Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-07 Thread Martin Wuertele
* Andrew Donnellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-04-06 23:19]:

 Or as Wouter pointed out on d-d port glibc.
 
Which I think would be most beneficial as it additianaly would minimize
the number of packages to add to the archive for the solaris port in
case nexentas work should become a debian subproject one day (and iirc
that was one of the goals).

yours Martin
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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-07 Thread Andrew Donnellan
I suppose porting glibc is quite important because it also minimises
the porting of everything else that may need to be adapted.

andrew

On 4/7/06, Martin Wuertele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 * Andrew Donnellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-04-06 23:19]:

  Or as Wouter pointed out on d-d port glibc.

 Which I think would be most beneficial as it additianaly would minimize
 the number of packages to add to the archive for the solaris port in
 case nexentas work should become a debian subproject one day (and iirc
 that was one of the goals).

 yours Martin
 --
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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-07 Thread Aurelien Jarno

Andrew Donnellan a écrit :

I suppose porting glibc is quite important because it also minimises
the porting of everything else that may need to be adapted.

True. I would add that most of the changes needs to build packages on 
non-linux systems using glibc has already been done by the GNU/Hurd and 
GNU/kFreeBSD ports.


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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-07 Thread Martin Wuertele
* Andrew Donnellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-04-07 11:35]:

 I suppose porting glibc is quite important because it also minimises
 the porting of everything else that may need to be adapted.
 
Yes, that's the point.

yours Martin
p.s. no need to cc me, I'm subscribed
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(...)
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   BTW, used female secretaries as examples of clueless users.

Strange. I'd have used Americans.
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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le mercredi 05 avril 2006 à 15:18 -0700, Erast Benson a écrit :
 Attached is the first in the series of dpkg patches which adds
 solaris-i386 architecture support used by NexentaOS.

Have you fixed the legal situation of dpkg being linked with a
GPL-incompatible C library?

Regards,
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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Andrew Donnellan
The GPL states that you can freely link with libraries normally
shipped with your OS or compiler, so I would think this would include
the C library.

andrew

On 4/6/06, Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Le mercredi 05 avril 2006 à 15:18 -0700, Erast Benson a écrit :
  Attached is the first in the series of dpkg patches which adds
  solaris-i386 architecture support used by NexentaOS.

 Have you fixed the legal situation of dpkg being linked with a
 GPL-incompatible C library?

 Regards,
 --
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 : :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 `. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Steve Langasek
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 05:41:04PM +1000, Andrew Donnellan wrote:
 The GPL states that you can freely link with libraries normally
 shipped with your OS or compiler,

No.  It says you may do this *if* you aren't shipping your GPLed binaries
together with those libraries.

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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Andrew Donnellan
Hmmm. Would this include 'mere aggregation'?

On 4/6/06, Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 05:41:04PM +1000, Andrew Donnellan wrote:
  The GPL states that you can freely link with libraries normally
  shipped with your OS or compiler,

 No.  It says you may do this *if* you aren't shipping your GPLed binaries
 together with those libraries.

 --
 Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
 Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/




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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Wouter Verhelst
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 05:41:04PM +1000, Andrew Donnellan wrote:
 The GPL states that you can freely link with libraries normally
 shipped with your OS or compiler, so I would think this would include
 the C library.

Unfortunately, it does not apply if the thing you ship is also part of
that same OS or compiler. Which is the case for dpkg (unless you're
not doing Debian, which I understand you are).

This could be fixed if you get a special exception from the
maintainer of every program you try to link with your libc, but I
suspect it's going to be easier to either port glibc to solaris, or get
Sun to relicense their code under something that is GPL-compatible.

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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Russ Allbery
Andrew Donnellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On 4/6/06, Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 No.  It says you may do this *if* you aren't shipping your GPLed
 binaries together with those libraries.

 Hmmm. Would this include 'mere aggregation'?

Yes.

