Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
On 17 Sep 2002, Matt Reynolds wrote: I'm willing to help with money, feed, CPU power, but I can't find a situation where my sharing these things will actually make a difference. This seems to be communication again. I *know* these resources can be applied somewhere, but finding those places are difficult. If I could pay calc 20 bucks, and find 50 other people to do so to get this package out, I would. I might even be able to get my company to cough up some money, but I don't know where to start, or if this is even the appropriate solution. (I know KDE's 3.x release is a GCC issue, just illustrating the point). It'd be nice if there'd be some street performer, collabnet, sourceXchange or similar effort to advance, sponsor Debian's progress. All of this is alot to ask of volunteers, and I understand that. If I need to build tools to help them provide this information, I'll work on that. IMHO it'd be nice to have a link to the a) upstream homepage and b) to the package maintainer's homepage straight from : http://packages.debian.org/put_here_the_name_of_some_package *t -- --- Tomas Pospisek SourcePole - Linux Open Source Solutions http://sourcepole.ch Elestastrasse 18, 7310 Bad Ragaz, Switzerland Tel: +41 (81) 330 77 11 ---
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
On Fri, 2002-09-13 at 15:55, David Pashley wrote: KDE 3.0.3 is packaged and apart from a KDE 3.0.4 release, the KDE 3.0.x branch is pretty much finished packaging wise. calc and others are now working on KDE 3.1 packaging. KDE 3.x will be in sid once the GCC transition plan has been worked out and started. This is kind of out of our hands. I understand that the GCC transition is not under your control, and please understand that my criticism applies to the entire process, not just the KDE packaging. I would love to see more information concerning the GCC process as well. I have read the technical material concerning the transition, but a laymens, 2 foot view, with approximate dates and places to go find new information to track the process, would be wonderful. However, it would still be very useful to know how the KDE transition will be handled. For example, I would be more than happy to add the 3.0.x packages to the set we use here at work and upgrade, if I could be sure that the transition from non-sid to sid would be smooth and relatively trouble free. As it stands, the only assurance I have of a relatively trouble free upgrade comes from the fact that packages get accepted into the sid tree. Being in the main tree means that Debian people put more effort into making sure things work. I am probably misunderstanding how this process works. My current understanding tells me that packages outside of the blessed (main, contrib, etc etc) sources are pretty much use at your own risk, and as such I'm unwilling to deploy them to the people I have to support (to be fair, I'm unwilling to suggest it to the wonderful support person who does that job). Not to be a pedant, but if there was information put forth and assurances made about package quality, ability to upgrade, and effort put forth to make sure the experimental packages alligned with the final official packages, I would move today. I hope I'm explaining this properly, please let me know if I'm not making sense. Side note : After typing all this up, and reading other emails from people, it would seem that there are quite a few non-developer/non-admin types that use Debian. Debian, as a whole, is easy to maintain and use, but the problems come in when things fail and the non-developers don't know where to go or what to do. As one of these people, I appreciate the efforts of everyone involved to help me get up to speed and informed, and I have learned quite a bit from the people surrounding Debian. In many cases, I'm willing to trust Debian to take care of me, but I would like to be able to make informed decisions about package and system choice (Should I upgrade to package X? Does it have current support? Is the package maintainer active and responsive?), and to do that I need to know what's going on with the developers and packagers behind the scenes. I understand that this is, mainly, my responsibility to find these people and engage them, but I would say that Debian's (maybe unstated) goal of being widely used would be greatly helped by visibility throughout the process (I'll need to build a list of questions that I'm asked frequently about Debian, as it may help define what people want to see in terms of visibility). I'm willing to help out building this, if I can be of help. Thanks, Matt signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
