Debian Auditor job up for grabs
I've decided to step down as the Debian Auditor. I'm not even sure if my delegation is still current, but in any case, I'm not able to do the job properly, so I need to give it up. I think the next DPL welcomes volunteers, so here's what the job consists of, from my point of view. 1. Join SPI as a contributing member. Then you automatically get the SPI monthly reports. 2. Contact the other organizations holding Debian monies. I have a list of the organizations and the contact addresses to start with. 3. Ask the organization treasurerers for an end-of-the-year profit/loss/balance report of the Debian monies. 4. Post the total profit/loss/balance to debian-private. Future improvements: - Reports more often than once a year? Not a problem for SPI, but might be a problem for smaller organizations. - Track other assets, as well. We have lots of hardware and might benefit from a better tracking as to what we have where. I'm more than willing to help out the next Auditor getting started, I'm not about to disappear from the face of this planet :) -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * pgptkpysMuwkc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Results of the Lenny release GR
Ean Schuessler e...@brainfood.com writes: Ironically, Bdale *is* warping the results of the vote and applying an editorial voice to the interpretation of the results. Umm, why shouldn't Bdale have his opinion about the results? Nowhere does it say that the (acting) Secretary is the authority to interprete GR results (that's not interpreting the Constitution). The people who do the interpretation are obviously the release team, with the DPL being the potential sanity checker. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Discussion: Possible GR: Enhance requirements for General Resolutions
Joerg Jaspert jo...@debian.org writes: Or we have 2 vote options, one for 2Q, one for Q. What makes more sense? Guess changing mine, to avoid confusion/too many options?! (All just dreaming ahead to a possible vote :) ) I don't think having options for 2Q and Q for resolution sponsoring makes the ballot too confusing, provided we don't end up with dozens of options. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Discussion: Possible GR: Enhance requirements for General Resolutions
Joerg Jaspert jo...@debian.org writes: a) The constitution gets changed to not require K developers to sponsor a resolution, but floor(2Q). [see §4.2(1)] This would mean that you need almost as many sponsors as is required for the quorum (2Q vs 3Q). I think that is too much. I think floor(Q) sponsors would be a more appropriate number. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Re-thinking Debian membership
Wouter Verhelst [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you're going to do this, there should also be another way than voting for people to reset their timer. I wouldn't want to see people having to propose a null vote because they didn't care for any official votes during the last two years and now find themselves in danger of being kicked out because they consider actually working on Debian to be of more importance than voting. Sending a simple abstain to a DPL vote every other year would be more work than proposing a null GR vote? But then again, I'm not against adding more checks, maybe include package uploads and LDAP information changes? I like Lars' proposal. The only issue I have is how secure can an automated keyring be. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: linhdd concerns
Pierre Habouzit [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I know, but maybe (but that's sad if we need to do that) we should have overrides validated by the QA people … *sigh*. Should the override file have a justification field for each (error) override? That would help generic DD's going through all override files. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer *
Re: linhdd concerns
Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ] I could use fdisk. Just that on Slackware and Absolute, which I use, ] you can only run fdisk as root. So -- I downloaded util-linux and makes it sound to me like you should be packaging abs_fdisk separately and having linhdd Depend: on it; or, ideally, getting util-linux patched so its fdisk can support the same features as abs_fdisk. No, all you really need to do is to have linhdd depend on util-linux and use simply fdisk -l /dev/sda. Works just fine, provided the user has read rights on the device (and if the user doesn't, it doesn't matter *which* program tries to read the data). -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Debian Maintainers Quality Assurance (Was: Re: Updated Debian Maintainers Keyring)
[Trimmed to project only] Torsten Werner [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why don't we handle such problems in a more friendly way? I think this is a startup time for the DM procedure, and Kartik got the unfortunate honor of being the first DM with a poor package in the archive. We don't have any guidelines as to what constitutes so poor packaging that the upload rights should be revoked, what deserves only a public lashing, and what should be dealt with privately. I personally think that any package having a lintian override file is a suspect for the first option. Linda and lintian are there for a purpose and hiding their complaints is not something to be done lightly (I don't have that big a problem with leaving linda/lintian errors/warnings in the package, I've done that myself - at least then other people can easily see the problems). Remember that by applying for the DM status you are saying I know I can handle (basic) Debian packaging without constant supervision. Sometimes you are wrong, and there's no shame in that - provided you learn from your mistake. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Updated Debian Maintainers Keyring
