Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 10:20:37PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: #include hallo.h * Sven Luther [Mon, May 28 2007, 08:23:52PM]: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:16:22PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: cook this story _again_. You may be right, or not, it is just off-topic. And beating dead horses won't make you many friends. Because i am not yet as dead as the horse, and those i used to think as friend have backstabbed me when i was in need. a) you got it wrong, it is you who is beating Am i ? And even if it is so, what other choice did i have ? But seriously, all i have done is writting mails, which everyone can easily ignore or killfill, and most folk are doing just that. On the other hand, i have been removed from the d-i team and lost my svn commit access, i have been banned from uploading .udebs, i have been banned from the lists for 2 months, and suspended from the debian project, and now removed from the kernel team (and partially restored, since i used to be admin, and am not anymore). Sure, i speak out because if not i will only be plainly forgotten, but what other choice do i have ? Tell me, and i will try it out. I have asked for help numerous times, and tried alternative solutions, all to no avail, or to worsened agression against me. b) the world is not black and white. I respect you, but sometimes I think you are wrong and there is no need for further heat when I tell you so. Did i say the world is black and white ? And well, you may sometime think i am wrong, and tell me so, and we can honestly discuss this. In this case though, the other side has not made a single attempt to discuss it with me, but instead went into a campaign of calumny and provocation, and then resorted to (ab)using their technical power or relationship to punish me. Notice the difference. Maybe Bastian had something cruel in mind or maybe not, this just does not matter. The current problem is solved. It's time for you to realize that. I have nothing against Bastian, i don't think he made it out of an evil intent, but the situation is still shitty, and i want it solved. But _HERE_, it is the wrong place for that. You complained about your And where is the right place for it ? I believe the right place is in a RL meeting, and i proposed two such meetings, at FOSDEM and at debconf, and was meet with resounding silence instead. It is not my fault if debian has no way to deal with issues like these, and that i am forced to make a fuss just to not be ignored ? Do you know the number of mails i sent to the DPL (previous one) and to the DAMs (more recently) and got plainly ignored ? Did you see the effort i made on the wiki pages, and what was its result ? account being disabled, the problem was analyzed and you got it back. Partially back, i was admin of the kernel team, and am not anymore. Simple request, simple solution, and we are through with the relevant part. If you feel the strong pressure for cooking the old stuff again, open a separate thread (maybe even on -private). You are joking, right ? You don't remeber that i have been unfairly suspended from debian, and i can't read private ? Maybe we should do a separate thread, but the DPL directly asked me to avoid multiplicating the threads, so ... Furthermore, except the first mail (well 3 or so, but only one lead to such a long thread), all my mails are responses to other people, and i believe in open and transparent discussion. Should i be blamed for it because i discourage the shady dealings others favour ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sven Luther wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 09:31:19PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: You do not need to waste any more words on explaining that my perception is wrong. I got your point already. - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ - Enden er nær: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGW8iHn7DbMsAkQLgRAg7yAJ90qyTPU50A9dRT2NnfkA9H9jFwhQCcDNzy R1sCnLRaBU8LPKbs3yJ4c0g= =IBsx -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 08:30:31AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sven Luther wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 09:31:19PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote: You do not need to waste any more words on explaining that my perception is wrong. I got your point already. - Jonas Then why did you chose to write stuff in the first place, instead of happily ignoring it ? This is the exact example of why things went bad in erkelenz, because you are unable to hear what others have to say, and want to impose your own opinion on others. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is the exact example of why things went bad in erkelenz, because you are unable to hear what others have to say, and want to impose your own opinion on others. And, when it comes to that, you know what you're talking about. JB. -- Julien BLACHE - Debian GNU/Linux Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Public key available on http://www.jblache.org - KeyID: F5D6 5169 GPG Fingerprint : 935A 79F1 C8B3 3521 FD62 7CC7 CD61 4FD7 F5D6 5169 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Tue May 29, 2007 at 11:29:47 +0200, Sven Luther wrote: This is the exact example of why things went bad in erkelenz, because you are unable to hear what others have to say, and want to impose your own opinion on others. Pot. Kettle. Black. Steve -- http://www.steve.org.uk/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Tue, May 29, 2007 at 11:53:07AM +0200, Julien BLACHE wrote: Sven Luther [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is the exact example of why things went bad in erkelenz, because you are unable to hear what others have to say, and want to impose your own opinion on others. And, when it comes to that, you know what you're talking about. Tell me when i did try to impose my opnion on others ? The only thing that you could reproach me, is that i don't stay silent, but i *NEVER* rejected an honest offer to discuss a technical matter or to investigate a bug. See the difference ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 11:45:31PM +0200, Pierre Habouzit [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 11:03:50AM -0600, Wesley J. Landaker wrote: On Sunday 27 May 2007 10:52:49 Mohammed Adnène Trojette wrote: Hi Sven, are you part of an organisation called GNAA? Regardless of how you[1] feel about Sven, can you please stop trolling him? Damn, how fool was I. I was completely under the impression that *he* was the one trolling our lists for months. Makes me think, he can't be alone to generate all that flood, or he uses scripting. Maybe the latter given the very high redundancy of the content, wording and annoyance. dadadodo ? polygen ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Andreas Barth wrote: On Sun, 27 May 2007, Sven Luther wrote: 17:55:11 svenl waldi: do you know who removed me from the kernel alioth team ? 17:57:44 waldi nope No answer yet, and : 18:34:59 sgran I am not going to answer questions about who it was, that will need to be argued about on a different IRC channel 18:49:33 sgran I have already /msg'ed the person responsible, and told them to let you know it was them 18:49:47 sgran but they say they don't remember doing it Both logs are related. Waldi removed you from the kernel team at the beginning of the month (9th May) together with two other persons: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm rather shocked that waldi removed people from commit access without telling them - and even worse, without being able to remember it about 14 days later. I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. The logs show that he knew about it yeasterday afternoon, and the access has not yet been re-established. Furthermore, there are other folk in the kernel team who have been less active than me, and are still there. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. Bastian -- Too much of anything, even love, isn't necessarily a good thing. -- Kirk, The Trouble with Tribbles, stardate 4525.6 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Bastian Blank wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. So apparently it was an accident. Thus, mind adding svenl back to correct the mistake? Regards, Joey -- It's practically impossible to look at a penguin and feel angry. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