On Tue, 2002-09-17 at 15:26, Matt Reynolds wrote: On Fri, 2002-09-13 at 15:55, David Pashley wrote: KDE 3.0.3 is packaged and apart from a KDE 3.0.4 release, the KDE 3.0.x branch is pretty much finished packaging wise. calc and others are now working on KDE 3.1 packaging. KDE 3.x will be in sid once the GCC transition plan has been worked out and started. This is kind of out of our hands. I understand that the GCC transition is not under your control, and please understand that my criticism applies to the entire process, not just the KDE packaging. I would love to see more information concerning the GCC process as well. I have read the technical material concerning the transition, but a laymens, 2 foot view, with approximate dates and places to go find new information to track the process, would be wonderful. AFAIK there's no such place, currently. I read debian-gcc and debian-glibc because I'm mildly interested (in a i-use-only-x86-for-now- but-it's-cool-to-have-an-OS-that-runs-on-11-arches way), and from what I can see these are the issues right now: !!! everything IIRC, I'm not involved personally !!! - gcc 3.2 and glibc 2.3 Gang Together - gcc code generator is still not 100% stable on all platforms (ARM is one of the problems, binutils update might be required) - glibc still needs tweakings, here HPPA is one of the problems. for both, m68k is problematic if only because cross-building is not supported for debian pkgs, and the native builds takes AGES. - perl 5.8 creates some problems with the build system now and then. No idea on the timeline, but the work Will Be Done (tm). While bundling glibc and gcc is a good thing imho, it slows down the gcc release which would probably be ready earlier if done with the current glibc. (someone involved correct me please if I got any facts wrong here). cheers -- vbi -- secure email with gpg http://fortytwo.ch/gpg NOTICE: subkey signature! request key 92082481 from keyserver.kjsl.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Hi Matt, On 17 Sep 2002, Matt Reynolds wrote: Not to be a pedant, but if there was information put forth and assurances made about package quality, ability to upgrade, and effort put forth to make sure the experimental packages alligned with the final official packages, I would move today. The GPL says: 11. BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. I think that's the main problem here. Debian is not a professional entity... As one of these people, I appreciate the efforts of everyone involved to help me get up to speed and informed, and I have learned quite a bit from the people surrounding Debian. In many cases, I'm willing to trust Debian to take care of me, but I would like to be able to make informed decisions about package and system choice (Should I upgrade to package X? Does it have current support? Is the package maintainer active and responsive?), and to do that I need to know what's going on with the developers and packagers behind the scenes. .. most people working on Debian do it on their own time, for fun or sometimes because there's a company that needs some specific stuff and sponsors people to do it. So allthough what you are asking for is valuable and a good idea, the best you can do is either: * hope * kindly ask for it and hope * pay someone to take care about your concerns * dive yourself into the matter and find out for yourself * get a commercialy supported version of Debian that can guarantee you what you are asking for If you follow the list you'll see that many people are happy with the currently provided KDE3 packages [1] and you can made an estimate from there. And if you want to deploy KDE3 throughout your company, then your best bet is to make one or more test-installations or -upgrades use the upgraded system for a while, and after you've made sure things work out for you as they should, make the next step and upgrade the rest - just like you probably would with Windows or whatever, where you won't get any guarantee either, and only can be fairly sure that things should more or less work. *t [1] the 3.0.3 packages work very well for me, the upgrade went smoothly, you should reserve yourself a few hours though to sort out all the dependencies -- --- Tomas Pospisek SourcePole - Linux Open Source Solutions http://sourcepole.ch Elestastrasse 18, 7310 Bad Ragaz, Switzerland Tel: +41 (81) 330 77 11 ---
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
On Tue, 2002-09-17 at 09:04, Tomas Pospisek's Mailing Lists wrote: The GPL says: 11. BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. I think that's the main problem here. Debian is not a professional entity... Agreed. However, I'm not looking for *legal* liability. I'm looking for something I personally can vouch for. I use Debian at home, here on my laptop, and at work. I personally recommend it to friends that wish to learn about Linux in general, and converts from other distributions. I really do believe in the success of Debian, especially as a non-corporate entity. But really, that's neither here nor there. I'm just looking, as a programmer myself, to provide other programmers, system administrators, and computer people with help on a system designed to build good things. So not to rant too long, but I'm not looking for legal or other recourse. I want to talk to people and be able to decide what to do. I want to deal with people, and know what they're doing. I'm not looking to blame anyone :) .. most people working on Debian do it on their own time, for fun or sometimes because there's a company that needs some specific stuff and sponsors people to do it. So allthough what you are asking for is valuable and a good idea, the best you can do is either: * hope * kindly ask for it and hope * pay someone to take care about your concerns * dive yourself into the matter and find out for yourself * get a commercialy supported version of Debian that can guarantee you what you are asking for Again, agreed. And I have been trying to devise a solution to some of my problems. Currently, I do 1 2, I'm trying to do 4 more, and I'm completely unaware of 5. As to 3, I've been trying to work out an escrow system to motivate people to get package done more quickly. Overall, this still doesn't address the major