Steve McIntyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wow, the linhdd package is *special*. Based on initial analysis of this package, please remove: * the DM (Kartik Mistry) from the keyring (he clearly needs to learn more before he should be allowed to upload directly) I too feel that Kartik should not yet be allowed to upload packages unchecked. Not understanding the architecture field and *not* asking the sponsor for help it is a show-stopper, IMO. DM team, please consider this a second to remove Kartik from the DM keyring, as per the GR. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Updated Debian Maintainers Keyring
Kartik Mistry [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: linHDD is special, really. I'm talking to upstream regarding this issue. It contains source of util-linux and fdisk. Does it really need a modified copy of fdisk? It is a frontend, so I see zero reason for it needing a backend, or then the package description is completely wrong. If it absolutely must have a special version of fdisk, then you need to make the Debian source package build the fdisk, too, and change the description to something more suitable. Also, in that case, please consider if there is a need for a package that contains a modified fdisk, or if other graphical front ends for fdisk and others might do the trick. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Updated Debian Maintainers Keyring
Charles Plessy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is the point of writing to this list I think that Mr Foo should not upload. Should these posts be encouraged? Do we want to read more of them? What is the line which will distinguish sound opinion from calomny? That is a good question. As the GR specifies, that multiple developers may request a removal from the DM keyring, what should a single developer, who notices something that in his/her opinion is bad enough to warrant removal, do? Should the DD state his opinion on a public list (-project, as the DM announcements go there)? Should s/he privately solicit seconds? Should s/he just wait until others notice the problem independently? Should s/he file a bug report against debian-maintainers? -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Updated Debian Maintainers Keyring
Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I knew this DM thing was broken, but I hadn't understood yet the point of cluelessness it required to be designed. Could you enlighten us clueless as to what you find clueless in the DM system? -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations
Bart Martens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The good reasons for requesting the removal of inappropriate additions to the DM keyring are Why is it better to introduce more work for the DM Keyring team than ask a simple apology? Also, you are aware that even if multiple DD's do second your request, it is entirely up to the DM Keyring team if they agree with you that this is a good reason for removal? So, you might end up with accomplishing nothing. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Miriam Ruiz and Cameron Dale advocated for the DM keyring in beta test (Was: Re: call for seconds - request for removal of DM registrations)
[Please cc me if you trim the replies to -newmaint only, I do follow -project] [This relates to the fact that there are currently three non-DD people in the Debian Maintainer keyring, which is in beta-test, and some people feel that this should be announced to -newmaint, as per the GR text. See recent threads in -project for more details of the argument.] Bart Martens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: solved by an apology but by completing the remaining formal steps for Here we go then - happy now, or are there still some steps missing? Miriam Ruiz Recommended-By: Joey Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] NM-Page: https://nm.debian.org/[EMAIL PROTECTED] KeyCheck: pub 1024D/36EE0861 2004-12-25 Key fingerprint = AA46 F4F2 BD59 75A4 EE42 8223 7DB9 6D2E 36EE 0861 uid Miriam Ruiz [EMAIL PROTECTED] sig!336EE0861 2004-12-25 Miriam Ruiz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cameron Dale Recommended-By: Anthony Towns [EMAIL PROTECTED] NM-Page: https://nm.debian.org/nmstatus.php?email=camrdale%40gmail.com KeyCheck: pub 1024D/0D2036AD 2006-01-10 Key fingerprint = FF07 84FE E439 DA85 CAF1 EA95 0F1F 76E2 0D20 36AD uid Cameron Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] sig! 5230514A 2006-01-24 Shaun Jackman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: soc-ctte discussion at DebConf7
Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: + li If the election requires multiple winners, the list of winners is +created by sorting the list of options by ascending strength. Why couldn't we just use some STV method for such elections? STV is a tried and proved method, no need for us to start inventing new methods. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: soc-ctte discussion at DebConf7