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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Andrew Donnellan
The language in the GPL seems quite ambiguous; it could be argued that
this is really a violation of DFSG#9 (license must not contaminate) (I
wouldn't say it is), but it is ambiguous.

andrew

On 4/7/06, Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Andrew Donnellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  On 4/6/06, Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  No.  It says you may do this *if* you aren't shipping your GPLed
  binaries together with those libraries.

  Hmmm. Would this include 'mere aggregation'?

 Yes.

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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Russ Allbery
Andrew Donnellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The language in the GPL seems quite ambiguous;

The language in the GPL is not ambiguous and the meaning of this section
has been well-understood and widely discussed for years.

| The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
| making modifications to it.  For an executable work, complete source
| code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any
| associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control
| compilation and installation of the executable.  However, as a special
| exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is
| normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major
| components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on
| which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the
| executable.

The intention of this clause is to prohibit *exactly* what you are trying
to do.  This is not in any way an unintended consequence.  It is an
intentional part of the GPL and many people who place their code under the
GPL fully intended beforehand for this to be the implication.  You're only
allowed to take advantage of the OS clause if you are not distributing the
software along with the OS.  That clause is there to allow people to run
free software on non-free systems, not to provide a general loophole for
derivative binary works containing both GPL'd and GPL-incompatible code.

We already had this thread and several of those people stepped forward and
were quite explicit about their understanding of the license under which
their code was released.  If this is not what people want, they shouldn't
use the GPL.  Most software authors using the GPL are not stupid and are
quite capable of understanding and choosing all of the implications of
using the GPL.

 it could be argued that this is really a violation of DFSG#9 (license
 must not contaminate) (I wouldn't say it is), but it is ambiguous.

If you don't believe this is true, why are you bringing it up?  It's
obviously not true; DFSG #9 doesn't consider applying the license to
derivative works to be contamination, nor could it possibly do so and make
any sense.  The restriction is on the distribution of binaries, not on
anything else accompanying the binaries.  It is not even a restriction;
rather, the GPL contains a specific, targetted grant of extra privileges
that this use does not qualify for.  It is a special exception, akin to
the special exceptions that cover use of Autoconf-generated scripts, that
under extremely limited circumstances grants an exemption to one of the
core requirements of the GPL:

|   3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
| under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
| Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
| 
| a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
| source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
| 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
| 
| b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
| years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
| cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
| machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
| distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
| customarily used for software interchange; or,
| 
| c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer
| to distribute corresponding source code.  (This alternative is
| allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you
| received the program in object code or executable form with such
| an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

This use doesn't qualify for the exemption, and distributing binaries
linked against the Solaris libc libraries with their GPL-incompatible
license is otherwise in violation of the above requirements.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Andrew Donnellan
(d-l may give advice)

So now that's sorted out really Nexenta needs an exemption from
*every* copyright holder in dpkg, gcc, binutils, apt, coreutils, etc.
(the GNU utils would be easier as there is _usually_ only one
copyright holder: FSF) or OpenSolaris needs to relicense (impossible
as Sun wouldn't like it).

Also considering the recent debate on the MPL would the CDDL even be
considered free?

andrew

On 4/7/06, Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Andrew Donnellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  The language in the GPL seems quite ambiguous;

 The language in the GPL is not ambiguous and the meaning of this section
 has been well-understood and widely discussed for years.

 | The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
 | making modifications to it.  For an executable work, complete source
 | code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any
 | associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control
 | compilation and installation of the executable.  However, as a special
 | exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is
 | normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major
 | components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on
 | which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the
 | executable.

 The intention of this clause is to prohibit *exactly* what you are trying
 to do.  This is not in any way an unintended consequence.  It is an
 intentional part of the GPL and many people who place their code under the
 GPL fully intended beforehand for this to be the implication.  You're only
 allowed to take advantage of the OS clause if you are not distributing the
 software along with the OS.  That clause is there to allow people to run
 free software on non-free systems, not to provide a general loophole for
 derivative binary works containing both GPL'd and GPL-incompatible code.