problem, which is communication inside of Debian proper. I'm much more willing to do all of the steps above if I know the people inside are doing good work, and I can decide to apply myself to help them. One of the reasons I'm with Debian is that I believe the people involved generally want to create a quality solution that meets it's users needs. To make this better, I'm trying to figure out better communication methods so people don't duplicate effort, become frustrated, etc. Really, these problems are endemic in groups, be they distributed, corporate, or otherwise. I don't expect perfection, or anything close, but I'd still like to try and get there. If you follow the list you'll see that many people are happy with the currently provided KDE3 packages [1] and you can made an estimate from there. I've noticed a great deal of happines from individual users, mainly people who are willing to invest the time and are willing to risk breaking their system. I have noticed some discontent amongst the people who just want to follow the main tree and get the things they're looking for. I am one of these people. Maybe to my detriment, I don't want to have to put a lot of effort into getting new packages and maintaining them. This is the major selling point of Debian for me. I really like the way, for the most part, Debian just works. When it doesn't, in general, I can figure out what I need to to make it work. What I'm in search of here is extra communication so that I can help out with the project, not just the end result. I'm willing to help with money, feed, CPU power, but I can't find a situation where my sharing these things will actually make a difference. This seems to be communication again. I *know* these resources can be applied somewhere, but finding those places are difficult. If I could pay calc 20 bucks, and find 50 other people to do so to get this package out, I would. I might even be able to get my company to cough up some money, but I don't know where to start, or if this is even the appropriate solution. (I know KDE's 3.x release is a GCC issue, just illustrating the point). And if you want to deploy KDE3 throughout your company, then your best bet is to make one or more test-installations or -upgrades use the upgraded system for a while, and after you've made sure things work out for you as they should, make the next step and upgrade the rest - just like you probably would with Windows or whatever, where you won't get any guarantee either, and only can be fairly sure that things should more or less work. Which we've done already. What we're worried about is the upgrade path. What does the future hold for these packages? I'm not looking for predicition or promises, I'm looking for intent. (I would take Chris Cheney's word over MS's *any day*.) Will I be able to simply change the sources.list entry and be able to use the main distro source, with no other modifications? Is this the goal? What *are* the goals for this part of the project?
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Hi there Am Dienstag, 17. September 2002 18:32 schrieb Matt Reynolds: Maybe to my detriment, I don't want to have to put a lot of effort into getting new packages and maintaining them. This is the major selling point of Debian for me. I really like the way, for the most part, Debian just works. When it doesn't, in general, I can figure out what I need to to make it work. What I'm in search of here is extra communication so that I can help out with the project, not just the end result. On way to make it easier to use non maintained packages (like the newest kde) could be a meta apt source. If that you only need to put the (one) meta apt source in your list to use all unofficial kde or other package sources. Thats only a idea but it may work.
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Hear, hear. I'm sad to say that if this (and GNOME 2.x) doesn't happen soon, I'll have to switch to another distro, despite how much I appreciate Debian. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spoke Thusly: Is there any light in the tunnel for kde3 being uploaded in Sid some day, some year or so? I might be sounding a bit negative but haven't seen any progress or some sort of status from the maintaineres for some while now.. Is it still the transition to gcc 3.X that slows debians progress to be a useful desktop system? Cheers /Robert -- James Lindenschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] random head noise or ...? http://jwl.blogspot.com
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Sorry for the empty mess. Geezzz I know. But as you state yourself it's not in SID, it for sure works with SID but it's official packages, even though that the packages you are refering to are mostly created by the package maintenars for kde in debian. What is holding back kde3 from being uploaded in SED then? I don't want to go on a apt-get find the right apt-get lines for today crusade. I don't want to go find packages in some rpm-findish way. I whant them in my standard apt-get lines, like the way all other packages are maintained. . Geez you can get the packages easily for sid. Even kde has the packages hosted and did from the moment kde 3.0.3 came out and kde 3.0.1-3.0.2 has been available for a while now and the locations have been publicized in a number of locations. Just add the apt lines and install it. I have been running kde 3.0.x in debian sid for a while now without any problems.
