeed ... Why? I suppose it'd be necessary for the exported mboxes to honor the No-External-Archive: yes and so forth, which might not be the case today (I've never gained access to them so I don't know). I actually have no idea whether we honour that already or not. As Branden put it[1], Debian's mailing lists are its nervous system, and our list archives our collective memory. I'd hope that such a header as No-External-Archive would never be honored (except perhaps to bounce the message--the only acceptable way to not be archived is to not post). Do you believe such an attitude is helpful when, for example, we ask people to post on [EMAIL PROTECTED] with their D-I test results? I would say that a number of the people who do post their results are not aware of what they are getting themselves into. Pasc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 15:09 +1000, Pascal Hakim wrote: On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 23:55 -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote: [Pascal Hakim] The reason it hasn't been done so far is not related to any technical problem. There seems to be just as many people who do not want the mboxes to be available as people who do. Do these same people object to web archives of the lists? I'm curious, Some do. I've just read this again, after it was pointed out to me on IRC. That was not quite what I meant to say. (A retraction! I should be a politician!) I read in Peter's email what I wanted to read, rather than what he had actually written. I do not believe there's anyone who does not want any web archives of the lists; no one has seriously suggested that to me. On the other hand, there are a number of people who want lists.debian.org to provide only mangled web archives. Whether this includes mangled headers or email addresses, or simply missing messages depends on the request. Pasc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
Hello, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : It would be really handy to have archives of the debian mailing lists available as mbox archives. http://mbox.mewes.tv/ exists :-) bis dahin/kind regards Martin Mewes -- FAQ fuer suse-linux@suse.com - http://www.suse-faq.de.vu/ FAQ fuer debian-user-german@lists.debian.org - http://www.de.debian.org/debian-user-german-FAQ/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 10:26 +0200, Martin Mewes wrote: Hello, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : It would be really handy to have archives of the debian mailing lists available as mbox archives. http://mbox.mewes.tv/ exists :-) Heh. Nice work. You might want to obscure those a little bit. You should probably munge the Return-Path from those emails, and possibly the top Received: header. Cheers, Pasc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Thu, Apr 28, 2005 at 05:28:46PM +1000, Pascal Hakim wrote: On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 03:03 -0400, Glenn Maynard wrote: They might one day. It's possible to restrict http://lists.debian.org to stop or slow down people leeching across the web archives. The day Debian maims its archives in such a way will be a sad day, indeed ... Why? I regularly find people's contact information via list archives; several times, I've had to spend over an hour digging to find someone, because every archive I could find the person on messed with the contact information. I don't consider that an acceptable trade. Do you believe such an attitude is helpful when, for example, we ask people to post on [EMAIL PROTECTED] with their D-I test results? I would say that a number of the people who do post their results are not aware of what they are getting themselves into. I post regularly on Debian lists, and have done so for several years on multiple still-active email addresses, and with a default, completely untuned SpamAssassin installation and no Bayes, I see only a few junk mails a day. Sorry, but I'm just not particularly sympathetic to people who want to inconvenience others and reduce the utility of Debian's list archives for this purpose. -- Glenn Maynard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
Hi Pascal, Pascal Hakim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 10:26 +0200, Martin Mewes wrote: http://mbox.mewes.tv/ exists :-) Heh. Nice work. The first user feedback :-) You might want to obscure those a little bit. You should probably munge the Return-Path from those emails, and possibly the top Received: header. Munging works are in queue. The Mbox-Project is working on this, right now I am only hosting the files. bis dahin/kind regards Martin Mewes -- Richtiges Zitieren in Mailinglisten und Newsgroups - http://www.afaik.de/usenet/faq/zitieren/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Thu, Apr 28, 2005 at 12:45:17PM +0200, Martin Mewes wrote: Pascal Hakim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : You might want to obscure those a little bit. You should probably munge the Return-Path from those emails, and possibly the top Received: header. Munging works are in queue. The Mbox-Project is working on this, right now I am only hosting the files. What are you talking about munging? Aren't all of the mbox files only available as compressed tarballs? -- gram -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On 10:26 Thu 28 Apr , Martin Mewes wrote: Hello, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : It would be really handy to have archives of the debian mailing lists available as mbox archives. http://mbox.mewes.tv/ exists :-) Great! This is exactly the kind of thing I'm after. Probably the month-by-month approach is most beneficial to me. I do think that it's a pity that this doesn't exist for before Nov-2004 [not your fault Martin, just making a general point]. If it is decided not to have mbox archives, I think it is important to have this stated on a page somewhere on debian.org along with the reason why. I hadn't thought of the spam issue, and just had assumed that no-one thought it a useful thing to do. So basically, the main reason debian doesn't do this is so it isn't used by spammers to gather email addresses[?] A few questions/thoughts: * Is it really that more difficult to crawl through html archives than mboxes? I realize to crawl through a mbox is trivial, but I don't think that crawling through the html would be that more difficult and presumably spammers already have a certain degree of skill in doing this. It would also be pretty trivial to subscribe to a bunch of lists and get mail addresses that way. * Interesting to note that some other open-source projects do have