MJ Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I feel we're really missing most sorely list-admin teams who will take care of the social fabric of one list each and are empowered to make limited short-term changes to preserve it, including updating the list info pages and small posting bans. We should prioritise those sorts of bottom-up change over a top-down soc-ctte. I agree. Most of the problems with bad social interaction can be solved by quick and non-intrusive private intervention from an authoritative party. Small list-admin teams would have the following powers at their disposal: 1. Contact the poster in private and tell him (or her, hate this English gender specific stuff) why his post was inappropriate and ask him to be more careful in the future. 2. If this doesn't work, warn the poster (again in private) that persisting in inappropriate behaviour will result in further action. 3. If there's still a problem, warn the poster in public. 4. If that didn't help, apply a temporary ban. 5. If there's still a problem, apply a permanent ban with notification to the listmasters and the DAM. In myy experience most problems would be solved in step one, provided the list-admins are socially adept. Of course, this only takes care of the mailing lists. It doesn't address cases like Sven or Ted, where it probably would have helped to have a permanent ombudsman team. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: soc-ctte discussion at DebConf7
Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What is the difference between 'a list admin' and 'a small list admin team' in this situation? Nothing, really, I just believe in teams in volunteer work, because then it's more likely that somebody in the team has the time and the energy to do what's needed. Also, why wouldn't (it be the duty of a DD/it be in the interest of a DD) to make such notification to an offending individual in private and to CC another officlal (list admin, DPL, soc-ctte leader,etc.) so that the official can be alerted and if necessary make the suspension or other appropriate action? Most people have an innate respect for the authority. If a listmaster mails me saying that my posts to -project are inappropriate because of X, I'm more likely to believe him than a random developer saying the same thing. I'm not a social scientist, though, so I cannot say if my generalization is valid. And, having DD's do the step one would just mean that the burden for making decisions falls again on the listmasters, who have said that they much rather not have that burden (and I agree, they've signed up for the technical administration, not social). Also, in that case I agree with MJ's point that it's better if the decisions are made by somebody who is familiar with the problem, not by somebody who has to first study it. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Social Committee proposal text (diff), updated
Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I see little to support the notion of a) preemptive action b) private interventions being something the community would instantly start preferring. Maybe it should. In social disagreements the fastest way to resolve problems is if the problem is privately resolved before it gets out of hand. Let's face it, all of us want to save face in public, and if we're given a public reprimand that hurts. If a delegate contacts us privately and discusses our behaviour, we're much more likely to accept the issues and try to modify them. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Range Voting - the simpler better alternative to Condorcet voting
Barak A. Pearlmutter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (a) Condorcet is not actually gaming resistant in this sense. See the DH3 pathology for an example. I still fail to understand how Condorcet with the default option suffers from the DH3 pathology (I did understand how Condorcet without the default option does suffer from DH3). Could you enlighten me? -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Range Voting - the simpler better alternative to Condorcet voting
Barak A. Pearlmutter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is pretty straightforward to add some extra candidates whose existence causes voters to use up their default option elsewhere on the ballot, below the dark horse candidate. I'm still a bit in the dark. Why would a voter want to vote ADXBC instead of AXDBC if he doesn't want any of the candidates B,C and D to win (A,B,C are the serious candidates, D is the universally hated dark horse, and X is None of the below)? In my understanding, ranking NOTB above a candidate means that that candidate will have a slightly harder time to meet the quorum, which is what the voter actually wants. Let's take some figures: A - 31 supporters B - 32 supporters C - 37 supporters D - 0 supporters In Debian system, Q would then be 5 and the quorum 15. Honest voting would mean: 31x ACBXD 32x BCAXD 37x CBAXD A,B and C would meet the quorum easily, D wouldn't. C would win by a fair margin. If all voters rank other serious candidates below NOTB: 31x AXCBD 32x BXCAD 37x CXBAD Now, nobody meets the quorum and everybody is sort-of happy, with the election going to be re-run. If voters rank D above NOTB: 31x ADXCB 32x BDXCA 37x CDXBA D wins, nobody but D is happy. I don't see why the voters would choose the last strategy, as it produces the worst result, whereas the second strategy produces only a not-so-good result. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What do Open Source Projects need? - 2 Projects need
