Re: 1 year release good enough.
[dE .] Look what Microsoft and Apple's is doing with Android. And for any task with WP7, you have to have propitiatory applications which're Microsoft, Apple, Android, and WP7 (whatever that is) are all off-topic. The debian-project list is about the Debian Project. You may hate technology companies that are not aligned with Debian in some way, and that's fine. You might be morally offended that some company has a lust for money and power, and that's fine too. But it has nothing to do with what we do here. Please take it elsewhere. Whoever you are. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120105100348.ga12...@p12n.org
Suggestion: *Debian brochures [Was: 1 year release good enough]
one of the possible ways for the project to efficiently utilize its booth space at the conferences is to prepare informative (and hopefully catchy) fliers which would highlight different aspects of Debian project, showing its versatility and spread. E.g. for our (Neuro)Debian booths at neuroscience conferences we prepared a tri-fold with information about Debian on one side and about NeuroDebian on another: http://neuro.debian.net/_files/brochure_debian-neurodebian.pdf and sources under our neurodebian repository http://git.debian.org/?p=pkg-exppsy/neurodebian.git artwork/brochure Then for the last appearance, since we are primarily a Python shop we cooked similar flier on Python projects in neuroscience: http://neuro.debian.net/_files/nipy-handout.pdf sources http://github.com/nipy/nipy-artwork And I must say that was very useful -- both fliers provided us great 'cheat sheets' for many visitors asking particular questions. Now we could answer them in hardcopy by highlighting the corresponding portions of the fliers and giving them out. Cons: since we printed them ourselves (on a nice glossy paper) -- folding them was real fun. I think if we had a portfolio of similar handouts covering different aspects of Debian (different teams, projects, derivatives front-desk, etc), it would be very useful for anyone hosting Debian booth and to raise awareness about Debian by posting them on some physical bulletin boards (like we have done in our department). Cheers, On Wed, 04 Jan 2012, Paul Wise wrote: On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 11:47 PM, Andreas Tille wrote: The Fedora Medical guy mentioned that there is a lack of management work. And I can confirm that this is perfectly what I'm observing in several Debian internal projects. To boil it down to some specific projects I have observed in the last time: Debian Games, Debian Multimedia, Debian GIS and Debian Enterprise - all these projects (while potentially targeting at a much larger user base than Debian Med) are lacking what I would call project management in the sense that people claim to be busy enough with packaging and do not have time for other things (like talking to people - upstream and users, telling them how to become involved and setting specific standards and goals). In the Debian Games team we have been working on this and are making a small amount of progress. In particular we are having semi-regular meetings, the most recent ones have all been organised by new team members. Our meetings procedures are documented here, I would encourage other teams to take a look and adopt the parts that make sense: http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Meetings We are also hoping to start some work parties soon: http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Parties I definitely agree that we need to do more and that this is a general problem in Debian that needs work. -- =--= Keep in touch www.onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120105173338.gr16...@onerussian.com
Re: Suggestion: *Debian brochures [Was: 1 year release good enough]
On 5 January 2012 18:33, Yaroslav Halchenko y...@debian.org wrote: one of the possible ways for the project to efficiently utilize its booth space at the conferences is to prepare informative (and hopefully catchy) fliers which would highlight different aspects of Debian project, showing its versatility and spread. (...) I fully agree. You might not be aware of it, but this is described in the Events page at http://www.debian.org/events/material#flyers. Please note also that there is a debian-lfyers project at Alioth: http://debian-flyers.alioth.debian.org/ E.g. for our (Neuro)Debian booths at neuroscience conferences we prepared a tri-fold with information about Debian on one side and about NeuroDebian on another: (...) It would be great if you could integrate this into the debian-flyers project so that people looking for flyers will find yours there too. Best regards Javier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAB9B7UsSYcg=enumo26a07k8nt1xsptuaulspuxweaxyr8j...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Suggestion: *Debian brochures [Was: 1 year release good enough]