 We already had this thread and several of those people stepped forward and
 were quite explicit about their understanding of the license under which
 their code was released.  If this is not what people want, they shouldn't
 use the GPL.  Most software authors using the GPL are not stupid and are
 quite capable of understanding and choosing all of the implications of
 using the GPL.

  it could be argued that this is really a violation of DFSG#9 (license
  must not contaminate) (I wouldn't say it is), but it is ambiguous.

 If you don't believe this is true, why are you bringing it up?  It's
 obviously not true; DFSG #9 doesn't consider applying the license to
 derivative works to be contamination, nor could it possibly do so and make
 any sense.  The restriction is on the distribution of binaries, not on
 anything else accompanying the binaries.  It is not even a restriction;
 rather, the GPL contains a specific, targetted grant of extra privileges
 that this use does not qualify for.  It is a special exception, akin to
 the special exceptions that cover use of Autoconf-generated scripts, that
 under extremely limited circumstances grants an exemption to one of the
 core requirements of the GPL:

 |   3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
 | under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
 | Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
 |
 | a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
 | source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
 | 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange;
 or,
 |
 | b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
 | years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
 | cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
 | machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
 | distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
 | customarily used for software interchange; or,
 |
 | c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer
 | to distribute corresponding source code.  (This alternative is
 | allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you
 | received the program in object code or executable form with such
 | an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

 This use doesn't qualify for the exemption, and distributing binaries
 linked against the Solaris libc libraries with their GPL-incompatible
 license is otherwise in violation of the above requirements.

 --
 Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])   http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/


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Get 

Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Andrew Donnellan
Or as Wouter pointed out on d-d port glibc.

andrew

On 4/7/06, Andrew Donnellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 (d-l may give advice)

 So now that's sorted out really Nexenta needs an exemption from
 *every* copyright holder in dpkg, gcc, binutils, apt, coreutils, etc.
 (the GNU utils would be easier as there is _usually_ only one
 copyright holder: FSF) or OpenSolaris needs to relicense (impossible
 as Sun wouldn't like it).

 Also considering the recent debate on the MPL would the CDDL even be
 considered free?

 andrew

 On 4/7/06, Russ Allbery [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Andrew Donnellan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
   The language in the GPL seems quite ambiguous;
 
  The language in the GPL is not ambiguous and the meaning of this section
  has been well-understood and widely discussed for years.
 
  | The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for
  | making modifications to it.  For an executable work, complete source
  | code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any
  | associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control
  | compilation and installation of the executable.  However, as a special
  | exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that
 is
  | normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major
  | components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on
  | which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the
  | executable.
 
  The intention of this clause is to prohibit *exactly* what you are trying
  to do.  This is not in any way an unintended consequence.  It is an
  intentional part of the GPL and many people who place their code under
 the
  GPL fully intended beforehand for this to be the implication.  You're
 only
  allowed to take advantage of the OS clause if you are not distributing
 the
  software along with the OS.  That clause is there to allow people to run
  free software on non-free systems, not to provide a general loophole for
  derivative binary works containing both GPL'd and GPL-incompatible code.
 
  We already had this thread and several of those people stepped forward
 and
  were quite explicit about their understanding of the license under which
  their code was released.  If this is not what people want, they shouldn't
  use the GPL.  Most software authors using the GPL are not stupid and are
  quite capable of understanding and choosing all of the implications of
  using the GPL.
 
   it could be argued that this is really a violation of DFSG#9 (license
   must not contaminate) (I wouldn't say it is), but it is ambiguous.
 
  If you don't believe this is true, why are you bringing it up?  It's
  obviously not true; DFSG #9 doesn't consider applying the license to
  derivative works to be contamination, nor could it possibly do so and
 make
  any sense.  The restriction is on the distribution of binaries, not on
  anything else accompanying the binaries.  It is not even a restriction;
  rather, the GPL contains a specific, targetted grant of extra privileges
  that this use does not qualify for.  It is a special exception, akin to
  the special exceptions that cover use of Autoconf-generated scripts, that
  under extremely limited circumstances grants an exemption to one of the
  core requirements of the GPL:
 
  |   3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,
  | under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of
  | Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
  |
  | a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable
  | source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections
  | 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software
 interchange;
  or,
  |
  | b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three
  | years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your
  | cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete
  | machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be
  | distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
  | customarily used for software interchange; or,
  |
  | c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer
  | to distribute corresponding source code.  (This alternative is
  | allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you
  | received the program in object code or executable form with such
  | an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)
 
  This use doesn't qualify for the exemption, and distributing binaries
  linked against the Solaris libc libraries with their GPL-incompatible
  license is otherwise in violation of the above requirements.
 