mbox archives: gnome and ubuntu for example. http://mail.gnome.org/archives/gnome-devel-list/ http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel.mbox/ It would be interesting to know if they have difficulties associated with having mbox archives. * Having the current months mbox archive allows user to download, put ~/Mail or wherever and *then* subscribe to list. This means you don't receiving Re:SomeSubject emails that you don't have the parent to. * Having a lists entire ML as mbox archive is really handy to new contributor to list/project. E.G. Someone takes over as release manager. They could have a look at entire debian-release mails to get upto speed and to learn the necessary history. Of course you could check out the html archives, but we all now it's much quicker reading mail in your mailing app, and you can do a lot more powerful searches, etc. The above is just my 2 cents. I don't really understand the technical spam details, but I thought it would be handy for you all to know some ways that this feature would be a good thing. Lex. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On 14:39 Fri 29 Apr , Lex Hider wrote: On 10:26 Thu 28 Apr , Martin Mewes wrote: Hello, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote : It would be really handy to have archives of the debian mailing lists available as mbox archives. http://mbox.mewes.tv/ exists :-) Great! This is exactly the kind of thing I'm after. Probably the month-by-month approach is most beneficial to me. I do think that it's a pity that this doesn't exist for before Nov-2004 [not your fault Martin, just making a general point]. Just realised that it's from 2002. D'oh! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Fri, Apr 29, 2005 at 02:39:25PM +1000, Lex Hider wrote: So basically, the main reason debian doesn't do this is so it isn't used by spammers to gather email addresses[?] I would imagine the reason is more like not enough demand or nobody has ever bothered. Making mboxes available wouldn't make things any easier for address harvesters. (In practice I don't spend much time reading old threads, and it's more convenient to read a couple messages by Googling for a Message-ID than to download big mboxes. I wouldn't use them very much.) -- Glenn Maynard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
Hi, It would be really handy to have archives of the debian mailing lists available as mbox archives. Here are some relevant links: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=161440 http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/02/msg02978.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2003/02/msg02997.html It appears that it would be trivial to implement [?], but seems to have been forgotten about[?] I would like to be avaible to download them in one-per-month mbox format. Like the commenter on the bug-report, I can't see that they are available anywhere. Thoughts, tips, advice? Lex. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
[EMAIL PROTECTED] It would be really handy to have archives of the debian mailing lists available as mbox archives. The correct solution, until someone gets around to exporting the mboxes, is to talk/grumble/whine about wanting the archive for some specific month and list, where developers can hear you. (IRC works, a mailing list might work.) Eventually someone will scp the relevant file and send it to you in some way, or give you shell access to a box with the archives so you can run a MUA right there. This might not be official procedure, but I've seen it work more than once. I rather doubt it would work for debian-private. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 23:20 -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It would be really handy to have archives of the debian mailing lists available as mbox archives. The correct solution, until someone gets around to exporting the mboxes, is to talk/grumble/whine about wanting the archive for some specific month and list, where developers can hear you. (IRC works, a mailing list might work.) Eventually someone will scp the relevant file and send it to you in some way, or give you shell access to a box with the archives so you can run a MUA right there. This might not be official procedure, but I've seen it work more than once. I rather doubt it would work for debian-private. The reason it hasn't been done so far is not related to any technical problem. There seems to be just as many people who do not want the mboxes to be available as people who do. Since most of the list archive team does seem to care a huge amount about that topic, nothing has been done. Cheers, Pasc (with his listarchives maintainer hat on) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
[Pascal Hakim] The reason it hasn't been done so far is not related to any technical problem. There seems to be just as many people who do not want the mboxes to be available as people who do. Do these same people object to web archives of the lists? I'm curious, because I don't really see a qualitative difference. The headers retained by an mbox but not exposed to the web don't seem all that objectionable, especially since the web archives don't munge email addresses. I suppose it'd be necessary for the exported mboxes to honor the No-External-Archive: yes and so forth, which might not be the case today (I've never gained access to them so I don't know). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Publicly available mbox archives of debian mailing lists + Bug#161440
On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 23:55 -0500, Peter Samuelson wrote: [Pascal Hakim] The reason it hasn't been done so far is not related to any technical problem. There seems to be just as many people who do not want the mboxes to be available as people who do. Do these same people object to web archives of the lists? I'm curious, Some do. because I don't really see a qualitative difference. The headers It's easier to script through mboxes than through web archives. retained by an mbox but not exposed to the web don't seem all that objectionable, especially since the web archives don't munge email addresses. They might one day. It's possible to restrict http://lists.debian.org to stop or slow down people leeching across the web archives. I suppose it'd be necessary for the exported mboxes to honor the No-External-Archive: yes and so forth, which might not be the case today (I've never gained access to them so I don't know). I actually have no idea whether we honour that already or not. Pasc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
