Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 11:45:31PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 11:03:50AM -0600, Wesley J. Landaker wrote: On Sunday 27 May 2007 10:52:49 Mohammed Adnène Trojette wrote: Hi Sven, are you part of an organisation called GNAA? Regardless of how you[1] feel about Sven, can you please stop trolling him? Damn, how fool was I. I was completely under the impression that *he* was the one trolling our lists for months. Makes me think, he can't be alone to generate all that flood, or he uses scripting. Maybe the latter given the very high redundancy of the content, wording and annoyance. dadadodo ? polygen ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Andreas Barth wrote: On Sun, 27 May 2007, Sven Luther wrote: 17:55:11 svenl waldi: do you know who removed me from the kernel alioth team ? 17:57:44 waldi nope No answer yet, and : 18:34:59 sgran I am not going to answer questions about who it was, that will need to be argued about on a different IRC channel 18:49:33 sgran I have already /msg'ed the person responsible, and told them to let you know it was them 18:49:47 sgran but they say they don't remember doing it Both logs are related. Waldi removed you from the kernel team at the beginning of the month (9th May) together with two other persons: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm rather shocked that waldi removed people from commit access without telling them - and even worse, without being able to remember it about 14 days later. I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. The logs show that he knew about it yeasterday afternoon, and the access has not yet been re-established. Furthermore, there are other folk in the kernel team who have been less active than me, and are still there. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. Bastian -- Too much of anything, even love, isn't necessarily a good thing. -- Kirk, The Trouble with Tribbles, stardate 4525.6 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Bastian Blank wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. So apparently it was an accident. Thus, mind adding svenl back to correct the mistake? Regards, Joey -- It's practically impossible to look at a penguin and feel angry. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
* Bastian Blank ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 11:18]: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. In that case, why isn't svenl added back by you if we know now that you removed him? It really seems to me you shouldn't have admin privileges on the kernel svn if you cannot properly handle them. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:17:39AM +0200, Bastian Blank wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. Fine, so can you reactivate my access ? Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
* Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 12:14]: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:17:39AM +0200, Bastian Blank wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. Fine, so can you reactivate my access ? It seems that waldi doesn't want to do it, and also not to give any statement that he wanted to kick you out. I consider this a very bad behaviour, at least. And not acceptable. We had just an IRC-discussion (in German): 12:15 Ganneff waldi: wie siehts aus mit svenl wieder zum alioth kernel zuzufügen nachdem er da wohl ungeplant flog? 12:15 waldi Ganneff: es hat eigentlich keiner lust sich mit ihm abzugeben. ein teil ignoriert ihn komplett 12:15 aba waldi: *du* hast ihn entfernt. Dann bist Du auch fürs aufräumen zuständig. 12:16 Ganneff waldi: dann schreib ihm entweder sowas als entscheidung vom kernel team wenns die gibt oder füg ihn wieder zu. aber ignorieren ist nix gut. 12:16 aba waldi: entweder sagst du offiziell, das du ihn draußen haben willst. Oder du fügst ihn wieder hinzu. 12:17 Ganneff waldi: und es heisst svn zufügen, das muss nit unbedingt wieder admin sein. solang er dran arbeiten kann - oder alternativ halt weiss dass es nix wird weil $grund. 12:21 Ganneff waldi: so? 12:27 Ganneff waldi: im moment siehts eher so aus dass du deinen access zu kernel (zumindest admin) verlieren solltest, nicht sven. (and no answer from waldi up to now) As you can see, there is no need for you to escalate it - other people will take care of that. :) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
* Andreas Barth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 12:28]: It seems that waldi doesn't want to do it, and also not to give any statement that he wanted to kick you out. I consider this a very bad behaviour, at least. And not acceptable. After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 12:41:59PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Andreas Barth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 12:28]: It seems that waldi doesn't want to do it, and also not to give any statement that he wanted to kick you out. I consider this a very bad behaviour, at least. And not acceptable. After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. It is not acceptable that debian deals in mafioso politics, and the DAMs, by knowingly hiding most of the evidence, have actively participated in it. Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Sven Luther wrote: After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. Oh come on Sven! This thread was about the accidential removal of your kernel team commit access. It has been restored since them. The problem is fixed. Tell you what, if you continue trolling and ranting here, sooner or later your commit access will be removed *on purpose* with no way for you to get it back. This is not a threat but a warning. We know that you're not happy with the situation, but continueing to bring it up will not solve it either. Please don't reply and work on important things instead. Regards, Joey -- It's practically impossible to look at a penguin and feel angry. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
* Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 13:23]: [...] Sven, this whole thread is about that your commit access to the kernel svn repro was revoked without anyone telling you. What then happened is that the alioth admins published that waldi revoked the access, waldi refused to comment to it, and was finally beaten by Ganneff and me to reenable your access. So, you see, two people jumped up to help you to get your access back, and were successful. I can understand that you are annoyed/angry at waldi now, but please consider that some people in Debian did efforts to help you to have your access restored. (And BTW, I still think that waldi needs to send a public apology for removing your access - as far as I can see it, it really seems to me waldi shouldn't have admin access because his behaviour is not how any admin should behave. But please stop muddling everything together. Debian as a project is definitly not responsible for waldis bad behaviour - and there is no correlation between waldis bad behaviour and anything else, waldi is behaving bad to almost all and not only to you.) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 07:01:38PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: For the record, i did ask on #debian-kernel, and got no reply, and when asked, Bastian Blank did say he didn't know who did it, and Stephan Gran, and Roland Mas, who are admining alioth, know, but don't want to say. Hrm, last time you silently removed somebody from the kernel team (Jonas), people were able to find out it was you in the end. Maybe you can use the same technique now, or maybe that feature got removed/deactivated in newer gforge versions. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:03:29PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. Oh come on Sven! This thread was about the accidential removal of your kernel team commit access. It has been restored since them. The problem is fixed. The wider problem has been there since marsch last year or so, and it was never fixed. Tell you what, if you continue trolling and ranting here, sooner or later your commit access will be removed *on purpose* with no way for you to get it back. This is not a threat but a warning. Yeah, right, is it so difficult to solve this as it should have been ? Do you really believe there is any valid justification to having me suspended for a year despite the 70:7 strong opposition of the DDs who where asked to express themselves ? What did it gain, and what was the reason that made the DAMs decide this way ? Appart that the expulsers provided more hatefull and agressive quotes than the those opposing the expulsion, and the DAMs chose to put them in value. Do you believe it was correct for the expulsers to ask for my expulsion on the day after i proposed my DPL candidacy, while i had not posted a single post on the debian lists for over a month ? And that the DAMs chose to hide this for whatevr obscure reason ? We know that you're not happy with the situation, but continueing to bring it up will not solve it either. Please don't reply and work on important things instead. Yeah, right, which is what i have been trying to do since over a year, first i worked, and provided over 30 or so patches to d-i despite the d-i access removal, just to get bashed in half the report by a clueless frans who jumped on every little excuse to explode, and finally made some under-hand manipulation with the ftp-masters to remove my upload right of the .udebs. This is what i did when i wrote the wiki page : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs%2eSvenLutherIssue and got FUCK YOU and the biggest load of self-satisfied and self-centered crap I've ever seen from frans, and abuse from geert and holger (which they removed in shame later on), and blackmail of joeyh in return. This is what i did in february, organizing hardware for the debian booth, passing time to prepare the ps3 debian install, on the ps3 that geert uutyeroven had arranged, and geert stappers or holger found the occasion to bash me when i once posted to the list by mistake while searching for a TV set. I did this while those hateful expulsers secretely where scheming to restart the expulsion procedure, while on saturday evening the DAMs had sent me a mail which got eaten by the debian.org mail greylisting or whatever, and while i spoke to James Troup on sunday afternoon, after having hold a discussion about the future possibilities of the kernel developments, of which nobody from the d-i team assisted except holger, who was forced to film, and frans passed by me without returning my greeting afterward. I did this while the expulsion process was underway and posted only few select mails, and even was mostly silent for the week or two that followed the end of the support mail period, waiting for the DAMs to decide in frustration and trauma, while Frans started agressing me on the lists again. I was doing this when i discovered this latest case. So, for me, now, in debian, the most important thing, is that this continuous agression are stopped, that each party in this is blamed accordying to their responsabilities, in a fair and equitable way, and that the one-sided punishment are lifted, and that we are all allowed to work on the parts of debian that we like and code all happily forever after. Can you tell me a single reason why this should not happen ? Can you tell me a single reason that justifies the DAMs decision to act as they did, and which can be named without shame (i know that one reason of the decision is the fact that the other party threatened to stop all d-i related work if they didn't get their way, just as Joey Hess has written on the wiki and that this would have caused a problem so near the etch release, i also know that Joerg Jaspert (and others) heavily disliked Anthony Towns, and thus it could justify the manipulation of the dates of the expulsers mail, to make it appear as if this was Anthony's action, but these are hardly noble reasons we can approve of, don't we) ? Joey, if you see this kind of attitude in real life, while you really stand by, and counsel the victim to support everything and be silent, especially as you being a pillar of the community, can act to change it ? This is not some unnamed oppression by a state or power we have no access too, this is unfairness,