  --
  Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
 
 
  --
  To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact
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 --
 Andrew Donnellan
 

Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Alex Ross

Andrew Donnellan wrote:

(d-l may give advice)

So now that's sorted out really Nexenta needs an exemption from *every* 
copyright holder in dpkg, gcc, binutils, apt, coreutils, etc. (the GNU 
utils would be easier as there is _usually_ only one copyright holder: FSF)

 or OpenSolaris needs to relicense (impossible as Sun wouldn't like it).


Needs an exemption? Hmm... Here're a few links and some info, but first:
Disclaimer: This post *is not* an invitation for yet another GPL flamewar.

GPLv3 is available at [1]. The draft removes ambiguities of GPLv2, and in
particular, clarifies the old GPLv2 clause 3: You may copy and distribute the
Program ... During the discussion [2], Eben Moglen, General Counsel for the
Free Software Foundation, noted that he always believed that GPLv2 should be
interpreted in the way GPLv3 now makes explicit. Quoting [3]:

Eben made it very clear indeed that he does not regard the
issues that are being raised over Nexenta to be any
kind of a problem even under GPL v2...

More on the same at [3] and [4] by Simon Phipps, Chief Open Source Officer at 
Sun.

[1] http://gplv3.fsf.org/draft
[2] http://www.ifso.ie/documents/gplv3-launch-2006-01-16.html
[3] http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/webmink?entry=gpl_v3_released
[4] http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=21134#21134

OK, now back to the original post, the only purpose of which was to submit a
patch. I guess, we'll try Debian BTS.

Thanks!
--
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www.gnusolaris.org


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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Steve Langasek
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 04:24:10PM -0700, Alex Ross wrote:
 Andrew Donnellan wrote:
 (d-l may give advice)

 So now that's sorted out really Nexenta needs an exemption from *every* 
 copyright holder in dpkg, gcc, binutils, apt, coreutils, etc. (the GNU 
 utils would be easier as there is _usually_ only one copyright holder: FSF)
  or OpenSolaris needs to relicense (impossible as Sun wouldn't like it).

 Needs an exemption? Hmm... Here're a few links and some info, but first:
 Disclaimer: This post *is not* an invitation for yet another GPL flamewar.

 GPLv3 is available at [1]. The draft removes ambiguities of GPLv2, and in
 particular, clarifies the old GPLv2 clause 3: You may copy and distribute 
 the
 Program ... During the discussion [2], Eben Moglen, General Counsel for the
 Free Software Foundation, noted that he always believed that GPLv2 should be
 interpreted in the way GPLv3 now makes explicit. Quoting [3]:

   Eben made it very clear indeed that he does not regard the
   issues that are being raised over Nexenta to be any
   kind of a problem even under GPL v2...

That's his choice to interpret the GPLv2 that way, although given the quite
elaborate wording used in the GPL for this point I consider this an attempt
at a retcon.  Either way, his interpretation of the GPL may be binding on
the FSF, but it's not binding on other copyright holders who have licensed
their work under the GPL; some of us definitely think the restriction on
distributing GPL binaries together with a GPL-incompatible OS is a feature.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.debian.org/


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Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-06 Thread Russ Allbery
Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 04:24:10PM -0700, Alex Ross wrote:

 GPLv3 is available at [1]. The draft removes ambiguities of GPLv2, and
 in particular, clarifies the old GPLv2 clause 3: You may copy and
 distribute the Program ... During the discussion [2], Eben Moglen,
 General Counsel for the Free Software Foundation, noted that he always
 believed that GPLv2 should be interpreted in the way GPLv3 now makes
 explicit. Quoting [3]:

  Eben made it very clear indeed that he does not regard the
  issues that are being raised over Nexenta to be any
  kind of a problem even under GPL v2...