On Thu, 05 Jan 2012, Javier Fernandez-Sanguino wrote: I fully agree. You might not be aware of it, but this is described in the Events page at http://www.debian.org/events/material#flyers. Please note also that there is a debian-lfyers project at Alioth: http://debian-flyers.alioth.debian.org/ Whenever we were initiating this little project we researched available ones, but they all were too dusty iirc. I see now some recent (February 2011) activity in debian-fliers' CVS, so great to see it going -- so we have +1 ;) E.g. for our (Neuro)Debian booths at neuroscience conferences we prepared a tri-fold with information about Debian on one side and about NeuroDebian on another: (...) It would be great if you could integrate this into the debian-flyers project so that people looking for flyers will find yours there too. yeap -- totally reasonable -- whenever we find some time, we should finalize this... it is sad that http://www.debian.org/events/material#flyers is not a wiki so entry-barrier to add mentioning of our flier is a bit too high for me to take care about it now ;) may be we should start a wiki page to collaborate on this aspect before we could push it to w.d.o... sounds reasonable? -- =--= Keep in touch www.onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120105174750.gt16...@onerussian.com
Re: Suggestion: *Debian brochures [Was: 1 year release good enough]
On 5 January 2012 18:47, Yaroslav Halchenko y...@debian.org wrote: may be we should start a wiki page to collaborate on this aspect before we could push it to w.d.o... sounds reasonable? Yes, sounds reasonable. But we usually just point from w.d.o to the wiki instead of replicating (and later synchronising) content. Feel free to start up a wiki page at w.d.o and ask debian-www to point to it from the flyers page :) Regards Javier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAB9B7UsTtuTXcC6SU9y7WZ8g=pv4sw8sf4hnpz4gotqkue-...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Suggestion: *Debian brochures [Was: 1 year release good enough]
On Thu, Jan 05, 2012 at 12:47:50PM -0500, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote:
yeap -- totally reasonable -- whenever we find some time, we
should finalize this... it is sad that
http://www.debian.org/events/material#flyers
is not a wiki so entry-barrier to add mentioning of our flier is a bit
too high for me to take care about it now ;)
wll, it's just one click away: request to join button at
https://alioth.debian.org/projects/webwml/ :-)
(yes, I do understand what you meant above, but it seemed like a good
occasion to mention this. I'm sure the -www people welcome
contributions!)
While we are at it: the events team has been working since a while on
the idea of a debian events box that should also contain pre-printed
fliers, with some good progress. Unfortunately, it is not finalized
yet, but if in the mean time people need resources to prepare fliers of
other booth materials, I'll be happy to grant them.
Cheers.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences .. http://upsilon.cc/zack .. . . o
Debian Project Leader... @zack on identi.ca ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »
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Re: 1 year release good enough.
Hello everybody dE . wrote: GNU is a wildebeest which's vulnerable to Lions (MS), and sometimes leopards (Apple), and Debian is one of the wildebeests. It has to be defended by companies supporting it, and they have to attempt destroy the Microsoft ecosystem the same way Microsoft does... otherwise the wildebeest will be extinct. Thus, it's critical to hate and make people hate Microsoft and dive into politics in order to make opensource desktops successful. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Rather, I personally have a more aggressive philosophy. I despise and loathe Microsoft and Apple, (and Oracle as well, not previously mentioned in this thread), but I *do not hate* them. Hate is an ultimate evil, practiced by the likes of Hitler and others. It is not possible to defeat evil, using evil practices. I *choose* not to sink to the level of the practitioners of evil. We couldn't have stopped WW2 without the atomic bomb Wrong. Japan would have been defeated in only a few weeks more of conventional warfare. By the way, who are you, dE? Are you afraid to stand up and be counted for your opinions? Regards Jack Jack Warkentin, phone 902-404-0457, email jw...@bellaliant.net 39 Inverness Avenue, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada, B3P 1X6 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f049a09.3080...@bellaliant.net
Re: 1 year release good enough.