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:33:28PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 13:23]: [...] Sven, this whole thread is about that your commit access to the kernel This whole thread is about me being stopped from doing meaningful debian technical contribution and punished for not being respectful enough to frans and not meekly having bowed under the repeated punishment which they have dealt to me in order to get me silenced. svn repro was revoked without anyone telling you. What then happened is that the alioth admins published that waldi revoked the access, waldi refused to comment to it, and was finally beaten by Ganneff and me to reenable your access. So, you see, two people jumped up to help you to get your access back, and were successful. Sure, but it is an exact reproduction of what happened last year, when i discovered after coming back to debian work after my mothers funeral, that frans had revoked my d-i svn access. I can understand that you are annoyed/angry at waldi now, but please No, i am not angry at Bastian. Bastian is a good guy, if a bit blunt in his communication. I am angry at Debian, who has handled me unfairly (to use a nice word for it), and have left a select few go into a calumniation and provocation campaign against looking the other way. I am angry at the DAMs for having used the expulsion request in their private warfar against Anthony Towns, i am angry at all DDs because nobody contested the DAMs decision, and thus silently accepted another level of escalation of something that if you think of it, you would never have accepted in any RL condition. consider that some people in Debian did efforts to help you to have your access restored. (And BTW, I still think that waldi needs to send a public apology for removing your access - as far as I can see it, it really seems to me waldi shouldn't have admin access because his behaviour is not how any admin should behave. But please stop muddling everything together. Debian as a project is definitly not responsible for waldis bad behaviour - and there is no correlation between waldis bad behaviour and anything else, waldi is behaving bad to almost all and not only to you.) No, Debian needs to send me a public apology for how it has handled me since over a year, i have little hope that those who where the worst agressors will ever have enough honour and dignity to recognize their part of fault, but the debian project as a whole owes me an apology of how i was handled, and Debian owes me a lifting of all the punishments it has unfairly submitted to me. You all know me, you all know what entusiast and time i devoted to debian, and what i have achieved all over the almost 9 years since i became DD. Everyone who meets me in RL will tell you that i am a nice guy, always helpful and friendly. Is there any justification of the kind of harrasment i have been under since over a year, and any excuse for Debian allowing this to happen ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 05:04:49PM +0200, Michael Banck wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 07:01:38PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: For the record, i did ask on #debian-kernel, and got no reply, and when asked, Bastian Blank did say he didn't know who did it, and Stephan Gran, and Roland Mas, who are admining alioth, know, but don't want to say. Hrm, last time you silently removed somebody from the kernel team (Jonas), people were able to find out it was you in the end. Maybe you can use the same technique now, or maybe that feature got removed/deactivated in newer gforge versions. Possibly, how could i know. Still if this was still the case, there is really no justification that Stephen didn't tell me as he knew about it. Notice also that the DAMs in january, when they called me, said i have those expulsion request in my mailbox, didn't tell me who it was, or the reason they invoked for it. Notice that when the mess with Frans started, i was never told until month later what the d-i folk really reproached to me, until someday Anthony told me that the real problem was that Frans felt i didn't respect him enough. Notice, how in all this, instead of doing the managerial correct thing to do, and face the issue and solve it, one way or another, it was handled in secrecy, and behind the back shadowy dealings and whatever not. A bit of courage, honestity and straigthforwardness would have solved this whole mess before it had a chance to happen, over a year ago. Do we really wish to continue this for another year, just so that they reask for my expulsion in marsch next year, just before the suspension is over ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Sven, stop it already! We've seen this several times already. You're not bringing up anything new. You're not helping yourself if you continue. Regards, Joey -- It's practically impossible to look at a penguin and feel angry. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 05:40:26PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven, stop it already! why should i ? The times i stopped, i got punished worse without provocation ? We've seen this several times already. Yes, so, what ? I have seen that if i don't make a fuss over this, everyone is pretty happy to let things slide into forgoteness. Never has me being silent helped in any way. You're not bringing up anything new. And i will repeat it as long as people try to ignore me, and until Debian stands up and act in a dign and honourable way in this. You're not helping yourself if you continue. You mean, i am not being meekly silent and accept my fate, right ? Like said, i was silent for longer periods in the past, and it earned me only repeated agression, so no, i will not be silent, and if you guys take it further, and try to censor me on the lists like it was tried, i guess there are other forums where i could export this mess. Why can't you guys understand how easy it would be to solve this ? Why do you think i proposed an in-person meeting at FOSDEM, and why do you think i spoke with Christian Perrier at solution linux in paris, asking him to help prepare such a in-person meeting at FOSDEM. Why do you think i held a technical discussion meeting at FOSDEM over the kernel, so the d-i folk could voice their critics, and we could reconcile all the difference of opinions, and chose the best technical solution for lenny, now, early in the development process ? Why do you think i wrote that positive wiki page, and called for reconciliation ? These are all things i expected from the DPL last year, when *I* went to him for a mediation. So, yes, i am angry and hurt, but i am rightfully angered, and i will not be silenced, except if someone decide to send some goons after me to empty some rounds of amunition into me. Frankly, all those years back, when i meet you in oldenburg, if i had known what a vampirizing beast debian was, and how the DDs would stand aside while a bunch of power-hungry assholes where going on a systematic campaign to hurt me, i would have gone away running, and not sacrificed so much of my time and work to debian. And you ask me to be silent ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Sven Luther wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:03:29PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. Oh come on Sven! This thread was about the accidential removal of your kernel team commit access. It has been restored since them. The problem is fixed. The wider problem has been there since marsch last year or so, and it was never fixed. And I am beginning to wonder if it ever can be fixed! ...snip... So, what will be done to solve this issue, or should it be left open like a bleeding wound to fester and worsen so much longer ? Isn't it time to solve this in a fair and human way, like it should have been done last year ? And no, you cannot blame Anthony Towns for all the evil this time around. It seems to me that there is plenty of blame to go around. I accept my fair share for everything I have written that has just prolonged the debate. But when a simple accident (removal of access) blows up into a rehash of all the accusations that should have died long ago, it looks like Sven will never let go of this issue. I do not mean to troll, but I do have a serious rhetorical question I would like you to consider. Sven has said It is not enough. So, what is enough? I do not see total abdication as a viable option. It may take two to argue, but one can rehash previous disagreements endlessly. Richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, 28 May 2007, Michael Banck wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 07:01:38PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: For the record, i did ask on #debian-kernel, and got no reply, and when asked, Bastian Blank did say he didn't know who did it, and Stephan Gran, and Roland Mas, who are admining alioth, know, but don't want to say. Hrm, last time you silently removed somebody from the kernel team (Jonas), people were able to find out it was you in the end. Maybe you can use the same technique now, or maybe that feature got removed/deactivated in newer gforge versions. This feature is still available and has always been restricted to project admins. Go to the administration page of the project and click on the link Project history. In other words, all admins of the Alioth kernel project (waldi included) could have find out that waldi removed Sven from the project. In any case, this issue is closed now. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 10:14:42AM -0700, Richard Hecker wrote: Sven Luther wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:03:29PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. Oh come on Sven! This thread was about the accidential removal of your kernel team commit access. It has been restored since them. The problem is fixed. The wider problem has been there since marsch last year or so, and it was never fixed. And I am beginning to wonder if it ever can be fixed! ...snip... So, what will be done to solve this issue, or should it be left open like a bleeding wound to fester and worsen so much longer ? Isn't it time to solve this in a fair and human way, like it should have been done last year ? And no, you cannot blame Anthony Towns for all the evil this time around. It seems to me that there is plenty of blame to go around. I accept my fair share for everything I have written that has just prolonged the debate. But when a simple accident (removal of access) blows up into a rehash of all the accusations that should have died long ago, it looks like Sven will never let go of this issue. Yes, that is the problem, people are waiting for me to let go of the issue, and make as if nothing, stay humbly back, and in a year come back, as a sub-DD with always the threat that people will again hurt me or try to expulse me or whatever. I do not mean to troll, but I do have a serious rhetorical question I would like you to consider. Sven has said It is not enough. So, what is enough? I do not see total abdication as a viable option. It may take two to argue, but one can rehash previous disagreements endlessly. Well, the solution is easy enough. Debian says : In the lamentable incident involving sven, and a handful of persons, both parties share the responsability. The debian project upto now chose to fully side with one party and unfairly punish the other. This is not an acceptable way to handle such a