* Bastian Blank ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 11:18]: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. In that case, why isn't svenl added back by you if we know now that you removed him? It really seems to me you shouldn't have admin privileges on the kernel svn if you cannot properly handle them. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:17:39AM +0200, Bastian Blank wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. Fine, so can you reactivate my access ? Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
* Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 12:14]: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 11:17:39AM +0200, Bastian Blank wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:38:24AM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: I can understand the latter. However, maybe it was just a mistake and waldi didn't want to remove Sven but accidently removed one line too much or something? He'll probably speak up and explain things. I already said that I can't remember. I know there was something about dilinger and wli but not more. Fine, so can you reactivate my access ? It seems that waldi doesn't want to do it, and also not to give any statement that he wanted to kick you out. I consider this a very bad behaviour, at least. And not acceptable. We had just an IRC-discussion (in German): 12:15 Ganneff waldi: wie siehts aus mit svenl wieder zum alioth kernel zuzufügen nachdem er da wohl ungeplant flog? 12:15 waldi Ganneff: es hat eigentlich keiner lust sich mit ihm abzugeben. ein teil ignoriert ihn komplett 12:15 aba waldi: *du* hast ihn entfernt. Dann bist Du auch fürs aufräumen zuständig. 12:16 Ganneff waldi: dann schreib ihm entweder sowas als entscheidung vom kernel team wenns die gibt oder füg ihn wieder zu. aber ignorieren ist nix gut. 12:16 aba waldi: entweder sagst du offiziell, das du ihn draußen haben willst. Oder du fügst ihn wieder hinzu. 12:17 Ganneff waldi: und es heisst svn zufügen, das muss nit unbedingt wieder admin sein. solang er dran arbeiten kann - oder alternativ halt weiss dass es nix wird weil $grund. 12:21 Ganneff waldi: so? 12:27 Ganneff waldi: im moment siehts eher so aus dass du deinen access zu kernel (zumindest admin) verlieren solltest, nicht sven. (and no answer from waldi up to now) As you can see, there is no need for you to escalate it - other people will take care of that. :) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
* Andreas Barth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 12:28]: It seems that waldi doesn't want to do it, and also not to give any statement that he wanted to kick you out. I consider this a very bad behaviour, at least. And not acceptable. After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 12:41:59PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Andreas Barth ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 12:28]: It seems that waldi doesn't want to do it, and also not to give any statement that he wanted to kick you out. I consider this a very bad behaviour, at least. And not acceptable. After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. It is not acceptable that debian deals in mafioso politics, and the DAMs, by knowingly hiding most of the evidence, have actively participated in it. Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Sven Luther wrote: After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. Oh come on Sven! This thread was about the accidential removal of your kernel team commit access. It has been restored since them. The problem is fixed. Tell you what, if you continue trolling and ranting here, sooner or later your commit access will be removed *on purpose* with no way for you to get it back. This is not a threat but a warning. We know that you're not happy with the situation, but continueing to bring it up will not solve it either. Please don't reply and work on important things instead. Regards, Joey -- It's practically impossible to look at a penguin and feel angry. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
* Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 13:23]: [...] Sven, this whole thread is about that your commit access to the kernel svn repro was revoked without anyone telling you. What then happened is that the alioth admins published that waldi revoked the access, waldi refused to comment to it, and was finally beaten by Ganneff and me to reenable your access. So, you see, two people jumped up to help you to get your access back, and were successful. I can understand that you are annoyed/angry at waldi now, but please consider that some people in Debian did efforts to help you to have your access restored. (And BTW, I still think that waldi needs to send a public apology for removing your access - as far as I can see it, it really seems to me waldi shouldn't have admin access because his behaviour is not how any admin should behave. But please stop muddling everything together. Debian as a project is definitly not responsible for waldis bad behaviour - and there is no correlation between waldis bad behaviour and anything else, waldi is behaving bad to almost all and not only to you.) Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 07:01:38PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: For the record, i did ask on #debian-kernel, and got no reply, and when asked, Bastian Blank did say he didn't know who did it, and Stephan Gran, and Roland Mas, who are admining alioth, know, but don't want to say. Hrm, last time you silently removed somebody from the kernel team (Jonas), people were able to find out it was you in the end. Maybe you can use the same technique now, or maybe that feature got removed/deactivated in newer gforge versions. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:03:29PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. Oh come on Sven! This thread was about the accidential removal of your kernel team commit access. It has been restored since them. The problem is fixed. The wider problem has been there since marsch last year or so, and it was never fixed. Tell you what, if you continue trolling and ranting here, sooner or later your commit access will be removed *on purpose* with no way for you to get it back. This is not a threat but a warning. Yeah, right, is it so difficult to solve this as it should have been ? Do you really believe there is any valid justification to having me suspended for a year despite the 70:7 strong opposition of the DDs who where asked to express themselves ? What did it gain, and what was the reason that made the DAMs decide this way ? Appart that the expulsers provided more hatefull and agressive quotes than the those opposing the expulsion, and the DAMs chose to put them in value. Do you believe it was correct for the expulsers to ask for my expulsion on the day after i proposed my DPL candidacy, while i had not posted a single post on the debian lists for over a month ? And that the DAMs chose to hide this for whatevr obscure reason ? We know that you're not happy with the situation, but continueing to bring it up will not solve it either. Please don't reply and work on important things instead. Yeah, right, which is what i have been trying to do since over a year, first i worked, and provided over 30 or so patches to d-i despite the d-i access removal, just to get bashed in half the report by a clueless frans who jumped on every little excuse to explode, and finally made some under-hand manipulation with the ftp-masters to remove my upload right of the .udebs. This is what i did when i wrote the wiki page : http://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/FransPopAndOthersVs%2eSvenLutherIssue and got FUCK YOU and the biggest load of self-satisfied and self-centered crap I've ever seen from frans, and abuse from geert and holger (which they removed in shame later on), and blackmail of joeyh in return. This is what i did in february, organizing hardware for the debian booth, passing time to prepare the ps3 debian install, on the ps3 that geert uutyeroven had arranged, and geert stappers or holger found the occasion to bash me when i once posted to the list by mistake while searching for a TV set. I did this while those hateful expulsers secretely where scheming to restart the expulsion procedure, while on saturday evening the DAMs had sent me a mail which got eaten by the debian.org mail greylisting or whatever, and while i spoke to James Troup on sunday afternoon, after having hold a discussion about the future possibilities of the kernel developments, of which nobody from the d-i team assisted except holger, who was forced to film, and frans passed by me without returning my greeting afterward. I did this while the expulsion process was underway and posted only few select mails, and even was mostly silent for the week or two that followed the end of the support mail period, waiting for the DAMs to decide in frustration and trauma, while Frans started agressing me on the lists again. I was doing this when i discovered this latest case. So, for me, now, in debian, the most important thing, is that this continuous agression are stopped, that each party in this is blamed accordying to their responsabilities, in a fair and equitable way, and that the one-sided punishment are lifted, and that we are all allowed to work on the parts of debian that we like and code all happily forever after. Can you tell me a single reason why this should not happen ? Can you tell me a single reason that justifies the DAMs decision to act as they did, and which can be named without shame (i know that one reason of the decision is the fact that the other party threatened to stop all d-i related work if they didn't get their way, just as Joey Hess has written on the wiki and that this would have caused a problem so near the etch release, i also know that Joerg Jaspert (and others) heavily disliked Anthony Towns, and thus it could justify the manipulation of the dates of the expulsers mail, to make it appear as if this was Anthony's action, but these are hardly noble reasons we can approve of, don't we) ? Joey, if you see this kind of attitude in real life, while you really stand by, and counsel the victim to support everything and be silent, especially as you being a pillar of the community, can act to change it ? This is not some unnamed oppression by a state or power we have no access too, this is unfairness,
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:33:28PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Sven Luther ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070528 13:23]: [...] Sven, this whole thread is about that your commit access to the kernel This whole thread is about me being stopped from doing meaningful debian technical contribution and punished for not being respectful enough to frans and not meekly having bowed under the repeated punishment which they have dealt to me in order to get me silenced. svn repro was revoked without anyone telling you. What then happened is that the alioth admins published that waldi revoked the access, waldi refused to comment to it, and was finally beaten by Ganneff and me to reenable your access. So, you see, two people jumped up to help you to get your access back, and were successful. Sure, but it is an exact reproduction of what happened last year, when i discovered after coming back to debian work after my mothers funeral, that frans had revoked my d-i svn access. I can understand that you are annoyed/angry at waldi now, but please No, i am not angry at Bastian. Bastian is a good guy, if a bit blunt in his communication. I am angry at Debian, who has handled me unfairly (to use a nice word for it), and have left a select few go into a calumniation and provocation campaign against looking the other way. I am angry at the DAMs for having used the expulsion request in their private warfar against Anthony Towns, i am angry at all DDs because nobody contested the DAMs decision, and thus silently accepted another level of escalation of something that if you think of it, you would never have accepted in any RL condition. consider that some people in Debian did efforts to help you to have your access restored. (And BTW, I still think that waldi needs to send a public apology for removing your access - as far as I can see it, it really seems to me waldi shouldn't have admin access because his behaviour is not how any admin should behave. But please stop muddling everything together. Debian as a project is definitly not responsible for waldis bad behaviour - and there is no correlation between waldis bad behaviour and anything else, waldi is behaving bad to almost all and not only to you.) No, Debian needs to send me a public apology for how it has handled me since over a year, i have little hope that those who where the worst agressors will ever have enough honour and dignity to recognize their part of fault, but the debian project as a whole owes me an apology of how i was handled, and Debian owes me a lifting of all the punishments it has unfairly submitted to me. You all know me, you all know what entusiast and time i devoted to debian, and what i have achieved all over the almost 9 years since i became DD. Everyone who meets me in RL will tell you that i am a nice guy, always helpful and friendly. Is there any justification of the kind of harrasment i have been under since over a year, and any excuse for Debian allowing this to happen ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 05:04:49PM +0200, Michael Banck wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 07:01:38PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: For the record, i did ask on #debian-kernel, and got no reply, and when asked, Bastian Blank did say he didn't know who did it, and Stephan Gran, and Roland Mas, who are admining alioth, know, but don't want to say. Hrm, last time you silently removed somebody from the kernel team (Jonas), people were able to find out it was you in the end. Maybe you can use the same technique now, or maybe that feature got removed/deactivated in newer gforge versions. Possibly, how could i know. Still if this was still the case, there is really no justification that Stephen didn't tell me as he knew about it. Notice also that the DAMs in january, when they called me, said i have those expulsion request in my mailbox, didn't tell me who it was, or the reason they invoked for it. Notice that when the mess with Frans started, i was never told until month later what the d-i folk really reproached to me, until someday Anthony told me that the real problem was that Frans felt i didn't respect him enough. Notice, how in all this, instead of doing the managerial correct thing to do, and face the issue and solve it, one way or another, it was handled in secrecy, and behind the back shadowy dealings and whatever not. A bit of courage, honestity and straigthforwardness would have solved this whole mess before it had a chance to happen, over a year ago. Do we really wish to continue this for another year, just so that they reask for my expulsion in marsch next year, just before the suspension is over ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Sven, stop it already! We've seen this several times already. You're not bringing up anything new. You're not helping yourself if you continue. Regards, Joey -- It's practically impossible to look at a penguin and feel angry. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 05:40:26PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven, stop it already! why should i ? The times i stopped, i got punished worse without provocation ? We've seen this several times already. Yes, so, what ? I have seen that if i don't make a fuss over this, everyone is pretty happy to let things slide into forgoteness. Never has me being silent helped in any way. You're not bringing up anything new. And i will repeat it as long as people try to ignore me, and until Debian stands up and act in a dign and honourable way in this. You're not helping yourself if you continue. You mean, i am not being meekly silent and accept my fate, right ? Like said, i was silent for longer periods in the past, and it earned me only repeated agression, so no, i will not be silent, and if you guys take it further, and try to censor me on the lists like it was tried, i guess there are other forums where i could export this mess. Why can't you guys understand how easy it would be to solve this ? Why do you think i proposed an in-person meeting at FOSDEM, and why do you think i spoke with Christian Perrier at solution linux in paris, asking him to help prepare such a in-person meeting at FOSDEM. Why do you think i held a technical discussion meeting at FOSDEM over the kernel, so the d-i folk could voice their critics, and we could reconcile all the difference of opinions, and chose the best technical solution for lenny, now, early in the development process ? Why do you think i wrote that positive wiki page, and called for reconciliation ? These are all things i expected from the DPL last year, when *I* went to him for a mediation. So, yes, i am angry and hurt, but i am rightfully angered, and i will not be silenced, except if someone decide to send some goons after me to empty some rounds of amunition into me. Frankly, all those years back, when i meet you in oldenburg, if i had known what a vampirizing beast debian was, and how the DDs would stand aside while a bunch of power-hungry assholes where going on a systematic campaign to hurt me, i would have gone away running, and not sacrificed so much of my time and work to debian. And you ask me to be silent ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Sven Luther wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:03:29PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. Oh come on Sven! This thread was about the accidential removal of your kernel team commit access. It has been restored since them. The problem is fixed. The wider problem has been there since marsch last year or so, and it was never fixed. And I am beginning to wonder if it ever can be fixed! ...snip... So, what will be done to solve this issue, or should it be left open like a bleeding wound to fester and worsen so much longer ? Isn't it time to solve this in a fair and human way, like it should have been done last year ? And no, you cannot blame Anthony Towns for all the evil this time around. It seems to me that there is plenty of blame to go around. I accept my fair share for everything I have written that has just prolonged the debate. But when a simple accident (removal of access) blows up into a rehash of all the accusations that should have died long ago, it looks like Sven will never let go of this issue. I do not mean to troll, but I do have a serious rhetorical question I would like you to consider. Sven has said It is not enough. So, what is enough? I do not see total abdication as a viable option. It may take two to argue, but one can rehash previous disagreements endlessly. Richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, 28 May 2007, Michael Banck wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 07:01:38PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: For the record, i did ask on #debian-kernel, and got no reply, and when asked, Bastian Blank did say he didn't know who did it, and Stephan Gran, and Roland Mas, who are admining alioth, know, but don't want to say. Hrm, last time you silently removed somebody from the kernel team (Jonas), people were able to find out it was you in the end. Maybe you can use the same technique now, or maybe that feature got removed/deactivated in newer gforge versions. This feature is still available and has always been restricted to project admins. Go to the administration page of the project and click on the link Project history. In other words, all admins of the Alioth kernel project (waldi included) could have find out that waldi removed Sven from the project. In any case, this issue is closed now. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 10:14:42AM -0700, Richard Hecker wrote: Sven Luther wrote: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 01:03:29PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: After some more pressure on IRC, your commit access has been restored. It is not enough, i want the suspension revoked, since it was a stupid decision, which has achieved nothing except worsen the situation, and was taken contrary to the DAMs procedure, and in a shady and mysterious way. Oh come on Sven! This thread was about the accidential removal of your kernel team commit access. It has been restored since them. The problem is fixed. The wider problem has been there since marsch last year or so, and it was never fixed. And I am beginning to wonder if it ever can be fixed! ...snip... So, what will be done to solve this issue, or should it be left open like a bleeding wound to fester and worsen so much longer ? Isn't it time to solve this in a fair and human way, like it should have been done last year ? And no, you cannot blame Anthony Towns for all the evil this time around. It seems to me that there is plenty of blame to go around. I accept my fair share for everything I have written that has just prolonged the debate. But when a simple accident (removal of access) blows up into a rehash of all the accusations that should have died long ago, it looks like Sven will never let go of this issue. Yes, that is the problem, people are waiting for me to let go of the issue, and make as if nothing, stay humbly back, and in a year come back, as a sub-DD with always the threat that people will again hurt me or try to expulse me or whatever. I do not mean to troll, but I do have a serious rhetorical question I would like you to consider. Sven has said It is not enough. So, what is enough? I do not see total abdication as a viable option. It may take two to argue, but one can rehash previous disagreements endlessly. Well, the solution is easy enough. Debian says : In the lamentable incident involving sven, and a handful of persons, both parties share the responsability. The debian project upto now chose to fully side with one party and unfairly punish the other. This is not an acceptable way to handle such a problem, the debian project presents his apologies to Sven for the one-sidedness of its handling of this case, and accepts the apologies of Sven for the numerous rehashing he was forced to make of this issue. The Debian project furthermore commends Sven for the tentative of reconciliation he has made, and notes that the other party of this dispute was fully uninterested in resolving the issue. All the unfair sactions are lifted, the d-i team choses to not forget the old grudges, and will continue to stop Sven from working on d-i, which is an attitude to be frowned upon, but so be it. To which i respond something along the lines of : I truefully regret that it took so long to get a fair resolution of this conflict, and that the d-i leadership rejected my repeated offers of conciliation, as well as the proposal of an in-RL meeting at FOSDEM. I will not pursue this issue, and work outside of the d-i framework for the part of the d-i related work i do. I sincerely regret that i had to write so many mails, and thus have bothered so many of the DDs, and sincerely present my apologies for this, but i saw no other way out, and even asking for help, and trying alternatives like the wiki pages didn't help. From now on i will makes amends, and go back to contributing positive technical stuff, and stop being a nuissance. Everyone is happy, except those few who can't feel satisfied without full bloody victory and will never recognize that just maybe they have some part of responsability in this, but i guess everyone will have only pity and contempt for those, and not allow them to hurt the project and fellow DDs like they did in the future, and everyone will go back to happily coding ever after. Easy, isn't it, and an honourable and honest thing to do. Why is it so easy ? And why do so many feel that the only response to this is hate and rejection, and (ab)use of force and power to solve this ? It all could have been solved a year ago, if there was a real will for it. I know i showed such a will, but it was not matched by the other side. As you say, it takes two to argue, but it also takes two for reconciliation ... Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
#include hallo.h * Sven Luther [Mon, May 28 2007, 06:00:36PM]: You're not bringing up anything new. And i will repeat it as long as people try to ignore me, and until Debian stands up and act in a dign and honourable way in this. You're not helping yourself if you continue. You mean, i am not being meekly silent and accept my fate, right ? Like Sven, come on. This is not the right time and not the right place to cook this story _again_. You may be right, or not, it is just off-topic. And beating dead horses won't make you many friends. Maybe Bastian had something cruel in mind or maybe not, this just does not matter. The current problem is solved. It's time for you to realize that. Eduard. -- Jedes Nachdenken über gutes oder schlechtes Benehmen zeugt von einem Stillstand der geistigen Entwicklung. -- Oscar Wilde -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:16:22PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: #include hallo.h * Sven Luther [Mon, May 28 2007, 06:00:36PM]: You're not bringing up anything new. And i will repeat it as long as people try to ignore me, and until Debian stands up and act in a dign and honourable way in this. You're not helping yourself if you continue. You mean, i am not being meekly silent and accept my fate, right ? Like Sven, come on. This is not the right time and not the right place to When is the right time and the right place ? It has been over a year not being the right time and the right place ... cook this story _again_. You may be right, or not, it is just off-topic. And beating dead horses won't make you many friends. Because i am not yet as dead as the horse, and those i used to think as friend have backstabbed me when i was in need. Maybe Bastian had something cruel in mind or maybe not, this just does not matter. The current problem is solved. It's time for you to realize that. I have nothing against Bastian, i don't think he made it out of an evil intent, but the situation is still shitty, and i want it solved. If Debian has not insisted in punishing me and hurting me for over a year now, this would not have been a problem, but seeing as this is an exact mirror of what frans and the d-i leadership did back then, and which caused pain and suffering to everyone involved as well as to innocent bystanders, ... Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
#include hallo.h * Sven Luther [Mon, May 28 2007, 08:23:52PM]: On Mon, May 28, 2007 at 08:16:22PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote: cook this story _again_. You may be right, or not, it is just off-topic. And beating dead horses won't make you many friends. Because i am not yet as dead as the horse, and those i used to think as friend have backstabbed me when i was in need. a) you got it wrong, it is you who is beating b) the world is not black and white. I respect you, but sometimes I think you are wrong and there is no need for further heat when I tell you so. Maybe Bastian had something cruel in mind or maybe not, this just does not matter. The current problem is solved. It's time for you to realize that. I have nothing against Bastian, i don't think he made it out of an evil intent, but the situation is still shitty, and i want it solved. But _HERE_, it is the wrong place for that. You complained about your account being disabled, the problem was analyzed and you got it back. Simple request, simple solution, and we are through with the relevant part. If you feel the strong pressure for cooking the old stuff again, open a separate thread (maybe even on -private). Eduard. -- Naja, Garbage Collector eben. Holt den Müll sogar vom Himmel. (Heise Trollforum über Java in der Flugzeugsteuerung) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Another level of agression ?
Hi all, Well, in the ever continuing witch hunt against me, i just noticed, while i was working on a patch fix for the debian kernel, that i have been removed from the alioth kernel team. There was nothing in the judgement of the DAMs which mandated this, and this is again the repetition of what has been happening since all this time. This is now a call to all DDs, to come forward, with a GR if possible, and put a stop to this, and revert the DAMs decision, which was a *STUPID* decision, removing my ability to do technical contributions to debian, while not solving the perceived problem of my mailing list contributions, which was only a consequence of the repeated agression on my technical capability to contribute to debian. Sam, i now ask you as DPL, to set up a social comitte or whatever, and investigate the behaviour of those who continuously have agressed me in this way, so they are also blamed for their responsability in this. It is really a shame, that debian is unable to solve such problems by discussion, and that a few people believe they are the masters of the debian infrastructure, and can make everything they want with it, in order to pursue personal vendettas. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 04:48:35PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: Hi all, Well, in the ever continuing witch hunt against me, i just noticed, while i was working on a patch fix for the debian kernel, that i have been removed from the alioth kernel team. There was nothing in the judgement of the DAMs which mandated this, and this is again the repetition of what has been happening since all this time. You don't think it has anything to do with your behaviour *after* the DAMs judgement? This is now a call to all DDs, to come forward, with a GR if possible, and put a stop to this, and revert the DAMs decision, which was a *STUPID* decision, removing my ability to do technical contributions to debian, while not solving the perceived problem of my mailing list contributions, which was only a consequence of the repeated agression on my technical capability to contribute to debian. You know, a contribution is generally regarded as something that adds value. Your repeated whining and finger pointer on the mailing lists is not contributing, it's called trolling. There was 2 mediation attempts between you and the debian-installer team. Both came to similar conclusions. When this didn't satisfy, the DAMs finally decided that you'd be temporarily suspended. Do you *really* think that all your repeated complaints will help your case? Really? Even *if* you would be the slighted part here, the best solution for us all is if you respected the suspension and stop your repeated off-topic posting. Spend some time either working on some other project (maybe you could contribute to Ubuntu's PowerPC-port instead?) for a while and return here after your suspension has ended. And when you do, please don't rehash this over and over again. That way you'll only end up having people more pissed. [snip] Regards: David -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Rime on my window (\ // ~ // Diamond-white roses of fire // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Beautiful hoar-frost (/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Sven Luther wrote: Hi all, Well, in the ever continuing witch hunt against me, i just noticed, while i was working on a patch fix for the debian kernel, that i have been removed from the alioth kernel team. Have you asked on debian-kernel what's going on? Regards, Joey -- Linux - the choice of a GNU generation. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sunday 27 May 2007 09:42:35 David Weinehall wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 04:48:35PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: Well, in the ever continuing witch hunt against me, i just noticed, while i was working on a patch fix for the debian kernel, that i have been removed from the alioth kernel team. [...] *STUPID* decision, removing my ability to do technical contributions to debian, while not solving the perceived problem of my mailing list contributions, which was only a consequence of the repeated agression on my technical capability to contribute to debian. You know, a contribution is generally regarded as something that adds value. I assume by this comment that, David, that your patches to the Debian kernel have been of much superior quality than Sven's? Or are you just whining and finger pointer on the mailing lists? [1] [1] Rhetorical questions intended to be thought-provoking, please don't reply. -- Wesley J. Landaker [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP FP: 4135 2A3B 4726 ACC5 9094 0097 F0A9 8A4C 4CD6 E3D2 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 05:42:35PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 04:48:35PM +0200, Sven Luther wrote: Hi all, Well, in the ever continuing witch hunt against me, i just noticed, while i was working on a patch fix for the debian kernel, that i have been removed from the alioth kernel team. There was nothing in the judgement of the DAMs which mandated this, and this is again the repetition of what has been happening since all this time. You don't think it has anything to do with your behaviour *after* the DAMs judgement? No, it has nothing to do with it. There is no justification for removing me from the the alioth kernel team, and even less in doing so silently. This is what started all this, over a year ago, the d-i team has removed me from the the d-i alioth team, while my mother was dying, without even trying to speak with me, later they did some stuff with the ftp-masters to stop me from uploading .udebs, and then i got banned from the lists, and then they restarted the expulsion provess. Each time they did one more level of agression while i was trying to be constructively contributing despite their agression. This is now a call to all DDs, to come forward, with a GR if possible, and put a stop to this, and revert the DAMs decision, which was a *STUPID* decision, removing my ability to do technical contributions to debian, while not solving the perceived problem of my mailing list contributions, which was only a consequence of the repeated agression on my technical capability to contribute to debian. You know, a contribution is generally regarded as something that adds value. Your repeated whining and finger pointer on the mailing lists is not contributing, it's called trolling. Exact, which is why i ask you to oppose the current way of dealing with me, which hurts my positive contibutions, and forcing me to only do negatively perceived ones. I ask thus the debian project, to revoke the DAMs supsension, to reinstate my d-i and kernel svn commit rights, and to remove the special case ban on my uploads, and let me be a normal DD. Then you can judge me, and see if i still have something to complain about or not. There was 2 mediation attempts between you and the debian-installer There where no mediations. The first took full one-sided position with the d-i folk, and put frans as judge of my good behaviour, while saying nothing about his behaviour. I objected to this, but in the end played the game, fixing over 30 bugs under the first mediation, and it only resulted in frans bashing me in bug reports, telling me to FUCK OFF, and finally asking the ftp-master to remove my .udeb upload right, *WHILE MY RIGHT TO UPLOAD .UDEBS WAS DEFINED IN THE FIRST MEDIATION* The second mediation, well, i challenge you to find something to reproach me during its period which would justify the 2 month ban, because half the DDs if not more have done much worse than i have during *THAT TIME*. team. Both came to similar conclusions. When this didn't satisfy, the DAMs finally decided that you'd be temporarily suspended. Do you Nope. When Frans or someone else saw my DPL candidacy, they decided to play mafioso politicks and ask for my expulsion. The DAMS have not followed their own procedure, have manipulated the requests, so the reality of what happened did not show up, used mails from over a year ago to justify the expulsion, and have not, despite numerous requests from me and others, provided fully signed and dated copies of the support mails. *really* think that all your repeated complaints will help your case? Well, what else will help me. As was the case a year ago, i was happily trying to fix a bug, and *DISCOVERED* i had been removed. The same happened for the expulsion, i made effort to go to FOSDEM, bring hardware for the debian booth, proposed a talk, so we could discuss the kernel future also with the d-i team, instead of the deaf-dialog that was happening, and they chose to expulse me. James Troup even spoke with me, fully knowing they would try to expulse me, and said nothing about it. The DDs have expressed a strong opposition to the expulsion of over 70:7, and the DAMs plainly ignored this. Really? Even *if* you would be the slighted part here, the best solution for us all is if you respected the suspension and stop your repeated off-topic posting. Spend some time either working on some other project (maybe you could contribute to Ubuntu's PowerPC-port instead?) for a while and return here after your suspension has ended. Right, what would that gain ? In a year, i would again be the subject of the harrasment and hurt from the d-i team or who know else, and at the minor opposition, they will again come up and say : see, he is doing it again. Also, each and everyone of the repeated complaints you critic was preceded and caused by another agression against me ? Don't you think it would be much more human and
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 05:56:38PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Hi all, Well, in the ever continuing witch hunt against me, i just noticed, while i was working on a patch fix for the debian kernel, that i have been removed from the alioth kernel team. Have you asked on debian-kernel what's going on? Yes i have, nobody answered, except Bastian Blank who has no clue about this. But should i really have to ask ? With at least Martin Michlmayr being part of the hateful expulsers, and with alioth admin right on the kernel team, there is very little chance that this did happen by 'mistake', and it is just a repetition of what has been done to me since over a year, and which no single other DD suffered. If it would be done to anyone but me, you would cry in outrage, then why not do so now ? Because there are too many hidden powers involved ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 05:26:08PM +0100, Stephen Gran wrote: This one time, at band camp, Sven Luther said: Hi all, Well, in the ever continuing witch hunt against me, i just noticed, while i was working on a patch fix for the debian kernel, that i have been removed from the alioth kernel team. There was nothing in the judgement of the DAMs which mandated this, and this is again the repetition of what has been happening since all this time. If you paid any attention, you would have noticed that the DAMs have no particular sway over alioth. It is not tied to any of the regular Debian infrastructure outside of the automatic creation of alioth accounts for DDs. There is no way the DAMs could have removed your Sure, my point was that this action was not a result of the DAMs decision, so it is another gratuitous agression against me, which means that instead of coding kernel patches, we have another flamewar which looses everyone's time. This is the exact schema of what has happened innumerable times since last year, where some guys have abused their debian powers to get the upper hand in their private vendetta, and i get all the blame. Again, i now ask that all the restrictions and punishments against me are lifted, and that my right to do positive contributions is restored, and that debian stops behaving 'unfairly' toward me, as both Wouter, the DAMs and both last DPLs have recognized the unfairness of this. access - it would have had to have been done by either an alioth admin or an admin member of the kernel team. Since I am fairly sure that the alioth admins have better things to do with their time (witness the last 36 hours on #alioth), if I were you, I would ask the people who are admins on the kernel team project, and stop tilting at imaginary windmills. well, the facts remain, and this is just one step more in a long series of agression and vengeance, of people who want to take away my capabilities to contribute to debian because of some private axe they want to grind with me. So, let's all together ensure that we don't pass another year in this mess, with ever increasing levels of disruption, and please let me just do positive constructive to debian. If you want to blame someone for these flamewars, blame those who are really responsible for it, who provoked and harrased me sinceover a year now, and refused each and every attempt at trying to solve it. Sam, as DPL i ask you, invite me to debconf, and let's have an in real life solution to this. Everyone except those opposing me, recognize that i am not the sole responsible of this mess, and that Debian has acted unfairly toward me. Let's be courageous, and find a solution to this which will not increment the hate and disruption, but be fair and just instead, in order for debian to again be something we are proud of. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 06:28:37PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Well, in the ever continuing witch hunt against me, i just noticed, while i was working on a patch fix for the debian kernel, that i have been removed from the alioth kernel team. Have you asked on debian-kernel what's going on? Yes i have, nobody answered, except Bastian Blank who has no clue about this. But should i really have to ask ? Yes. Simply because otherwise you cannot find out the reason. As if people would tell me the truth. I have to this day not received the dates of the expulsion support mails, and nobody of the expulsers has admitted that they restarted the expulsion process because i presented myself as DPL. Face it, Debian has become a place of corruption, lies, caloumny and shady dealings. If it would be done to anyone but me, you would cry in outrage, then why not do so now ? Because there are too many hidden powers involved ? Thanks for knowing how I would react. Maybe I should ask you whenever I'm in a situation where I don't know how to act. But you did not stop in telling me how i should behave, made your diagnostic of madness, and asked me to see a psychiatrist, right ? I belive you're wrong, fwiw. Then i would be happy to be shown wrong, but the facts have shown me that Debian has always gone out of its way to hurt me, so what do you expect ? Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Sven Luther wrote: If it would be done to anyone but me, you would cry in outrage, then why not do so now ? Because there are too many hidden powers involved ? Thanks for knowing how I would react. Maybe I should ask you whenever I'm in a situation where I don't know how to act. But you did not stop in telling me how i should behave, made your diagnostic of madness, and asked me to see a psychiatrist, right ? Did you notice that there is a differenence between should and would and that it may be more than just a few bits? I belive you're wrong, fwiw. Then i would be happy to be shown wrong, but the facts have shown me that Debian has always gone out of its way to hurt me, so what do you expect ? Nothing anymore. Regards, Joey -- Linux - the choice of a GNU generation. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 06:52:13PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: If it would be done to anyone but me, you would cry in outrage, then why not do so now ? Because there are too many hidden powers involved ? Thanks for knowing how I would react. Maybe I should ask you whenever I'm in a situation where I don't know how to act. But you did not stop in telling me how i should behave, made your diagnostic of madness, and asked me to see a psychiatrist, right ? Did you notice that there is a differenence between should and would and that it may be more than just a few bits? I belive you're wrong, fwiw. Then i would be happy to be shown wrong, but the facts have shown me that Debian has always gone out of its way to hurt me, so what do you expect ? Nothing anymore. For the record, i did ask on #debian-kernel, and got no reply, and when asked, Bastian Blank did say he didn't know who did it, and Stephan Gran, and Roland Mas, who are admining alioth, know, but don't want to say. When i asked Frederik Schuler about his support of the expulsion procedure, and tried to speak with him, he never responded to me, and in the so called kernel team, are Manoj and Martin Michlmayr, who both where among those wanting to stop me from candidating as DPL earlier on. You perfectly know what shady dealings go about in debian, since you are among those old timers who know what is going on, so don't try to hide behind nice words. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 06:52:49PM +0200, Mohammed Adnène Trojette wrote: On Sun, May 27, 2007, Sven Luther wrote: Hi all, Hi Sven, are you part of an organisation called GNAA? It is not nice to joke about your fellows hurt. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sunday 27 May 2007 10:52:49 Mohammed Adnène Trojette wrote: Hi Sven, are you part of an organisation called GNAA? Regardless of how you[1] feel about Sven, can you please stop trolling him? I know this was probably meant to be funny because it's a recent Debian mȇme, this is really just antagonizing Sven. [1] i.e. everyone -- Wesley J. Landaker [EMAIL PROTECTED] xmpp:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OpenPGP FP: 4135 2A3B 4726 ACC5 9094 0097 F0A9 8A4C 4CD6 E3D2 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 05:56:38PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: Sven Luther wrote: Hi all, Well, in the ever continuing witch hunt against me, i just noticed, while i was working on a patch fix for the debian kernel, that i have been removed from the alioth kernel team. Have you asked on debian-kernel what's going on? BTW, Martin, you ask me to ask, but did any of those of the other side of the witch hunt against me ever try to speak to me ? Did Andres speak to me about what he disliked in my behaviour before asking for my expulsion ? No, the first notice i had about it was when he quoted an out-of-context irc quote in last year's DPL debate ? Did Frederik, or Martin, speak to me in february, before supporting the expulsion, while i was silent on the lists because of the self-enforced ban ? No, they did not. Did any of those who posted hateful and agressive, and partly false and calomnious material as support for the expulsion ever try to speak to me about this ? No, they did not ? Did James Troup, or all the others among the hateful expulsers, or those who where aware of it try to speak with me in RL at FOSDEM ? Espcially James Troup in his position as DAM, and given the fact that i exchanged a few words with him a day after they sent the expulsion email to me which got lost on the debian mail server and only reached me a few days later when Joerg pinged me on irc ? No they did not. Did anyone who knew i proposed an in-face meeting during FOSDEM say, this is a good idea, let's try to arange this, and finally solve this issue and be happy coding ever after ? No they did not. Did anyone say, we missed the FOSDEM chance, let's not miss debconf, and arrange a discussion about it there and solve it ? No they did not. ... With one exception, and that is Joerg, who told me on the phone at the start of january that he would personally sit with Frans and me in a room at debconf, and try to solve the issue, but then a month or so later, when i candidated as DPL, and frans and co again tried to expulse me, while i had not posted a single mail except my DPL candidacy, it was forgotten ... So, you ask me to speak to people, to the selfsame people who chose to hurt me *AND MY DEBIAN WORK AND THUS OUR USERS*, and who did never try to speka to me, and who mostly chose to not reply to the numerous attempts at conciliation and resolution of this problem i made. What do you think i will gain by doing this ? And by the way : 16:30:30 svenl hi all. 16:30:38 svenl I wonder who removed me from the kernel alioth team ? ... 17:55:11 svenl waldi: do you know who removed me from the kernel alioth team ? 17:57:44 waldi nope No answer yet, and : ... 18:34:33 sgran svenl was removed by an admin member of the kernel project team 18:34:59 sgran I am not going to answer questions about who it was, that will need to be argued about on a different IRC channel 18:49:33 sgran I have already /msg'ed the person responsible, and told them to let you know it was them 18:49:47 sgran but they say they don't remember doing it ... So the person who did it is perfectly aware of the problem, and could have chosen to respond to this, but they chose not to. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
Hi all, On Sun, 27 May 2007, Sven Luther wrote: 17:55:11 svenl waldi: do you know who removed me from the kernel alioth team ? 17:57:44 waldi nope No answer yet, and : 18:34:59 sgran I am not going to answer questions about who it was, that will need to be argued about on a different IRC channel 18:49:33 sgran I have already /msg'ed the person responsible, and told them to let you know it was them 18:49:47 sgran but they say they don't remember doing it Both logs are related. Waldi removed you from the kernel team at the beginning of the month (9th May) together with two other persons: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] It doesn't look like a personal vendetta but rather a cleanup of the team membership based on contributions in the last monthes. Stop escalating your personal problems with the whole project. Cheers, PS: I don't disclose this for you (after all you managed to annoy the Alioth admins this afternoon by insinuating that we're part of a conspiracy and you even threatened to attack one of us in a French court) but for the other persons who are wondering what happened. -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 08:53:36PM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote: Hi all, On Sun, 27 May 2007, Sven Luther wrote: 17:55:11 svenl waldi: do you know who removed me from the kernel alioth team ? 17:57:44 waldi nope No answer yet, and : 18:34:59 sgran I am not going to answer questions about who it was, that will need to be argued about on a different IRC channel 18:49:33 sgran I have already /msg'ed the person responsible, and told them to let you know it was them 18:49:47 sgran but they say they don't remember doing it Both logs are related. Waldi removed you from the kernel team at the beginning of the month (9th May) together with two other persons: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] It doesn't look like a personal vendetta but rather a cleanup of the team membership based on contributions in the last monthes. Stop escalating your personal problems with the whole project. Notice that if Stefan had told me that, instead of hiding it, i would have asked Bastian, and it would have gone no further. Notice also, that it was not even me who asked on #alioth, and that things could have gotten much cleaner with transparency and communication. Finally, i just notice that the alioth admin team apparently saw no problem in filing the full log of the time i removed jonas from svn shortly before cebit 2006, which didn't lead to any consequence, and as thus directly contributed to witch hunt against me, so, two weights, two mesures ? And notice the difference, here responding transparently would have diffused a potential problem, while back then, the info was provided explicitly to contribute to the agression against me. PS: I don't disclose this for you (after all you managed to annoy the Alioth admins this afternoon by insinuating that we're part of a conspiracy and you even threatened to attack one of us in a French court) but for the other persons who are wondering what happened. How fun how things get out of hand, Stef mentioned that nothing could force him to reveal that information, and i made mention of a french law about computer database, and how it allowed anyone to ask for the data concerning him in any database, and that this could be used to obtain such information. Notice how you transform this into me threatening to attach you in a court, which is typical of how all this has gone. The most minor thing i say is taken out of proportion, and i get strongly bashed for it, and it becomes the summit of evilness, while all that is done to me is ignored or minimized. But then, i know since we spoke at the end of Solution Linux, that concience and honestity are not sentiments which you care all that much about. This does change nothing. I ask that my svn and kernel commit access be restored, that the DAM's decision to suspend me be lifted, and that the Debian project tries to find a honest and fair solution to this mess which has caused innumerable flamewars and angryness and loss of time since over a year now. Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 10:23:14PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote: * Raphael Hertzog ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [070527 20:56]: Hi all, On Sun, 27 May 2007, Sven Luther wrote: 17:55:11 svenl waldi: do you know who removed me from the kernel alioth team ? 17:57:44 waldi nope No answer yet, and : 18:34:59 sgran I am not going to answer questions about who it was, that will need to be argued about on a different IRC channel 18:49:33 sgran I have already /msg'ed the person responsible, and told them to let you know it was them 18:49:47 sgran but they say they don't remember doing it Both logs are related. Waldi removed you from the kernel team at the beginning of the month (9th May) together with two other persons: [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm rather shocked that waldi removed people from commit access without telling them - and even worse, without being able to remember it about 14 days later. If it is him, the fact that Stephen chose not to say who it was put some heavy doubt about these events, and given my experience, i am expecting the worse out of Debian ... Saddened, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Another level of agression ?
On Sun, May 27, 2007 at 11:03:50AM -0600, Wesley J. Landaker wrote: On Sunday 27 May 2007 10:52:49 Mohammed Adnène Trojette wrote: Hi Sven, are you part of an organisation called GNAA? Regardless of how you[1] feel about Sven, can you please stop trolling him? Damn, how fool was I. I was completely under the impression that *he* was the one trolling our lists for months. Makes me think, he can't be alone to generate all that flood, or he uses scripting. Maybe the latter given the very high redundancy of the content, wording and annoyance. -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··O[EMAIL PROTECTED] OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgptqmAQmLlNZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