dE . wrote: Thus, it's critical to hate and make people hate Microsoft and dive into politics in order to make opensource desktops successful. No. Hate is definitively the wrong way to propagate FLOSS. It should be a together, not an against each other. (Counts for the the big companies, too, though. IMHO parts of Microsoft and Apple are on the right way already.) Rather, I personally have a more aggressive philosophy. Obviously. There's enough aggression on Debian's mailing lists already. We surely don't need more of it, more to the opposite. Regards, Axel -- ,''`. | Axel Beckert a...@debian.org, http://people.debian.org/~abe/ : :' : | Debian Developer, ftp.ch.debian.org Admin `. `' | 1024D: F067 EA27 26B9 C3FC 1486 202E C09E 1D89 9593 0EDE `-| 4096R: 2517 B724 C5F6 CA99 5329 6E61 2FF9 CD59 6126 16B5 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120103151039.gy20...@sym.noone.org
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On Jan 3, 2012, at 16:10, Axel Beckert wrote: dE . wrote: Thus, it's critical to hate and make people hate Microsoft and dive into politics in order to make opensource desktops successful. No. Hate is definitively the wrong way to propagate FLOSS. I agree. Hate is counter-productive. Rather, I personally have a more aggressive philosophy. Obviously. There's enough aggression on Debian's mailing lists already. We surely don't need more of it, more to the opposite. +1 Jeremiah -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/c9cb2efc-cbc1-41c1-ae24-4d00456fc...@jeremiahfoster.com
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On Sun, Jan 01, 2012 at 01:40:36PM -0500, Yaroslav Halchenko wrote: Well put Russ!!! Fully ACK. Relative percentage is not that important as long as absolute number is positive, which means that fun goes on and our efforts are of benefit ;) And depending on the audience (field of endeavor, habbits etc) statistics might vary [e.g. 1] ;-) [1] http://neuro.debian.net/blog/2011/2011-06-27_software_survey.html I can perfectly confirm this. From a Debian Med perspective I can say that while there are some comparable initiatives in Fedora and SuSE these do not really fly. Today I had a discussion with a Fedora GSoC student who sees his work in danger of becoming orphaned because nobody really cares about his packages of medical software and also SuSE medical seems to make more annoucements rather than packaging work. So my idea is (and sorry for repeating myself over and over) that we can perfectly dart into specific fields because we are involving experts in those fields. The Fedora Medical guy mentioned that there is a lack of management work. And I can confirm that this is perfectly what I'm observing in several Debian internal projects. To boil it down to some specific projects I have observed in the last time: Debian Games, Debian Multimedia, Debian GIS and Debian Enterprise - all these projects (while potentially targeting at a much larger user base than Debian Med) are lacking what I would call project management in the sense that people claim to be busy enough with packaging and do not have time for other things (like talking to people - upstream and users, telling them how to become involved and setting specific standards and goals). I'm pretty sure that if I would have kept on packaging only from the beginning Debian Med would have way less than 1/3 of its current number of packages, way less than 1/3 of ist current number of active team members and way less of users. Finally it is fun to work in a healthy team. So please keep in mind that enhancing Debian is not only adding packages to a pool but also how to form strong teams around a set of packages to make the packaging sustainable. I'm quite convinced that this strategy will lead to an increasing number of users and that it is even more important than the frequency of releases. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120103154737.gd6...@an3as.eu