problem, the debian project presents his apologies to Sven for the one-sidedness of its handling of this case, and accepts the apologies of Sven for the numerous rehashing he was forced to make of this issue. The Debian project furthermore commends Sven for the tentative of reconciliation he has made, and notes that the other party of this dispute was fully uninterested in resolving the issue. All the unfair sactions are lifted, the d-i team choses to not forget the old grudges, and will continue to stop Sven from working on d-i, which is an attitude to be frowned upon, but so be it. To which i respond something along the lines of : I truefully regret that it took so long to get a fair resolution of this conflict, and that the d-i leadership rejected my repeated offers of conciliation, as well as the proposal of an in-RL meeting at FOSDEM. I will not pursue this issue, and work outside of the d-i framework for the part of the d-i related work i do. I sincerely regret that i had to write so many mails, and thus have bothered so many of the DDs, and sincerely present my apologies for this, but i saw no other way out, and even asking for help, and trying alternatives like the wiki pages didn't help. From now on i will makes amends, and go back to contributing positive technical stuff, and stop being a nuissance. Everyone is happy, except those few who can't feel satisfied without full bloody victory and will never recognize that just maybe they have some part of responsability in this, but i guess everyone will have only pity and contempt for those, and not allow them to hurt the project and fellow DDs like they did in the future, and everyone will go back to happily coding ever after. Easy, isn't it, and an honourable and honest thing to do. Why is it so easy ? And why do so many feel that the only response to this is hate and rejection, and (ab)use of force and power to solve this ? It all could have been solved a year ago, if there was a real will for it. I know i showed such a will, but it was not matched by the other side. As you say, it takes two to argue, but it also takes two for reconciliation ... Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
#include hallo.h * Sven Luther [Mon, May 28 2007, 06:00:36PM]: You're not bringing up anything new. And i will repeat it as long as people try to ignore me, and until Debian stands up and act in a dign and honourable way in this. You're not helping yourself if you continue. You mean, i am not being meekly silent and accept my fate, right ? Like Sven, come on. This is not the right time and not the right place to cook this story _again_. You may be right, or not, it is just off-topic. And beating dead horses won't make you many friends. Maybe Bastian had something cruel in mind or maybe not, this just does not matter. The current problem is solved. It's time for you to realize that. Eduard. -- Jedes Nachdenken über gutes oder schlechtes Benehmen zeugt von einem Stillstand der geistigen Entwicklung. -- Oscar Wilde -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:16:22PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: #include hallo.h * Sven Luther [Mon, May 28 2007, 06:00:36PM]: You're not bringing up anything new. And i will repeat it as long as people try to ignore me, and until Debian stands up and act in a dign and honourable way in this. You're not helping yourself if you continue. You mean, i am not being meekly silent and accept my fate, right ? Like Sven, come on. This is not the right time and not the right place to When is the right time and the right place ? It has been over a year not being the right time and the right place ... cook this story _again_. You may be right, or not, it is just off-topic. And beating dead horses won't make you many friends. Because i am not yet as dead as the horse, and those i used to think as friend have backstabbed me when i was in need. Maybe Bastian had something cruel in mind or maybe not, this just does not matter. The current problem is solved. It's time for you to realize that. I have nothing against Bastian, i don't think he made it out of an evil intent, but the situation is still shitty, and i want it solved. If Debian has not insisted in punishing me and hurting me for over a year now, this would not have been a problem, but seeing as this is an exact mirror of what frans and the d-i leadership did back then, and which caused pain and suffering to everyone involved as well as to innocent bystanders, ... Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
#include hallo.h * Sven Luther [Mon, May 28 2007, 08:23:52PM]: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:16:22PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: cook this story _again_. You may be right, or not, it is just off-topic. And beating dead horses won't make you many friends. Because i am not yet as dead as the horse, and those i used to think as friend have backstabbed me when i was in need. a) you got it wrong, it is you who is beating b) the world is not black and white. I respect you, but sometimes I think you are wrong and there is no need for further heat when I tell you so. Maybe Bastian had something cruel in mind or maybe not, this just does not matter. The current problem is solved. It's time for you to realize that. I have nothing against Bastian, i don't think he made it out of an evil intent, but the situation is still shitty, and i want it solved. But _HERE_, it is the wrong place for that. You complained about your account being disabled, the problem was analyzed and you got it back. Simple request, simple solution, and we are through with the relevant part. If you feel the strong pressure for cooking the old stuff again, open a separate thread (maybe even on -private). Eduard. -- Naja, Garbage Collector eben. Holt den Müll sogar vom Himmel. (Heise Trollforum über Java in der Flugzeugsteuerung) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Change of the debian code-name base?