Patrick Frank [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: when I look back to the old days on Undernet back in the late 90s [snip] When discussing ad hominem attacks, it's often smart not to make such attacks yourself. like Sven you are looking at the wrong end. With a proper conflict management the first problem Sven had could have been solved in a way so that all the other situations would have never happened. Volunteer projects are unfortunately notorious for often having very bad conflict management (because, usually there are no people who are good at it). If Sven Luther was active within the Debian Project for 8 years and one conflict between him, Frans Pop and maybe 1 or 2 other people lead to drama, and this drama lead to more drama, etc. till his fight for Unfortunately, this wasn't just an isolated incident. If it were, I think things wouldn't have escalated this far. But Sven is a human being. And he is the only person who pays for all this drama. He was also the only person who persisted in continuing the drama. You don't get an healthy debate by fingerpointing valuable contributors. I disagree with that. Fingerpointing - especially in volunteer projects - is usually a bad way of trying to solve problems, especially if they are social. A healthy community can take it when long term users and contributors try to have a controversial debate about thinks that should be improved. This is different from fingerpointing. A healty debate is a good thing and should be encouraged. Assigning the blame isn't and shouldn't. The Debian Community needs a working conflict management strategy that is not a simplified theory of Darwin the stronger one wins. (or the dude in the right team / with the right jobs wins) Well, I'd say that we need a working conflict management. Strategy without implementation is worthless. But, having a strategy too would of course be nice, as it would guide the people doing the management. But during the electoral campaign you showed a totally different face than you do right now. And that is hard to take. I have seen your page that used to be behind sam2007.zoy.org - of course the domain points elsewhere now. Maybe not all people who read this mailing list remember If you are going to engage in public ad hominem attacks, would you at least care to provide *some* support for your attacks in the form of proof (I'd settle for a link to archive.org database)? Attacks without proof are less than worthless, they only make others to ignore your other points. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Two GR concepts for dicussion
MJ Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: appeal route (an undo GR?) within the project and realise that if we go barking mad, there is *always* a possibility of Real-Life courts. I'm intrigued. Considering that Debian Project is a non-legal, multinational entity, which courts would have what jurisdiction over which actions? I don't think I would stand a chance on having a Finnish court do a damn thing about any action made by the project. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Two GR concepts for dicussion
MJ Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IANAL, but I understand that jurisdiction depends on who, what and where is involved. This project is a project of some organisations and they could be taken to court. Various people work on it and they could be taken to court if they were involved. Yes, of course people and (legal) entities are responsible for their actions. I just don't see how this would be very relevant to any issue at hand. I guess I mistook your statement to mean a potential collective responsibility over the actions of an individual. I'm sorry to hear Finnish courts offer so little. Let me elaborate. Let's say that I insulted you publicly on some Debian mailing list. I of course would be responsible, and you could sue me in a Finnish court (and maybe even in some foreign court, too, but you would not get me to appear there). You couldn't, however, sue e.g. the listmasters (or, well, you could sue but I think you'd get thrown out pretty fast). But, IANAL, too. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Range Voting - the simpler better alternative to Condorcet voting
Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This discussion doesn't belong on debian-policy. The policy maintainers -policy dropped. On Sat, May 26, 2007 at 05:19:26PM -0700, CLAY S wrote: which system is in use. That's not a reasonable assumption, because *Range Voting rewards attempts at strategic voting and Condorcet punishes it*. Your so-called DH3 pathology is not a bug, it's a feature. Besides, I don't see the DH3 pathology applying in Debian votes, as we always have the default option, which should be ranked above all unacceptable candidates (ie. voting ADBCX is incorrect, one should vote AXBCD in the example in [1]). [1] http://rangevoting.org/DH3.html -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bits from the DPL: DSA and buildds and DAM, oh my!