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 03:35:51 +0530, dE . de.tec...@gmail.com wrote: ... GNU is a wildebeest which's vulnerable to Lions (MS), and sometimes leopards (Apple), and Debian is one of the wildebeests. Vulnerable, how? Microsoft put quite some effort into trying to stamp out free software, and that was Microsoft in its prime -- and they failed. If MS are Lions, and Apple are leopards, then I'd say Free Software is Fungus -- capable of taking their excrement and turning it into something useful, while otherwise growing at it's own pace, largely indifferent to the activities of the live-fast die-young corporations. Admittedly, Microsoft are now trying to use the patent system as fungicide, but I think the wider population are waking up to just how toxic that stuff is for everyone, especially when misused. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd.http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87vcos22jo@poker.hands.com
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On 01/03/12 20:40, Axel Beckert wrote: dE . wrote: Thus, it's critical to hate and make people hate Microsoft and dive into politics in order to make opensource desktops successful. No. Hate is definitively the wrong way to propagate FLOSS. It should be a together, not an against each other. (Counts for the the big companies, too, though. IMHO parts of Microsoft and Apple are on the right way already.) Look what Microsoft and Apple's is doing with Android. And for any task with WP7, you have to have propitiatory applications which're only available for mac/Win to do even the simplest task with the phones. And this's just 1 e.g.; look at their site, they're always doing .NET and Sliverlight to break compatibility. Not the mention the 6 software patents... Do you call that the right track? Your philosophy may be good for you all but I tend to deal them with more aggression to combat their lust for money and power. We couldn't have stopped WW2 without the atomic bomb, so peace is not always the right way and that's exactly why they're so successful. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f03a8fd@gmail.com
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On 01/01/12 23:58, Russ Allbery wrote: dE .de.tec...@gmail.com writes: http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2011-10/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm You might have 60% usage of Debian but for the world it's 0.02%. I've never been fond of putting too much weight on this sort of statistic. One of the delightful things about Debian is that the project consists of a group of people who are working together to create something that, primarily, we all want to use. Making it usable for everyone else as well is, of course, a wonderful goal and something that many of us care a lot about. But I think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that world-wide adoption on the order of Windows is not a requirement for the Debian project to be a success. Debian is successful every time I boot a system and it's running Debian, every time Debian solves my problems, every time I can fix something I ran into because it's Debian and I can help make it better. It's *fun* if I can get more people to use Debian, and it's important to have an influx of new blood and new ideas to keep Debian fresh and responsive, but that's about *keeping* Debian successful, not about *making* Debian successful. If we have enough developers to maintain and improve Debian even at the rate that we're maintaining and improving Debian today, to me that's a success, and I don't really care whether that number ever moves off of 0.02%. One of the great things about free software is that we're not a business: we don't live or die by market share, we aren't going to get bought out by someone else if we don't become a big enough fish, and we don't have to grow 10% a year or implode. It would certainly be *nice* to attract more people and more users and improve even faster, and I certainly wouldn't want to stand in the way of that, but it's not part of my metric of success. GNU is a wildebeest which's vulnerable to Lions (MS), and sometimes leopards (Apple), and Debian is one of the wildebeests. It has to be defended by companies supporting it, and they have to attempt destroy the Microsoft ecosystem the same way Microsoft does... otherwise the wildebeest will be extinct. Thus, it's critical to hate and make people hate Microsoft and dive into politics in order to make opensource desktops successful. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. Rather, I personally have a more aggressive philosophy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f022a3f.2000...@gmail.com
1 year release good enough.