Chris Waters wrote: The reason for using Toy Story is the historical connection, through Bruce Perens, between the project and that movie. I'm not aware of any connection, however remote, between Debian and The Simpsons. right, additionally if common knowledge that the first seasons of simpsons were created on a proprietary operating system (irix) with proprietary software. -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Change of the debian code-name base?
Daniel Baumann wrote: right, additionally if common knowledge that the first seasons of simpsons were created on a proprietary operating system (irix) with proprietary software. s/if common knowledge/it's common knowledge/ -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Change of the debian code-name base?
On lun, 2007-05-28 at 22:37 +0200, Daniel Baumann wrote: that the first seasons of simpsons were created on a proprietary operating system (irix) with proprietary software. And what does the common knowledge says about the OS used to create toy story characters? -- Yves-Alexis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Sun, May 27, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be publicly addressed. Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project, ideally to specific threads as I already suggested some time ago. It is awfully complicated to follow what it is exactly you are requesting, and you are annoying everyone. If you do not stop spamming the lists I will support any proposal to remove you from the lists before even looking at your requests, because listening to you while you keep being a nuisance would make me look like a supporter of spam, trolls and general chaos and I certainly don't want to be associated with such things. Kind regards, -- Sam. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Change of the debian code-name base?
Yves-Alexis Perez wrote: And what does the common knowledge says about the OS used to create toy story characters? no clue, i never liked or got interested in toy story. -- Address:Daniel Baumann, Burgunderstrasse 3, CH-4562 Biberist Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet: http://people.panthera-systems.net/~daniel-baumann/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public request that action be taken at whoever abused their technical power to remove me from the kernel team at alioth.
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:05:00PM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: I am now making this request to you as DPL, that you investigate who was behind this action, and find out why it was done, and that it be publicly addressed. Sven, first of all, please restrict your postings to debian-project, Whyever should i do that ? ideally to specific threads as I already suggested some time ago. It is awfully complicated to follow what it is exactly you are requesting, and you are annoying everyone. It is especially awful complicated to ignore it you mean ? There is no doubt about what i am requesting, as everyone is telling me, i keep repeating the same thing over and over. If you do not stop spamming the lists I will support any proposal to remove you from the lists before even looking at your requests, because listening to you while you keep being a nuisance would make me look like a supporter of spam, trolls and general chaos and I certainly don't want to be associated with such things. Sure, and i will have to go to slashdot or the general press, is this that you want ? Sam, is it so difficult to stop this in a human and decent way ? You are acting exactly like Anthony Towns did last year, i guess that the DPL position corrupts one after all :( So, if you keep threatening me, like you just did, this only enourages me to continue, and escalate the issue. So, i ask you again as DPL, do something so that the agression and iniquity debian has shown me since a year is stopped, and we can all stop this. This is as easy as a public pronounsement on debian's part that it has erred in the way it has handled this matter, that i am not the sole responsible of it, and a lifting of the unjust sanctions against me. (not the d-i related ones, since we all know the d-i leadership are arrogant bastards who are not emotionally equipped to recognize they maybe share the fault and do the right thing). To which i reply how sorry i was it had to take so long for a decent resolution to this, and how sorry i am to have been forced to pollute everyone's mailing lists, and so on. Then everyone goes back to happily coding forever after, and the issue is forgotten and left to rest. Instead you chose the way of escalation, it will never be forgotten, and it generates frustration and anger, and will constitute a major mess in the future, unless you get me killed to silence me. So, be courageous, and do the right thing in these, and let the issue be solved as it should have over a year ago. And if some threaten to leave the project because i am not punished, then so be it, debian is better off without such persons whose behaviour will only hurt the project again one way or another, and should not be encouraged. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