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [020913 14:13]: I don't want to go on a apt-get find the right apt-get lines for today crusade. I don't want to go find packages in some rpm-findish way. I whant them in my standard apt-get lines, like the way all other packages are maintained. . i would say the kid has a point there. - the kde3 packages work better then the old ones which were/are in unstable - kde is an improtant part (for me alt last) of a distro - the bug tracking system is there to help the maintainer, not to make him feel threatend by open bugs, so let us use it for kde3, too! - big upcoming trasitions (menu system, c++) need to be done if the packages are in debian or not - this is what unstable is there for (and again: these packages are less unstable then the ones in stable. (c: )
RE: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
gnome 1.4 and 2.2 do me just fine, there wasn't a huge lot of extras from what i've seen in kde 3 over kde 2.2. And last time i checked out (admittedly a month ago or so) gnome 2 was extremely unstable. I can't justify changing o/s just cos of the version of kde/gnome that it's running. What matters is the distribution as a whole package. I don't think i could ever go back to rh/suse/mandrake again :-) I like Debian, I like the fact that other users (contrary to my very first post - we'll ignore that) are extremely helpful. And the bonus is i'm having to work, to get things working, which means i learn more. Dave -Original Message- From: James Lindenschmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 13 September 2002 10:02 PM To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org; David Pastern Subject: Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen? Hear, hear. I'm sad to say that if this (and GNOME 2.x) doesn't happen soon, I'll have to switch to another distro, despite how much I appreciate Debian. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spoke Thusly: Is there any light in the tunnel for kde3 being uploaded in Sid some day, some year or so? I might be sounding a bit negative but haven't seen any progress or some sort of status from the maintaineres for some while now.. Is it still the transition to gcc 3.X that slows debians progress to be a useful desktop system? Cheers /Robert -- James Lindenschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] random head noise or ...? http://jwl.blogspot.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Though I wouldn't know from experience, by most accounts I've heard KDE 3.x has several advantages over KDE 2.x, speed and stability being two. Of course, the improved eye candy doesn't hurt either (so much for speed! LOL). You raise some good points. I am quite productive in KDE 2.2.2, but many of the applications I am using have moved to KDE 3.x, and as such I don't get bug fixes and/or new features since KDE 3 isn't yet in sid. I am definitely a non-geek end-user type, with a strong ethical commitment to Free software, which is why I turned to Debian in the first place. I would love to run LibraNet, but they seem to want to not have users, since they don't allow downloads of their latest versions. This seems contrary to the spirit of the GPL to me (though it is apparently within the 'letter of the law') :-( I agree that I don't relish going back to RedHat, but it looks to me that RH8 may have what I need as an end-user type. But I would certainly miss apt-get. Jim David Pastern Spoke Thusly: gnome 1.4 and 2.2 do me just fine, there wasn't a huge lot of extras from what i've seen in kde 3 over kde 2.2. And last time i checked out (admittedly a month ago or so) gnome 2 was extremely unstable. I can't justify changing o/s just cos of the version of kde/gnome that it's running. What matters is the distribution as a whole package. I don't think i could ever go back to rh/suse/mandrake again :-) I like Debian, I like the fact that other users (contrary to my very first post - we'll ignore that) are extremely helpful. And the bonus is i'm having to work, to get things working, which means i learn more. Dave -Original Message- From: James Lindenschmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, 13 September 2002 10:02 PM To: debian-kde@lists.debian.org; David Pastern Subject: Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen? Hear, hear. I'm sad to say that if this (and GNOME 2.x) doesn't happen soon, I'll have to switch to another distro, despite how much I appreciate Debian. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Spoke Thusly: Is there any light in the tunnel for kde3 being uploaded in Sid some day, some year or so? I might be sounding a bit negative but haven't seen any progress or some sort of status from the maintaineres for some while now.. Is it still the transition to gcc 3.X that slows debians progress to be a useful desktop system? Cheers /Robert -- James Lindenschmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] random head noise or ...? http://jwl.blogspot.com
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 02:32:45PM +0100, Paul Cupis wrote: I notice that people have stopped asking when X4.2 will be in sid, and when openoffice.org will be in sid... [and no, I'm not asking now, either] FYI: Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:33:11 -0400 From: Debian Installer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: openoffice.org_1.0.1-5_i386.changes is NEW (new) openoffice.org-bin_1.0.1-5_i386.deb optional contrib/editors ... We really did upload it already (compiled against gcc3.2 in unstable), it is stuck waiting for approval... Chris pgp16LtDIB72B.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Paul Cupis [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Friday 13 September 2002 12:31, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is there any light in the tunnel for kde3 being uploaded in Sid some day, some year or so? I might be sounding a bit negative but haven't seen any progress or some sort of status from the maintaineres for some while now.. Is it still the transition to gcc 3.X that slows debians progress to be a useful desktop system? kde3 will go into sid when the gcc3.2 transiton is over/complete. KDE is very much a C++-based system and there is little point uploading it using gcc3.1 ^^^ 2.95 and then reuploading/compiling it in X days/weeks when the gcc3.2 transition happens. And it cannot be uploaded now as gcc3.2 becuase the ftp-masters will not allow gcc3.2 libraries in until the DD's have worked out how to best deal with gcc3.2. I think it is just a matter of being patient, or helping the developers decide how the gcc3.2 transition is going to happen, so that it can happen and kde3 can go in. But isn't the point of the gcc transition to decide how to cleanly migrate C++ stuff like KDE to the new ABI? If KDE3 were uploaded, it would just end up transitioning just like every other C++ library, like Qt. -- People said I was dumb, but I proved them!