Hi. I was wondering about the 2 year release cycle of Debian and it's adaptability on the Desktops. You have to admit that Debian is not used used much on the Desktops -- it appears to be more popular for servers; and the 2 year release cycle is good for servers; increasing the release cycles to a higher amount is also not bad when it comes to servers. Cause servers don't have to care much about hardware compatibility and changes in protocols/formats following the limited amount of task they do, or they don't require periodic updates to installed software. On the desktops however, in the above context, things differ completely. There's new hardware available always; within a period of 2 years, the generation of hardware changes requiring new drivers. Backports are available, but usually after a timeframe of 1 year, it's unlikely that the backports can be made available for 1.2 year old packages (they require newer build time dependencies). Using apt-pinning, you can upgrade the libraries but these can break stable applications, and often you have to upgrade practically the whole system cause of some dependency (like glibc) being unsatisfied. An upgrade of X drivers is yet more complicated, not to mention backporting ATI and Nvidia drivers become yet more complicated and often impossible in a system more than 1 year old. Apart from hardware compatibility, newer standards (like HTML 5, h265, document formats etc...) are a necessity for a the Desktops but backporing the corresponding program may not be possible because of very old libraries. Further, Desktop systems dont require that much of stability and reliability and even security many times. As a consequence, I suggest a sub-stable branch who's release cycle will be 1 year. As compared to the stable branch, this branch should be more flexible to upgrades and even downgrades -- our objective should be to include the software version in the sub-stable branch which apparently have the least bugs and other critical issues -- for e.g. KDE 4.7 has a lot of new small bugs as compared to 4.6 -- I've to say KDE 4.6 was better in terms of number of bugs, thus the sub-stable branch should continue to include the 4.6 release of KDE. If a major upstream bugs or issue is found in a package, it'll be upgraded. After one year, this sub-stable branch will be declared stable -- thus the stable branch will have even more stability and reliability, it being tested and correspondingly upgrade rigorously while it was in sub-stable. Since there's a new branch, there'll be additional loads on the developers (backports and all that), I suggest the unstable branch be demolished (I'm not clear about it's role though) and increase the migration time from experimental to testing. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4efffb50.3050...@gmail.com
Re: 1 year release good enough.
Le dimanche 01 janvier 2012 à 11:51 +0530, dE . a écrit : I was wondering about the 2 year release cycle of Debian and it's adaptability on the Desktops. This is bullshit. Desktop systems don’t have specific release cycle needs. Also note that the most popular desktop operating system uses a release cycle of 3 years, not 1 year. You have to admit that Debian is not used used much on the Desktops -- it appears to be more popular for servers; and the 2 year release cycle is good for servers; increasing the release cycles to a higher amount is also not bad when it comes to servers. Cause servers don't have to care much about hardware compatibility and changes in protocols/formats following the limited amount of task they do, or they don't require periodic updates to installed software. This is bullshit. Server hardware can change just as much as desktop hardware. Actually, it is becoming more and more the same hardware. On the desktops however, in the above context, things differ completely. There's new hardware available always; within a period of 2 years, the generation of hardware changes requiring new drivers. How is that different from servers? An upgrade of X drivers is yet more complicated, not to mention backporting ATI and Nvidia drivers become yet more complicated and often impossible in a system more than 1 year old. Again more bullshit. In reality, proprietary drivers are much easier to backport, and there’s been significant progress for free drivers too. Apart from hardware compatibility, newer standards (like HTML 5, h265, document formats etc...) are a necessity for a the Desktops but backporing the corresponding program may not be possible because of very old libraries. *Very old*? Please. Further, Desktop systems dont require that much of stability and reliability and even security many times. This is the sentence with the highest bullshit density in your bullshit email. The largest security threat in today’s computing is certainly the terminal, as it is subject to a large amount of communication with a wide range of data of various sensibilities, making it the easiest way to expose sensible data from an open network. Desktops are the devices which require the most security attention, and in the next years this is going to shift to embedded devices as they start accessing an even wider range of data. As a consequence, I suggest a sub-stable branch who's release cycle will be 1 year. As compared to the stable branch, this branch should be more flexible to upgrades and even downgrades -- our objective should be to include the software version in the sub-stable branch which apparently have the least bugs and other critical issues -- for e.g. KDE 4.7 has a lot of new small bugs as compared to 4.6 -- I've to say KDE 4.6 was better in terms of number of bugs, thus the sub-stable branch should continue to include the 4.6 release of KDE. If a major upstream bugs or issue is found in a package, it'll be upgraded. If you knew how our release process worked, you would understand this is bullshit too. Such proposals have been debated again and again over the years, and were never found useful. You are not looking for a distribution for desktops. You are looking for a distribution with the most recent software. There are various devices on which one could need this, including desktops, servers and embedded devices. Usually, you don’t do this on production systems, though - and that includes production desktops. No, I’m not talking about the computer you have at home with only 2 users. Since there's a new branch, there'll be additional loads on the developers (backports and all that), I suggest the unstable branch be demolished (I'm not clear about it's role though) and increase the migration time from experimental to testing. If you don’t even know what unstable is for, what the hell are you babbling about? -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On Sun, 2012-01-01 at 11:51 +0530, dE . wrote: I was wondering about the 2 year release cycle of Debian and it's adaptability on the Desktops. You have to admit that Debian is not used used much on the Desktops -- Really? Of the five systems in my household which could count as desktops (assuming one includes laptops - they're certainly not servers), three of them run Debian (and one of the others doesn't belong to me). Since there's a new branch, there'll be additional loads on the developers (backports and all that), You seem to be assuming that everyone will be happy to take on these additional loads. With both my maintainer and release hats on, I believe you're mistaken in that (and in the need for the proposal in general). However, as has been done more than once in the past, you're free to set up and maintain such a branch and prove to people that it's workable and worthwhile. I suggest the unstable branch be demolished (I'm not clear about it's role though) I'm concerned that someone who doesn't know what the purpose of unstable is should be trying to make far-reaching changes to the way the project works. and increase the migration time from experimental to testing. Right now, there's no migration of packages from experimental to testing. So you certainly couldn't decrease the time... Regards, Adam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1325428498.2980.11.ca...@jacala.jungle.funky-badger.org
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On 01/01/12 18:12, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh wrote: On Sun, 01 Jan 2012, dE . wrote: I was wondering about the 2 year release cycle of Debian and it's adaptability on the Desktops. We cannot do 1 year, it is not enough time to get hard things done (remember: Debian is _very large_), and still freeze for enough time to get things right. 1.5 years is probably doable, maybe. If workload is the issue, then definitely it's not a good idea. You have to admit that Debian is not used used much on the Desktops It is the basis of several widely-used desktop distros, and an important part of Ubuntu. My main issue was the repository, not the PM. -- it appears to be more popular for servers; and the 2 year release cycle is good for servers; increasing the release cycles to a higher The 2 year release cycle is good for _us_ to get it ready for a stable release, it is not that large because of servers at all... On the desktops however, in the above context, things differ completely. There's new hardware available always; within a period of 2 years, We refresh hardware support every year (stable-and-a-half), although to a more limited extent than we do in the testing/unstable distros. Ok, I didn't know that. As a consequence, I suggest a sub-stable branch who's release cycle will be 1 year. As compared to the stable branch, this branch should Maybe you can morpth this to a deep-stable-freeze-like stabilization of key parts of the distro taken from testing and backported to -stable (X.org, kernel, some other stuff) in order to reduce freeze surface, in order to make the stable-and-a-half releases still just as safe, but more useful to the desktop... I think that's a more realistic goal, with better chances of implementation. The key word here is to work with a reduced set of packages that will be allowed large updates and therefore will require the usual extreme amounts of testing we do before a stable release. If I understand this correct, there's not much use of this since the backport branch is always there... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f0035f3.3050...@gmail.com
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On 01/01/12 21:33, Zlatan Todoric wrote: dE, I suggest you to look into Debian CUT project. I believe thats suits your needs if you don't like mixing branches. On the other side - Debian is giant and complex distribution so there must be all branches and a aprox.2 yr release cycle. Zlatan On 1/1/12, dE .de.tec...@gmail.com wrote: Yes -- I understand, thanks. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f003d77.1030...@gmail.com
Re: 1 year release good enough.
Le dimanche 01 janvier 2012 à 16:19 +0530, dE . a écrit : This is bullshit. Desktop systems don’t have specific release cycle needs. Also note that the most popular desktop operating system uses a release cycle of 3 years, not 1 year. You might not have known, but the LTS release is not often used much What LTS release? There’s only one major Windows release every 3 years, and you can’t say these releases aren’t used much. Ok, I'll given e.gs. For starters, try compiling GIT ffmpeg on one of the stable boxes Hay, that's the official ffmpeg way... Why wouldn’t it work? I had no trouble at all backporting libav to stable not long ago. Of course, the fact that libav developers are morons when it comes to releasing doesn’t help, but it’s not related to our release cycle. What about attack surface? Desktops are issues cause most people use Windows, and we ain't talking bullshit OSs here. A server is on day and night increasing the attack surface -- still worst, it has to listen and respond to queries which may be malformed to trigger a vulnerability. But Desktops have file wall installed -- they take no queries. Could you do one thing for me? Just one? Please never, EVER, apply for a job which is even remotely related to computer security. Thank you, and happy year 2012. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: 1 year release good enough.
Hi, On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 15:16, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Le dimanche 01 janvier 2012 à 11:51 +0530, dE . a écrit : Further, Desktop systems dont require that much of stability and reliability and even security many times. This is the sentence with the highest bullshit density in your bullshit email. The largest security threat in today’s computing is certainly the terminal, as it is subject to a large amount of communication with a wide range of data of various sensibilities, making it the easiest way to expose sensible data from an open network. Desktops are the devices which require the most security attention, and in the next years this is going to shift to embedded devices as they start accessing an even wider range of data. I do agree with Josselin in here. How is that Desktops systems don't require that much stability? That's completely false. If you think from the point of view of a user, you should be able to conclude that when someone is using their Desktops and doing an important task for them, they don't want the applications or the system to fail. What I have been seeing, when it comes to changes in the release cycles in Debian, it is that sometimes people who wants to suggest something (as in this case) they actually do not understand correctly how Debian works currently. In any case, it is still important that these kind of discussions arise in certain times (but at least knowing a bit about the release cycles). Regards, -- Muammar El Khatib. Linux user: 403107. GPG Key = 127029F1 http://muammar.me | http://proyectociencia.org ,''`. : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ca+wevrysenjzprlqktfopi2ggrniceuurmfhekswb6fqkkk...@mail.gmail.com
Re: 1 year release good enough.
dE . de.tec...@gmail.com writes: http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2011-10/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm You might have 60% usage of Debian but for the world it's 0.02%. I've never been fond of putting too much weight on this sort of statistic. One of the delightful things about Debian is that the project consists of a group of people who are working together to create something that, primarily, we all want to use. Making it usable for everyone else as well is, of course, a wonderful goal and something that many of us care a lot about. But I think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that world-wide adoption on the order of Windows is not a requirement for the Debian project to be a success. Debian is successful every time I boot a system and it's running Debian, every time Debian solves my problems, every time I can fix something I ran into because it's Debian and I can help make it better. It's *fun* if I can get more people to use Debian, and it's important to have an influx of new blood and new ideas to keep Debian fresh and responsive, but that's about *keeping* Debian successful, not about *making* Debian successful. If we have enough developers to maintain and improve Debian even at the rate that we're maintaining and improving Debian today, to me that's a success, and I don't really care whether that number ever moves off of 0.02%. One of the great things about free software is that we're not a business: we don't live or die by market share, we aren't going to get bought out by someone else if we don't become a big enough fish, and we don't have to grow 10% a year or implode. It would certainly be *nice* to attract more people and more users and improve even faster, and I certainly wouldn't want to stand in the way of that, but it's not part of my metric of success. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87wr9b9t0x@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: 1 year release good enough.
Well put Russ!!! Relative percentage is not that important as long as absolute number is positive, which means that fun goes on and our efforts are of benefit ;) And depending on the audience (field of endeavor, habbits etc) statistics might vary [e.g. 1] ;-) [1] http://neuro.debian.net/blog/2011/2011-06-27_software_survey.html Happy new year On Sun, 01 Jan 2012, Russ Allbery wrote: http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2011-10/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm You might have 60% usage of Debian but for the world it's 0.02%. I've never been fond of putting too much weight on this sort of statistic. One of the delightful things about Debian is that the project consists of a group of people who are working together to create something that, primarily, we all want to use. Making it usable for everyone else as well is, of course, a wonderful goal and something that many of us care a lot about. But I think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that world-wide adoption on the order of Windows is not a requirement for the Debian project to be a success. Debian is successful every time I boot a system and it's running Debian, every time Debian solves my problems, every time I can fix something I ran into because it's Debian and I can help make it better. It's *fun* if I can get more people to use Debian, and it's important to have an influx of new blood and new ideas to keep Debian fresh and responsive, but that's about *keeping* Debian successful, not about *making* Debian successful. If we have enough developers to maintain and improve Debian even at the rate that we're maintaining and improving Debian today, to me that's a success, and I don't really care whether that number ever moves off of 0.02%. One of the great things about free software is that we're not a business: we don't live or die by market share, we aren't going to get bought out by someone else if we don't become a big enough fish, and we don't have to grow 10% a year or implode. It would certainly be *nice* to attract more people and more users and improve even faster, and I certainly wouldn't want to stand in the way of that, but it's not part of my metric of success. -- =--= Keep in touch www.onerussian.com Yaroslav Halchenko www.ohloh.net/accounts/yarikoptic -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120101184036.gb16...@onerussian.com
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On 01/01/2012 07:28 PM, Russ Allbery wrote: dE . de.tec...@gmail.com writes: http://stats.wikimedia.org/archive/squid_reports/2011-10/SquidReportOperatingSystems.htm You might have 60% usage of Debian but for the world it's 0.02%. I've never been fond of putting too much weight on this sort of statistic. One of the delightful things about Debian is that the project consists of a group of people who are working together to create something that, primarily, we all want to use. Making it usable for everyone else as well is, of course, a wonderful goal and something that many of us care a lot about. But I think it's important not to lose sight of the fact that world-wide adoption on the order of Windows is not a requirement for the Debian project to be a success. Debian is successful every time I boot a system and it's running Debian, every time Debian solves my problems, every time I can fix something I ran into because it's Debian and I can help make it better. It's *fun* if I can get more people to use Debian, and it's important to have an influx of new blood and new ideas to keep Debian fresh and responsive, but that's about *keeping* Debian successful, not about *making* Debian successful. If we have enough developers to maintain and improve Debian even at the rate that we're maintaining and improving Debian today, to me that's a success, and I don't really care whether that number ever moves off of 0.02%. One of the great things about free software is that we're not a business: we don't live or die by market share, we aren't going to get bought out by someone else if we don't become a big enough fish, and we don't have to grow 10% a year or implode. It would certainly be *nice* to attract more people and more users and improve even faster, and I certainly wouldn't want to stand in the way of that, but it's not part of my metric of success. This was so nice, I am sure you all liked reading my quote again ;) The very personal/metaphorical successometer of Russ during does not allow any statistics. Anyway, do we have any numbers that are indicative of what we consider successful? What comes to mind are * popcon - the absolute numbers we do not are so much about * popcon.ubuntu.com - the more frequent release cycle variant of us * developer distribution http://www.perrier.eu.org/weblog/2010/08/07#devel-countries-2010 * fresh blood http://wiki.debian.org/DebianMaintainer * the number of blends http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPureBlends And then there is the social side * traveling somewhere meeting other DDs * bringing scientists and techies together No idea how to score anything like that. Well, if I have forgotten about anything ... tell me. Cheers, Steffen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4f00b339.7050...@gmx.de
Re: 1 year release good enough.
On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 1:21 AM, dE . wrote: Hi. I was wondering about the 2 year release cycle of Debian and it's adaptability on the Desktops. If you want something with a faster release cycle, there is always testing, which is updated four times a day. If you want something slightly more stable than that but not on a two-year cycle, there are now (unofficial) monthly snapshot releases too: http://cut.debian.net Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MM_Ox07E7O8TGAm7mS7cuppqieHw1ugBZiPCqQqV=h...@mail.gmail.com