Pierre Habouzit [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I understand they cannot communicate about _everything_. But a downtime like that _is_ worth communicating. If they don't understand You did notice that the DSA team is about to install a request tracker for issues like you described? I would think that takes care of most of the current communication related issues. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Criteria for a successful DPL board
Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * have a 3- or 5-member leadership team, selected by the top-leader but composed from the rest of the winning vote tally, where by winning I mean those top 3 or top 5 who win over NOTA * this selection must be based on a public pre-vote and post-vote discussion on platform compatibility, with veto rights by someone, maybe secretary? Why make this so difficult? Why not let the candidates indicate in their platforms who their team would consist of? That way the voters would know at the vote time, not afterwards. This type of election is pretty common in Finland. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Social Committee proposal text (diff)
Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: +pThe Social Committee may ask a Developer to take a particular social +course of action even if the Developer does not wish to; this requires +a 3:1 majority./p OK, what happens if the Developer doesn't take the required course of action? With the ctte it is easy, somebody does an NMU, but I don't see how you can do something similar in social situations. + liAt least one third of all elected candidates should have been + members of the project for at least Y/2 years, where Y is the age + of the Project in years. If fewer than one third of candidates meet + this requirement, the election process is repeated./li Like Lars already said, this becomes an impossible requirement sooner or later. A five year rule would be better, but even then this rule may result in an impasse, if we don't have enough qualified candidates who fullfil the requirement. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Social Committee proposal text (diff)
Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Think of scale - right now we need 16 people to 'win' the election, and the seats last twice as long as the leadership seat. It made sense to me - please say if it doesn't to you. One question related to the Concordet method: does it fullfill the representative criteria? AFAIUI the Concordet method allows this (please correct me if I'm wrong): We have two groups of people, A and B. A has 20 people, B 10. A fields candidates a1, a2 and a3, and B fields b1, b2 and b3. We are about to elect three people. All A people post ballots a1,a2,a3,NOTA,b1,b2,b3, and all B people post ballots b1,b2,b3,NOTA,a1,a2,a3. In your suggestion the first three people to be elected would be a1, a2 and a3, as they all beat all B candidates. In a representative election a1, a2 and b1 should be elected, instead. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Criteria for a successful DPL board
Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There might be many small decisions where such a structure is overblown. In that case, we will adjust the working: maybe have a chairman of the board who can take small decisions. The power to make small decisions should be delegated to the people who actually do the things. This is critical in volunteer organizations, in my experience. I'm slightly confused on what you're actually proposing. Are you proposing a council or a leadership team? A council would be Miniature Debian and could make decisions faster than a GR, but would not lead as such. A council could be a larger body (in fact, 10 people would be too few, IMO) whereas a leadership team of 10 people is too much (IMO). For the record, I'm *not* suggesting that Debian should have an elected council, I think our GR procedure is good enough to handle cases that would fall into council's area of responsibility. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Etch Stable.
MJ Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Did the Finnish Red Cross change from just volunteers to volunteers and paid staff? If so, how? I don't know the history of the FRC that well. I do know that there have been paid staff for at least 50 years. Unsurprisingly, I don't think FRC publish that info online in English but I don't read the languages they publish more in. Yes, the English pages are very basic. If, however, you go the the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies web site, there you can find, under Who we are / National societies[1], the fact that the national societies employ some 300.000 people and have 97 million members and volunteers. [1] http://www.ifrc.org/who/society.asp?navid=03_07 -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: After reading about various issues that arise in Debian on a social level, I thought about a possible solution: a Developer BTS. This would, in effect, be a centralized black-list database. I'm against any such system. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Social Committee proposal
Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The problem with a an ad hoc group is the composition. We need elections to get it the group be representative and to be accountable. An ad hoc group would most likely be composed of those people wanting to work with the issues. Depending on how the group is composed (closed or open membership) no one wanting to work wouldn't be left out. An election inherently means that some people wanting to work with the issues are left out (not always, as often in large volunteer bodies you struggle to fill out the minimum, IME). Why would an ad hoc body be less accountable than an elected body? The body needs some kind of check to have any power, be it either a DPL delegation or a direct constitutional power, but in either case there should be a way to make the group accountable, even if they are not elected. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Social Committee proposal
Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, but that would mean that it could have hundreds of members. That's just not manageable. You're an optimist, I would think that there are at most a few dozen interested people in Debian. But yes, in theory you could have as many member as there are DD's (assuming that the membership would be limited to DD's only). It would be inherently less accountable because people don't have any means to replace its members. Should we really let anyone join, and then have to convince the leader or do a general resolution vote every time we want to replace someone who's doing something wrong? Well, now I'm being optimist, but I would think that a vote to replace a member would happen a lot less often than a (yearly) election. FWIW, I'm for a group of people taking an active role in tackling our social problems. I'm just not sure if an elected committee is the best way of doing that. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: For what ever reason I thought it was a good idea at the time, it appears folks think its totally evil. I never thought of ebay sellers comments as evil. But in any case, I shall not purse any future ideas on this path. In eBay you don't have to give your name, so it is difficult to connect you to any pseudonym there. In Debian it is trivial to connect a developer to a real-life persona. See the difference? -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: the tech ctte seems to have people use regular email address and discusses things in public, will the soc-ctte be different? My idea you say is bad because it follows something like the tech-ctte in this regard, as I see it, which is the basis for the soc-ctte, so far. Is that accurate? The issues the ctte discusses are technical and reflect the person's technical decisions. The issues are mostly should maintainer A do X or Y. The issues a social committee would discuss are social and reflect a person's social skills. The issues would be should we take some action on maintainer A for doing X. I find these two areas very different. YMMV, of course. Granted, now that I've thought about it, you could always say that a public mailing list would be the same thing as a BTS pseudo package. Is having a repository of people having at one point of their life poor social skills as defined by the Debian project a good thing? -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: something related to the soc-ctte
Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: myriad flamewars and personal insults. Are they not examples of poor social skills and are they not part of the great memory called the internet? To me, there is a big difference in having various flammable discussions, including suggestions to the removal of a persion, in various mailing lists, and having a dedicated repository for such an information. This may be a thin and arbitary difference, I admit, and I'm still thinking about my position on this. If that person resolved the bad interactions, this would be reflected in this post. Resolving social issue is a good thing. And the interaction would contained in this report, not on a list that is usually searched and cached like google. Yes, resolving an issue is a good thing. But, let me take a real-life example of what would be stored in the BTS/archive: It would contain something like two years worth of flammable mails and various arbitration attempts between a developer and a team (Sven vs. d-i), with no real solution. Now, do you feel that it would be OK to have that flame war available to a prospective employer of Sven? At the moment a prospective employee would have to wade through loads of Internet pages (Google search for Sven Luther Debian does not return anything negative). -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Social Committee proposal
Josip Rodin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I also think that a social committee would be a good idea. Suggestion: why not put up a mailing list (say debian-social) which would work in the same fashion as debian-legal does? That would avoid the issue of having an elected body of doing the work, instead people *wanting* to work would be able to do it. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian Etch Stable.
gregor herrmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why? Because not only my personal experience in NPOs but also the scientific literature on this subject show that a mix of paid staff and volunteers in an organization/project leads to disagreement/conflicts; and that introducing organzational changes needs a specific way of doing so (getting consent, involving affected parties, ...). This is not a certain cause-effect relationship. For example, I work hundreds of hours of voluntary work for the Finnish Red Cross, which has a staff of a two hundred or so paid workers in addition to the thousands of volunteers. There are very few conflicts between the volunteers and the paid staff - perhaps because we are all working towards the same goal and the staff takes care of the boring routine things, leaving the volunteers to do what they want, when they want. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Help for OSS Survey
Chuck, James, sorry to flood your mailboxes, please let us know if you don't wish to receive this discussion directly. Amaya [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why was there no such negative reaction back in the days where Ximian hired Gnome developers to do their Gnome work? Why is this so different in Debian, if Ximian's CEO was also the Gnome Project Leader? Why did the rest of the Gnome Developers accept this situation without the bitterness we've seen in Debian? I'm not party to any internal communication in other large FOSS projects, but considering that no such flamewars have reached the Slashdot, I gather our Dunc-Tank dispute is pretty unique. It would be very nice to have a comparative study between say the Ximian case and Dunc-Tank case. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Proposal to delay the decition of the DPL of the withdrawal of the Package Policy Committee delegation