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 13 September 2002 09:08 am, James Lindenschmidt wrote: Though I wouldn't know from experience, by most accounts I've heard KDE 3.x has several advantages over KDE 2.x, speed and stability being two. Of course, the improved eye candy doesn't hurt either (so much for speed! LOL). I am running KDE 3.1 on debian sid, and it is nice and stable, and the speed is good, but I honestly don't believe that the desktop environment is faster as a whole - individual applications, like Konqueror's HTML rendering speed, yes, - but the overall 'snappiness' and memory usage is (AFAICT) about the same as 2.2. You raise some good points. I am quite productive in KDE 2.2.2, but many of the applications I am using have moved to KDE 3.x, and as such I don't get bug fixes and/or new features since KDE 3 isn't yet in sid. Yup. This is one of the reasons I moved up also. I am definitely a non-geek end-user type, with a strong ethical commitment to Free software, which is why I turned to Debian in the first place. I would love to run LibraNet, but they seem to want to not have users, since they don't allow downloads of their latest versions. This seems contrary to the spirit of the GPL to me (though it is apparently within the 'letter of the law') :-( The spirit of the GPL is not to give away software for free. That's free as in free beer. The spirit of the GPL is that the source is always included, and you can do what you like with your own software. That's free as in freedom. I agree that I don't relish going back to RedHat, but it looks to me that RH8 may have what I need as an end-user type. But I would certainly miss apt-get. IMHO, RedHat is not more bleeding-edge than Debian. They're just crazy enough to release software that still has major bugs - that the upstream (the folks who work on individual projects like Gnome, KDE, E, gcc, etc.) are issuing warnings about. I'd rather have a stable OS that works as it should than one that looks really cool if and when it runs. That's why most ex-windoze linux users converted to using Linux, right? For the stability. IMNSHO, the RedHat Package Manager is far less powerful and flexible than Debian's dpkg. Forcing users to go searching for RPM's that may or may not have that dependency you need to compile/run an important program is idiocy. The situation is worsened because of all the RPM's that are built by upstream authors who may or may not adhere to the FSH and the LSB. Heck, Suse is different enough from RedHat to cause wierd problems with some distributor-inspecific RPMs. My point is that Debian has FAR more pro's than con's. It will install and run on more architectures than many distributions, and if you stick with the potato or woody distribution, you are almost guaranteed that your software will run flawlessly. Sure, the version may be 2.2 instead of 3.1, but that will be ameliorated when gcc-3.2 enters unstable/sid. Don't get discouraged - and if you need more 'bleeding edge' unstable/sid, take a look at http://www.golum.org/aptgetlinks.shtml. That is my local LUG homepage, where we have published some of the more popular 'unofficial' apt-getables. Just add the lines indicated to your /etc/apt/sources.list and dist-upgrade. When the unofficial packages enter sid, just remove the line. It doesn't get much easier than that. Nathan -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9ghkm4e9YdOpQYMsRAuauAJsFjkZFcV5J0HBZpePXNW7c5y2DKgCfT5/4 NjhEBxPLSek+/HfVPFPGIJU= =t1JF -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
On Friday 13 September 2002 18:58, Nathan Waddell wrote: IMNSHO, the RedHat Package Manager is far less powerful and flexible than Debian's dpkg. Forcing users to go searching for RPM's that may or may not have that dependency you need to compile/run an important program is idiocy. IMELHO (In My Even Less Humble Opinion) this has nothing to do with dpkg vs. rpm but rather with apt vs. non-apt. Redhat doesn't support Apt (because they sell a service that does the same?). Debian does (duh). There is apt for rpm too, see Connectiva (and it also works with Mandrake afaik). -- Frank Van Damme homepage: www.student.kuleuven.ac.be/~m9917684 jabber (=IM): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 13 September 2002 15:20, Chris Halls wrote: On Fri, Sep 13, 2002 at 02:32:45PM +0100, Paul Cupis wrote: I notice that people have stopped asking when X4.2 will be in sid, and when openoffice.org will be in sid... [and no, I'm not asking now, either] FYI: Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 06:33:11 -0400 From: Debian Installer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: openoffice.org_1.0.1-5_i386.changes is NEW (new) openoffice.org-bin_1.0.1-5_i386.deb optional contrib/editors ... We really did upload it already (compiled against gcc3.2 in unstable), it is stuck waiting for approval... Hi Chris, Yeah, I know it was updated, and I know about the libstlport/gcc3.2/openoffice.org thing et cetera, and I know it is ready (in and of itself) to go into Debian - I am very happy with the current packages (I've been running them since Peter's first package and subscribe to debian-openoffice). I was just interested by the fact that people seemed have learned to wait for X4.2 and openoffice.org to get into sid, but still keep asking about kde3. Not that I have any problem with people asking for updates, either. P.S.: thanks for all the work you and the others have put into the openoffice.org debs, Chris. Paul Cupis - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9giOHIzuKV+SHX/kRAibKAJwOBm0BPfbyattevHA7rmPAX9tzVACfdywA /VtJa5fxEk8EyELJ98rLNgc= =QjIH -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 13 September 2002 15:58, Matt Reynolds wrote: On Fri, 2002-09-13 at 08:32, Paul Cupis wrote: kde3 will go into sid when the gcc3.2 transiton is over/complete. KDE is very much a C++-based system and there is little point uploading it using gcc3.1 and then reuploading/compiling it in X days/weeks when the gcc3.2 transition happens. And it cannot be uploaded now as gcc3.2 becuase the ftp-masters will not allow gcc3.2 libraries in until the DD's have worked out how to best deal with gcc3.2. I think it is just a matter of being patient, or helping the developers decide how the gcc3.2 transition is going to happen, so that it can happen and kde3 can go in. I notice that people have stopped asking when X4.2 will be in sid, and when openoffice.org will be in sid... [and no, I'm not asking now, either] One of the reasons I haven't complained or queried about X4.2 is that Branden is very good about replying to list complaints, releasing, and publicizing his releases. Visibility and transparency in the packaging process seems to keep the wolves at bay. While I'm happier with 4.2's packaging, I would still *love* to see dates associated with the actions taken on list(s). Not a schedule, but just a here's what we've done so far timeline. This keeps everyone on the same page, and could even help remove duplicated effort, IMNSHO. You do, of course have a good point and I thank you for your feedback. There is already an (under-publicised) kde faq, at http://www.davidpashley.com/debian-kde though I'm not certain from memory that it has this type of information. It is obvious now that it should, and I will work with the maintainer and the debian-kde folk to get that information into the faq. I will probably also see about getting the faq a bit more publicity than the occasional mention here and the references to it on #debian-kde/#debian. Thank you, Paul Cupis - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9gir3IzuKV+SHX/kRAuRaAJ9wQWD44J9GeQEz/x14HzDaXr3j4gCfaUJG 8ABK7JdWNgIqMHy0SY9OmTk= =VEu5 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Brian Nelson said, and I quote: But isn't the point of the gcc transition to decide how to cleanly migrate C++ stuff like KDE to the new ABI? If KDE3 were uploaded, it would just end up transitioning just like every other C++ library, like Qt. If I understand the current draft transistion plan, every C++ package will need a c added to the package name a la the libc5 - libc6 transition. This can be dropped when the sonames is updated AIUI, most(all?) of the KDE libs have had their sonames bumped so we do not need to do this if we put KDE 3 in to a post transition sid, but we will have to wait until KDE4 before we can drop the c from the package names if we put it in a pre-transition sid. -- David Pashley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione. pgpNP5xVThuwc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Frank Van Damme said, and I quote: On Friday 13 September 2002 18:58, Nathan Waddell wrote: IMNSHO, the RedHat Package Manager is far less powerful and flexible than Debian's dpkg. Forcing users to go searching for RPM's that may or may not have that dependency you need to compile/run an important program is idiocy. IMELHO (In My Even Less Humble Opinion) this has nothing to do with dpkg vs. rpm but rather with apt vs. non-apt. Redhat doesn't support Apt (because they sell a service that does the same?). Debian does (duh). There is apt for rpm too, see Connectiva (and it also works with Mandrake afaik). I think you too are mistaken. What makes Debian better than most distributions is policy (and lintian/linda) and the fact that most software has already been packaged so you don;t need to search for packages which may or may not work with your version of linux. Policy has the nice effect of making sure that debian packages work well together. The other nice advantage is that debian packages don't have to try and work on 50 different distributions. -- David Pashley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione. pgplgxpDbKlt5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
Paul Cupis said, and I quote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 13 September 2002 15:58, Matt Reynolds wrote: On Fri, 2002-09-13 at 08:32, Paul Cupis wrote: kde3 will go into sid when the gcc3.2 transiton is over/complete. KDE is very much a C++-based system and there is little point uploading it using gcc3.1 and then reuploading/compiling it in X days/weeks when the gcc3.2 transition happens. And it cannot be uploaded now as gcc3.2 becuase the ftp-masters will not allow gcc3.2 libraries in until the DD's have worked out how to best deal with gcc3.2. I think it is just a matter of being patient, or helping the developers decide how the gcc3.2 transition is going to happen, so that it can happen and kde3 can go in. I notice that people have stopped asking when X4.2 will be in sid, and when openoffice.org will be in sid... [and no, I'm not asking now, either] One of the reasons I haven't complained or queried about X4.2 is that Branden is very good about replying to list complaints, releasing, and publicizing his releases. Visibility and transparency in the packaging process seems to keep the wolves at bay. While I'm happier with 4.2's packaging, I would still *love* to see dates associated with the actions taken on list(s). Not a schedule, but just a here's what we've done so far timeline. This keeps everyone on the same page, and could even help remove duplicated effort, IMNSHO. KDE 3.0.3 is packaged and apart from a KDE 3.0.4 release, the KDE 3.0.x branch is pretty much finished packaging wise. calc and others are now working on KDE 3.1 packaging. KDE 3.x will be in sid once the GCC transition plan has been worked out and started. This is kind of out of our hands. You do, of course have a good point and I thank you for your feedback. There is already an (under-publicised) kde faq, at http://www.davidpashley.com/debian-kde though I'm not certain from memory that it has this type of information. It is obvious now that it should, and I will work with the maintainer and the debian-kde folk to get that information into the faq. I will probably also see about getting the faq a bit more publicity than the occasional mention here and the references to it on #debian-kde/#debian. Thank you, Paul Cupis - -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE9gir3IzuKV+SHX/kRAuRaAJ9wQWD44J9GeQEz/x14HzDaXr3j4gCfaUJG 8ABK7JdWNgIqMHy0SY9OmTk= =VEu5 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- David Pashley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione. pgpXgdzPddMUe.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
fredagen den 13 september 2002 22.33 skrev David Pashley: AIUI, most(all?) of the KDE libs have had their sonames bumped so we do not need to do this if we put KDE 3 in to a post transition sid, but we will have to wait until KDE4 before we can drop the c from the package names if we put it in a pre-transition sid. This sounds like trouble waiting to happen. -- Karolina
Re: kde 3.* in sid will it ever happen?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 13 September 2002 10:03 am, Frank Van Damme wrote: On Friday 13 September 2002 18:58, Nathan Waddell wrote: IMNSHO, the RedHat Package Manager is far less powerful and flexible than Debian's dpkg. Forcing users to go searching for RPM's that may or may not have that dependency you need to compile/run an important program is idiocy. IMELHO (In My Even Less Humble Opinion) this has nothing to do with dpkg vs. rpm but rather with apt vs. non-apt. Redhat doesn't support Apt (because they sell a service that does the same?). Debian does (duh). There is apt for rpm too, see Connectiva (and it also works with Mandrake afaik). Actually, Red Hat does support apt. I used it. Nothing like seeing apt getting blahblahxx.RPM :) - -- Jaye Inabnit\ARS ke6sls\/A GNU-Debian linux user\/ http://www.qsl.net/ke6sls If it's stupid, but works, it ain't stupid. I SHOUT JUST FOR FUN. Free software, in a free world, for a free spirit. Please Support freedom! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE9gnYpZHBxKsta6kMRAjGTAKCR5KyQ1Jj1QP/gNeCKMQN+FWjjWACeI1sn 0sNm9VZeE8554HORQt2MfHA= =ssa3 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