 That's his choice to interpret the GPLv2 that way, although given the
 quite elaborate wording used in the GPL for this point I consider this
 an attempt at a retcon.  Either way, his interpretation of the GPL may
 be binding on the FSF, but it's not binding on other copyright holders
 who have licensed their work under the GPL; some of us definitely think
 the restriction on distributing GPL binaries together with a
 GPL-incompatible OS is a feature.

It is interesting to note, though, that the GPLv3 has apparently dropped
this restriction.  That will mean that software with or later version
clauses potentially won't have this issue once GPLv3 is formally released,
although I haven't analyzed it in detail.

dpkg is one of the packages with an or later version clause.

-- 
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dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-05 Thread Erast Benson
Hi Guys,

Back in November 2005 Michael Schultheiss performed initial analysis of
dpkg patches at [1]. Our dpkg implementation has changed a bit since
than.

Attached is the first in the series of dpkg patches which adds
solaris-i386 architecture support used by NexentaOS.

We would like to start submitting patchsets for core packages like dpkg,
apt, debhelper, coreutils, gcc, xorg, and many others. Does it make
sense?

[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2005/11/msg00017.html

Thanks,
Nexenta Team
Index: scripts/dpkg-architecture.pl
===
--- scripts/dpkg-architecture.pl	(.../pool/current)	(revision 19911)
+++ scripts/dpkg-architecture.pl	(.../trunk)	(revision 19911)
@@ -81,7 +81,7 @@
 sub split_debian {
 local ($_) = @_;
 
-if (/^([^-]*)-(.*)/) {
+if (/^([^-][a-zA-Z_]+)[\.\d]*-(.*)/) {
 	return ($1, $2);
 } else {
 	return (linux, $_);
@@ -151,6 +151,7 @@
 # Set default values:
 
 chomp ($deb_build_arch = `dpkg --print-architecture`);
+($deb_os, $deb_cpu) = split_debian($deb_host_arch);
 syserr(dpkg --print-architecture failed) if $?8;
 $deb_build_gnu_type = debian_to_gnu($deb_build_arch);
 
@@ -258,6 +259,14 @@
 	  DEB_HOST_ARCH DEB_HOST_ARCH_OS DEB_HOST_ARCH_CPU
 	  DEB_HOST_GNU_CPU DEB_HOST_GNU_SYSTEM DEB_HOST_GNU_TYPE);
 
+# nexenta fixups...
+if ($deb_os == solaris) {
+	$deb_build_gnu_system = solaris;
+	$deb_host_gnu_system = solaris;
+	$deb_build_gnu_type =~ s/i486/i386/;
+	$deb_host_gnu_type =~ s/i486/i386/;
+}
+
 $env{'DEB_BUILD_ARCH'}=$deb_build_arch;
 $env{'DEB_BUILD_ARCH_OS'}=$deb_build_arch_os;
 $env{'DEB_BUILD_ARCH_CPU'}=$deb_build_arch_cpu;
Index: ostable
===
--- ostable	(.../pool/current)	(revision 19911)
+++ ostable	(.../trunk)	(revision 19911)
@@ -21,3 +21,4 @@
 netbsd		netbsd		netbsd[^-]*
 openbsd		openbsd		openbsd[^-]*
 hurd		gnu		gnu[^-]*
+solaris pc-solaris2.11  solaris.*


Re: dpkg support for solaris-i386 architecture

2006-04-05 Thread Christoph Berg
Re: Erast Benson 2006-04-06 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Attached is the first in the series of dpkg patches which adds
 solaris-i386 architecture support used by NexentaOS.
 
 We would like to start submitting patchsets for core packages like dpkg,
 apt, debhelper, coreutils, gcc, xorg, and many others. Does it make
 sense?

This sounds promising, but the correct place to send them is the BTS,
where they don't get lost.

Christoph
-- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.df7cb.de/


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