Debian Project Secretary [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sorry, that is not the intended ruling. The ruling was in answer to a query about a random group of undelegated developers changing policy, which would be unconstitutional. OK, so the constitution allows the DPL to delegate any authority to a delegate? Ie. the DPL could delegate somebody to overrule developers on technical actions (6.1.4) or adjudicate disputes about interpretation of the constitution (7.1.3). I did read the constitution so that the DPL may not delegate authority that belongs to somebody else according to the constitution. I did think that you were referring to a future DPL delegation when you answered to aj, but I guess you were referring to the REJECT. aj: As per that interpretation, I've added a REJECT for uploads of debian-policy. I won't be looking into formally creating a new delegation 'til after etch has released, at which point I hope we can find at least four people who'll be active in maintaining policy according to the policy process we've had for quite some time. manoj: This presupposes that you have either managed to change the constitution, or replaced the secretary with one whose views are in line with yours -- since under current wording of the constitution, that would be unconstitutional. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Policy delegation
Martin Wuertele [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I therefore propose a resolution as defined in section 4.2.2 of the Do note that such proposals need to be sent to debian-vote to be effective. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Filibustering general resolutions
Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Instead, after 4-6 weeks beyond the date of the priginal proposal, allow for 4*K developers to cut the proposal time short (say, impose a deadline of now + 2 weeks). This means not only that the interval is large, but a number of developers also feel that the resolution is being stalled deliberately. I agree with Manoj that fixing the holes in the Constitution is a good thing, and I find Manoj's suggestion above a good solution to the (potential) problem. Manoj, are you going to write this out as a GR sometime soonish? -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Auditing project assets (Re: Constitutional Amendment GR: Handling assets for the project)
[-project readers, we've been discussing how to audit various Debian assets around the world on -vote] Anthony Towns aj@azure.humbug.org.au writes: I suspect getting Europe done first, then SPI in October, then getting around to all the other groups (Linux Australia, Debian Japan, various latin american groups, etc) would make a lot of sense. This sounds like a good plan. Should we move this discussion to -project? What information would you like to get from me, and how? (either historical, in so far as I have it, or ongoing authorisations/etc) Yes, this should stay in -project. If I start with monetary assets, I think I first would like to have data on authorizations that have been going on this year. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call for a new DPL mediation ... This will be the only thread i will reply to in the next time about this issue.
Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A GR can definitly override any decision, and restore Sven's commit access. Only if the commit access is deemed by the TC to be a technical question. Well, I guess you could argue that any decision by the TC that a certain question is not a technical one could be overturned by a 2:1 majority in a GR, but even then I guess the matter should then be turned back to the TC for resolution. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: uol.com.br and petsupermarket
Guilherme de S. Pastore [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Really, even though UOL does not respond, does inflicting this kind of thing on their users seem right? You are punishing people which have nothing to do with the problem. You have messed with people's work for no practical reason. You have dropped a nuclear bomb to kill a cockroach, and the cockroach is still alive. As a postmaster of a largish (12000+ users) email forwarding gateway, I'd say the way the Debian listmasters have handled this situation seems very valid. If an ISP doesn't bother to respond (not neccesarily by rectifying the situation, but at least explaining the reasons for some strange behaviour) in any way to trouble tickets issued from the outside, that ISP does then risk the fact of being blacklisted. I would be seriously distressed if the listmasters had started with blacklisting without first trying to contact the relevant addresses (like [EMAIL PROTECTED]). -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Private copies of list replies
Sven Mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: their mail client and/or switch to mutt (which is the only mail client I know which supports MFT). For the record, Gnus supports MFT too. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian and wireless networking
Jean Bouffard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So before I go and download Debian to see if I can get it to work, could you just tell me if it will work or not? If you can get the Windows driver for it, it will probably work with ndiswrapper. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Just a single Question for the Candidates
Jonathan Walther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Fri, Mar 05, 2004 at 02:19:29AM -0500, Erinn Clark wrote: 2. Don't flirt with us just because we're women. Impossible. More than 90% of the worlds men use that as their chief criteria for choosing who they flirt with. Should Debian now exclude all heterosexual men? Do you flirt with each and every woman you meet? I don't and I think none of my male friends do either. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer *
